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 Post subject: Re: Farewell HRT
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:27 pm 
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Sad day for F1; They were sold a route into F1 that never materialised, Colin Kolles made a good fist of it but the financial types who pull the major strings have conspired to ruin it. Feel gutted for the regular workers and the mechanics, hopefully they will all find work with the other teams.


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 Post subject: Re: Farewell HRT
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:28 pm 
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Shame, sad to see them go. Some say they were an embarrassment, but it is not many who actually manage to get a car to the grid, let alone design and build it themselves.
They were not really that far of the pace, I remember Mclaren failing to qualify one Monaco, I think also Ferrari have fallen too.

I hope someone buys up the team and continues it, with enough cash this time though. They were promised they could run for 40 mil a season, so cant blame them.

I know Others disagree, but


Well done HRT. sorry to see you go

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 Post subject: Re: Farewell HRT
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:34 pm 
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zedd wrote:
They had all the money to build these fancy new headquarters but no money to continue racing ?


-That building was already there. They deal was with the city of Madrid (owner)for 1M €/year
-Thesan Capital is a Madrid-based investment company that purchased a controlling stake in the team. This kind of company buy other companies with financial problems (Vulture Fund). There was money. They decided to sell. This is what happens when you deal with such people/companies.

Im sorry for Pdl.

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 Post subject: Re: Farewell HRT
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:37 pm 
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mds wrote:
DarthVadar wrote:
Does anyone else feel if this happened in the 70's / 80's a championship winning team might have at least back handed the small teams some parts or even given them some advice rather than just put the small guys down?


Did that ever happen?
What I remember from the 80's was small teams coming and go all the time, battling each other to be on the grid. In 1989 we had prequalifying, where small teams were battling to even be able to take part in the qualifying. Aguri Suzuki failed to prequalify even a single time. We had 47 drivers in that season - there weren't enough good teams to give parts to the lesser teams ;)



here have a little read on this :

http://ucapusa.com/race_drivers_rob_walker.htm

that's what i mean about f1 losing that type of you know what i mean... ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Farewell HRT
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:45 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
Good. We dont need any new teams who can't afford to make a satisfactory campaign. I hope this DOES scare off anyone who thinks they can make a go of it with an inadequate budget.



But they did have the money for the deal they signed up to. that was/is the problem. The new teams signed up to a deal that included the budget cap.

And as far as I am aware once they signed failing to turn up when offered the spot meant paying a fine.

so it was either have a crack and hope it pans out or all the money on Prep and the FIA fine would be money tiddled down the pan.

As for the move and facilities I think that was forced upon them from what I remember that was actually cheaper than keep paying Colin Kolles for his services that included the facilities.

Then they should have done more to security enough cash to make a proper effort. I understand why they wanted Pdlr, and I normally don't like the idea of giving seats to the highest bidder, but I bet there's at least one well funded GP2/3/WSR/F3 kid out there who's cash would have made a big difference, or a development program willing to put up a lot of cash for a seat for one of their kids (ie Ricciardo). I obviously don't know the specifics of the sponsorship packages they put together, but from the outside it doesn't seem like they had much to offer, or were too picky. In their shoes I would take anything I could get. So what if xyz Spanish company offered me a quarter for the wing spot than what maximuscle pays mclaren? Take it! Those cars have been mostly naked all year.

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 Post subject: Re: Farewell HRT
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:52 pm 
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DarthVadar wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
DarthVadar wrote:
This is a tragedy to F1, I say this as HRT are a new team and this might mean new teams who wish to enter might not even bother.
Does anyone else feel if this happened in the 70's / 80's a championship winning team might have at least back handed the small teams some parts or even given them some advice rather than just put the small guys down?
Its a shame when ultra competitiveness takes over a sport which used to have such a good in it together spirit. For those that race/watch the lower divisions I am sure at some point a team has helped another team to go racing.
Does anyone else wish for those days back again rather than just calling others cucumbers?

Good. We dont need any new teams who can't afford to make a satisfactory campaign. I hope this DOES scare off anyone who thinks they can make a go of it with an inadequate budget.


My view on F1 and yours are very different, I feel F1 should be for everyone not just the Elite few, I feel if things keep trending like this we might end up like MOTOGP! Or even worse with 6 cars on the grid what an exciting prospect that is.
We lost Honda,BMW &Toyota. Rumours are Audi don't want anything to do with F1 so HRT were supposed to be the glimmer of light for new teams. As Audi and he rest have figured out to catch RedBull Ferrari and Mclaren you will need a bottomless budget over the course of 5 years and that is not going to happen.
Next year if Mercedes do not come up to scratch as a team they might leave as well, so this is why I say HRT is a tragedy as it might be the sounding of the bell of things to come, especially in the economic climate we live in.

F1 isn't for everyone. That's why its so hard to get on the grid. The sport will always go through highs and lows in terms of manufacturer participation. With the sportscar world falling apart its safe to say at least one big name is considering a return to F1. Audi has its hands full with its sportscar program, as does toyota. Honda isn't playing on as big a level, so they should have resources left. BMW most likely isn't looking to take on Audi and Toyota either, so they could be considering it. Porsche is abandoning its GT teams for an entire year to develop the next RSR - seems like they're working on something else.

There will always be a natural order in F1 and nobody wants to be at the tail end of it, so the smaller teams will always come and go, thats just how it is. What we need are more MEGA investments like that of Red Bull. We should all start lobbying Monster to get more involved with Merc, and Rockstar to buy the vacated grid spot. Bring battle of the energy drinks to F1 :) Then again, there's only so much top flight talent available to staff these teams, so you're still going to have an uphill battle ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Farewell HRT
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:56 pm 
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RIP HRT
Hope someone buys the burning remnants of this team and actually builds a team/car that can compete.


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 Post subject: Re: Farewell HRT
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 8:08 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
DarthVadar wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
DarthVadar wrote:
This is a tragedy to F1, I say this as HRT are a new team and this might mean new teams who wish to enter might not even bother.
Does anyone else feel if this happened in the 70's / 80's a championship winning team might have at least back handed the small teams some parts or even given them some advice rather than just put the small guys down?
Its a shame when ultra competitiveness takes over a sport which used to have such a good in it together spirit. For those that race/watch the lower divisions I am sure at some point a team has helped another team to go racing.
Does anyone else wish for those days back again rather than just calling others cucumbers?

Good. We dont need any new teams who can't afford to make a satisfactory campaign. I hope this DOES scare off anyone who thinks they can make a go of it with an inadequate budget.


My view on F1 and yours are very different, I feel F1 should be for everyone not just the Elite few, I feel if things keep trending like this we might end up like MOTOGP! Or even worse with 6 cars on the grid what an exciting prospect that is.
We lost Honda,BMW &Toyota. Rumours are Audi don't want anything to do with F1 so HRT were supposed to be the glimmer of light for new teams. As Audi and he rest have figured out to catch RedBull Ferrari and Mclaren you will need a bottomless budget over the course of 5 years and that is not going to happen.

Next year if Mercedes do not come up to scratch as a team they might leave as well, so this is why I say HRT is a tragedy as it might be the sounding of the bell of things to come, especially in the economic climate we live in.

F1 isn't for everyone. That's why its so hard to get on the grid. The sport will always go through highs and lows in terms of manufacturer participation. With the sportscar world falling apart its safe to say at least one big name is considering a return to F1. Audi has its hands full with its sportscar program, as does toyota. Honda isn't playing on as big a level, so they should have resources left. BMW most likely isn't looking to take on Audi and Toyota either, so they could be considering it. Porsche is abandoning its GT teams for an entire year to develop the next RSR - seems like they're working on something else.

There will always be a natural order in F1 and nobody wants to be at the tail end of it, so the smaller teams will always come and go, thats just how it is. What we need are more MEGA investments like that of Red Bull. We should all start lobbying Monster to get more involved with Merc, and Rockstar to buy the vacated grid spot. Bring battle of the energy drinks to F1 :) Then again, there's only so much top flight talent available to staff these teams, so you're still going to have an uphill battle ;)


Agreed Ashley its a shame F1 has gone down this direction but then again i guess that's why its the pinnacle of motorsport.
I still wished though that it would have kept its comaraderee ( not sure of spelling ). But I guess it is what it is RIP HRT. Goodluck to all the employees.


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 Post subject: Re: Farewell HRT
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 8:11 pm 
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Mr-E wrote:
Roman Abramovich probably shut them down..


He's bringing in their management team to run the club...

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 Post subject: Re: Farewell HRT
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 8:21 pm 
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RickM wrote:
Given how gherkin poor their management was, they probably spent all the cash they had on the HQ (which they rent - they dont own) and left nothing for everything else.

Not really. They were run by investment fund that was never interested in running this team. Aim was to sell it with profit. If you spend on car development instead of trying to set up the actual in-house design team, they money will be gone next year. The new HQ allowed to add real value to company.

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 Post subject: Re: Farewell HRT
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 8:23 pm 
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Mixed feelings here.

They did not put any lasting mark on F1, making themselves of a textbook failure, interfered a couple of times with frontrunners, but seeing any F1 team die is not a joyful event.

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 Post subject: Re: Farewell HRT
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 8:25 pm 
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Bakerking31 wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
SwSpeed wrote:
Senna88 wrote:
Cannot wait to see the mobile chicanes gone, they have ruined some many people's races (although I still have a lot of respect for PDLR)


I would not say that. I hope there would be more teams in F1.
F1 is in urgent need of cost cuts.

I'd rather see fewer teams than see innovation stifled by further cost cutting. F1 SHOULD be expensive, that's what makes it great. Spending millions for tenths.

:thumbup: :nod:


Yeah, right in a perfect world. Unforunately this world is not perfect.
The reality proven that play drivers will enter the markernas well as more teams are rumored to be in financial trouble.

Add Merc to the play, now they got Hamilton and we got few years... If they don't succeed who's gonna pay the bills.

3-4 teams are in danger, how many cars is that?

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 Post subject: Re: Farewell HRT
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 8:42 pm 
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Which other teams are "in danger"? We don't have any facts about Lotus, and Merc changing to AMG or even losing the branding entirely isn't a death sentence.

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 Post subject: Re: Farewell HRT
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 8:57 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
Then they should have done more to security enough cash to make a proper effort. I understand why they wanted Pdlr, and I normally don't like the idea of giving seats to the highest bidder, but I bet there's at least one well funded GP2/3/WSR/F3 kid out there who's cash would have made a big difference, or a development program willing to put up a lot of cash for a seat for one of their kids (ie Ricciardo). I obviously don't know the specifics of the sponsorship packages they put together, but from the outside it doesn't seem like they had much to offer, or were too picky. In their shoes I would take anything I could get. So what if xyz Spanish company offered me a quarter for the wing spot than what maximuscle pays mclaren? Take it! Those cars have been mostly naked all year.


They did have enough cash for a proper effort, for the rules that were supposed to be implemented. But then Mosley changed the rules. By that time they had already signed on the dotted line it was too late to back out.

Basically they got a quote, signed the contract and then the price went up. They had signed the deal so it was go through or get nothing at all for the money already put in plus a bill from the FIA.

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 Post subject: Re: Farewell HRT
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 8:58 pm 
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moby wrote:
Shame, sad to see them go. Some say they were an embarrassment, but it is not many who actually manage to get a car to the grid, let alone design and build it themselves.
They were not really that far of the pace, I remember Mclaren failing to qualify one Monaco, I think also Ferrari have fallen too.

I hope someone buys up the team and continues it, with enough cash this time though. They were promised they could run for 40 mil a season, so cant blame them.

I know Others disagree, but


Well done HRT. sorry to see you go


FYI - they didn't design or build the car in the traditional sense. It's still just a heavily modified Dallara design.

Dallara built the 2010 car, and the 2011 and 2012 car was basically the same design, but updated to meet the regulations.

Interestingly they nearly bought the Toyota TF110 (Toyotas unused 2010 car) but couldn't make the payments for it, so instead they had the 'Hispania F111', which under the hood is basically a mashup of the Dallara design, and the Toyota TF110 as HRT were given access to it's design plans for a short period of time - enough time to take a bunch of ideas from it.

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 Post subject: Re: Farewell HRT
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 8:59 pm 
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I think it's a shame when any team closes. I'm not a fan of HRT, but I would have liked to see them improve, same for the other two out in No-Mans-Land.


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 Post subject: Re: Farewell HRT
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 9:08 pm 
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RickM wrote:
moby wrote:
Shame, sad to see them go. Some say they were an embarrassment, but it is not many who actually manage to get a car to the grid, let alone design and build it themselves.
They were not really that far of the pace, I remember Mclaren failing to qualify one Monaco, I think also Ferrari have fallen too.

I hope someone buys up the team and continues it, with enough cash this time though. They were promised they could run for 40 mil a season, so cant blame them.

I know Others disagree, but


Well done HRT. sorry to see you go


FYI - they didn't design or build the car in the traditional sense. It's still just a heavily modified Dallara design.

Dallara built the 2010 car, and the 2011 and 2012 car was basically the same design, but updated to meet the regulations.

Interestingly they nearly bought the Toyota TF110 (Toyotas unused 2010 car) but couldn't make the payments for it, so instead they had the 'Hispania F111', which under the hood is basically a mashup of the Dallara design, and the Toyota TF110 as HRT were given access to it's design plans for a short period of time - enough time to take a bunch of ideas from it.


I knew they started off with a Dalara, but thought they later years, built their own. Maby it was just 'bodywork.?

Which ever, as I said, I am sad to see them go. No problem at all with them being taken over, just there are so few each one gone is a whole development area of personnel and drivers.

Quality not quantity is a fine slogan, but I remember when there were 18 car grids, and when there were 28 car grids, and I know which was best.

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 Post subject: Re: Farewell HRT
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 9:24 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
Which other teams are "in danger"? We don't have any facts about Lotus, and Merc changing to AMG or even losing the branding entirely isn't a death sentence.


This is speculation but here are some candidates based on public information, the last years.

RB wants to get rid of TR. This has been on news for long. For some reason there are no deals going on. Possible shutdown
Merc was threatening to pull off the series. I think Ross saved it by signing Lewis. Another possible Toyota.
Caterham is in trouble this year because they likely lose the valuable 10th position and lose the price money maybe forced to take on another pay driver to save some costs.
Lotus is now rumored be be in financial trouble
Force India was rumored to be on trouble because the owners business is bad. I know they got some funds which will hold on for a while 2013 will show the real status.
Marussia status is unknown but I suspect the outfit bleeds deep.

So how many cars are that?

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 Post subject: Re: Farewell HRT
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 9:34 pm 
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Bye Bye.

Now I hope the FIA will open up the selection process for 2014, and we can get a new team who will have a competent structure. No more failures like USF1 or HRT.


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 Post subject: Re: Farewell HRT
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 9:38 pm 
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Its a shame, they were sold a dream only to have it snatched away. Its the same for Marussia and Caterham, they were just lucky enough to find enough funding to go further.

I don't think its fair to be glad they're gone, because they earned their right to be on the grid, kept within 107% of the front runners - so were perfectly entitled to go racing. I do wonder what some of you would have been saying 10-12 years ago about Minardi - if it weren't for them we probably wouldn't have Alonso fighting for the championship this weekend....

Hopefully someone will come in for 2014.

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 Post subject: Re: Farewell HRT
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 9:44 pm 
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Seanie wrote:
Its a shame, they were sold a dream only to have it snatched away. Its the same for Marussia and Caterham, they were just lucky enough to find enough funding to go further.

I don't think its fair to be glad they're gone, because they earned their right to be on the grid, kept within 107% of the front runners - so were perfectly entitled to go racing. I do wonder what some of you would have been saying 10-12 years ago about Minardi - if it weren't for them we probably wouldn't have Alonso fighting for the championship this weekend....

Hopefully someone will come in for 2014.


I wouldn't put HRT in the same league as Minardi.

Minardi actually had a lot of passion for racing and finding young talented drivers, HRT only hired drivers who had the most sponsorship. Minardi had a tiny budget, but they often had cars which had good design, their poor engines let them down a bit.


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 Post subject: Re: Farewell HRT
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 9:46 pm 
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hd23 wrote:
Seanie wrote:
Its a shame, they were sold a dream only to have it snatched away. Its the same for Marussia and Caterham, they were just lucky enough to find enough funding to go further.

I don't think its fair to be glad they're gone, because they earned their right to be on the grid, kept within 107% of the front runners - so were perfectly entitled to go racing. I do wonder what some of you would have been saying 10-12 years ago about Minardi - if it weren't for them we probably wouldn't have Alonso fighting for the championship this weekend....

Hopefully someone will come in for 2014.


I wouldn't put HRT in the same league as Minardi.

Minardi actually had a lot of passion for racing and finding young talented drivers, HRT only hired drivers who had the most sponsorship. Minardi had a tiny budget, but they often had cars which had good design, their poor engines let them down a bit.

I think you're looking back through history with rose tinted specticals. Good cars with poor engines? :o

How much did they pay Fernando for his services.... :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Farewell HRT
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 9:50 pm 
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hd23 wrote:

I wouldn't put HRT in the same league as Minardi.

Minardi actually had a lot of passion for racing and finding young talented drivers, HRT only hired drivers who had the most sponsorship. Minardi had a tiny budget, but they often had cars which had good design, their poor engines let them down a bit.



You do know all those young talented drivers got their minardi seat because they were paying the best money don't you?

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 Post subject: Re: Farewell HRT
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 9:58 pm 
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Seanie wrote:
I don't think its fair to be glad they're gone, because they earned their right to be on the grid, kept within 107% of the front runners


Well, in Q1, on soft tyres with the top runners setting their fastest times on hard tyres (not going all-out)... The 107% rule would make more sense when every time is compared to the actual pole time. I think, e.g., NK wouldn't have run in Austin because his time was outside of the 107% of the pole time.


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 Post subject: Re: Farewell HRT
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:01 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
I don't think you can really blame HRT or any of the new deals, they were sold something like a 40mill budget cap to run on by Max. Who then renegated on that part of the deal.

Not easy for a new team to find 2 or maybe 3 times that figure to compete.

For the three newbies the goal posts were moved somewhat after signing up.


Spot on.


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 Post subject: Re: Farewell HRT
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:18 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
Then they should have done more to security enough cash to make a proper effort. I understand why they wanted Pdlr, and I normally don't like the idea of giving seats to the highest bidder, but I bet there's at least one well funded GP2/3/WSR/F3 kid out there who's cash would have made a big difference, or a development program willing to put up a lot of cash for a seat for one of their kids (ie Ricciardo). I obviously don't know the specifics of the sponsorship packages they put together, but from the outside it doesn't seem like they had much to offer, or were too picky. In their shoes I would take anything I could get. So what if xyz Spanish company offered me a quarter for the wing spot than what maximuscle pays mclaren? Take it! Those cars have been mostly naked all year.


They did have enough cash for a proper effort, for the rules that were supposed to be implemented. But then Mosley changed the rules. By that time they had already signed on the dotted line it was too late to back out.

Basically they got a quote, signed the contract and then the price went up. They had signed the deal so it was go through or get nothing at all for the money already put in plus a bill from the FIA.

I get that. But once you know what you have isn't enough (regardless of WHY your figure is now deficient) you need to do anything possible to get closer to the figure needed. I'm not impressed with their apparent efforts.

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 Post subject: Re: Farewell HRT
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:24 pm 
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SwSpeed wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
Which other teams are "in danger"? We don't have any facts about Lotus, and Merc changing to AMG or even losing the branding entirely isn't a death sentence.


This is speculation but here are some candidates based on public information, the last years.

RB wants to get rid of TR. This has been on news for long. For some reason there are no deals going on. Possible shutdown
Merc was threatening to pull off the series. I think Ross saved it by signing Lewis. Another possible Toyota.
Caterham is in trouble this year because they likely lose the valuable 10th position and lose the price money maybe forced to take on another pay driver to save some costs.
Lotus is now rumored be be in financial trouble
Force India was rumored to be on trouble because the owners business is bad. I know they got some funds which will hold on for a while 2013 will show the real status.
Marussia status is unknown but I suspect the outfit bleeds deep.

So how many cars are that?

Thats all speculation based on nothing. Just because STR is for sale (it has been for a long time) doesn't mean it will be shut down if not purchased. Its still incredibly useful to RBR for driver development. The only substantiated news from Merc is that they will be AMG next year. No mention of leaving. Do you really think Lewis would go there if things didn't look solid? There is PLENTY of money behind Caterham. Their expanded road car program and new deal with Renault to build the Alpine are testament to a relationship with a decent future ahead. Force India F1 is a separate entity from the Kingfisher branded beer and airline companies. One that is also funded heavily by Sahara. They at no time this year have shown signs of being in financial trouble. They just voted to invest more. Marussia has posted losses but has not at all sounded like thats a problem for them. They are about to welcome a big check from the Chilton family anyway.

I don't see any evidence of any other team being in danger of disappearing any time soon.

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 Post subject: Re: Farewell HRT
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:51 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:


I get that. But once you know what you have isn't enough (regardless of WHY your figure is now deficient) you need to do anything possible to get closer to the figure needed. I'm not impressed with their apparent efforts.



an extra 40mill+ isn't an easy thing to find in the middle of a global recession.

Remember Fernandes has been using his other businesses to get deals, Branson bailed because he didn't want to pump in extra money.

Even Macca is starting to get it tight.

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 Post subject: Re: Farewell HRT
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:20 pm 
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Yeah, 40 is a big sum, but to me it seems they don't have any major partners besides TATA. It can't be THAT hard to get a bit more cash. I think the whole spanish nationalism thing has hurt them in finding more investment. As has their driver choices.

McLaren has shot themselves in the foot a bit with their silly performance ups and downs and the driver drama. They should be all good now with that Checo Cash though ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Farewell HRT
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:26 pm 
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The Spanish thing was probably a good idea at the time. Tap into that nationalistic pride etc. Sadly the pickle dropped out of that market.

Kinda hope they don't go. I know they aren't the best. But 2 out of 3 years they haven't been the worst ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Farewell HRT
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:33 pm 
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I'd love to see someone with real cash bail them out but it doesn't seem like thats going to happen in time to get on the grid next year. We could all throw in ten bucks to keep the lights on at HQ and offer the employees shares..... PlanetF1 Forum F1

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 Post subject: Re: Farewell HRT
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:49 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
I'd love to see someone with real cash bail them out but it doesn't seem like thats going to happen in time to get on the grid next year. We could all throw in ten bucks to keep the lights on at HQ and offer the employees shares..... PlanetF1 Forum F1

Sorry but of I'm going to be involved in owning an F1 team it's going to have to be called "HOW F1", and its full/long name would be "Webber Bombing HOW Formula 1 Team"

:p

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 Post subject: Re: Farewell HRT
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:51 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
I'd love to see someone with real cash bail them out but it doesn't seem like thats going to happen in time to get on the grid next year. We could all throw in ten bucks to keep the lights on at HQ and offer the employees shares..... PlanetF1 Forum F1

Do you think we'd ever be able to pick two drivers though? Or settle on strategy? Or agree on a livery? :-P

Being serious though I'd like a new manufacturer to enter the sport just in time for 2014. Use 2013 solely as a bedding in year, no expectations just letting staff and drivers get their teeth into F1 before getting serious in 2014 and pushing towards the front. Someone like VW or even Ford.

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 Post subject: Re: Farewell HRT
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:00 am 
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We can make all decisions solely via forum poll results.

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 Post subject: Re: Farewell HRT
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:08 am 
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ashley313 wrote:
We can make all decisions solely via forum poll results.

Sorted. Sato for everything it is. :]

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 Post subject: Re: Farewell HRT
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:50 am 
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Do Red Bull really still want to sell STR? I know it's something of an annual tradition for Joe Saward to run that story but I haven't seen it mentioned in recent years by anyone else. I don't think that they should be allowed a junior team, but I don't believe they still want to get rid of it - they don't have enough seats for all their junior drivers as it is.

People being made redundant can never be a good thing, but I won't miss HRT either. Quality is more important than quantity - 10 strong teams in 2009 didn't take away from the spectacle at all.

Whilst 3 years is better than I think anyone expected, the Thesan approach was never going to work. It was only under Kolles that the team was semi-respectable. And with all due respect to de la Rosa, signing him never made sense either. There's no point having a driver who is good at development if you have no money to develop the car with.

Off the top of my head, with him likely gone am I right in thinking that the three eldest drivers next season will be Webber, Raikkonen and Button? Crikey, that could make one feel quite old! No more drivers from the 90s...


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 Post subject: Re: Farewell HRT
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:58 am 
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KateLM wrote:
Do Red Bull really still want to sell STR? I know it's something of an annual tradition for Joe Saward to run that story but I haven't seen it mentioned in recent years by anyone else. I don't think that they should be allowed a junior team, but I don't believe they still want to get rid of it - they don't have enough seats for all their junior drivers as it is.

People being made redundant can never be a good thing, but I won't miss HRT either. Quality is more important than quantity - 10 strong teams in 2009 didn't take away from the spectacle at all.

Whilst 3 years is better than I think anyone expected, the Thesan approach was never going to work. It was only under Kolles that the team was semi-respectable. And with all due respect to de la Rosa, signing him never made sense either. There's no point having a driver who is good at development if you have no money to develop the car with.

Off the top of my head, with him likely gone am I right in thinking that the three eldest drivers next season will be Webber, Raikkonen and Button? Crikey, that could make one feel quite old! No more drivers from the 90s...

Webber will be the oldest, Button the most experienced.

Jenson Button will be the most experienced driver on the F1 grid next year. That terrifies me. Simply because I remember the start of his career as clear as a bell and the hype around him. Back then, as a ten year old, I never even gave a thought that he might still be around when I was 21, he made his debut at 20. Gah.

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 Post subject: Re: Farewell HRT
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 1:12 am 
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Button debuted in 2000
Kimi and Alonso in 2001
Webber and Massa in 2002

After that in think the next debut from the current drivers was Glock in 2004.

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 Post subject: Re: Farewell HRT
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 1:28 am 
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Banana Man wrote:
Button debuted in 2000
Kimi and Alonso in 2001
Webber and Massa in 2002

After that in think the next debut from the current drivers was Glock in 2004.

So, (if we don't include Schumacher because he's leaving and both HRT drivers because they probably won't be on the grid in 2013)

Button - 2000
Raikkonen, Alonso - 2001
Webber, Massa - 2002
Glock - 2004
Rosberg - 2006
Hamilton, Kovalainen, Vettel - 2007
Kobayashi, Grosjean - 2009
Petrov, Senna, Hulkenburg - 2010
Ricciardo, Maldonado, Di Resta, Perez - 2011
Vergne, Pic - 2012

There's a ten year age and debut gap between Button and Perez yet you probably wouldn't want to believe it.

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 Post subject: Re: Farewell HRT
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 2:07 am 
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Yeah Button will be the most experienced, but I believe Alonso and Webber will be tied second in terms of races because of Alonso being a test driver in 2002 (and Kimi's sabbatical, and Massa missing 2003/half of 2009) - both will celebrate their 200th GP next year I believe, but I can't recall which race it will be at.

It just seems weird that the new young hopes from 2000-2002 are now the elder statesmen! In hindsight the next generation to make their mark were the 2006-2007 bunch. Funny how these things are cyclical.

That all being said, Super Pedro hasn't exactly got a huge flush of race starts to his name :-P


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