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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:45 am 
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He could win if the McLaren was miles faster than the competition.

That's his only chance, he is just not a good enough driver to win in a level fight against Alonso or Vettel.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:58 am 
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I really doubt it. If McLaren can build a rocket ship then yes. But I don't see him being able to keep up with Vettel and Alonso in comparable equipment, like this year. I think he might even struggle to beat Kimi.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:58 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Probably not, because McLaren will allow Sergio to take points off of him.

You clearly know bugger all about the sport if that's what you think.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:29 am 
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flavio81 wrote:
Juggles wrote:
So how likely is it? I think Button's main problem, as others have said, is likely to be grid position. You need to get more than one pole a year to be world champion when you are up against the Vettel-Red Bull package.


Totally untrue. 2012 has shown that in F1 today that consistently quick race pace is far more important for a win than getting pole position or a front row start.

And on qualy days Button usually has been within 0.300s of Hamilton's time, which is fairly good.


Really? 10 out of 19 races this season have been won from pole, 15 out of 19 from the front row. Qualifying at the front is still the key to the big 25 point results and if Button is starting in 3rd, 4th or 5th against cars with comparable race pace then he'll be getting the podiums but not the wins.

Alonso has three wins this season, one in wet conditions, one taken from pole thanks to a wet Saturday and one because the race leader retired. You can't rely on those sorts of freak results to win a championship. Even with those slices of luck Alonso is likely to be pipped by Vettel, a driver whose resurgence over the last six races is derived entirely from being able to qualify on or near pole and then drive off into the distance. Hamilton, the driver with the most poles, would be leading the championship without McLaren's Operation 'Shoot ourselves in the foot.'

Alonso has driven an almost flawless season with two pole positions and a lot of things going in his favour (weather, a subservient teammate and, most importantly, blunders by the teams of his main rivals), yet it still doesn't look like being enough. And frankly, Button is no Alonso. So yes, I can assure you my original statement: "you need to get more than one pole a year to be world champion" remains true, although perhaps I should have qualified it by saying "in this era of F1."

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:35 am 
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Every driver can win , if he has the car to do it.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:40 am 
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Johnston wrote:
Who's got the pop corn ?

Of course he won't he's a mediocre driver and McLaren will be fairy cakes without the 8 tenths Lewis brings to the team. Oh and Perez is a bad qualifier and will crash a lot.

(Thats how it goes ain't it? )



Yeah I agree McLaren will lose it and be demoted to the back end of midfield and they will never ever be able to run for championship.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 12:18 pm 
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flavio81 wrote:
Juggles wrote:
So how likely is it? I think Button's main problem, as others have said, is likely to be grid position. You need to get more than one pole a year to be world champion when you are up against the Vettel-Red Bull package.


Totally untrue. 2012 has shown that in F1 today that consistently quick race pace is far more important for a win than getting pole position or a front row start.


Rubbish. Only 4 races have been won this season by a car that didn't start on the front row, and 3 of those races were won when the race leader retired with car failures.

Starting on the front row is absolutely crucial. Not doing so often leaves you with too much to do to get the win.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 1:06 pm 
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vikke wrote:
He beat Webber and Hamilton last year so lets wait and see.


True, true and lets hope we are seeing an emerging mclaren rocketship, certainly looking promising going by the last few races, MP4 cockpit could be a special place to be in 2013 and an awful time to leave but oh well eh lol

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 1:15 pm 
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Juggles wrote:
flavio81 wrote:
Juggles wrote:
So how likely is it? I think Button's main problem, as others have said, is likely to be grid position. You need to get more than one pole a year to be world champion when you are up against the Vettel-Red Bull package.


Totally untrue. 2012 has shown that in F1 today that consistently quick race pace is far more important for a win than getting pole position or a front row start.

And on qualy days Button usually has been within 0.300s of Hamilton's time, which is fairly good.


Really? 10 out of 19 races this season have been won from pole, 15 out of 19 from the front row. Qualifying at the front is still the key to the big 25 point results and if Button is starting in 3rd, 4th or 5th against cars with comparable race pace then he'll be getting the podiums but not the wins.

Alonso has three wins this season, one in wet conditions, one taken from pole thanks to a wet Saturday and one because the race leader retired. You can't rely on those sorts of freak results to win a championship. Even with those slices of luck Alonso is likely to be pipped by Vettel, a driver whose resurgence over the last six races is derived entirely from being able to qualify on or near pole and then drive off into the distance. Hamilton, the driver with the most poles, would be leading the championship without McLaren's Operation 'Shoot ourselves in the foot.'

Alonso has driven an almost flawless season with two pole positions and a lot of things going in his favour (weather, a subservient teammate and, most importantly, blunders by the teams of his main rivals), yet it still doesn't look like being enough. And frankly, Button is no Alonso. So yes, I can assure you my original statement: "you need to get more than one pole a year to be world champion" remains true, although perhaps I should have qualified it by saying "in this era of F1."

Thing is, Jenson's not as bad a qualifier as some make out. It's just that Lewis is better than him. Without Lewis there, though, I see no reason why Jenson won't be able to do well: he's a proven race winner; he's shown he can be very good strategically on his day; he's a much better overtaker than people give him credit for; and points-wise he's done almost as well as Lewis at McLaren, despite Lewis being better than him in qualifying. McLaren have a very good car, and with next year being an evolution of this year's he stands an excellent chance of running at the front, as long as they don't fall prey to the same mishaps and reliability issues as this year


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 1:38 pm 
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on Buttons results alone the Mclaren looks no better than the Ferrari.....anyway Mclaren always end the year on a high except when they in the tittle hunt at the end ....lol


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 1:38 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Thing is, Jenson's not as bad a qualifier as some make out. It's just that Lewis is better than him. Without Lewis there, though, I see no reason why Jenson won't be able to do well: he's a proven race winner; he's shown he can be very good strategically on his day; he's a much better overtaker than people give him credit for; and points-wise he's done almost as well as Lewis at McLaren, despite Lewis being better than him in qualifying. McLaren have a very good car, and with next year being an evolution of this year's he stands an excellent chance of running at the front, as long as they don't fall prey to the same mishaps and reliability issues as this year

I was nodding my head in agreement with you till I came to the underlined part and this is where I have a beef with JB fans and in your case those who dont like Lewis. Trying to imply that qualifying results do not matter by pointing out the overall points this year is where you couldnt be more wrong. The reason they are so close together on points is down to McLaren reliability and team cock-ups. Keeping everything else the same, if JB had outqualified Lewis for good measure this year, you would actually see him outscore Lewis by a good margin.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 1:38 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Thing is, Jenson's not as bad a qualifier as some make out. It's just that Lewis is better than him.

Jenson has lost qualifying battle against Ralf Schumacher, Fisichella, Jarno Truli, Rubens Barichello and Lewis Hamilton is his career. He beat Villenueve and Takuma Sato...

Unless he has a massive car advantage like in 2009, I don't think he can win the title.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 1:40 pm 
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Sorry to all the bashers but for next year at least he has more of a chance than Lewis, Massa and probably Webber!

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 1:50 pm 
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Samaritan wrote:
Is it possible absolutely.....but after 3yrs in Mclaren theres is no evidense that he can fight consistently week in week out to sustain a tittle challenge.

Button main problem apart from being a 2nd tier driver is he lack ambition and fire in the belly,yes he will push a bit to try and beat Lewis.But thats a negative motivation fuel by more by sticking it to Lewis
Button will be happy to finish 19th if it meant Lewis is in 20th,he is the only champion that think 2nd place is a great achievement...go ask KIMI....SO THAT GIVE YOU AN IDEA OF HIS MIND SET

the main challenge for Jenson is can he maintain any kind of hunger to succed beyond beating Lewis,will he give it a go,and as soon as he dont have the best package recoil back into mediocrity ,settling for the odd podium...and proclaim again that 2014 with the changes is his real target

But most importantly you cant discount the The Lewis effect or The LEWIS LEADERSHIP,which constantly pulling Button out of his comfort zone.today was a perfect example of lewis leadership by showing Button once again that there is another second in the car.that then forces Button to levels he otherwise would not go.
iF Lewis was not in that car today ,Button would have been content in 4th place a second off the real potential of the car.

And worst of all he would have been very happy with that,just being among the top runners

Lol , you really know very little about JB

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Last edited by dave_the_fish on Sun Nov 25, 2012 2:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 1:57 pm 
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SilverstoneRegular wrote:
Sorry to all the bashers but for next year at least he has more of a chance than Lewis, Massa and probably Webber!

You are assuming there will be no changes in the grid order even after winter development and when the new cars hit the track. But yes, the usual trio of suspects should be strong, question is which of the mid field teams can make inroads towards the front and is the Merc one of them.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 2:03 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Thing is, Jenson's not as bad a qualifier as some make out. It's just that Lewis is better than him. Without Lewis there, though, I see no reason why Jenson won't be able to do well: he's a proven race winner; he's shown he can be very good strategically on his day; he's a much better overtaker than people give him credit for; and points-wise he's done almost as well as Lewis at McLaren, despite Lewis being better than him in qualifying. McLaren have a very good car, and with next year being an evolution of this year's he stands an excellent chance of running at the front, as long as they don't fall prey to the same mishaps and reliability issues as this year


I see your point and, to be fair, without Hamilton there Button would have five poles this season (assuming his alternate teammate wasn't his match in qualifying). I don't want to get into the "even on points over three years" debate, it seems to run in circles. My main thought on the matter is that the points system is the designated way of assessing who succeeds and who doesn't in F1; it doesn't mean we can't use other measures to decide where drivers are relative to each other (certainly when you consider how reliant they are on their machinery). What I miss from Button is that little spark of magic that Hamilton sometimes produces. That's what I feel is required to take the fight to Vettel in that Red Bull (at least in 2013) and possibly Alonso in the Ferrari, and ultimately why if the cars are equal between those three drivers I believe Button will come out third best.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:31 pm 
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Yeah, he could win the title next year IF the McLaren is a good evolution of this years car. I think he needs a good can under him more so than some drivers, he is more precision than seat of the pants, scruff of the neck etc. I think the experience in the Honda and with Ross Brawn has taught him alot and i think he has matured well at McLaren. I also think he hasn't got *that* long left in a top team so he will need to get good results. Perez? I think he's a year too early in a top car, to mbe honest i hope i'm wrong but what the hell were McLaren thinking? Who else is there maybe?
Yeah....If he gets a great car and If he gets the team backing him 100%.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:43 pm 
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People around here really do like to go with "Lewis is better" "when Lewis leaves no one will push him" "no desire" someone even had the balls to say Lewis Leadership!

what seems common is that most think he cannot be consistent enough, 2011 he had 8 podiums and a 4th in the last 9 races.
to play the What if game: If not for Vettel Jenson would have been champion last year and his teammate was Lewis!, don't think that is possible? then don't say Lewis would have been champion this year IF not for DNFs.

Motivation coming from Lewis? well always having a challenging teammate MAY (sometimes things end sour) push you forward, the same for every driver on the grid. but where was Lewis pushing Jenson last year? he was consistently behind. Jenson's win in Canada, Lewis was long gone and Jenson was 30 seconds behind the last car. Motivation?


Given the right machinery he can be WDC again


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:43 pm 
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chinki wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Thing is, Jenson's not as bad a qualifier as some make out. It's just that Lewis is better than him. Without Lewis there, though, I see no reason why Jenson won't be able to do well: he's a proven race winner; he's shown he can be very good strategically on his day; he's a much better overtaker than people give him credit for; and points-wise he's done almost as well as Lewis at McLaren, despite Lewis being better than him in qualifying. McLaren have a very good car, and with next year being an evolution of this year's he stands an excellent chance of running at the front, as long as they don't fall prey to the same mishaps and reliability issues as this year

I was nodding my head in agreement with you till I came to the underlined part and this is where I have a beef with JB fans and in your case those who dont like Lewis. Trying to imply that qualifying results do not matter by pointing out the overall points this year is where you couldnt be more wrong. The reason they are so close together on points is down to McLaren reliability and team cock-ups. Keeping everything else the same, if JB had outqualified Lewis for good measure this year, you would actually see him outscore Lewis by a good margin.

you misunderstand the point I was trying to make. I wasn't looking at knocking Lewis or trying to say that Jenson is better than him at all. But at the end of the day a driver tends to be remembered for how many points he got over a season and in this Jenson has not done too badly in comparison in the three years they have been together. This year Lewis has comfortably beaten him and I agree would have had a lot more points if not for team errors and issues with his car, even though I think the difference has been exaggerated to some extent by the setup issues Jenson was having. But even with that I still think Lewis has looked better this year. Last year Jenson looked the better driver. Next year who knows? I'm simply answering the OP and stating that I think Jenson has a good a chance as any and he's not as bad as some make out.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:48 pm 
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Juggles wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Thing is, Jenson's not as bad a qualifier as some make out. It's just that Lewis is better than him. Without Lewis there, though, I see no reason why Jenson won't be able to do well: he's a proven race winner; he's shown he can be very good strategically on his day; he's a much better overtaker than people give him credit for; and points-wise he's done almost as well as Lewis at McLaren, despite Lewis being better than him in qualifying. McLaren have a very good car, and with next year being an evolution of this year's he stands an excellent chance of running at the front, as long as they don't fall prey to the same mishaps and reliability issues as this year


I see your point and, to be fair, without Hamilton there Button would have five poles this season (assuming his alternate teammate wasn't his match in qualifying). I don't want to get into the "even on points over three years" debate, it seems to run in circles. My main thought on the matter is that the points system is the designated way of assessing who succeeds and who doesn't in F1; it doesn't mean we can't use other measures to decide where drivers are relative to each other (certainly when you consider how reliant they are on their machinery). What I miss from Button is that little spark of magic that Hamilton sometimes produces. That's what I feel is required to take the fight to Vettel in that Red Bull (at least in 2013) and possibly Alonso in the Ferrari, and ultimately why if the cars are equal between those three drivers I believe Button will come out third best.

I don't really disagree, other than to say that people may have had a different view if Jenson hadn't had those setup issues earlier in the season. I would say that Jenson needs the car to feel just right in order to perform, but I don't agree that he necessarily needs a better car than anyone else to do it. It's his comfort level in the car that determines his pace, not necessarily how good the car is relative to others, if that makes sense. Of course, if he's driving an HRT it wouldn't matter how comfortable he was with it, but I hope you get the point I'm trying to make.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:59 pm 
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In this race Button has qualified just 0.055s behind Lewis who did a FANTASTIC pole lap. So how can Button be that bad in qualy?

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 4:37 pm 
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Blah blah Jenson inferior blah blah... and in this race Jenson is doing clearly better than Hamilton...

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 4:42 pm 
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flavio81 wrote:
Blah blah Jenson inferior blah blah... and in this race Jenson is doing clearly better than Hamilton...


One swallow doesnt make a summer. Lewis has clearly outperormed him this year


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 5:58 pm 
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Simple one. Yes he can, but McLaren need to do EVERYTHING to make sure he can get the car working every weekend and not just half of the time. When he's on it he's as good as anyone.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 6:14 pm 
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I think he Will get the preferential treatment Hamilton should have got this season. The car will be built to suit him. its about time Mclaren drop this equal driver policy. Its not working.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 6:16 pm 
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wonder81 wrote:
I think he Will get the preferential treatment Hamilton should have got this season. The car will be built to suit him. its about time Mclaren drop this equal driver policy. Its not working.

Apparently they havent dropped this policy since the days of Senna, so why start now?


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 6:19 pm 
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chinki wrote:
Apparently they havent dropped this policy since the days of Senna, so why start now?
I guess David Coulthard didn't get that memo.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:38 am 
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K00LAid wrote:
chinki wrote:
Apparently they havent dropped this policy since the days of Senna, so why start now?
I guess David Coulthard didn't get that memo.

Spa 1999?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:49 am 
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For one, I hope Jenson does well with Checo next season. I think people really do underrate Button and I think he is one of the elite drivers in the field.

He's a fantastic racer. He races clean, avoids trouble, and is very respectable. On his day, he is easily one of the best in the field. Jenson is and was always NEVER inferior to Lewis IMO. Jenson may have had his off days and everyone does. Lewis may have this intangible raw pace and we love it, but Jenson is a special guy who can push the car and can most definitely compete everyday basis with no issue. His qualifying may leave something to be desired sometimes, but he is very consistent and will be a fantastic lead driver for Mclaren. On the downside, he can be very sensitive to changes within the car and the car has to be balanced for Jenson to push. Jenson has pushed Lewis all three years no doubt and he's proven doubters wrong on how he was supposed to be demolished by him, so yeah he is clearly one of the best in the field.

Great overtaker, intelligent, nice guy, but I hope he does not get a big head from Sergio arriving and act like Jacques did to him in 2003. We all remember what happened afterwards...

Jenson needed this opportunity with Macca and has made everything out of it. Credit to this guy.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:03 am 
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He had a difficult season and still finished just two points behind his extremely well regarded teammate. I see no reason why he couldn't win it next year.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:04 am 
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M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:
People around here really do like to go with "Lewis is better" "when Lewis leaves no one will push him" "no desire" someone even had the balls to say Lewis Leadership!

what seems common is that most think he cannot be consistent enough, 2011 he had 8 podiums and a 4th in the last 9 races.
to play the What if game: If not for Vettel Jenson would have been champion last year and his teammate was Lewis!, don't think that is possible? then don't say Lewis would have been champion this year IF not for DNFs.

Motivation coming from Lewis? well always having a challenging teammate MAY (sometimes things end sour) push you forward, the same for every driver on the grid. but where was Lewis pushing Jenson last year? he was consistently behind. Jenson's win in Canada, Lewis was long gone and Jenson was 30 seconds behind the last car. Motivation?


Given the right machinery he can be WDC again


The bolded is completely incorrect, they finished 7-7 when both finished, won 3 races each. Even in the middle on Jensons great run in the second half Lewis still soundly beat him in most of the races he avoided penalties and collisions in, namely Abu Dhabi and Korea.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:08 am 
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chinki wrote:
wonder81 wrote:
I think he Will get the preferential treatment Hamilton should have got this season. The car will be built to suit him. its about time Mclaren drop this equal driver policy. Its not working.

Apparently they havent dropped this policy since the days of Senna, so why start now?


I honestly think that with modern F1 you can't have a equal driver policy


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:14 am 
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Its amazing how fickle some F1 fans are, Hulk and Lewis don't take one another out today and JB comes home 3rd the new found optimism in here would be half as much. A win is great for his confidence but does not paper over the cracks of a bad season for Jenson, admitted by himself. No world champion could be pleased with his season especially off the back of out scoring Lewis in 2011 on merit.

My worry as a Mclaren fan is that 5 of his 8 Mclaren wins he has needed wet/dry races and some excellent gambles on tyres. It does not rain enough to make a title challenge out of that.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:19 am 
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lamo wrote:
M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:
People around here really do like to go with "Lewis is better" "when Lewis leaves no one will push him" "no desire" someone even had the balls to say Lewis Leadership!

what seems common is that most think he cannot be consistent enough, 2011 he had 8 podiums and a 4th in the last 9 races.
to play the What if game: If not for Vettel Jenson would have been champion last year and his teammate was Lewis!, don't think that is possible? then don't say Lewis would have been champion this year IF not for DNFs.

Motivation coming from Lewis? well always having a challenging teammate MAY (sometimes things end sour) push you forward, the same for every driver on the grid. but where was Lewis pushing Jenson last year? he was consistently behind. Jenson's win in Canada, Lewis was long gone and Jenson was 30 seconds behind the last car. Motivation?


Given the right machinery he can be WDC again


The bolded is completely incorrect, they finished 7-7 when both finished, won 3 races each. Even in the middle on Jensons great run in the second half Lewis still soundly beat him in most of the races he avoided penalties and collisions in, namely Abu Dhabi and Korea.


most?

in the last 9 races (the second half you mentioned) Lewis beat him in only those 2! how is that "soundly beating him in most of the races". It is not Jenson's fault Lewis had those penalties or collisions, actually Lewis only had himself to blame at the time.

now how can someone question Jenson's motivation and say he is only interested in beating Lewis. actually IIRC last year his aim was to outscore Vettel in the second half (not overall of course), Hamilton was having a bad year and Jenson for those last 9 races was only outscored by Vettel


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:23 am 
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M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:
lamo wrote:
M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:
People around here really do like to go with "Lewis is better" "when Lewis leaves no one will push him" "no desire" someone even had the balls to say Lewis Leadership!

what seems common is that most think he cannot be consistent enough, 2011 he had 8 podiums and a 4th in the last 9 races.
to play the What if game: If not for Vettel Jenson would have been champion last year and his teammate was Lewis!, don't think that is possible? then don't say Lewis would have been champion this year IF not for DNFs.

Motivation coming from Lewis? well always having a challenging teammate MAY (sometimes things end sour) push you forward, the same for every driver on the grid. but where was Lewis pushing Jenson last year? he was consistently behind. Jenson's win in Canada, Lewis was long gone and Jenson was 30 seconds behind the last car. Motivation?


Given the right machinery he can be WDC again


The bolded is completely incorrect, they finished 7-7 when both finished, won 3 races each. Even in the middle on Jensons great run in the second half Lewis still soundly beat him in most of the races he avoided penalties and collisions in, namely Abu Dhabi and Korea.


most?

in the last 9 races (the second half you mentioned) Lewis beat him in only those 2! how is that "soundly beating him in most of the races". It is not Jenson's fault Lewis had those penalties or collisions, actually Lewis only had himself to blame at the time.

now how can someone question Jenson's motivation and say he is only interested in beating Lewis. actually IIRC last year his aim was to outscore Vettel in the second half (not overall of course), Hamilton was having a bad year and Jenson for those last 9 races was only outscored by Vettel


You are right its not Jenson fault he had those penalties, he took full advantage. But what happens when Lewis stops getting those penalties? 2012. He completely out performed him.

The motivation stuff is a load of tripe, both drivers race to finish as high as possible all the time.

And yes my statement holds. He finished ahead twice. Spa he retired way ahead of JB, Monza Schumacher ran Lewis off track allowing JB passed subsequently getting Lewis stuck behind MS again as he pitted as soon as Lewis passed him.

Singapore, Japan and Brazil 2011 JB was simply the better driver in that 9 race block.

India Lewis looked a lot quicker but the grid penalty and subsequent Massa incident ruined his race.

I only raised this in relation to you saying Jenson was consistently ahead of Lewis, which is nonsense.

The first half of 2011 Lewis was a long way ahead of Jenson and theres not "ifs", he was simply quicker just like Jenson was in that block of 3 races mentioned above.

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Last edited by lamo on Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:29 am, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:23 am 
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There is not much difference between this year and next with the car . The only reason we are really saying the Mclaren is good or some say the fastest is because of what Lewis did with it .

Jenson will do as well as he always does (although he won't have Lewis's set up to follow) which i suspect could be a big problem again for him next year .

But win the WDC is stretching it a bit too far .Jenson goes missing in action every year and Alonso has shown us you can't afford to do that with the Red Bulls around but even if he did manage to up his game in his weak areas.
Mclaren, who seem to suffer from friendly fire will somehow manage to take him out of contention .


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:28 am 
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lamo wrote:
Its amazing how fickle some F1 fans are, Hulk and Lewis don't take one another out today and JB comes home 3rd the new found optimism in here would be half as much. A win is great for his confidence but does not paper over the cracks of a bad season for Jenson, admitted by himself. No world champion could be pleased with his season especially off the back of out scoring Lewis in 2011 on merit.

My worry as a Mclaren fan is that 5 of his 8 Mclaren wins he has needed wet/dry races and some excellent gambles on tyres. It does not rain enough to make a title challenge out of that.


Yes fickle.

another what if, with no safety car out Jenson and Hulkenberg would have probably lapped Lewis. no point discussing either case as we don't know what could have happened in any situation.

he has had 5 wins in changeable conditions which is one of his strength i admit. but the other 3 wins were very dominant dry wins, and last year as you know he was very good in the dry in the second half, beating the highly regarded Lewis so it certainly not that dry running is his weakness but more that changeable conditions is a strength.

He also admitted this year was not the best for him, he had 3 excellent wins but lacked consistency and given how he is known as "Mr. consistent" then this season may just be a fluke in that. + a bad season with 3 wins is not so bad.

I am also not trying to spark the Jenson vs Lewis debate by saying the following, you say that it doesn't rain enough in a season to mount a tittle challenge, so if Jenson was a bad dry weather driver the surely over 3 years he would not be even close to scoring the same as Lewis as "It does not rain enough to make a title challenge out of that". but that is not the case.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:34 am 
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M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:
lamo wrote:
Its amazing how fickle some F1 fans are, Hulk and Lewis don't take one another out today and JB comes home 3rd the new found optimism in here would be half as much. A win is great for his confidence but does not paper over the cracks of a bad season for Jenson, admitted by himself. No world champion could be pleased with his season especially off the back of out scoring Lewis in 2011 on merit.

My worry as a Mclaren fan is that 5 of his 8 Mclaren wins he has needed wet/dry races and some excellent gambles on tyres. It does not rain enough to make a title challenge out of that.


Yes fickle.

another what if, with no safety car out Jenson and Hulkenberg would have probably lapped Lewis. no point discussing either case as we don't know what could have happened in any situation.

he has had 5 wins in changeable conditions which is one of his strength i admit. but the other 3 wins were very dominant dry wins, and last year as you know he was very good in the dry in the second half, beating the highly regarded Lewis so it certainly not that dry running is his weakness but more that changeable conditions is a strength.

He also admitted this year was not the best for him, he had 3 excellent wins but lacked consistency and given how he is known as "Mr. consistent" then this season may just be a fluke in that. + a bad season with 3 wins is not so bad.

I am also not trying to spark the Jenson vs Lewis debate by saying the following, you say that it doesn't rain enough in a season to mount a tittle challenge, so if Jenson was a bad dry weather driver the surely over 3 years he would not be even close to scoring the same as Lewis as "It does not rain enough to make a title challenge out of that". but that is not the case.


Example used to show how fickle the casual fan can be. 3 wins in 3 (normal dry conditions) years does not yield titles. 88% of races have been dry since the start of 2010.

JB said last week that the same happened to him in 2009 as it did in 2012, so its not a one off. Thats why I am not too happy he is Mclarens lead driver.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:36 am 
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Museli wrote:
The mere fact that this question is even being speaks volumes.


haha!


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:36 am 
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lamo wrote:
M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:
lamo wrote:
M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:
People around here really do like to go with "Lewis is better" "when Lewis leaves no one will push him" "no desire" someone even had the balls to say Lewis Leadership!

what seems common is that most think he cannot be consistent enough, 2011 he had 8 podiums and a 4th in the last 9 races.
to play the What if game: If not for Vettel Jenson would have been champion last year and his teammate was Lewis!, don't think that is possible? then don't say Lewis would have been champion this year IF not for DNFs.

Motivation coming from Lewis? well always having a challenging teammate MAY (sometimes things end sour) push you forward, the same for every driver on the grid. but where was Lewis pushing Jenson last year? he was consistently behind. Jenson's win in Canada, Lewis was long gone and Jenson was 30 seconds behind the last car. Motivation?


Given the right machinery he can be WDC again


The bolded is completely incorrect, they finished 7-7 when both finished, won 3 races each. Even in the middle on Jensons great run in the second half Lewis still soundly beat him in most of the races he avoided penalties and collisions in, namely Abu Dhabi and Korea.


most?

in the last 9 races (the second half you mentioned) Lewis beat him in only those 2! how is that "soundly beating him in most of the races". It is not Jenson's fault Lewis had those penalties or collisions, actually Lewis only had himself to blame at the time.

now how can someone question Jenson's motivation and say he is only interested in beating Lewis. actually IIRC last year his aim was to outscore Vettel in the second half (not overall of course), Hamilton was having a bad year and Jenson for those last 9 races was only outscored by Vettel


You are right its not Jenson fault he had those penalties, he took full advantage. But what happens when Lewis stops getting those penalties? 2012. He completely out performed him.

The motivation stuff is a load of tripe, both drivers race to finish as high as possible all the time.

And yes my statement holds. He finished ahead twice. Spa he retired way ahead of JB, Monza Schumacher ran Lewis off track allowing JB passed subsequently getting Lewis stuck behind MS again as he pitted as soon as Lewis passed him.

Singapore, Japan and Brazil 2011 JB was simply the better driver in that 9 race block.

India Lewis looked a lot quicker but the grid penalty and subsequent Massa incident ruined his race.

I only raised this in relation to you saying Jenson was consistently ahead of Lewis, which is nonsense.

The first half of 2011 Lewis was a long way ahead of Jenson and theres not "ifs", he was simply quicker just like Jenson was in that block of 3 races mentioned above.


Actually from what you say, that is SPA, Abudhabi and Korea.
India is speculation as the start would have been very different. and Monza Jenson was right behind Lewis, Lewis couldn't get past MSC but Jenson did, if anything it shows better Judgement and racecraft you can't say Lewis was better than Jenson that day!

still Lewis only was ahead 3 times? that means Jenson was consistently ahead. and if we were going to add SPA to the equation then we might as well add Brazil were Jenson was ahead till Lewis' gearbox decided not to work.

Jenson was consistently ahead during the last 9 races of 2011, i don't see how you can spin that. Lewis's own errors where his undoing last year. he was a lot better this year though!


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