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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:41 am 
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/20324109

Thats it then. Ayrton Senna Number One : )))

Full List:-
Number 1 - Ayrton Senna
Number 2 - Juan Manuel Fangio
Number 3 - Jim Clark
Number 4 - Michael Schumacher
Number 5 - Alain Prost
Number 6 - Sir Stirling Moss
Number 7 - Sir Jackie Stewart
Number 8 - Sebastian Vettel
Number 9 - Niki Lauda
Number 10 - Fernando Alonso
Number 11 - Alberto Ascari
Number 12 - Gilles Villeneuve
Number 13 - Nigel Mansell
Number 14 - Mika Hakkinen
Number 15 - Lewis Hamilton
Number 16 - Nelson Piquet
Number 17 - Emerson Fittipaldi
Number 18 - Jack Brabham
Number 19 - Graham Hill
Number 20 - Jochen Rindt


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:37 am 
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I agree with that list and I know many who do. There will still be those unhappy but at the end of the day all the facts and statistics went in to account. Including their effect on people and the sport.
Senna for one as mentioned in the video was loved by other countries, I grew up watching his performances and my old man was a huge fan.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:49 am 
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I always find these lists interesting but I recognise how subjective they are and don't worry about who's above who or who's been left off etc. But Vettel 8th...?

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:52 am 
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I'm not bashing Vettel but how they can put him above the likes of Alonso, Lauda and Piquet is beyond me.

Fangio should be No.1, followed by Schumacher, Prost and then Senna.

A bullshit list.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:57 am 
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Maky wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/20324109

Thats it then. Ayrton Senna Number One : )))

Full List:-
Number 1 - Ayrton Senna
Number 2 - Juan Manuel Fangio
Number 3 - Jim Clark
Number 4 - Michael Schumacher
Number 5 - Alain Prost
Number 6 - Sir Stirling Moss
Number 7 - Sir Jackie Stewart
Number 8 - Sebastian Vettel
Number 9 - Niki Lauda
Number 10 - Fernando Alonso
Number 11 - Alberto Ascari
Number 12 - Gilles Villeneuve
Number 13 - Nigel Mansell
Number 14 - Mika Hakkinen
Number 15 - Lewis Hamilton
Number 16 - Nelson Piquet
Number 17 - Emerson Fittipaldi
Number 18 - Jack Brabham
Number 19 - Graham Hill
Number 20 - Jochen Rindt



Great list. Seb is too far up for imo.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:08 am 
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Emerson.F wrote:

Great list. Seb is too far up for imo.


Just wait a couple of seasons and this list will be accurate.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:15 am 
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Senna #1? Shock to everyone wasn't it!

I disagree with the list, but must admit I've seen only youtube of half of these peoples careers as I didn't get into F1 until late 90s. But I think the order should be somewhat different.

I also can't help but think if Schumi hadn't come back, we'd have seen him higher up that list.

Edit: Okay, thought Schumi was #14 - maybe not higher than 4th actually.


Last edited by mac_d on Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:17 am 
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Vettel is definitely too high up on the list. He may be that high in the future, but currently, no way as high as eight.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:36 am 
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Considering how subjective it all is I think it's a pretty decent list. Vettel in 8th is a bit generous though. Personally I'd put Schumacher number 1. He was unquestionably the world's top driver for about 10 years (I'm thinking 1994 - 2004), head and shoulders above the rest, and the only drivers who could beat him did so with a significantly better car, and even then they made hard work of it. As far as I'm concerned no other driver in history has been so much better than everyone else to the same extent and for that period of time.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:46 am 
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Vettel way too high, Graham Hill that far down? i'm sure these lists are put together just to make forums explode.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:50 am 
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Senna first, just before the Brazilian GP. Shocker this one!

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:12 pm 
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The list lost all credibility when they put Vettel ahead of Hamilton and Alonso.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:20 pm 
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MistaVega23 wrote:
Fangio should be No.1, followed by Schumacher, Prost and then Senna.


Fangio: I concede I don't really know much about him, so I won't say anything.

But as for the others, having seen them drive, for me Senna will always be above Schumacher and Prost (in that particular order). Monaco 1984 and 1988 (qualifying) are just two of the reasons for that.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:21 pm 
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Peter77 wrote:
The list lost all credibility when they put Vettel ahead of Hamilton and Alonso.


It's a list based on peoples opinions. It should have no "credibility", it is what it is. There are people who rank Vettel higher than Hamilton and Alonso, and that's it.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:23 pm 
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I can only judge my lifetime and what I have seen.

So my top 3 are

1. Senna
2. Prost
3. Schumacher

I go back and forth with Prost and Schumi.

Alonso and Miki may be number 4 and 5. Remember my knowledge of F1 is from around 1988 to 2012.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:32 pm 
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Sir Stirling Moss, just behind the likes of the Prof & Schumi???? How many WDC's did he win
1) Senna, 3 WDC
2) JMF, 5 WDC
3) Clark 2 WDC
4) MSC 7 WDC
5) Prost 4 WDC
6) SMoss ????

And Seb better than Fernando?, never days!


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:39 pm 
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Cracken wrote:
And Seb better than Fernando?, never days!


I rate Vettel now higher than Alonso at the same age. Time will tell if Vettel can confirm the obvious talent he has.
Actually, I would have put Hamilton above Alonso too.

But frankly, I think lists should not include active drivers (unless they have been driving for at least 10+ years) because subjective as these lists are, taking into acount future performances (that you think drivers will accomplish) is even more subjective.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:44 pm 
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I agree that vettel's too high up on that list. He's been in 1 team and it's too early in his career to be declaring him as one of the greatest drivers.

Lets see how he does when he eventually leaves the cuddly arms of Helmut Marko before declaring him as a god of F1.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:08 pm 
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For those who say Vettel doesn't deserve to be on the list ... I bring you some facts

Vettel was the youngest driver ever to win a race.
Vettel is youngest to be on pole.
Vettel is youngest to set a fastest lap at a grand prix session. (includes practice, not race only, hes 4th in races for youngest)
Vettel is youngest to be on the podium
Vettel was the youngest to score points.
Vettel is the youngest world champion and double world champion
Vettel is 7th in career wins with a 27% win rate. Alonso is 5th with double the starts and only 15% win rate.
Vettel is 8th on career % wins compared to starts. Although 2 people above him dont belong there because they have less than 10 starts
Vettel is tied with Schumacher for second most wins in a season (MS also has the #1 spot)
Twice in his career he has 4 wins in a row, Fernando has once, Lewis has never (Button had 4 in 2009 and MS several times)
With just 100 GP's Vettel is already 3rd on the list of all time most pole positions.
Vettel is 5th on % pole positions with Senna being the only driver above him with more starts.
Vettel has the record for the most pole positions in a season.
Vettel is 5th on highest % pole positions for a season, a list dominated by late 80's early 90's cars that had much bigger differences than todays cars
Vettel is tied with Schumacher for most podiums in a season
Vettel is 3rd in career points with only 100 starts (this one is a bit skewed because of points system changes over the years)
Vettel has averaged just over 10 points a race in his career. Lewis with 9 more starts has averaged 8
Vettel is second in Highest percentage of total possible points in a season with 82%
Vettel is seventh on the list of most laps led and most distance led
Vettel has won from pole 19 times, the only drivers with more are #1 and 4 on that list



You get the idea ... what makes all these records even more unbelievable is he has only had 100 starts and is only 25. I cannot think of another driver who has done more in a shorter amount of time than Vettel. If he retired today (and lost the championship) he would still deserve to be on the list just due to the amount of records in such a short time.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:13 pm 
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Bakerking31 wrote:
For those who say Vettel doesn't deserve to be on the list ... I bring you some facts

Vettel was the youngest driver ever to win a race.
Vettel is youngest to be on pole.
Vettel is youngest to set a fastest lap at a grand prix session. (includes practice, not race only, hes 4th in races for youngest)
Vettel is youngest to be on the podium
Vettel was the youngest to score points.
Vettel is the youngest world champion and double world champion
Vettel is 7th in career wins with a 27% win rate. Alonso is 5th with double the starts and only 15% win rate.
Vettel is 8th on career % wins compared to starts. Although 2 people above him dont belong there because they have less than 10 starts
Vettel is tied with Schumacher for second most wins in a season (MS also has the #1 spot)
Twice in his career he has 4 wins in a row, Fernando has once, Lewis has never (Button had 4 in 2009 and MS several times)
With just 100 GP's Vettel is already 3rd on the list of all time most pole positions.
Vettel is 5th on % pole positions with Senna being the only driver above him with more starts.
Vettel has the record for the most pole positions in a season.
Vettel is 5th on highest % pole positions for a season, a list dominated by late 80's early 90's cars that had much bigger differences than todays cars
Vettel is tied with Schumacher for most podiums in a season
Vettel is 3rd in career points with only 100 starts (this one is a bit skewed because of points system changes over the years)
Vettel has averaged just over 10 points a race in his career. Lewis with 9 more starts has averaged 8
Vettel is second in Highest percentage of total possible points in a season with 82%
Vettel is seventh on the list of most laps led and most distance led
Vettel has won from pole 19 times, the only drivers with more are #1 and 4 on that list



You get the idea ... what makes all these records even more unbelievable is he has only had 100 starts and is only 25. I cannot think of another driver who has done more in a shorter amount of time than Vettel. If he retired today (and lost the championship) he would still deserve to be on the list just due to the amount of records in such a short time.


He deserves to be on the list no doubt, but not that high up, not yet. Don't forget the car he has had from 2009 - 2012 has been amazing, apart from the first part of 2012.

He did well in 2008 but even his team mate was in podium positions twice until retirements so the car was quite good.

It's only the bbc anyway, would love to see fans list or current drivers opinions


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:16 pm 
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I think the countdown should have been done differently by ranking the standout drivers by the decade they raced in:
1950s- Fangio
1960s-Clark
1970s- Lauda
1980s- Prost
1990s Senna
2000s- Schumacher
2010s- Vettel (thus far)

I just think its impossible to compare them on numbers only basis. Who knows whether Schumacher or vettel could have outdriven Clark or fangio?


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:53 pm 
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Bakerking31 wrote:
For those who say Vettel doesn't deserve to be on the list ... I bring you some facts

Vettel was the youngest driver ever to win a race.
Vettel is youngest to be on pole.
Vettel is youngest to set a fastest lap at a grand prix session. (includes practice, not race only, hes 4th in races for youngest)
Vettel is youngest to be on the podium
Vettel was the youngest to score points.
Vettel is the youngest world champion and double world champion
Vettel is 7th in career wins with a 27% win rate. Alonso is 5th with double the starts and only 15% win rate.
Vettel is 8th on career % wins compared to starts. Although 2 people above him dont belong there because they have less than 10 starts
Vettel is tied with Schumacher for second most wins in a season (MS also has the #1 spot)
Twice in his career he has 4 wins in a row, Fernando has once, Lewis has never (Button had 4 in 2009 and MS several times)
With just 100 GP's Vettel is already 3rd on the list of all time most pole positions.
Vettel is 5th on % pole positions with Senna being the only driver above him with more starts.
Vettel has the record for the most pole positions in a season.
Vettel is 5th on highest % pole positions for a season, a list dominated by late 80's early 90's cars that had much bigger differences than todays cars
Vettel is tied with Schumacher for most podiums in a season
Vettel is 3rd in career points with only 100 starts (this one is a bit skewed because of points system changes over the years)
Vettel has averaged just over 10 points a race in his career. Lewis with 9 more starts has averaged 8
Vettel is second in Highest percentage of total possible points in a season with 82%
Vettel is seventh on the list of most laps led and most distance led
Vettel has won from pole 19 times, the only drivers with more are #1 and 4 on that list



You get the idea ... what makes all these records even more unbelievable is he has only had 100 starts and is only 25. I cannot think of another driver who has done more in a shorter amount of time than Vettel. If he retired today (and lost the championship) he would still deserve to be on the list just due to the amount of records in such a short time.


Whilst, I'm not saying statistics should be completly disregarded. I feel as if statistics like these are 1, trivial, and two, meaningless without context.

For example. Vettel has averaged 10 points per race. That may seem good. But if you look at it in context, you realise that, a) we've had different points systems so some drivers would consequently have lower averages. If you take the exact same set of results, and put them on different point systems, you get different averages. Does this mean Vettel is worse of a driver? No, it just means that the stat is useless for comparison purposes.

Another stat that you used "Vettel is 7th in career wins with a 27% win rate. Alonso is 5th with double the starts and only 15% win rate"
The key to that stat is in that Alonso has double the starts. That means he would, as a result have a lower ratio of wins to race starts. Also, that doesn't even take into account the type of machinery they have driven in that time. Vettel has undeniably had better machinery in his relatively short career compared to Alonso, which makes his stats look better.


I could go through each and every stat and analyse them individually, but it isn't really worth the time. Before people start accusing me of Vettel bashing. I'm not, I just don't agree with your use of statistics to back up Vettel's inclusion on the list.

For what it's worth. The only current driver I think that should be on the list is Schumacher. That's not to do with talent, it's just that he's been here for long enough for us to have time to judge his career as a whole. Alonso for me, would be just outside, based on the fact his career isn't over yet.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:01 pm 
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Bakerking31 wrote:
For those who say Vettel doesn't deserve to be on the list ... I bring you some facts

Vettel was the youngest driver ever to win a race.
Vettel is youngest to be on pole.
Vettel is youngest to set a fastest lap at a grand prix session. (includes practice, not race only, hes 4th in races for youngest)
Vettel is youngest to be on the podium
Vettel was the youngest to score points.
Vettel is the youngest world champion and double world champion
Vettel is 7th in career wins with a 27% win rate. Alonso is 5th with double the starts and only 15% win rate.
Vettel is 8th on career % wins compared to starts. Although 2 people above him dont belong there because they have less than 10 starts
Vettel is tied with Schumacher for second most wins in a season (MS also has the #1 spot)
Twice in his career he has 4 wins in a row, Fernando has once, Lewis has never (Button had 4 in 2009 and MS several times)
With just 100 GP's Vettel is already 3rd on the list of all time most pole positions.
Vettel is 5th on % pole positions with Senna being the only driver above him with more starts.
Vettel has the record for the most pole positions in a season.
Vettel is 5th on highest % pole positions for a season, a list dominated by late 80's early 90's cars that had much bigger differences than todays cars
Vettel is tied with Schumacher for most podiums in a season
Vettel is 3rd in career points with only 100 starts (this one is a bit skewed because of points system changes over the years)
Vettel has averaged just over 10 points a race in his career. Lewis with 9 more starts has averaged 8
Vettel is second in Highest percentage of total possible points in a season with 82%
Vettel is seventh on the list of most laps led and most distance led
Vettel has won from pole 19 times, the only drivers with more are #1 and 4 on that list



You get the idea ... what makes all these records even more unbelievable is he has only had 100 starts and is only 25. I cannot think of another driver who has done more in a shorter amount of time than Vettel. If he retired today (and lost the championship) he would still deserve to be on the list just due to the amount of records in such a short time.

not to take anything away from him but you have to look at the stats alongside the opportunity he has had. Drivers seem to be getting younger and younger these days, for a start, and Seb's had a top car with reliability that drivers in the last century could only dream about. Nelson Piquet won the WDC in 1981 and 1983, yet in 1982 he retired more times than he finished, largely due to crappy reliability. Seb's been fortunate to have a consistently excellent car for several years.

No-one's saying Seb's no good, just questioning his position in the list relative to other drivers. The stats don't tell the full story


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:25 pm 
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Cant comment about Fangio but the best i have seen by some distance is Senna. Agree a bit early for Vettel to be 8th but sure he will end his career as one of the greats


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:00 pm 
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RunningMan wrote:
I could go through each and every stat and analyse them individually


Some are quite independent of scoring systems or number of races in a season. For example, the number of highest % of the total of possible points in a season. The Red Bull was dominant last year, but there have been equally dominant cars in F1 history. So that one, you can compare.

Also the facts about him being the youngest to achieve certain things. Scoring points, scoring podiums, that's telling. Also, youngest double (maybe triple, soon) WDC: yes, he got a dominant car from young age, but he got into that RBR on merit, passed by Toro Rosso first where he was noticed (also by Mclaren, who wanted to sign him).

I would agree there are some pretty daft statistics in there (number of total career points, among many others), but there are quite a few telling too.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:04 pm 
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MistaVega23 wrote:
I'm not bashing Vettel but how they can put him above the likes of Alonso, Lauda and Piquet is beyond me.


Number 8 - Sebastian Vettel
Number 9 - Niki Lauda
Number 16 - Nelson Piquet
Number 17 - Emerson Fittipaldi
Number 18 - Jack Brabham
Number 19 - Graham Hill

Not only above Piquet but 8 places above him... absurd. Above Lauda, is also absurd. Vettel first needs to visit death and then come back before outranking Lauda.

And Brabham is far too low.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:40 pm 
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mds wrote:
RunningMan wrote:
I could go through each and every stat and analyse them individually


Some are quite independent of scoring systems or number of races in a season. For example, the number of highest % of the total of possible points in a season. The Red Bull was dominant last year, but there have been equally dominant cars in F1 history. So that one, you can compare.

Also the facts about him being the youngest to achieve certain things. Scoring points, scoring podiums, that's telling. Also, youngest double (maybe triple, soon) WDC: yes, he got a dominant car from young age, but he got into that RBR on merit, passed by Toro Rosso first where he was noticed (also by Mclaren, who wanted to sign him).

I would agree there are some pretty daft statistics in there (number of total career points, among many others), but there are quite a few telling too.


I disagree with the part about youngest stats. If anything, those are some of the most trivial. For example. Take Button and hamilton. Hamilton won his WDC when he was relatively young. In fact, he took the record from Alonso. Whereas Button won it when he was relatively old. But as we have seen in the last 3 seasons. They're very close in terms of actual skill and on track performance and abilities. Showing that age, once again, isn't really that telling.

All age statistics tell you is how old you were when you got into a fast car.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:56 pm 
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j man wrote:
Considering how subjective it all is I think it's a pretty decent list. Vettel in 8th is a bit generous though. Personally I'd put Schumacher number 1. He was unquestionably the world's top driver for about 10 years (I'm thinking 1994 - 2004), head and shoulders above the rest, and the only drivers who could beat him did so with a significantly better car, and even then they made hard work of it. As far as I'm concerned no other driver in history has been so much better than everyone else to the same extent and for that period of time.


I agree, total dominance for longer than anyone, and changed the sport in the sense that drivers realized that an all round approach with team building, total immersion in work and peak physical fitness provide greater returns than reliance on talent alone. This was a quantum jump for F1. Also, he so dominated his peers that we now wonder if they were any good at all! And use the argument against him!! The only negative is that he was the alpha male in the team, but that could be said of several other drivers on that list.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:59 pm 
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RunningMan wrote:
All age statistics tell you is how old you were when you got into a fast car.


Only when you assume you can just "luck" into a good car. Then you're right. But I don't believe it.
Vettel proved himself in the Toro Rosso, and was wanted by at least two top teams. He got the RBR drive on merit (and didn't disappoint).
Hamilton proved himself in feeder series and got the Mclaren drive on merit.
Renault believed in Alonso from a very early age. He also got that on merit.

Button was less impressive in his first F1 years than either Vettel, Hamilton or Alonso. As such he didn't get a great drive at a top team and would have possibly never had, had it not been for Brawn hitting a full-on home run with the BGP.

Also, the very fact that a driver at that young age is mature enough to a) defeat much more mature teammates, and b) gets it done and wins the WDC is telling of unmistakable talent.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:01 pm 
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Senna was probably the fastest driver ever. If a man is judged by his competition then Schumacher has the edge.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:42 pm 
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Vettel's position is a farce, but the top few all seem pretty much spot on.

Senna is my number 1 anyway, I don't believe we've seen a better combination of talent, speed and personality in our sport.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:06 pm 
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@ Bakerking31

We can make stats look what ever we want but the fact is that he has had the fastest car on the grid period.

We can equally look at Vettel's record in the 2005 Formula 3 Euro Series season (20 races)in Equal spec cars!
1 Lewis Hamilton 1 3 1 1 DSQ 1 1 1 3 1 1 1 12 1 Ret 1 1 1 1 1 172
2 Adrian Sutil 2 20 Ret 2 1 2 2 Ret 2 3 Ret 2 1 3 Ret 11 4 2 94
3 Lucas di Grassi Ret DNS 5 7 DSQ 3 7 5 1 2 5 6 2 Ret Ret Ret 8 3 2 Ret 68
4 Franck Perera Ret 8 Ret 6 6 6 5 3 6 15 4 3 5 6 3 6 5 5 4 5 67
5 Sebastian Vettel 15 5 7 11 DSQ 13 18 17 5 5 2 4 11 2 2 2 3 15 13 3 63

Hamilton and Alonso went head to head. Until he goes Head to Head with a Top 3 driver in an equal car you can never know how really good he is.
Look what he was in the first half of the season this year when the car was not as good, why was he not winning then? I believe he is a good driver and had developed his race craft over the years but he is no way the best.
If Kimi, Hamilton, Alonso or Button had a car 0.5 seconds on average faster than the rest over a season any one of them would walk the title plain and simple. Button proved it at brawn GP. Vettel is doing the same at Red bull.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:26 pm 
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Zblogger wrote:
We can equally look at Vettel's record in the 2005 Formula 3 Euro Series season (20 races)in Equal spec cars!


Firstly, performance in feeder series is not always telling for performance in F1. There are drivers who thrive in F1 compared to feeder series, while there are drivers that were absolutely magnificent in feeders series that haven't done that well in F1.

Secondly, it was Hamiltons second F3 Euroseries season, and Vettels first.
To compare it for you, in Hamiltons first F3 Euroseries season he ended... fifth. One of the four in front of Hamilton was Rosberg, of the others none of them got into F1. So I think whatever you were trying to prove with the 2005 F3 season is rendered null and void by the 2004 F3 season.

Also, in 2006 Vettel got into an FR3.5 for just one race weekend. In those two races, he got second and first. That's pretty great. In 2007 he got into the FR3.5 for 7 out of 17 races, ended up in fifth place with way more than half of the eventual champion.

Honestly, why do you think he was given a seat in F1? Why do you think he was given a seat at RBR and was also highly wanted by Mclaren?

Quote:
Look what he was in the first half of the season this year when the car was not as good, why was he not winning then?


Oh come on, this has been said far too often, but the people saying it are (willingly or unwillingly) blind. He lost a deserved win in Valencia (which would have made him the first repeat winner) and Karthikeyan punctured his tyre in Malaysia. If not for those two incidents he would have been right up there and comfortably in front of his teammate all season long.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:46 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Senna was probably the fastest driver ever. If a man is judged by his competition then Schumacher has the edge.


I disagree

Schumi had Miki for a few years, but after that who? Sure Kimi and Juan were about but there cars were nowhere near good enough the majority of the time.

Senna had in 1988/1989 - Prost as his teamate

1990 - Prost and Mansell in a Ferrari that was on par with the McLaren overall

1991 - Mansell in a quicker Williams (with poorer reliability I admit)

Those 4 years he won his 3 titles, and in the year he did not outraced Prost 9-1 when nothing went wrong.

In 1993 he also beat Schumi in arguably a inferior car, and Damon Hill in a far better car.

Senna faced and bear better foes, in my opinion.

Schumi did have Hill as well to be fair in 94 and 95, and Miki from 1998-2000, He was also unable to beat Jacques in 1997.

After that he only really had Juan and Kimi in 2003 in cars that could challenge, and he did win.

2001,2002 and 2004 he did what he had to do, but competition was very low in terms of car and drivers.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:28 am 
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RunningMan wrote:
Bakerking31 wrote:
.


Whilst, I'm not saying statistics should be completly disregarded. I feel as if statistics like these are 1, trivial, and two, meaningless without context.

For example. Vettel has averaged 10 points per race. That may seem good. But if you look at it in context, you realise that, a) we've had different points systems so some drivers would consequently have lower averages. If you take the exact same set of results, and put them on different point systems, you get different averages. Does this mean Vettel is worse of a driver? No, it just means that the stat is useless for comparison purposes.

Another stat that you used "Vettel is 7th in career wins with a 27% win rate. Alonso is 5th with double the starts and only 15% win rate"
The key to that stat is in that Alonso has double the starts. That means he would, as a result have a lower ratio of wins to race starts. Also, that doesn't even take into account the type of machinery they have driven in that time. Vettel has undeniably had better machinery in his relatively short career compared to Alonso, which makes his stats look better.


I could go through each and every stat and analyse them individually, but it isn't really worth the time. Before people start accusing me of Vettel bashing. I'm not, I just don't agree with your use of statistics to back up Vettel's inclusion on the list.

For what it's worth. The only current driver I think that should be on the list is Schumacher. That's not to do with talent, it's just that he's been here for long enough for us to have time to judge his career as a whole. Alonso for me, would be just outside, based on the fact his career isn't over yet.


I agree some of them are fairly trivial. BUT you cant discount 3rd all time for poles after only 100 races, or that he has only 4 less wins than Fernando with half the starts. Yes he had a good car for the last 3 years but he was also in a midfield team in his opening season.

If we dont use statistics for a list of all time great drivers than what are we going to use? Feeling? Thats more subjective than the statistics are.

To those who say Vettel only has good stats because he was in a great car, what about the others on the list ... Fangio had the best car for most if not all of his career, Senna had dominant cars. The cars today are far closer in performance than they ever have been in F1 history so saying the only reason Vettel is doing well is because he is in a dominant car is a load of BS, every top driver gets into a dominant car, the best drivers move into the best cars, the worst move down the grid then exit, but the cars of today are not nearly as dominant as they were in Fangio or Senna's times.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 3:50 am 
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ITS NOT THAT HARD.

Number 1 - Lewis Hamilton -Speed, agression, yet precise ultimately the fastest and the most refine, does what nobody else can do in all conditions.

Number 2 - Ayrton Senna -speed, agression, will not race fairly
Number 3 - Alain Prost - A master at his trade

Number 5 - Fernando Alonso -Fierce and Fast a leader of men.
Number 6 - Juan Manuel Fangio - Fearless, fast and so many wins

Number 7 - Gilles Villeneuve -Speed agression,lacks the refined touch, but brilliant and instinctual driver

Number 8 - Michael Schumacher - A leader will shine brighter than all in history
Number 9- Nigel Mansell -Also Fierce and fast late bloomer

Number 10 - Sebastian Vettel The guy knows how to win.
Number 11 - Nelson Piquet agressive opportunistic


Number 12 - Niki Lauda is well liked
Number 13 - Mika Hakkinen late bloomer but no doubt he is very good
Number 14 - Emerson Fittipaldi he's very good

British Legends category

Number xx - Jim Clark
Number xx- Sir Stirling Moss
Number xx - Jack Brabham
Number xx - Graham Hill
Number xx- Sir Jackie Stewart

Folklore
Number xx - Alberto Ascari
Number xx - Jochen Rindt


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 4:14 am 
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Vettel at number 8 EVER?! this is some kind of joke right?

So Sebastian Vettel is a better driver than Lauda,Alonso,Mansell,Hakkinen,Hamilton,Piquet and Fittipaldi? I'm not bashing Seb but I think the people at the BBC need their heads checked.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:03 am 
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MclarenBullet wrote:
Bakerking31 wrote:
For those who say Vettel doesn't deserve to be on the list ... I bring you some facts

Vettel was the youngest driver ever to win a race.
Vettel is youngest to be on pole.
Vettel is youngest to set a fastest lap at a grand prix session. (includes practice, not race only, hes 4th in races for youngest)
Vettel is youngest to be on the podium
Vettel was the youngest to score points.
Vettel is the youngest world champion and double world champion
Vettel is 7th in career wins with a 27% win rate. Alonso is 5th with double the starts and only 15% win rate.
Vettel is 8th on career % wins compared to starts. Although 2 people above him dont belong there because they have less than 10 starts
Vettel is tied with Schumacher for second most wins in a season (MS also has the #1 spot)
Twice in his career he has 4 wins in a row, Fernando has once, Lewis has never (Button had 4 in 2009 and MS several times)
With just 100 GP's Vettel is already 3rd on the list of all time most pole positions.
Vettel is 5th on % pole positions with Senna being the only driver above him with more starts.
Vettel has the record for the most pole positions in a season.
Vettel is 5th on highest % pole positions for a season, a list dominated by late 80's early 90's cars that had much bigger differences than todays cars
Vettel is tied with Schumacher for most podiums in a season
Vettel is 3rd in career points with only 100 starts (this one is a bit skewed because of points system changes over the years)
Vettel has averaged just over 10 points a race in his career. Lewis with 9 more starts has averaged 8
Vettel is second in Highest percentage of total possible points in a season with 82%
Vettel is seventh on the list of most laps led and most distance led
Vettel has won from pole 19 times, the only drivers with more are #1 and 4 on that list



You get the idea ... what makes all these records even more unbelievable is he has only had 100 starts and is only 25. I cannot think of another driver who has done more in a shorter amount of time than Vettel. If he retired today (and lost the championship) he would still deserve to be on the list just due to the amount of records in such a short time.


He deserves to be on the list no doubt, but not that high up, not yet. Don't forget the car he has had from 2009 - 2012 has been amazing, apart from the first part of 2012.

He did well in 2008 but even his team mate was in podium positions twice until retirements so the car was quite good.

It's only the bbc anyway, would love to see fans list or current drivers opinions


Do you think Lewis deserves his rank above Piquet Snr. and Brabham? Mind you Vettel has achieved a lot when compared to Alonso and much more than Hamilton. So where would you place this guy who is so hard to beat by two of the current drivers who were WDC's, especially since they rank 10(FA)and 15(LH)?

I personally believe that Vettel is on the verge of top 20 drivers, Alonso has a place there... LH? Seriously? Both SV and LH can be in top 30 odd, but when i see them in top 20, i wonder why? Though this is not a dig at either of them, or their achievements... it is just that there are a lot of people who've done more.

My sig has my top 5... for what it is worth.

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My Top 5 drivers of all times:
1) Prost/ Schumacher
3) Fangio
4) Lauda
5) Brabham

if you don't like it, too bad! There's a reason why it says "My Top 5"


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:14 am 
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Bakerking31 wrote:
RunningMan wrote:
Bakerking31 wrote:
.


Whilst, I'm not saying statistics should be completly disregarded. I feel as if statistics like these are 1, trivial, and two, meaningless without context.

For example. Vettel has averaged 10 points per race. That may seem good. But if you look at it in context, you realise that, a) we've had different points systems so some drivers would consequently have lower averages. If you take the exact same set of results, and put them on different point systems, you get different averages. Does this mean Vettel is worse of a driver? No, it just means that the stat is useless for comparison purposes.

Another stat that you used "Vettel is 7th in career wins with a 27% win rate. Alonso is 5th with double the starts and only 15% win rate"
The key to that stat is in that Alonso has double the starts. That means he would, as a result have a lower ratio of wins to race starts. Also, that doesn't even take into account the type of machinery they have driven in that time. Vettel has undeniably had better machinery in his relatively short career compared to Alonso, which makes his stats look better.


I could go through each and every stat and analyse them individually, but it isn't really worth the time. Before people start accusing me of Vettel bashing. I'm not, I just don't agree with your use of statistics to back up Vettel's inclusion on the list.

For what it's worth. The only current driver I think that should be on the list is Schumacher. That's not to do with talent, it's just that he's been here for long enough for us to have time to judge his career as a whole. Alonso for me, would be just outside, based on the fact his career isn't over yet.


I agree some of them are fairly trivial. BUT you cant discount 3rd all time for poles after only 100 races, or that he has only 4 less wins than Fernando with half the starts. Yes he had a good car for the last 3 years but he was also in a midfield team in his opening season.

If we dont use statistics for a list of all time great drivers than what are we going to use? Feeling? Thats more subjective than the statistics are.

To those who say Vettel only has good stats because he was in a great car, what about the others on the list ... Fangio had the best car for most if not all of his career, Senna had dominant cars. The cars today are far closer in performance than they ever have been in F1 history so saying the only reason Vettel is doing well is because he is in a dominant car is a load of BS, every top driver gets into a dominant car, the best drivers move into the best cars, the worst move down the grid then exit, but the cars of today are not nearly as dominant as they were in Fangio or Senna's times.


Again I need to point out that I have no problem with including stats, I just do not agree with your use of some to support Vettel here. Vettel has been in F1 for a really short space of time, and yes he has achieved alot, but that could all change when the regs change. For all we know come 2014 on the new regs, Vettel will be nowhere. All great drivers have withstood the test of time. If you want examples. Look at Alonso. He has won races and fought for championships on the V10's, V8's the pre 2009 aero rules, the post 2009 aero rules. He's won races and fought for championships for different teams. Compare that to Vettel. Who has only dominated one set of regulations, in one team.

Vettel's machinery has been unquestionably good yes. That is why I think we should wait until longer before judging him as a true "great". Fangio dominated a different kind of F1 back then. Which makes comparison with him difficult because things were so different.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 8:11 am 
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I found it odd Hamilton is placed where he is ...
I would have put him in top 10 at least. Also, I would have been critical of vettels position but he seems to have really matured(as a driver!) in this the 2012 season.

1.)Senna
2.)Schumacher
3.)Fangio
4.)Prost
5.)Alonso
6.) Hamilton
.
..
...
Everyone else...


Last edited by Maky on Wed Nov 21, 2012 8:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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