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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:45 am 
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LKS1 wrote:
funkymonkey wrote:
Mercedes is one of the teams that will have to do fundamental changes to their car thanks to ban on DDRS (their implementation).
So it is significant change to their chassis. So they can test some small parts on this car, but their new car will be significantly different and basically a new version rather than gradual evolution.
So they probably have written off this year at this stage knowing ban on DDRS.

Is there any doubt that Merc have written off their car this year? But as others have pointed out, they've done this for the past 3 years before the end of the season to concentrate on next year's car....

It seems unlikely that next year's car will be any better (as they still seem to have no 'handle' on the tyres) - but we won't know until a few races in next year.

All we do know is that the Merc has been getting worse for the previous few races this season. Schumi may have qualified reasonably well in the US, but went backwards throughout the race. Nico qualified extremely badly, and didn't really improve his position in the race....


Schumi was basically testing the new Coanda exhaust. Qualifying 6th perhaps says its not utterly hopeless, but it was so bad in the race it shows how far behind they are compared to teams like... well, everyone.

Unless they had some sort of problem, but I don't think they did...


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:26 pm 
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Mercedes gave been putting together a new team which now in place should help

Brawn has openly said that they know where they have gone wrong and that they took a development path which was wrong and had unreversable consequences.

Now the question is whether they have the team to go down the right path next year.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:48 pm 
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you would have to hope so regards of a good car in 2013.

but one good car in every 10 years seems to be this teams way!


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 2:31 pm 
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:lol: :lol: :lol:

Sorry, am not laughing at your question OP, but for the last 3 years we have been believing in this fact everytime a season ended and then they never failed to disappoint! That is the reason why I am laughing out loud. One for each year. Its like a slap on the face of its and Schumi and Nico fans.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 2:33 pm 
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Sutton wrote:
you would have to hope so regards of a good car in 2013.

but one good car in every 10 years seems to be this teams way!

One championship challenging car in 13 years. Three race winning, two of those only winning a single race in that year mainly because other teams dropped the ball.

The stats don't look great.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 3:43 pm 
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stevey wrote:
Im wondering If Hamilton is planning to retire after the Merc Venture - be it victory or not.


I started musing on this very thought during the race on Sunday.

Lewis has always been very successful in the American races, he admits he loves the US and has an American girlfriend. Would it be completely out of the question for him to leave F1 in 2015 and join Indycar or one of the other American racing series?

His management company know they could 'do a Beckham' and get massive revenues and sponsorship deals, he would still be in his prime and I genuinely feel that if he doesn't get another title tilt in the next few years his eyes might start to wander.

He's arguably the most marketable man in the sport on an international level, and now he has the management to match...it wouldn't surprise me if a couple of years down the line we're talking about a 'shock' move to American racing.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 3:51 pm 
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w1Y! wrote:
Now the question is whether they have the team to go down the right path next year.


No one, including the team can predict that. In 2011 McLaren went the wrong way with their "octupus exhaust". Lotus messed up with their forward blown exhaust. Ferrari should have and could have designed a better car for 2012. Caterham went backwards this year compared to their rivals, Marussia. In 2009 Honda/Brawn hit a home run.

You never know until the cars take to the track, and by then it may be too late.

But over the last few years Brawn has been building up a strong team with some very talented people, such as Aldo Costa and Geoff Willis.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 4:00 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
w1Y! wrote:
Now the question is whether they have the team to go down the right path next year.


No one, including the team can predict that. In 2011 McLaren went the wrong way with their "octupus exhaust". Lotus messed up with their forward blown exhaust. Ferrari should have and could have designed a better car for 2012. Caterham went backwards this year compared to their rivals, Marussia. In 2009 Honda/Brawn hit a home run.

You never know until the cars take to the track, and by then it may be too late.

But over the last few years Brawn has been building up a strong team with some very talented people, such as Aldo Costa and Geoff Willis.


This

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 4:05 pm 
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Adaemus wrote:
stevey wrote:
Im wondering If Hamilton is planning to retire after the Merc Venture - be it victory or not.


I started musing on this very thought during the race on Sunday.

Lewis has always been very successful in the American races, he admits he loves the US and has an American girlfriend. Would it be completely out of the question for him to leave F1 in 2015 and join Indycar or one of the other American racing series?

His management company know they could 'do a Beckham' and get massive revenues and sponsorship deals, he would still be in his prime and I genuinely feel that if he doesn't get another title tilt in the next few years his eyes might start to wander.

He's arguably the most marketable man in the sport on an international level, and now he has the management to match...it wouldn't surprise me if a couple of years down the line we're talking about a 'shock' move to American racing.


Never thought about that. Could very well do so, why not?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 8:04 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
w1Y! wrote:
Now the question is whether they have the team to go down the right path next year.


No one, including the team can predict that. In 2011 McLaren went the wrong way with their "octupus exhaust". Lotus messed up with their forward blown exhaust. Ferrari should have and could have designed a better car for 2012. Caterham went backwards this year compared to their rivals, Marussia. In 2009 Honda/Brawn hit a home run.

You never know until the cars take to the track, and by then it may be too late.

But over the last few years Brawn has been building up a strong team with some very talented people, such as Aldo Costa and Geoff Willis.

But you forget that since 2010 top teams form doesn't change dramatically over the seasons. 2011 actually proves that McLaren was strong team. I can't predict the future, but I know the odds of some events. Unless I see Mercedes seriously challenging for titles, I would still claim that Ferrari/McLaren and Red Bull will be in title race next year. 2009 was anomaly and the conditions that allowed Honda/Brawn to build title winning car won't be present in 2013. 2014 is unknown territory for everyone, but 2013 isn't. With stable regulations teams before winning teams usually made some progress the year before too. Despite win Mercedes made no progress since 2010. They are getting worse every year. Maybe they will come back to 4th place in WCC, but this is all they can do in 2013.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 9:56 pm 
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Sutton wrote:
you would have to hope so regards of a good car in 2013.

but one good car in every 10 years seems to be this teams way!


still better than McLaren


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:00 pm 
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FormulaFun wrote:
Sutton wrote:
you would have to hope so regards of a good car in 2013.

but one good car in every 10 years seems to be this teams way!


still better than McLaren

Mercedes/Brawn/Honda/BAR have only challenged for one title (2009) in 13 years since they entered in 1999. They have won one title in 13 years.

McLaren have been challenging for the title in a half dozen seasons (1999/2000/2003/2005/2007/2008/2010) in the last 13 years since 1999. They have won two titles in 13 years.

So McLaren > Merc/Brawn/Honda/BAR since 1999. Simple facts.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:05 pm 
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lol hardly fair since you're going back to their first year in F1 by which time McLaren were already an established team, also they have won 2 titles, a WDC and a WCC


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:07 pm 
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I think they will have a decent car next year. What are mercedes problems? Red bull found huge pace with their front wing, now mclaren have a similar solution, merc have their ddrs which means they can't change their own front wing. So their front wing will be miles better next year. The coanda exhaust, I have heard rumours from a mercedes f1 employee that the reason for Schumacher's pace is that he coanda works well however it is more fuel hungry than other teams system. Schumacher had apparently an extra 20kg of fuel compared to everyone around him, if mercedes can sought this out they will have instantly have better race pace. Tyres, especially rear. Mercedes ddrs and coanda exhaust are overheating their tyres, in the cold it is desirable because it gets good heat into the tyres however when hot the tyres cook. This is what happened in Austin. The reason mercedes tyres are cooking is their side pod placement with their chassi, the fumes flow not quite correctly. They are preparing a new chassis next year according to Lauda, which means they should have better side pods for coanda. Also mercedes have not got the hang of getting into the correct operating window. The 2013 tyres will have a wider operating window.

So mercedes should have a better car next year.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:08 pm 
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FormulaFun wrote:
lol hardly fair since you're going back to their first year in F1 by which time McLaren were already an established team, also they have won 2 titles, a WDC and a WCC

Facts are facts. McLaren have been a better team than Mercedes in any of their forms since 1999. End of.

Since 2009 McLaren have won more races, had more poles, more fastest laps, more points.

People seem to forget that Merc's last title was 2009, McLaren's was only a year before, the way some of you go on you'd think McLaren haven't won a title since 1908.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:43 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
lol hardly fair since you're going back to their first year in F1 by which time McLaren were already an established team, also they have won 2 titles, a WDC and a WCC

Facts are facts. McLaren have been a better team than Mercedes in any of their forms since 1999. End of.

Since 2009 McLaren have won more races, had more poles, more fastest laps, more points.

People seem to forget that Merc's last title was 2009, McLaren's was only a year before, the way some of you go on you'd think McLaren haven't won a title since 1908.


well they are the worst of the top teams, the other fact is Merc and McLaren have the same amount of titles in the last 13 years


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:45 pm 
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FormulaFun wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
lol hardly fair since you're going back to their first year in F1 by which time McLaren were already an established team, also they have won 2 titles, a WDC and a WCC

Facts are facts. McLaren have been a better team than Mercedes in any of their forms since 1999. End of.

Since 2009 McLaren have won more races, had more poles, more fastest laps, more points.

People seem to forget that Merc's last title was 2009, McLaren's was only a year before, the way some of you go on you'd think McLaren haven't won a title since 1908.


well they are the worst of the top teams, the other fact is Merc and McLaren have the same amount of titles in the last 13 years

No, in the last 13 years McLaren have two titles, 1999 and 2008. Merc have one, 2009. That is a fact.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 8:11 am 
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there's also the point aswel that Norbert Haug adores Lewis, and i really think he will be pushing the team behind the scenes to get a good car sorted , i appreciate that all teams don't know what the cars are like until they hit the tarmac ,but with simulators and all the computer wizardry that they have at their disposel surely they have a good idea where they are likely to be


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 8:38 am 
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They will have a good car.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 8:45 am 
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They have written off this season and as it was plain to see at Austin they used the track for testing certain strategies. Unless Brawn produces something radical like the Double diffusers wherein, in the 1st half they gain the most points then they may have a chance, but I dont think thats gonna happen. The Merc has been competive at certain tracks this year and last and will be next year too. May even win an odd race. But to challenge the WCC and maybe the WDC it may take a while even with the best design team. I will not write them off completely. To give you an example, Ross Brawn and Rory Bryne took 5 to 6 yrs at Ferrari to win the WCC and even Adrian Newey took 5 yrs to bring RBR to where it is. So with time they certainly will. Dont expect miracles

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:48 am 
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Race2win wrote:
They have written off this season and as it was plain to see at Austin they used the track for testing certain strategies. Unless Brawn produces something radical like the Double diffusers wherein, in the 1st half they gain the most points then they may have a chance, but I dont think thats gonna happen. The Merc has been competive at certain tracks this year and last and will be next year too. May even win an odd race. But to challenge the WCC and maybe the WDC it may take a while even with the best design team. I will not write them off completely. To give you an example, Ross Brawn and Rory Bryne took 5 to 6 yrs at Ferrari to win the WCC and even Adrian Newey took 5 yrs to bring RBR to where it is. So with time they certainly will. Dont expect miracles


absolutely correct. the only possible chance for a 'jump' on the competition will be the new regs in 2014 - but whether anyone gets a significant 'jump' is a another story.........


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:00 am 
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Wonder how many times Mercedes will wnat to hear that, we have to give the season up?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 6:39 pm 
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i dont think they've given up on this season for 2013, i think they've given up this season and next season for 2014


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 6:59 pm 
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Have merc given up on this year's car? Yes

Is Merc's next year car going to be any good ? Probably not. History says the Brackley team aren't good at designing cars. They've had a good 2-3 years to do a decent job of it, and they haven't. That probably won't change come 2013

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:30 am 
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Mercedes does not spend anywhere near what redbull are spending. If they matched Redbulls budget im sure they would be at the front or very close to it. The million dollar que is why don't they?

If a drinks company can afford it why can't mercedes which is 10 times bigger with more to gain than a drinks company?

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:42 am 
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Peter77 wrote:
Mercedes does not spend anywhere near what redbull are spending. If they matched Redbulls budget im sure they would be at the front or very close to it. The million dollar que is why don't they?

If a drinks company can afford it why can't mercedes which is 10 times bigger with more to gain than a drinks company?

Money doesn't mean certain success, just ask Toyota and erm... the team Mercedes was only 4 years ago, Honda.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:45 am 
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if they doubled the staff and the budget they would definately be faster than they are now. As it stands they have a very low budget to compete. i heard they spending half what redbull are spending. If this is true its very difficult to win.

Does anybody know when was the last time a team with half the budget of the top teams won in F1?

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:22 am 
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This is the same thought that comes at the end if yet another disastrous year for merc. They do not have a good car till they have it. And we will know only after the next season starts.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:19 am 
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They seem to write off the year every year mid-season (and we can't say the next year car is any better).
But in fact they don't but should better do... They had a good car at the beginning of the year and had they written off the year after 4 races, they wouldn't have messed the development...

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:41 am 
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this reminds me a bit when Jacques . Good Debut season, same for LH, JV won in his second season, same with LH, and then JV left williams albeit williams was not a winning car when he left for BARm same with LH leaving a winning car for a team with supposed intelligence (RB) and bigger budget.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:52 am 
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Cracken wrote:
this reminds me a bit when Jacques . Good Debut season, same for LH, JV won in his second season, same with LH, and then JV left williams albeit williams was not a winning car when he left for BARm same with LH leaving a winning car for a team with supposed intelligence (RB) and bigger budget.


That's been said for years, that Lewis is following JV's steps all too closely! Too many similarities.

But to be honest, Lewis is 10 times the driver JV ever was, no comparison between them. Hopefully his decision to go to Merc will work out for him

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:23 pm 
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i hope so too


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