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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:07 am 
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Well this season kind of answers it, don't you think? Jenson, with a better car, is way behind Kimi in the standings.

Hopefully Jenson performs better next year with a car that's tailor-made for him, like the 2009 Brawn. And then he wins the championship, proving me wrong! :lol:

I personally would've loved it because they're my two favorite current drivers, but I think, with Kimi more used to F1 after a comeback year, he would beat Jenson. Unfortunately I don't think they would work well together because Jenson likes a neutral car while Kimi prefers to play with oversteer.

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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:35 am 
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Teddy007 wrote:
SilverstoneRegular wrote:
Jenson V's The World!!!

Sometimes I feel this is the way "How would this guy do against this driver".

Well considering in Australia he out right beat Lewis fair and square no excuses, not car setup or nothing - Lewis's face on the podium said it all and he wouldnt of been happy even with 2nd.

Although at times he has been well outplayed buy Lewis there has been moments where he was only a tad off his pace not even .1 of a second.

I cant guess how he would do against kimi, I cant guess how well he would do against Alonso. Personally I would feel he would do better against those two compared to him vs Lewis. Lewis will end Mclaren 2-1 against Button. And I do feel for Button he has already admitted that Lewis has been the fastest team mate he has ever had - thats big words coming from an F1 driver. Lewis is considered top 3 talent of F1 in this generation. The next bunch fighting for 4th would certainly have Button in the fight. Shame he has had so many problems in setup/car this season because last year the car felt good just not matching the pace of the RBR. He was rarely complaining last season and look how well he did.

When the car feels good he can fight Lewis - the guy he says is the best driver he has gone against. Kimi though has been doing a consistent job in a car capable of fighting for podiums nearly every race but between Kimi and Gros both drivers have not done a perfect job this season and even Gros has had the pace to beat Kimi.


the car can fight for podium in every race??? you must be kidding right?? it almost looks unreal after 2nd half of the season kimi managed to collect 1 podium in spa with kers failure, and consistently finished top5 as the car was outdeveloped by cars in front due to wrong development path taken on passive DRS. Only recently the car was updated with coanda exhaust and Kimi won a race with it.

kimi done well considering he kept losing positions after each pit due to team 's blunder strategies and slow pit stops. And also the team unable to choose the right tyre compound for strategies had hurt kimi badly.
really tired of people not giving credit when its due to Kimi. of course you are not aware of the team racing opearation side error as Kimi nvr blame them unlike others.


The car only work well when the track temperature is as high as 35 d.celcius above. Unlike mclaren that are competitive in every races so far.


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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:35 am 
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chinki wrote:
Johnston wrote:
lamo wrote:
Bakerking31 wrote:
Kimi, just because he seems more consistent. But I like both drivers, would make a nice lineup.


Its a shame its not the Mclaren line up next year, seems like a solid team and if Jenson went off song like 2009 and 2012 you know Kimi will be there to fly the flag. The worry for Mclaren fans is Jenson going off song and Perez not being up to the job and a race winning car going to waste.



Just because you say it loads doesn't mean it'll come true.

Code:
Jenson Button                 5    7     7   Ret   2    5     8    5      3
Brazil Rubens Barrichello     6    10    1    7    1    6     7    8    4


5 to 3 When they both finished. So I guess RB went off the boil too then.

Or will you finallyrealise the other cars over took them in the development race.

So Barrichello is now the barometer of how good Jenson should have been?? I remember Jenson himself recently commenting that this year has been like the 2nd half of 2009 where he could not get the car working which is pretty much what lamo said. You seriously dont believe that Jenson extracted the maximum out of his car this year or in the 2nd half of 2009.


Maybe not the Max, who knows what the max was? but you say he dropped off yet he still consistently beat his team mate. His "Dropping off" also coincides with other teams bringing upgrades. Something Brawn didn't have much off. They were sticking bits on with Mastic. (Funny how HRT get lamented for gluing together a wing but Brawn were doing basically the same thing)

As for a barometer, well isn't the first person you judge a driver of his team mate? How can A driver "Drop off" but still consistently beat his team mate, one who for the first half followed him home or beat him him 5/7 races where they both finished in the first half. Any one sided dropping off in comparison would have seen RB beating him more often than not .

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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:40 am 
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Teddy007 wrote:
SilverstoneRegular wrote:
Jenson V's The World!!!

Sometimes I feel this is the way "How would this guy do against this driver".

Well considering in Australia he out right beat Lewis fair and square no excuses, not car setup or nothing - Lewis's face on the podium said it all and he wouldnt of been happy even with 2nd.

Although at times he has been well outplayed buy Lewis there has been moments where he was only a tad off his pace not even .1 of a second.

I cant guess how he would do against kimi, I cant guess how well he would do against Alonso. Personally I would feel he would do better against those two compared to him vs Lewis. Lewis will end Mclaren 2-1 against Button. And I do feel for Button he has already admitted that Lewis has been the fastest team mate he has ever had - thats big words coming from an F1 driver. Lewis is considered top 3 talent of F1 in this generation. The next bunch fighting for 4th would certainly have Button in the fight. Shame he has had so many problems in setup/car this season because last year the car felt good just not matching the pace of the RBR. He was rarely complaining last season and look how well he did.

When the car feels good he can fight Lewis - the guy he says is the best driver he has gone against. Kimi though has been doing a consistent job in a car capable of fighting for podiums nearly every race but between Kimi and Gros both drivers have not done a perfect job this season and even Gros has had the pace to beat Kimi.


Well said but I think we should also take into account that this was Kimi's comeback season and hence his first experience with the Pirelli's and therefore his performance in a car that has been, for most part of the season, the fifth or sixth best car on the grid is commendable.

On the other hand, Jenson has been driving a car that is right up there with the red bulls in terms of pace, and still I am not convinced that he has been extracting the maximum out of his car.

Moreover, if we let Kimi off for his performances during the first half of the season (that is the least we can do for someone who has been away for 2 years) and only look at the second half, then we can easily see that Kimi has literally destroyed Grosjean both in Qualifying and during the races and he has been quicker by an average of 3 tenths per lap. So, saying that Grosjean has matched Kimi for pace is inaccurate, I believe.


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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:09 am 
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Really astute views and assessements, as expected.
Seems that KR and JB would be close, of course.
Doubts about JB sometimes not being able to identify a chassis problem, that KR may be better at this (Senna88).
One of the reasons for my question was highlighted by Moby: we can't measure Kimi's pace in 2012; and another by Piket87: JB in better car is way behind KR in the 2012 championship.
Piket87 also raises the difference between the two drivers: KR likes oversteer, JB understeer. I fing this so interesting, as both are among the smoothest of all drivers.

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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:11 am 
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Based purely on this year's form, I don't think Jenson would stand a chance.

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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:18 am 
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I like both of them, good racer both of them. But I think Kimi would have slight edge over Button.


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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:22 am 
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OF course Kimi. Jenson goes AWOL for long periods and is NOWHERE when he does that. When Kimi's slow (like at Ferrari) he at least still finishes in the points, usually only a place or two behind his teammate.


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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:14 am 
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POBRatings wrote:
Really astute views and assessements, as expected.
Seems that KR and JB would be close, of course.
Doubts about JB sometimes not being able to identify a chassis problem, that KR may be better at this (Senna88).
One of the reasons for my question was highlighted by Moby: we can't measure Kimi's pace in 2012; and another by Piket87: JB in better car is way behind KR in the 2012 championship.
Piket87 also raises the difference between the two drivers: KR likes oversteer, JB understeer. I fing this so interesting, as both are among the smoothest of all drivers.


its normal for jenson but weird for Kimi seriously.

Normally those oversteer lover like schumi, lewis etc are very rough, but kimi is surprisingly smooth.


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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:18 am 
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Think it would be nip and tuck.

On their day they are unbeatable and both are clockwork consistent when they have a car to their liking.

I suspect a duo of Jenson and Kimi would score a similar amount of points to a duo of Fernando and Lewis, but would win less races.

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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:35 am 
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Senna88 wrote:
Kimi, as Jenson is not consistent enough particurly when the car is not exactly to his liking when others can still usually get decent results (Alonso,Hamilton and Kimi as examples), reckon it would be very close though as when he is on song Jenson can match the very best.



you know, without that comma (marked in red) whole sentence has an opposite meaning ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:35 am 
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Jenson, Kimi isn't the fastest guy on the grid that people have been touting for years, he may have the edge (just) on overtaking ability (and certainly bigger balls) but Jenson is just as quick with much better racecraft.

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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:05 pm 
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lunatic wrote:
Jenson, Kimi isn't the fastest guy on the grid that people have been touting for years, he may have the edge (just) on overtaking ability (and certainly bigger balls) but Jenson is just as quick with much better racecraft.


Fastest guy on the grid or not, Kimi is hands down, quicker than Jenson. And would you care to elaborate how Jenson has "much better racecraft"?


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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:40 pm 
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lunatic wrote:
Jenson, Kimi isn't the fastest guy on the grid that people have been touting for years, he may have the edge (just) on overtaking ability (and certainly bigger balls) but Jenson is just as quick with much better racecraft.


well he certainly is. Look at those lap records on kimi 's hand =P

and no, in terms of overtaking and race craft, button isnt on kimi league at all.


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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:45 pm 
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H-Holloway wrote:
Think it would be nip and tuck.

On their day they are unbeatable and both are clockwork consistent when they have a car to their liking.

I suspect a duo of Jenson and Kimi would score a similar amount of points to a duo of Fernando and Lewis, but would win less races.


This year the E20 wasnt build with kimi in mind, and kimi has been suffering power steering issues all season long. And yet he drove over the problem and be as consistent. If kimi got the car to his liking just like his mclaren days, he will destroy the grid and challenge for title just like 2003 when he losez out to michael by mere 2 points despite driving an 2002 chassis while others eventually switch to new 1.


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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:47 pm 
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NvrDieYoung wrote:
lunatic wrote:
Jenson, Kimi isn't the fastest guy on the grid that people have been touting for years, he may have the edge (just) on overtaking ability (and certainly bigger balls) but Jenson is just as quick with much better racecraft.


well he certainly is. Look at those lap records on kimi 's hand =P

and no, in terms of overtaking and race craft, button isnt on kimi league at all.
Point to some amaze balls racecraft from Kimi if you would be so kind, and he is nowhere near the fastest guy, he was equalled by Massa (even beaten) for outright pace, and for outright speed he is beaten by ROGRO, Vettel and Hamilton are faster drivers than Kimi and if he ever ends up team mates with either of them i'd bet my left nut he would be slower, not everyone buys into this Kimi is a driving god myth ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:55 pm 
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lunatic wrote:
NvrDieYoung wrote:
lunatic wrote:
Jenson, Kimi isn't the fastest guy on the grid that people have been touting for years, he may have the edge (just) on overtaking ability (and certainly bigger balls) but Jenson is just as quick with much better racecraft.


well he certainly is. Look at those lap records on kimi 's hand =P

and no, in terms of overtaking and race craft, button isnt on kimi league at all.
Point to some amaze balls racecraft from Kimi if you would be so kind, and he is nowhere near the fastest guy, he was equalled by Massa (even beaten) for outright pace, and for outright speed he is beaten by ROGRO, Vettel and Hamilton are faster drivers than Kimi and if he ever ends up team mates with either of them i'd bet my left nut he would be slower, not everyone buys into this Kimi is a driving god myth ;)


of course, because people like to generalize his ability in his bad season.

i hv proof though. In germany Q1 before the rain, kimi did a fastest lap on hard tyre while others on soft couldn't match it. He just need time to regain his qualifying pace =P and it seems he is getting there from race to race. Beaten by Rogro?? Thats when he did mistake in Q3, prior to that in Q1 and Q2 he been always faster. And during the race, Romain was soundly beaten by kimi 's pace despite him starting in front. When Romain was behind, he is finished LOL. Your so call faster driver was meaure in quali alone, and dont forget lewis and vettel are both driving rocket =)

His driving in Hungary testified his ability though, making fastest lap on worn out tyre than those pitted for fresh rubber allow him to run longer and jump the car in front during pit stop window despite having kers issues.

I guess you are too busy to watch the races =P


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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:25 pm 
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I missed this thread completely. This is probably the one team lineup I'd most like to see in F1.

I think they would be very close and a lot would depend on who the car suits. They both seem to have very similar weaknesses, but I think Kimi struggles to a lesser extent than Jenson does when in unfavorable situations.

Qualifying seems to be a weakness for both, but I suspect it's not as much of a weakness for Jenson as some might think. Really, he has been made to look bad by arguably the fastest driver in F1. Grosjean, on the other hand, has outpaced Kimi at fairly frequent intervals, and we have no idea how fast Grosjean is compared to the rest of the field. Kimi also didn't light it up against Massa either. So I have to give Button the benefit of the doubt in this area.

But the area where Kimi would really have a big advantage is the way he can adjust when his car handling or setup isn't ideal. Kimi never stopped complaining about power steering earlier this year, but he got on with the job anyway and scored podiums. Jenson, however, showed this year he can really struggle. Sure, it's rare for Jenson to struggle for long periods, but through the last few years, there's always been the odd race where he's arrived, felt uncomfortable with the car, and has appeared to be two or three tenths slower as a result.

But both are pretty fast drivers with absolutely superb racecraft. Kimi sometimes seems a little hesitant to make passes, but he can also pull off some amazing passes. His pass round the outside of Hulkenberg in Turn 2 might be the best of the season. Button has always been underrated in this area, he's one of the best passers in F1 and I'm not sure how people don't recognise that.

Good thread, POB :thumbup:

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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:29 pm 
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NvrDieYoung wrote:
lunatic wrote:
NvrDieYoung wrote:
lunatic wrote:
Jenson, Kimi isn't the fastest guy on the grid that people have been touting for years, he may have the edge (just) on overtaking ability (and certainly bigger balls) but Jenson is just as quick with much better racecraft.


well he certainly is. Look at those lap records on kimi 's hand =P

and no, in terms of overtaking and race craft, button isnt on kimi league at all.
Point to some amaze balls racecraft from Kimi if you would be so kind, and he is nowhere near the fastest guy, he was equalled by Massa (even beaten) for outright pace, and for outright speed he is beaten by ROGRO, Vettel and Hamilton are faster drivers than Kimi and if he ever ends up team mates with either of them i'd bet my left nut he would be slower, not everyone buys into this Kimi is a driving god myth ;)


of course, because people like to generalize his ability in his bad season.

i hv proof though. In germany Q1 before the rain, kimi did a fastest lap on hard tyre while others on soft couldn't match it. He just need time to regain his qualifying pace =P and it seems he is getting there from race to race. Beaten by Rogro?? Thats when he did mistake in Q3, prior to that in Q1 and Q2 he been always faster. And during the race, Romain was soundly beaten by kimi 's pace despite him starting in front. When Romain was behind, he is finished LOL. Your so call faster driver was meaure in quali alone, and dont forget lewis and vettel are both driving rocket =)

His driving in Hungary testified his ability though, making fastest lap on worn out tyre than those pitted for fresh rubber allow him to run longer and jump the car in front during pit stop window despite having kers issues.

I guess you are too busy to watch the races =P
Kimi had a rocket at the begining of the season, in fact it was the fastest car, he made nothing out of it, even now that car is fast, its just the pilots are not as fast as the car is capable of going ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:34 pm 
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benmc wrote:
I missed this thread completely. This is probably the one team lineup I'd most like to see in F1.

I think they would be very close and a lot would depend on who the car suits. They both seem to have very similar weaknesses, but I think Kimi struggles to a lesser extent than Jenson does when in unfavorable situations.

Qualifying seems to be a weakness for both, but I suspect it's not as much of a weakness for Jenson as some might think. Really, he has been made to look bad by arguably the fastest driver in F1. Grosjean, on the other hand, has outpaced Kimi at fairly frequent intervals, and we have no idea how fast Grosjean is compared to the rest of the field. Kimi also didn't light it up against Massa either. So I have to give Button the benefit of the doubt in this area.

But the area where Kimi would really have a big advantage is the way he can adjust when his car handling or setup isn't ideal. Kimi never stopped complaining about power steering earlier this year, but he got on with the job anyway and scored podiums. Jenson, however, showed this year he can really struggle. Sure, it's rare for Jenson to struggle for long periods, but through the last few years, there's always been the odd race where he's arrived, felt uncomfortable with the car, and has appeared to be two or three tenths slower as a result.

But both are pretty fast drivers with absolutely superb racecraft. Kimi sometimes seems a little hesitant to make passes, but he can also pull off some amazing passes. His pass round the outside of Hulkenberg in Turn 2 might be the best of the season. Button has always been underrated in this area, he's one of the best passers in F1 and I'm not sure how people don't recognise that.

Good thread, POB :thumbup:


Kimi has proved himself to be terrific qualifier when he often overfueled by the team most notably Monza 2005, he went on outqualified Montoya despite carrying 10x lap more fuel. He had to due to multiple engine failures that cost him grid penalties.

Clinch 3 poles in 2006 when the car wasnt competitive.

consider he been struggling with the car development path during his ferrari years (accoridng to michael), i'd think kimi did ok to cope with. In 2009 he drag that F60 and qualified P2 in Monaco testified he shoved off the rust in 2008.

Kimi so far has been outqualify by grosjean when he did mistake in Q3 which happen to be alot often but gradually improving. He always maanged to go through Q1 with hard compound while Romain needs softer compound. Expect improvement on next year.

agree with the rest of your assessment though, its unfair to measure button during his struggling season. After-all he did trash lewis in 2011.


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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:34 pm 
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lunatic wrote:
i'd bet my left nut he would be slower, not everyone buys into this Kimi is a driving god myth ;)


Aoh that will hurt :) Is that for the mods to collect?


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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:37 pm 
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[quote="POBRatings"]Really astute views and assessements, as expected.
Seems that KR and JB would be close, of course.

Doubts about JB sometimes not being able to identify a chassis problem, that KR may be better at this (Senna88).
One of the reasons for my question was highlighted by Moby: we can't measure Kimi's pace in 2012; and another by Piket87: JB in better car is way behind KR in the 2012 championship.
Piket87 also raises the difference between the two drivers: KR likes oversteer, JB understeer. I fing this so interesting, as both are among the smoothest of all drivers.[/quote]
Lol, why? because a forum of armchair experts say so? FFS this is madness.

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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:46 pm 
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lunatic wrote:
NvrDieYoung wrote:
lunatic wrote:
NvrDieYoung wrote:
lunatic wrote:
Jenson, Kimi isn't the fastest guy on the grid that people have been touting for years, he may have the edge (just) on overtaking ability (and certainly bigger balls) but Jenson is just as quick with much better racecraft.


well he certainly is. Look at those lap records on kimi 's hand =P

and no, in terms of overtaking and race craft, button isnt on kimi league at all.
Point to some amaze balls racecraft from Kimi if you would be so kind, and he is nowhere near the fastest guy, he was equalled by Massa (even beaten) for outright pace, and for outright speed he is beaten by ROGRO, Vettel and Hamilton are faster drivers than Kimi and if he ever ends up team mates with either of them i'd bet my left nut he would be slower, not everyone buys into this Kimi is a driving god myth ;)


of course, because people like to generalize his ability in his bad season.

i hv proof though. In germany Q1 before the rain, kimi did a fastest lap on hard tyre while others on soft couldn't match it. He just need time to regain his qualifying pace =P and it seems he is getting there from race to race. Beaten by Rogro?? Thats when he did mistake in Q3, prior to that in Q1 and Q2 he been always faster. And during the race, Romain was soundly beaten by kimi 's pace despite him starting in front. When Romain was behind, he is finished LOL. Your so call faster driver was meaure in quali alone, and dont forget lewis and vettel are both driving rocket =)

His driving in Hungary testified his ability though, making fastest lap on worn out tyre than those pitted for fresh rubber allow him to run longer and jump the car in front during pit stop window despite having kers issues.

I guess you are too busy to watch the races =P
Kimi had a rocket at the begining of the season, in fact it was the fastest car, he made nothing out of it, even now that car is fast, its just the pilots are not as fast as the car is capable of going ;)


you dont get the logic aint you??? one simply does not went faster on worn out tyre than fresh tyre despite having the fastest car in which the E20 wasnt =)

Not in technical standpoint of view. The car is too gentle on tyre, thats the secret behind the low tyre degradation but compromise the quali greatly. No way in hell it is as fast as the fastest out there. Most front running team opt for coanda exhaust earlier in the season to generate much higher downforce something that Lotus didnt followed. They rely on lottery race pace when the track is extreme hot, unlike the mclaren, rbr and ferrari that can be competitive in all conditions. The lottery advantage gone since Spa, however kimi remain pushing to the limit and score a podium in Spa and finish the race consistenly in top5 and top6. They only incorporate the new exhaust lately, and kimi went on to win a race in abu dhabi =)

Thats just silly argument from those haters. When fernando drove a great race, people tend to give credit to the driver rather than the car. When Kimi did an amazing race in bahrain and let down by team strategy people praise the car rather than the driver when his teammate starting in front was caught up by kimi starting 11th =p One thing they didnt realize, the amazing pace of E20 has always shown by Kimi but the car get all the credit which is fine. But dont take advantage on the fact that kimi doesnt like to show off unlike others and bash him for no reason.


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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:55 pm 
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NvrDieYoung wrote:
benmc wrote:
I missed this thread completely. This is probably the one team lineup I'd most like to see in F1.

I think they would be very close and a lot would depend on who the car suits. They both seem to have very similar weaknesses, but I think Kimi struggles to a lesser extent than Jenson does when in unfavorable situations.

Qualifying seems to be a weakness for both, but I suspect it's not as much of a weakness for Jenson as some might think. Really, he has been made to look bad by arguably the fastest driver in F1. Grosjean, on the other hand, has outpaced Kimi at fairly frequent intervals, and we have no idea how fast Grosjean is compared to the rest of the field. Kimi also didn't light it up against Massa either. So I have to give Button the benefit of the doubt in this area.

But the area where Kimi would really have a big advantage is the way he can adjust when his car handling or setup isn't ideal. Kimi never stopped complaining about power steering earlier this year, but he got on with the job anyway and scored podiums. Jenson, however, showed this year he can really struggle. Sure, it's rare for Jenson to struggle for long periods, but through the last few years, there's always been the odd race where he's arrived, felt uncomfortable with the car, and has appeared to be two or three tenths slower as a result.

But both are pretty fast drivers with absolutely superb racecraft. Kimi sometimes seems a little hesitant to make passes, but he can also pull off some amazing passes. His pass round the outside of Hulkenberg in Turn 2 might be the best of the season. Button has always been underrated in this area, he's one of the best passers in F1 and I'm not sure how people don't recognise that.

Good thread, POB :thumbup:


Kimi has proved himself to be terrific qualifier when he often overfueled by the team most notably Monza 2005, he went on outqualified Montoya despite carrying 10x lap more fuel. He had to due to multiple engine failures that cost him grid penalties.

Clinch 3 poles in 2006 when the car wasnt competitive.

consider he been struggling with the car development path during his ferrari years (accoridng to michael), i'd think kimi did ok to cope with. In 2009 he drag that F60 and qualified P2 in Monaco testified he shoved off the rust in 2008.

Kimi so far has been outqualify by grosjean when he did mistake in Q3 which happen to be alot often but gradually improving. He always maanged to go through Q1 with hard compound while Romain needs softer compound. Expect improvement on next year.

agree with the rest of your assessment though, its unfair to measure button during his struggling season. After-all he did trash lewis in 2011.


I agree that Kimi was very fast at McLaren, but since he moved to Ferrari he's become a bit of a form driver, basically for the exact reasons you mentioned. Kimi has struggled to an extent when the car development path has worked against him, but like you say he does an OK job of coping with it, much better than Jenson does. It's a weak area for Kimi, but not a major weakness. I haven't analysed Kimi's qualifying as closely as you have, but I'll look out for said improvement.

I wouldn't say Jenson thrashed Lewis in 2011, but he definitely showed he is more than capable of leading McLaren's fight for championships. Button's struggles this year were basically a perfect storm of poor driving, bad luck and unprecedented circumstances. The field was perhaps the most closely-matched F1 has ever seen, and he was unlucky with the strategy in Spain, the first lap accident in Monaco and the yellow flags in Silverstone Q1. As you say, it's unfair to judge him on that. McLaren will be just fine next year, they have a proven talent and WDC alongside a driver who is raw but has demonstrated winning pace.

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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:58 pm 
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benmc wrote:
NvrDieYoung wrote:
benmc wrote:
I missed this thread completely. This is probably the one team lineup I'd most like to see in F1.

I think they would be very close and a lot would depend on who the car suits. They both seem to have very similar weaknesses, but I think Kimi struggles to a lesser extent than Jenson does when in unfavorable situations.

Qualifying seems to be a weakness for both, but I suspect it's not as much of a weakness for Jenson as some might think. Really, he has been made to look bad by arguably the fastest driver in F1. Grosjean, on the other hand, has outpaced Kimi at fairly frequent intervals, and we have no idea how fast Grosjean is compared to the rest of the field. Kimi also didn't light it up against Massa either. So I have to give Button the benefit of the doubt in this area.

But the area where Kimi would really have a big advantage is the way he can adjust when his car handling or setup isn't ideal. Kimi never stopped complaining about power steering earlier this year, but he got on with the job anyway and scored podiums. Jenson, however, showed this year he can really struggle. Sure, it's rare for Jenson to struggle for long periods, but through the last few years, there's always been the odd race where he's arrived, felt uncomfortable with the car, and has appeared to be two or three tenths slower as a result.

But both are pretty fast drivers with absolutely superb racecraft. Kimi sometimes seems a little hesitant to make passes, but he can also pull off some amazing passes. His pass round the outside of Hulkenberg in Turn 2 might be the best of the season. Button has always been underrated in this area, he's one of the best passers in F1 and I'm not sure how people don't recognise that.

Good thread, POB :thumbup:


Kimi has proved himself to be terrific qualifier when he often overfueled by the team most notably Monza 2005, he went on outqualified Montoya despite carrying 10x lap more fuel. He had to due to multiple engine failures that cost him grid penalties.

Clinch 3 poles in 2006 when the car wasnt competitive.

consider he been struggling with the car development path during his ferrari years (accoridng to michael), i'd think kimi did ok to cope with. In 2009 he drag that F60 and qualified P2 in Monaco testified he shoved off the rust in 2008.

Kimi so far has been outqualify by grosjean when he did mistake in Q3 which happen to be alot often but gradually improving. He always maanged to go through Q1 with hard compound while Romain needs softer compound. Expect improvement on next year.

agree with the rest of your assessment though, its unfair to measure button during his struggling season. After-all he did trash lewis in 2011.


I agree that Kimi was very fast at McLaren, but since he moved to Ferrari he's become a bit of a form driver, basically for the exact reasons you mentioned. Kimi has struggled to an extent when the car development path has worked against him, but like you say he does an OK job of coping with it, much better than Jenson does. It's a weak area for Kimi, but not a major weakness. I haven't analysed Kimi's qualifying as closely as you have, but I'll look out for said improvement.

I wouldn't say Jenson thrashed Lewis in 2011, but he definitely showed he is more than capable of leading McLaren's fight for championships. Button's struggles this year were basically a perfect storm of poor driving, bad luck and unprecedented circumstances. The field was perhaps the most closely-matched F1 has ever seen, and he was unlucky with the strategy in Spain, the first lap accident in Monaco and the yellow flags in Silverstone Q1. As you say, it's unfair to judge him on that. McLaren will be just fine next year, they have a proven talent and WDC alongside a driver who is raw but has demonstrated winning pace.


haha, im not sure about perez, but if mclaren get everything right for jenson, he will be a threat!! cheers for 2013


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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:02 pm 
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[/quote]

well he certainly is. Look at those lap records on kimi 's hand =P

and no, in terms of overtaking and race craft, button isnt on kimi league at all.[/quote]Point to some amaze balls racecraft from Kimi if you would be so kind, and he is nowhere near the fastest guy, he was equalled by Massa (even beaten) for outright pace, and for outright speed he is beaten by ROGRO, Vettel and Hamilton are faster drivers than Kimi and if he ever ends up team mates with either of them i'd bet my left nut he would be slower, not everyone buys into this Kimi is a driving god myth ;)[/quote]

of course, because people like to generalize his ability in his bad season.

i hv proof though. In germany Q1 before the rain, kimi did a fastest lap on hard tyre while others on soft couldn't match it. He just need time to regain his qualifying pace =P and it seems he is getting there from race to race. Beaten by Rogro?? Thats when he did mistake in Q3, prior to that in Q1 and Q2 he been always faster. And during the race, Romain was soundly beaten by kimi 's pace despite him starting in front. When Romain was behind, he is finished LOL. Your so call faster driver was meaure in quali alone, and dont forget lewis and vettel are both driving rocket =)

His driving in Hungary testified his ability though, making fastest lap on worn out tyre than those pitted for fresh rubber allow him to run longer and jump the car in front during pit stop window despite having kers issues.

I guess you are too busy to watch the races =P[/quote]Kimi had a rocket at the begining of the season, in fact it was the fastest car, he made nothing out of it, even now that car is fast, its just the pilots are not as fast as the car is capable of going ;)[/quote]

you dont get the logic aint you??? one simply does not went faster on worn out tyre than fresh tyre despite having the fastest car in which the E20 wasnt =)

Not in technical standpoint of view. The car is too gentle on tyre, thats the secret behind the low tyre degradation but compromise the quali greatly. No way in hell it is as fast as the fastest out there. Most front running team opt for coanda exhaust earlier in the season to generate much higher downforce something that Lotus didnt followed. They rely on lottery race pace when the track is extreme hot, unlike the mclaren, rbr and ferrari that can be competitive in all conditions. The lottery advantage gone since Spa, however kimi remain pushing to the limit and score a podium in Spa and finish the race consistenly in top5 and top6. They only incorporate the new exhaust lately, and kimi went on to win a race in abu dhabi =)

Thats just silly argument from those haters. When fernando drove a great race, people tend to give credit to the driver rather than the car. When Kimi did an amazing race in bahrain and let down by team strategy people praise the car rather than the driver when his teammate starting in front was caught up by kimi starting 11th =p One thing they didnt realize, the amazing pace of E20 has always shown by Kimi but the car get all the credit which is fine. But dont take advantage on the fact that kimi doesnt like to show off unlike others and bash him for no reason.[/quote]Well the begining of the season told a different story, that Lotus was consistantly the fastest through the speed trap and was also handling like it was on rails, Kimi has done a good job this year and i don't deny it, but he hasn't extracted the best out of it which a few others on the grid would have been able to do, this will go round in circles, i wont change my view and you are a Kimi fan and as such one of the die hard elite, i gave up trying to argue with Kimi fans years ago, they only watch F1 with blinkers on ;) also, funny that as soon as anyone says anything slightly negative about kimi they intantly get branded as a hater :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:07 pm 
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NvrDieYoung wrote:
lunatic wrote:

Well the begining of the season told a different story, that Lotus was consistantly the fastest through the speed trap and was also handling like it was on rails, Kimi has done a good job this year and i don't deny it, but he hasn't extracted the best out of it which a few others on the grid would have been able to do, this will go round in circles, i wont change my view and you are a Kimi fan and as such one of the die hard elite, i gave up trying to argue with Kimi fans years ago, they only watch F1 with blinkers on ;)[/color] also, funny that as soon as anyone says anything slightly negative about kimi they intantly get branded as a hater :lol:


hahahaha, rbr 's speed trap is by far the worst, so i suppose they are tortoise -like slow then??

We brand some1 as hater when they didn't provide facts on their bashing post.


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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:17 pm 
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Kimi is already beating Jenson in a slower car.


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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:26 pm 
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becker wrote:
Kimi is already beating Jenson in a slower car.


Ya, end of story :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:29 pm 
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becker wrote:
Kimi is already beating Jenson in a slower car.


And Hamilton :thumbup: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:34 pm 
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NvrDieYoung wrote:
NvrDieYoung wrote:
lunatic wrote:

Well the begining of the season told a different story, that Lotus was consistantly the fastest through the speed trap and was also handling like it was on rails, Kimi has done a good job this year and i don't deny it, but he hasn't extracted the best out of it which a few others on the grid would have been able to do, this will go round in circles, i wont change my view and you are a Kimi fan and as such one of the die hard elite, i gave up trying to argue with Kimi fans years ago, they only watch F1 with blinkers on ;)[/color] also, funny that as soon as anyone says anything slightly negative about kimi they intantly get branded as a hater :lol:


hahahaha, rbr 's speed trap is by far the worst, so i suppose they are tortoise -like slow then??

We brand some1 as hater when they didn't provide facts on their bashing post.
Please point to where i'm bashing? you Kimi fans are just too sensitive and if people dont bow down and hail him like you lot do we get branded as haters or bashers, as i said before, Kimi fans watch races with blinkers on. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:39 pm 
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lunatic wrote:
NvrDieYoung wrote:
NvrDieYoung wrote:
lunatic wrote:

Well the begining of the season told a different story, that Lotus was consistantly the fastest through the speed trap and was also handling like it was on rails, Kimi has done a good job this year and i don't deny it, but he hasn't extracted the best out of it which a few others on the grid would have been able to do, this will go round in circles, i wont change my view and you are a Kimi fan and as such one of the die hard elite, i gave up trying to argue with Kimi fans years ago, they only watch F1 with blinkers on ;)[/color] also, funny that as soon as anyone says anything slightly negative about kimi they intantly get branded as a hater :lol:


hahahaha, rbr 's speed trap is by far the worst, so i suppose they are tortoise -like slow then??

We brand some1 as hater when they didn't provide facts on their bashing post.
Please point to where i'm bashing? you Kimi fans are just too sensitive and if people dont bow down and hail him like you lot do we get branded as haters or bashers, as i said before, Kimi fans watch races with blinkers on. ;)
I'm not going to even bother getting into a row with a Kimi fan just because you can't except somebody elses point of view, there is 215 pages of excuses trying to justify why Kimi isn't doing as well as he could be and as such i try and avoid that thread.

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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:56 pm 
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lunatic wrote:
lunatic wrote:
NvrDieYoung wrote:
NvrDieYoung wrote:
lunatic wrote:

Well the begining of the season told a different story, that Lotus was consistantly the fastest through the speed trap and was also handling like it was on rails, Kimi has done a good job this year and i don't deny it, but he hasn't extracted the best out of it which a few others on the grid would have been able to do, this will go round in circles, i wont change my view and you are a Kimi fan and as such one of the die hard elite, i gave up trying to argue with Kimi fans years ago, they only watch F1 with blinkers on ;)[/color] also, funny that as soon as anyone says anything slightly negative about kimi they intantly get branded as a hater :lol:


hahahaha, rbr 's speed trap is by far the worst, so i suppose they are tortoise -like slow then??

We brand some1 as hater when they didn't provide facts on their bashing post.
Please point to where i'm bashing? you Kimi fans are just too sensitive and if people dont bow down and hail him like you lot do we get branded as haters or bashers, as i said before, Kimi fans watch races with blinkers on. ;)
I'm not going to even bother getting into a row with a Kimi fan just because you can't except somebody elses point of view, there is 215 pages of excuses trying to justify why Kimi isn't doing as well as he could be and as such i try and avoid that thread.


anyone accept your point of view indeed wearing blinkers.

a guy who judge the car 's pace by speed trap aint worth replying imo.


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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:06 pm 
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NvrDieYoung wrote:
NvrDieYoung wrote:
lunatic wrote:

Well the begining of the season told a different story, that Lotus was consistantly the fastest through the speed trap and was also handling like it was on rails, Kimi has done a good job this year and i don't deny it, but he hasn't extracted the best out of it which a few others on the grid would have been able to do, this will go round in circles, i wont change my view and you are a Kimi fan and as such one of the die hard elite, i gave up trying to argue with Kimi fans years ago, they only watch F1 with blinkers on ;)[/color] also, funny that as soon as anyone says anything slightly negative about kimi they intantly get branded as a hater :lol:


hahahaha, rbr 's speed trap is by far the worst, so i suppose they are tortoise -like slow then??

We brand some1 as hater when they didn't provide facts on their bashing post.
Please point to where i'm bashing? you Kimi fans are just too sensitive and if people dont bow down and hail him like you lot do we get branded as haters or bashers, as i said before, Kimi fans watch races with blinkers on. ;)[/quote]I'm not going to even bother getting into a row with a Kimi fan just because you can't except somebody elses point of view, there is 215 pages of excuses trying to justify why Kimi isn't doing as well as he could be and as such i try and avoid that thread.[/quote]

anyone accept your point of view indeed wearing blinkers.

a guy who judge the car 's pace by speed trap aint worth replying imo.[/quote]Its not just the speed trap, if you honestly think that lotus hasn't been a race winning car (except when it did win) then you are seriously deluded.

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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:11 pm 
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lunatic wrote:
NvrDieYoung wrote:
NvrDieYoung wrote:
lunatic wrote:

Its not just the speed trap, if you honestly think that lotus hasn't been a race winning car (except when it did win) then you are seriously deluded.


it did, in hungary, bahrain when the track is extremly hot, but they dont hv the pace to be on pole unlike rbr and mclaren!! while these two teams had often been the contender for win in most races. Hope it answers your question =)


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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:35 pm 
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NvrDieYoung wrote:
lunatic wrote:
NvrDieYoung wrote:
NvrDieYoung wrote:
lunatic wrote:

Its not just the speed trap, if you honestly think that lotus hasn't been a race winning car (except when it did win) then you are seriously deluded.


it did, in hungary, bahrain when the track is extremly hot, but they dont hv the pace to be on pole unlike rbr and mclaren!! while these two teams had often been the contender for win in most races. Hope it answers your question =)

Kimi has often gone backwards this year in qualy, especially in Q3 and you are assuming the car did not have the pace in qualy. The Lotus should have had many wins this year but Kimi couldnt hook up the car together at crucial points of time in qualy and race. In a way, I think that Jenson and Kimi are too sensitive to the handling of the car and for some reason are not able to make the tyres work when needed. Is it a driver failing or a car problem, we cant be sure but it is possible that a better driver in that car would have done much better than Kimi has.


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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:22 pm 
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lunatic wrote:
NvrDieYoung wrote:
NvrDieYoung wrote:
lunatic wrote:

Well the begining of the season told a different story, that Lotus was consistantly the fastest through the speed trap and was also handling like it was on rails, Kimi has done a good job this year and i don't deny it, but he hasn't extracted the best out of it which a few others on the grid would have been able to do, this will go round in circles, i wont change my view and you are a Kimi fan and as such one of the die hard elite, i gave up trying to argue with Kimi fans years ago, they only watch F1 with blinkers on ;)[/color] also, funny that as soon as anyone says anything slightly negative about kimi they intantly get branded as a hater :lol:


hahahaha, rbr 's speed trap is by far the worst, so i suppose they are tortoise -like slow then??

We brand some1 as hater when they didn't provide facts on their bashing post.
Please point to where i'm bashing? you Kimi fans are just too sensitive and if people dont bow down and hail him like you lot do we get branded as haters or bashers, as i said before, Kimi fans watch races with blinkers on. ;)
I'm not going to even bother getting into a row with a Kimi fan just because you can't except somebody elses point of view, there is 215 pages of excuses trying to justify why Kimi isn't doing as well as he could be and as such i try and avoid that thread.[/quote]

anyone accept your point of view indeed wearing blinkers.

a guy who judge the car 's pace by speed trap aint worth replying imo.[/quote]Its not just the speed trap, if you honestly think that lotus hasn't been a race winning car (except when it did win) then you are seriously deluded.[/quote]


Dude, you're so funny :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:31 pm 
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well, coming from a fan is not credible for sure. But the whole idea of even comparing Kimi to Button is laughable and to some extent insulting to Kimi's ability and legacy

Of course you can never tell how will things pan out because its not just the driver's ability, but it takes so many things to enable a driver to perform at his best. But from what we've seen from both driver I think Kimi easily is a better and more complete driver than Button


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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:35 pm 
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F1nsider wrote:
Kimi would swipe the floor with Jenson..

Prove me wrong :P


:thumbup:


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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:32 pm 
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Never mind Jenson !

Id put Kimi ahead of Vettel if you could keep him off the beer.

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