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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 3:54 pm 
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kai_ wrote:
Kazuo wrote:
FAQ in the web said, if Kamui fails to land a seat next year, the money will not be returned to the donors and be used for the activities for acquiring 2014 seats. And the web front page said, all proceeds of "Kamui Support" will be used towards Kamui Kobayashi's efforts in securing a seat.

I understand the situation of child protection in your country. At least in Japan this would not be big problem.


I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at with child protection.

Children are children everywhere and they are not capable of making informed choices and decisions in the same way that adults are. Science shows this with regards to development of the brain. To suggest that in Japan there is no such thing as a parent who wouldn't know what their child is doing is laughable - there are irresponsible, naive parents everywhere in the world and children act on their own frolics everywhere in the world. So those measures are necessary regardless of what might be thought of the culture. If what you were saying was true, Japan would have no laws or regulations regarding issues of child consent, and they do.

With regards to what NSX-R said about who filmed the children in the first place, that's fine in that situation, but it doesn't indicate anything with regards to the appeal's policies on accepting donations from children generally.

From a general perspective, I am apprehensive about that appeal because I am not confident that it has in place all the relevant protections for people donating their money. There seems to be a large reliance on Kobayashi being a 'nice, trustworthy, genuine' guy. Where on the site are the legalities discussed or where is there information about where this can be obtained? Such as: under what legal authority it has been set up; how the money is held and who controls that money; the specifics of its utilisation ("efforts to land a seat" is vague). If it doesn't have those things in place then it is a. not legitimate even if it's genuine and b. opens the door for people to be taken advantage of under false pretences.

All of these things are very relevant to any sort of appeal for money.


That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. The Japanese don't operate that way and I don't blame you for not "getting it". Maybe this kind of dogged determination to "get my money's worth" mentality is why they don't want donations from overseas.

I don't understand why we keep arguing about getting a refund if he doesn't get a drive. When you give to a cause, you're doing it because you believe in something, not because you expect a return on your investment.

We all value our money and when I make an *investment*, I do it under the assumption that I'm going to get something in return. When I make a *donation*, I don't give a second thought to whether I'll get my money back or not. I'm doing it for a cause.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:28 pm 
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Rumster wrote:
Watching him do his do or die passes is certainly worth more to me than a couple more beers down the pub on Friday night.

It's funny how everyone always use the "worth no more than a couple of beers" phrase as a yardstick to justify their spending. I guess one must be one hell of a beer consumer to be able to use that comparison with every expenditure all the time. Assuming one is counting it towards a zero-sum game.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 5:16 pm 
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I find it kinda sad he's asking people to donate money so he can do something he enjoys. Doesn't he have management he pays to find him drives and sponsors?

Asking his fans to buy his way into a drive for next year is ridiculous. Will his management be taking 20% of whats recouped?

I fancy staying in bed next year, for a whole year, I'm really good at it as well, anyone fancy donating so I can achieve my 2013 dream????

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 9:21 pm 
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froze wrote:
Rumster wrote:
Watching him do his do or die passes is certainly worth more to me than a couple more beers down the pub on Friday night.

It's funny how everyone always use the "worth no more than a couple of beers" phrase as a yardstick to justify their spending. I guess one must be one hell of a beer consumer to be able to use that comparison with every expenditure all the time. Assuming one is counting it towards a zero-sum game.


The reason every one uses an analogy similar to this is to show exactly what small change it really is. I could have said another Hamburger, or another bottle of wine or something similar. The point is, it's worth more to me to spend a small amount like that in order for me to get some enjoyment that I would otherwise miss out on if he doesn't get a drive. If enough people feel the same way he'll get plenty of money to continue racing.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 9:44 pm 
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yeah Kobayashi to Lotus!!! Hope it happens!


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:23 am 
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racer_nobu wrote:
kai_ wrote:
Kazuo wrote:
FAQ in the web said, if Kamui fails to land a seat next year, the money will not be returned to the donors and be used for the activities for acquiring 2014 seats. And the web front page said, all proceeds of "Kamui Support" will be used towards Kamui Kobayashi's efforts in securing a seat.

I understand the situation of child protection in your country. At least in Japan this would not be big problem.


I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at with child protection.

Children are children everywhere and they are not capable of making informed choices and decisions in the same way that adults are. Science shows this with regards to development of the brain. To suggest that in Japan there is no such thing as a parent who wouldn't know what their child is doing is laughable - there are irresponsible, naive parents everywhere in the world and children act on their own frolics everywhere in the world. So those measures are necessary regardless of what might be thought of the culture. If what you were saying was true, Japan would have no laws or regulations regarding issues of child consent, and they do.

With regards to what NSX-R said about who filmed the children in the first place, that's fine in that situation, but it doesn't indicate anything with regards to the appeal's policies on accepting donations from children generally.

From a general perspective, I am apprehensive about that appeal because I am not confident that it has in place all the relevant protections for people donating their money. There seems to be a large reliance on Kobayashi being a 'nice, trustworthy, genuine' guy. Where on the site are the legalities discussed or where is there information about where this can be obtained? Such as: under what legal authority it has been set up; how the money is held and who controls that money; the specifics of its utilisation ("efforts to land a seat" is vague). If it doesn't have those things in place then it is a. not legitimate even if it's genuine and b. opens the door for people to be taken advantage of under false pretences.

All of these things are very relevant to any sort of appeal for money.


That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. The Japanese don't operate that way and I don't blame you for not "getting it". Maybe this kind of dogged determination to "get my money's worth" mentality is why they don't want donations from overseas.

I don't understand why we keep arguing about getting a refund if he doesn't get a drive. When you give to a cause, you're doing it because you believe in something, not because you expect a return on your investment.

We all value our money and when I make an *investment*, I do it under the assumption that I'm going to get something in return. When I make a *donation*, I don't give a second thought to whether I'll get my money back or not. I'm doing it for a cause.

It's got nothing to do with 'getting my money's' worth. It's got to do with people having the right to make informed choices.

This means assurances that the money that is being provided is going to exactly where people believe it is going. That is a requirement of any appeal or indeed any request for money. All charities, foundations, appeals and organisations are required to track and record money that is given to them and how it is spent and they must ensure that it goes to the purpose for which people are donating.

Take the Tsunami appeal, for example. People assumed that their money would be going directly to the individuals and communities who were affected. When it was discovered that some of it wasn't actually there was quite a lot of fuss and understandably so. People weren't about 'getting their money's worth' but about knowing they had genuinely helped.

The only way this can be achieved is with the relevant legalities taken care of. This is a requirement in Japan as much as it is in the country in which I reside (I checked). It's not enough to just expect people to donate based on the vague notion of 'it's for Kobayashi to get a drive' and 'your money will be used properly because Kobayashi and the people behind him are decent and honourable'.

Again taking the Tsunami appeal. Individuals who donated gave that money based on the assumption that the organisations asking for it were 'decent and honourable'. Hey, they wanted to help people so they must be, right? Wrong.

Things are funny when it comes to money.

Now the realities of the way the world works aside, I personally have trouble with the notion that Kobayashi is asking for people to give him money for a race drive without indicating what of his own money he will put forward. He's giving people the impression that he needs that money, but does he? How much has he earned since he was employed in Formula 1? How many investments does he have and what are these worth? As far as I'm concerned unless he's making himself destitute to get this drive as well then he doesn't actually need the money and is looking as much as anything to get money from people to sustain his lifestyle.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:34 am 
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kai_ wrote:
racer_nobu wrote:
kai_ wrote:
Kazuo wrote:
FAQ in the web said, if Kamui fails to land a seat next year, the money will not be returned to the donors and be used for the activities for acquiring 2014 seats. And the web front page said, all proceeds of "Kamui Support" will be used towards Kamui Kobayashi's efforts in securing a seat.

I understand the situation of child protection in your country. At least in Japan this would not be big problem.


I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at with child protection.

Children are children everywhere and they are not capable of making informed choices and decisions in the same way that adults are. Science shows this with regards to development of the brain. To suggest that in Japan there is no such thing as a parent who wouldn't know what their child is doing is laughable - there are irresponsible, naive parents everywhere in the world and children act on their own frolics everywhere in the world. So those measures are necessary regardless of what might be thought of the culture. If what you were saying was true, Japan would have no laws or regulations regarding issues of child consent, and they do.

With regards to what NSX-R said about who filmed the children in the first place, that's fine in that situation, but it doesn't indicate anything with regards to the appeal's policies on accepting donations from children generally.

From a general perspective, I am apprehensive about that appeal because I am not confident that it has in place all the relevant protections for people donating their money. There seems to be a large reliance on Kobayashi being a 'nice, trustworthy, genuine' guy. Where on the site are the legalities discussed or where is there information about where this can be obtained? Such as: under what legal authority it has been set up; how the money is held and who controls that money; the specifics of its utilisation ("efforts to land a seat" is vague). If it doesn't have those things in place then it is a. not legitimate even if it's genuine and b. opens the door for people to be taken advantage of under false pretences.

All of these things are very relevant to any sort of appeal for money.


That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. The Japanese don't operate that way and I don't blame you for not "getting it". Maybe this kind of dogged determination to "get my money's worth" mentality is why they don't want donations from overseas.

I don't understand why we keep arguing about getting a refund if he doesn't get a drive. When you give to a cause, you're doing it because you believe in something, not because you expect a return on your investment.

We all value our money and when I make an *investment*, I do it under the assumption that I'm going to get something in return. When I make a *donation*, I don't give a second thought to whether I'll get my money back or not. I'm doing it for a cause.

It's got nothing to do with 'getting my money's' worth. It's got to do with people having the right to make informed choices.

This means assurances that the money that is being provided is going to exactly where people believe it is going. That is a requirement of any appeal or indeed any request for money. All charities, foundations, appeals and organisations are required to track and record money that is given to them and how it is spent and they must ensure that it goes to the purpose for which people are donating.

Take the Tsunami appeal, for example. People assumed that their money would be going directly to the individuals and communities who were affected. When it was discovered that some of it wasn't actually there was quite a lot of fuss and understandably so. People weren't about 'getting their money's worth' but about knowing they had genuinely helped.

The only way this can be achieved is with the relevant legalities taken care of. This is a requirement in Japan as much as it is in the country in which I reside (I checked). It's not enough to just expect people to donate based on the vague notion of 'it's for Kobayashi to get a drive' and 'your money will be used properly because Kobayashi and the people behind him are decent and honourable'.

Again taking the Tsunami appeal. Individuals who donated gave that money based on the assumption that the organisations asking for it were 'decent and honourable'. Hey, they wanted to help people so they must be, right? Wrong.

Things are funny when it comes to money.

Now the realities of the way the world works aside, I personally have trouble with the notion that Kobayashi is asking for people to give him money for a race drive without indicating what of his own money he will put forward. He's giving people the impression that he needs that money, but does he? How much has he earned since he was employed in Formula 1? How many investments does he have and what are these worth? As far as I'm concerned unless he's making himself destitute to get this drive as well then he doesn't actually need the money and is looking as much as anything to get money from people to sustain his lifestyle.


ok. Moving on.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:52 am 
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racer_nobu wrote:
That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. The Japanese don't operate that way and I don't blame you for not "getting it". Maybe this kind of dogged determination to "get my money's worth" mentality is why they don't want donations from overseas.

I don't understand why we keep arguing about getting a refund if he doesn't get a drive. When you give to a cause, you're doing it because you believe in something, not because you expect a return on your investment.

We all value our money and when I make an *investment*, I do it under the assumption that I'm going to get something in return. When I make a *donation*, I don't give a second thought to whether I'll get my money back or not. I'm doing it for a cause.

That's kind of the issue, the 'cause' is a man driving a car around a road. Objectively, I don't think it would qualify as 'good cause' for the purposes of public fundraising akin to a charity.

kai_ wrote:
Now the realities of the way the world works aside, I personally have trouble with the notion that Kobayashi is asking for people to give him money for a race drive without indicating what of his own money he will put forward. He's giving people the impression that he needs that money, but does he? How much has he earned since he was employed in Formula 1? How many investments does he have and what are these worth? As far as I'm concerned unless he's making himself destitute to get this drive as well then he doesn't actually need the money and is looking as much as anything to get money from people to sustain his lifestyle.

Would tend to agree, and I say that despite being a fan of the driver.

The other thing I'd like to know is, why are none of these big Japanese companies interested in sponsoring him?

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:56 am 
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He has raised 148,984,267 yen (£1,131,109) as of December 3.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:17 am 
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I am native Japanese and I feel the machine translation is causing some confusions on this thread.

The word "募金" on his website is the word normally used for collecting money for charity purpose.
I know if you look up the dictionary for this word, "fund raising" shows in English but more accurate nuance of this word is *donation* and definitely not investment.

Also, Japanese economy is suffering for very very long depression more than 20 years and Kobayashi never had any sponsor in the past and probably none in the future too.
Just go to an electronic shop and look for anything "Made in Japan" and you could find out there are almost none these days.
Even cars in UK or US are not manufactured in Japan.
There are emerging countries but Japan is definitely declining country.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:20 pm 
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Yes! yes! yes! yes! Just leave me alone, I know what I am doing! - Kamui Raikkonen


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:20 am 
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I am a bit worried about loosing Suzuka Japan F1 GP from the calender in the near future.

No Japanese sponsor, no Japanese driver, and F1 is not shown in regular TV broadcast in Japan from 2012 (only available on satellite TV now)...


Last edited by f1da on Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:28 am 
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I wonder if any teams have considered the Kamui's popularity is a good source of income in terms of merchandise sales... he's clearly very popular, and can be consistent if given the right car such as a Lotus/Force India. Perhaps this fund raising and the sheer amount people are willing to give to support him will make teams thin of his popularity as a bonus to their team.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:50 am 
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He has raised 155,748,244 yen (£1,178,750) as of December 4.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:41 pm 
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According to Twitter...

Andrew Benson ‏@andrewbensonf1 @kamui_kobayashi: もう焼き芋の季節やん!” according to Google Translate, this means "another season!" In F1?


KAMUI KOBAYASHI ‏@kamui_kobayashi もう焼き芋の季節やん!


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:42 pm 
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Go Kamui, go Kamui!

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:16 pm 
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Somebody else said his tweet meant baked sweet potato season, nothing F1 related lol. Anyone on the board read japanese?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:17 pm 
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The literal translation is, "It's already time for baked sweet potatoes".

Yakiimo is a seasonal treat, traditionally sold from carts being pulled by street vendors.

http://justhungry.com/sweet-potatoes-sa ... lus-update

Brought to you by your local Japan-born F1 fan.

Who knows if there's a hidden meaning. As often is the case, probably not.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:39 am 
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What is the daily total?

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:13 am 
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nearly 2 Million USD :smug:


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 11:16 am 
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He has raised 164,710,954 yen (£1,240,573) as of December 6.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:56 pm 
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Still not enough. He needs about 4x that.

If he doesnt do it within a week or two I dont see it happening. If a team has two options on the table, Driver 'X' with £4m sponsorship NOW, or KOB with what is effectively a crowdfunded attempt, with less money, they will go for Driver 'X'.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:28 pm 
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RickM wrote:
Still not enough. He needs about 4x that.

If he doesnt do it within a week or two I dont see it happening. If a team has two options on the table, Driver 'X' with £4m sponsorship NOW, or KOB with what is effectively a crowdfunded attempt, with less money, they will go for Driver 'X'.


Did you not see how late Petrov got a seat this season? Stranger things have happened. It could also get him a nice seat at Lotus and he could use the money he's raised to live off, therefore not having to be paid. Lotus get more points than last by not having Grosjean and gain an extra few million by not having to pay Kamui. Win/win.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:32 pm 
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Volantary wrote:
RickM wrote:
Still not enough. He needs about 4x that.

If he doesnt do it within a week or two I dont see it happening. If a team has two options on the table, Driver 'X' with £4m sponsorship NOW, or KOB with what is effectively a crowdfunded attempt, with less money, they will go for Driver 'X'.


Did you not see how late Petrov got a seat this season? Stranger things have happened. It could also get him a nice seat at Lotus and he could use the money he's raised to live off, therefore not having to be paid. Lotus get more points than last by not having Grosjean and gain an extra few million by not having to pay Kamui. Win/win.

except lotus are owned by an investment group and will not have two paid drivers. Sorry but unless he comes with a sponsorship package it wont be enough.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:34 pm 
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potter84 wrote:
Volantary wrote:
RickM wrote:
Still not enough. He needs about 4x that.

If he doesnt do it within a week or two I dont see it happening. If a team has two options on the table, Driver 'X' with £4m sponsorship NOW, or KOB with what is effectively a crowdfunded attempt, with less money, they will go for Driver 'X'.


Did you not see how late Petrov got a seat this season? Stranger things have happened. It could also get him a nice seat at Lotus and he could use the money he's raised to live off, therefore not having to be paid. Lotus get more points than last by not having Grosjean and gain an extra few million by not having to pay Kamui. Win/win.

except lotus are owned by an investment group and will not have two paid drivers. Sorry but unless he comes with a sponsorship package it wont be enough.


Pretty sure Kimi and Grosjean were paid this year.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:35 pm 
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Grojean brought a hell of a lot of total sponsorship with him.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:36 pm 
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Not to mention Renault favouring a French driver


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:59 pm 
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RickM wrote:
Still not enough. He needs about 4x that.

If he doesnt do it within a week or two I dont see it happening. If a team has two options on the table, Driver 'X' with £4m sponsorship NOW, or KOB with what is effectively a crowdfunded attempt, with less money, they will go for Driver 'X'.

Of course it is not all his money.

Kamui has been seeking for getting sponsorship from some Japanese companies.

But the details are still unknown.

He told in his today's twitter, he still works hard.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:17 pm 
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This was my idea

Andrew Wakefield‏@kimandsally

@kamui_kobayashi Kamui for sponsors try making a club where fans can send you money I think we can save you.



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Here's my tweet to Kamui on the 25th October.
Shame though he never even replied to me.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:27 am 
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:42 am 
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He needs to fire his management in reality, if he does keep his drive the will take a % from doing next to sweet fa.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 3:52 pm 
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> KAMUI KOBAYASHI ‏@kamui_kobayashi もう焼き芋の季節やん!

It means "It is already a season for baked sweet potato" but "baked sweet potato" is typically sold only in the winter in Japan, so the real translation will be "It is already winter season".

So his twitter is unfortunately nothing related to F1 season for next year...


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:07 pm 
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This is pretty cool really, he is Japan's only hope for an F1 drive and the Japanese fans really get behind their own, if they want to donate to his fund, who are some of you to say they should be donating it to cancer research or something else instead? What other people spend their money on has absolutely nothing to do with anyone else.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:15 am 
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:42 am 
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He has raised 176,222,597 yen (£1,328,978) as of December 11.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:08 pm 
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Grosjean has the seat, Lopez just playing the business card to get more money from TOTAL.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:06 pm 
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So he's averaging £7200 per day in donations.

To get to around the £4 million mark (which is the bare minimum he'll be needing without sponsorship to maybe get a Marussia/Caterham seat if he's lucky) it will take him aprox 371 days.

He's not going to do it ready for 2013 if he keeps going at this rate.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:09 pm 
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Kazuo wrote:
He has raised 176,222,597 yen (£1,328,978) as of December 11.

...and how much for today ?

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:18 pm 
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looks like no ride for him next year.... Sounds like Ro Gro about to re-ink with Lotus


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:24 pm 
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Hakkattack wrote:
looks like no ride for him next year.... Sounds like Ro Gro about to re-ink with Lotus


And neither for 2014,

Only way for him now is with genuine corporate sponsor.


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