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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:50 pm 
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Theoretically speaking if Vettel was in 5th or below this weekend and Alonso was in 2nd, 3rd or 4th and needed the win, will any other the drivers help him?

I always thought there was a dislike of Vettel amongst the other drivers because all his WDC have been with the most superior car in the field and sometimes comes across as a spoilt brat. Any thoughts?


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:58 pm 
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No driver from another team would give up their own position to aid someones WDC (unless it's Vergne), they may not fight for the position as hard as they would with someone not in contention but they would still not make it easy for them. At the end of the day they are driving for their own team, not for Ferrari and it's not in their best interest to give up positions, especially when it comes to the podium places.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:04 pm 
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The championship is won over a season so to help Alonso gain places by letting him passed would be the most idiotic thing you could do as a driver.. The only help he'll get will be from Massa.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:53 pm 
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No driver is expected to lay down and roll over (with the exception of Massa). But which cars have Ferrari engines? I don't expect them to fight very hard against Alonso, but be the opposite with Vettel, make it very difficult, but legal. For Toro Rosso drivers, they are expected to fight hard against Alonso, and make life very easy for Vettel.

I doubt if any of this will come into play, Alonso and Vettel should be playing up front, and the only time any of them would encounter a Toro Rosso, or Sauber would be as backmarkers. To re-enforce that, I have no doubt that Whiting will speak to the Sauber and Toro Rosso drivers and read them the riot act, told them not to influence the title battle in any way.

It should be a non-issue.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:58 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
No driver is expected to lay down and roll over (with the exception of Massa). But which cars have Ferrari engines? I don't expect them to fight very hard against Alonso, but be the opposite with Vettel, make it very difficult, but legal. For Toro Rosso drivers, they are expected to fight hard against Alonso, and make life very easy for Vettel.

I doubt if any of this will come into play, Alonso and Vettel should be playing up front, and the only time any of them would encounter a Toro Rosso, or Sauber would be as backmarkers. To re-enforce that, I have no doubt that Whiting will speak to the Sauber and Toro Rosso drivers and read them the riot act, told them not to influence the title battle in any way.

It should be a non-issue.
I hope it is a non-issue, but in your Ferrari engine vs. Red Bull loyalty scenario which way does STR go? They run Ferrari engines, but Dieter pays the bills. :D


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:12 am 
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At least one driver disagreed with the OP.

http://www.inautonews.com/alonso-will-f ... KwbjNi5Us0
Quote:
But there are rumblings in the paddock that, although acknowledging Vettel’s advantage, most people in F1 would prefer if Alonso triumphs.
“I don’t think so,” Force India’s Nico Hulkenberg told Sport1. “Sebastian is very popular.”
“I think it’s just the psychological games that are always there in a championship fight. Red Bull is a good team with a good driver and a good crew.”


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:18 am 
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Why would any driver give up his win (barring Massa of course)? Everyone drives their own race and have their own careers to nurse, helping Alonso win would be the last thing on the minds of other drivers.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:32 am 
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no point helping seriously. the only way alonso can win it is Vettel DNF................


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:53 am 
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Correct me if I am wrong but I thought that would be against the regulations?
I thought somewhere that no driver is allowed to deliberatly chage the outcome of a race for anyone other than his teammate?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:54 am 
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Correct me if I am wrong but I thought that would be against the regulations?
I thought somewhere that no driver is allowed to deliberatly chage the outcome of a race for anyone other than his teammate?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 2:00 am 
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nope... they all race hard.... Hamilton helped him last week a ton just by fighting hard... the RB could have been pushed to breaking down or they could have crashed when he passed. Alonso on the other hand just did a walk in the park for 3rd with no pressure behind and did not seem to push ahead... played it safe for the most part.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:50 pm 
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Even Petrov in 6th place at Abu Dhabi 2010 didn't give Alonso way to overtake, can't expect drivers fighting for podium helping Alonso.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:53 pm 
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I don't think so, I agree that they're all fighting for every position.

Imagine the scandal and conspiracy calls if it appears one of the torro rosso or ferrari engine cars does change the outcome of the race! I can't wait!


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:55 pm 
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I think it'll be a case of everyone getting the hell out of the way of both drivers, which will be a shame.

I was surprised by how tentative Hamilton was in Austin, and he expressed earlier in that weekend that he didn't want to cause issues for either in the WDC. I guess no one really wants the "spoiler" tag.

I don't think the drivers necessarily would prefer Alonso to win it over Vettel anyway, it's not like Alonso is adored by all. Vettel is not as hated as some think, either.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:00 pm 
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Massa will help Alonso if he can.
Vergne and Ricciardo will help Vettel if they can, even though in their case it's more a case of moving away when needed rather than gearbox changes and such. They won't really be able to help much anyway, so it's a small issue.

All others will drive their own race, but will most likely try to stay away from trouble even more than usual if battling Vettel or Alonso.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:09 pm 
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i wouldnt be surprised if there is some 'flaw' in red bulls front wing or some crap like that to relegated Vettel to back of the grid again.
oh and Alonso to qualifying 9th or something.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:19 pm 
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Water wrote:
Massa will help Alonso if he can.
Vergne and Ricciardo will help Vettel if they can, even though in their case it's more a case of moving away when needed rather than gearbox changes and such. They won't really be able to help much anyway, so it's a small issue.

All others will drive their own race, but will most likely try to stay away from trouble even more than usual if battling Vettel or Alonso.

I'm getting nightmares of Alonso lapping a Toro Rosso

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:22 pm 
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RaggedMan wrote:
I hope it is a non-issue, but in your Ferrari engine vs. Red Bull loyalty scenario which way does STR go? They run Ferrari engines, but Dieter pays the bills. :D[/quote]

The relationship between STR and Ferrari is purely a business one. Marko has even criticized Ferrari for giving STR powerplants inferior to their own. As well, it's been reported that STR will switch to Renault engines in 2014.

But what happened in Jerez in 1997 had a huge impact on many.

Quote:
In 2006, Norberto Fontana claimed in an interview with the Argentinian newspaper Olé[18] that a few hours before the Grand Prix the Ferrari team director Jean Todt visited the Sauber motorhome and told the Swiss team, which used Ferrari engines at the time, that the Saubers must block Jacques Villeneuve if they were in a position to do so in order to help Michael Schumacher win the World Championship.
He did hold up Villeneuve during the race, but he lost his seat to never race again in Formula One.

Schumacher lost his standings in the 1997 WDC

Jerez never hosted a Grand Prix ever again.

The stigma of even being perceived as interfering is too great, the repercussions are too profound.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:25 pm 
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I reckon if a TR is getting lapped by alonso they will jump out of his way.

Red Bull won't want a sniff of "oh they used the other team to hinder"

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:47 pm 
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Well at Suzuka in 1998 everyone up to Hill pretty much let Schumacher past and back in 2007 I remember guys like Davidson literally let Hamilton through as he came through the pack.

On the other side of the coin Jenson was made to work really hard in 2009 with guys like Kobayashi and Grosjean fighting him hard, it really just depends if Alonso gets caught up in the pack but i reckon he will be top 5 in which case no one will just let him through

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:49 pm 
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Water wrote:
Massa will help Alonso if he can.
Vergne and Ricciardo will help Vettel if they can, even though in their case it's more a case of moving away when needed rather than gearbox changes and such. They won't really be able to help much anyway, so it's a small issue.

All others will drive their own race, but will most likely try to stay away from trouble even more than usual if battling Vettel or Alonso.

Ha i love the fact that you didnt mention that Webber will help Vettel but Vergne and Ricciardo will!

You watch, Webber will smash into Vettel!


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:52 pm 
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I fear that if Vettel is one place down on taking the title and a Toro Rosso is in front of him i think the Toro Rosso driver will be ordered to pull over and hand Vettel the title. If that does happen there would be huge uproar.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:58 pm 
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Nobody is expected to help Alonso (except Massa of course ), but none of the drivers with ambition to drive for Ferrari one day will do anything stupid to defend position if it comes to that.
Same with Vettel. Not many drivers will do anything stupid to keep Vettel behind them.
These 2 drivers drive for top 2 teams in F1. Nobody wants to make enemies of them by crashing into their driver in last championship decider race. But yes, good drivers wont just move out of the way.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 3:18 pm 
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Obviously Webber and Massa will do whatever they can (within the rules) to help their driver...

However, it's feasible if given the opportunity (meaning not being lapped or significantly off the pace), for someone like Schumacher to make it hard for Alonso to pass or Hamilton to make it hard for Vettel to pass. Schumacher would love for his fellow countryman and ROC-partner to win a 3rd title while defeating his former nemesis. Hamilton was the future star of F1 after his amazing 2007 season but in terms of records, Vettel has greatly overshadowed him and Hamilton has shown more respect to Alonso.

If the aforementioned were to take place, there's no reason for them to put up too huge of a fight unless Schumacher's Mercedes is actually competitive which is extremely unlikely.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 3:39 pm 
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Can we put Petrov in RoGro's place for just 1 race?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 4:00 pm 
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spooky wrote:
Water wrote:
Massa will help Alonso if he can.
Vergne and Ricciardo will help Vettel if they can, even though in their case it's more a case of moving away when needed rather than gearbox changes and such. They won't really be able to help much anyway, so it's a small issue.

All others will drive their own race, but will most likely try to stay away from trouble even more than usual if battling Vettel or Alonso.

Ha i love the fact that you didnt mention that Webber will help Vettel but Vergne and Ricciardo will!

You watch, Webber will smash into Vettel!


Believe it or not, I actually forgot to mention Webber. :blush:
He's also likely to help Vettel if absolutely necessary for the championship, but he's probably not going to move over for any other reason (like Massa would). There aren't too many other reasons for him to move over though... I also consider it likely for Vettel to be ahead of Webber, meaning Ricciardo and Vergne have more chance of helping him by being lapped more easily (or letting Vettel through after pitting etc.). :-P


Last edited by Water on Wed Nov 21, 2012 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 4:00 pm 
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specdecible wrote:
No driver from another team would give up their own position to aid someones WDC (unless it's Vergne), they may not fight for the position as hard as they would with someone not in contention but they would still not make it easy for them. At the end of the day they are driving for their own team, not for Ferrari and it's not in their best interest to give up positions, especially when it comes to the podium places.


I considered this the other way around. If a driver is going for top 5 points, he would be more likely to go wheel to wheel with Alonso, or Seb ('cept maybe STR :D ) as they would consider the other driver had more to lose and would give way a little. Points are still important to all drivers.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 4:09 pm 
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It's unlikely most drivers if in the position of passing Alonso or Vettel will care how it affects the outcome of the Championship.

If they decide to not pass because it'll affect the championship, then they have just affected the championship.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 4:14 pm 
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I expect only Massa will as if he dosnt help, his relationship with the team is dead as a dodo. Once drivers get onto he track I imagine it is every man for himself pretty much and a driver will mainly focus on his own race not someone elses. Mind you if the following situation happens on the first lap with Vettel only just behind and lets say Hamilton third. They come to a corner and Hamilton looses control and knows he is going to crash, he might hit Vettel because if Alonso wins the title that benefits him in terms of his reputation just like at Canada 2008 hitting Raikkonen instead of Heidfeld benefited his championship. Maybe if a frontrunner is running near the back for whatever reason with no chance of points and they see a driver they dont particularly like they will let them through less easily than one they get one with. Then of course there is Toro Rosso/Sauber who will help their brother teams although Perez is under no pressure to so seen as its his last race. Mclaren will also have the constructors championship in mind so certainly wont make life easy for Fernando.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 4:27 pm 
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From RBR point of view, the logical way to run the race would be to lock out the front row and let Seb get away. He should then be clear of anything mentioned here. However, to put a spanner in the works, What if Ferrari give Massa a suicide mission of start from the front and follow the plan, even if he only has fuel for 10 laps.

This is where other cars are more likely to be in the position of altering the order.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 4:33 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
No driver is expected to lay down and roll over (with the exception of Massa). But which cars have Ferrari engines? I don't expect them to fight very hard against Alonso, but be the opposite with Vettel, make it very difficult, but legal. For Toro Rosso drivers, they are expected to fight hard against Alonso, and make life very easy for Vettel.

I doubt if any of this will come into play, Alonso and Vettel should be playing up front, and the only time any of them would encounter a Toro Rosso, or Sauber would be as backmarkers. To re-enforce that, I have no doubt that Whiting will speak to the Sauber and Toro Rosso drivers and read them the riot act, told them not to influence the title battle in any way.

It should be a non-issue.


Yeah, because Sauber's haven't overtaken Alonso in the past... Oh wait a minute, they do it a lot...

Can people stop running the old Saubers allied with Ferrari please, it's out of date and recently been proven very wrong... This is from someone who doesn't particularly like Ferrari.

As for Toro Rosso & Red Bull, as you were....


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 4:35 pm 
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UBeenFrimponged wrote:
I fear that if Vettel is one place down on taking the title and a Toro Rosso is in front of him i think the Toro Rosso driver will be ordered to pull over and hand Vettel the title. If that does happen there would be huge uproar.


I hope that will happen, because Toro Rosso would get banned and we could have future seasons without them.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:06 pm 
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Where on earth do you get information that other drivers dislike him? Another mindless thread based off of personal hate


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:14 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
No driver is expected to lay down and roll over (with the exception of Massa). But which cars have Ferrari engines? I don't expect them to fight very hard against Alonso, but be the opposite with Vettel, make it very difficult, but legal. For Toro Rosso drivers, they are expected to fight hard against Alonso, and make life very easy for Vettel.

I doubt if any of this will come into play, Alonso and Vettel should be playing up front, and the only time any of them would encounter a Toro Rosso, or Sauber would be as backmarkers. To re-enforce that, I have no doubt that Whiting will speak to the Sauber and Toro Rosso drivers and read them the riot act, told them not to influence the title battle in any way.

It should be a non-issue.


Or Webber:

Now imagine that!!!!!!!

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 2:53 am 
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moby wrote:
specdecible wrote:
No driver from another team would give up their own position to aid someones WDC (unless it's Vergne), they may not fight for the position as hard as they would with someone not in contention but they would still not make it easy for them. At the end of the day they are driving for their own team, not for Ferrari and it's not in their best interest to give up positions, especially when it comes to the podium places.


I considered this the other way around. If a driver is going for top 5 points, he would be more likely to go wheel to wheel with Alonso, or Seb ('cept maybe STR :D ) as they would consider the other driver had more to lose and would give way a little. Points are still important to all drivers.


I agree, but Alonso has already stated that he will drive as if he had nothing to lose. So any driver willing to fight him into a corner will be fully aware that Alonso will not back out, they will have to blink first. Alonso does have nothing to lose, even if he finishes with no points, he will still be second in the WDC, being 54 ahead of Raikkonen in third.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 3:13 am 
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The ramifications of deliberately interfering or even being perceived to have deliberately interfered in the WDC battle are far too great IMO for any driver (other than teammates, of course) to consider doing it.

The driver could face severe sanctions from the FIA and they'd be risking being sacked from their own team. The driver could in theory be sued if there was a financial loss incurred, such as if Schumacher rammed Alonso out of the race for Vettel and ultimately that cost Mercedes fifth in the WCC to Sauber. And that driver would make countless enemies down the pitlane in other drivers and team management and would struggle to pursue their own career in the future.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:20 am 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
I agree, but Alonso has already stated that he will drive as if he had nothing to lose. So any driver willing to fight him into a corner will be fully aware that Alonso will not back out, they will have to blink first. Alonso does have nothing to lose, even if he finishes with no points, he will still be second in the WDC, being 54 ahead of Raikkonen in third.

So a Nico Hulkenberg or Mark Webber or Lewis Hamilton have more to lose than Alonso, yeah right :lol:


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:56 am 
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Webber will certainly help as he has done a few times already.

He is usually the hardest defender but as soon as Alonso is on his donkey , he waves him by !


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:02 pm 
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F1yer wrote:
Webber will certainly help as he has done a few times already.

He is usually the hardest defender but as soon as Alonso is on his donkey , he waves him by !





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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:41 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
moby wrote:
specdecible wrote:
No driver from another team would give up their own position to aid someones WDC (unless it's Vergne), they may not fight for the position as hard as they would with someone not in contention but they would still not make it easy for them. At the end of the day they are driving for their own team, not for Ferrari and it's not in their best interest to give up positions, especially when it comes to the podium places.


I considered this the other way around. If a driver is going for top 5 points, he would be more likely to go wheel to wheel with Alonso, or Seb ('cept maybe STR :D ) as they would consider the other driver had more to lose and would give way a little. Points are still important to all drivers.


I agree, but Alonso has already stated that he will drive as if he had nothing to lose. So any driver willing to fight him into a corner will be fully aware that Alonso will not back out, they will have to blink first. Alonso does have nothing to lose, even if he finishes with no points, he will still be second in the WDC, being 54 ahead of Raikkonen in third.


Actually that's far from reality. He didn't show any devil-may-acre attitude in 2010 against Petrov. I solely blame him for losing the WDC because he was driving way too cautiously. He had absolutely nothing to lose but yet he never made a good attempt against Petrov.


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