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Lewis drove brilliantly at Abu Dhabi and Korea but in the second half of the season he was beaten by Jenson at: (when both finished)

Hungary (Lewis' mistake spinning, subsequent drive through penalty for forcing Di Resta off the track when he rejoined the circuit and choosing to pit for Inters)

Monza

Singapore (Lewis recieved a drive through penalty for contact with Massa around lap 12 but he was running down in P7 after the first lap whereas Jenson was up in P2)

Japan

India (Lewis had a 3 place grid-penalty and started just behind Jenson on the grid, Lewis also had to pit later on in the GP after contact with Massa but after the first lap Jenson was up in to P2 whereas Lewis fell back to P6.

No offense, but I don't see how you can claim Lewis soundly beat Jenson in the second half of the 2011 season? Even in the races Lewis had a collision or a penalty, Jenson was ahead of him.

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"I don't make mistakes, I make prophecies that immediately turn out to be wrong."

Your statement was for the entire season, no? Why are you only mentioning the last 9 races? Oh wait those were the ones Jenson did better in.

"but where was Lewis pushing Jenson last year? he was consistently behind."

Because there were four other people in front of him even if you remove Lewis that leaves Alonso Vettel
Kimi add to that list a new and improved Massa and Webber .

You then have young Perez who they will have to focus on so Jenson will have less attention not more as some of you think . Mclaren need the WCC .

Perez who's qualifying skills are similar to Jenson's will probably be near him on the grid Perez will want to prove himself so I fear Jenson may get a taste of his own medicine in having to fend off Perez at the start which then allows the Red Bulls to escape and the wily Alonso to slip past .

I did say when he avoided penalties and collisions.

Because you said
?

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"I don't make mistakes, I make prophecies that immediately turn out to be wrong."

Obviously you believe Lewis is a better lead driver. but since you say 88% of the races are dry and the fact that over 3 years both drivers amassed nearly the same number of points, then a natural conclusion would be that Jenson is not bad in dry weather, far from it! if he was Lewis would have destroyed him in those races, noway to cover a deficit like that in 12% of the races!

Points are what wins championships, and in that regard Jenson and Lewis are equals and if so then both are good enough to lead a team or neither of them is.

and for the record 2009 and 2012 are not in anyway similar. actually 2009 second half he was more often than not ahead of RB. 2012 was very troubling, but nothing like it happened before IMO ( 2003,2004, 2010 or 2011 as examples)

P.S Alonso this year benefited greatly from his wet weather skills in Malasya, Britian, Germany and Brazil, so why is this attack on JB and not Alonso?

I know, but I simply provided evidence that shows Lewis' penalties and collisions happened when Jenson was usually a fair few posistions up the field. If the incidents in Singapore and India hadn't occoured he still would of finished behind Jenson. (Even at Hungary he only had himself to blame for spinning and choosing to pit for Inters.)

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"I don't make mistakes, I make prophecies that immediately turn out to be wrong."

I was talking about the second half, were Lewis was constantly behind and trying to prove motivation is not a problem to another poster. and then you stepped in and said Lewis actually beat him "soundly" in the second half. which nearly threw me off my chair!

Which is true.

Germany,win
Hungary, loses win by getting penalty (ahead of Jenson when takes penalty)
Belgian, collision when ahead of Jenson
Italy, ahead of Jenson when run off road by Schumacher. Terrible sequence of events mean he overtake schumacher the lap after Jenson did, but MS undercuts him by pitting and ruinning his next stint.
Singapore - Jensons race
Japan - Jensons race
Korea - wins team mate battle
India - massively quicker than Jenson in qualifying but grid penalty and poor start ruins weekend
Abu - wins
Brazil - retired when behind Jenson

Please quote my correctly. Soundly beat "most" of the time I said and the key part was if you missed it first time around was when he was not having collisions or penalties.

If you were talking about the second half it would have been a lot clearer if you had said the second half.

Germany, Spa, Korea and Abudhabi. 6-4. Jenson still ahead!

Might want to check who was leading in Hungary when Lewis recieved his penalty pal...

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"I don't make mistakes, I make prophecies that immediately turn out to be wrong."

What about Monza 2010 when he led the whole way but the team gave him a pit stop nearly a second slower than Alonso? Jenson was side by side with Alonso as Alonso exited the pits.
What about Monaco 2011 when Jenson was leading but McLaren gave him three stints on soft tyres? Everyone knows you do not surrender track position at Monaco but clearly McLaren forgot that on that day, or maybe they had a bunch of monkeys on the pitwall that day.

Jenson is just fine in the dry. He made a title challenge out of it in 2009 despite his car arguably not being the best throughout the whole season - Certainly the Red Bull was the most consistent car.

You are absolutely right though that this win does not paper over the cracks. He has had a very poor season, no doubt about it. However, the confidence comes from the fact that Jenson has succeeded more often than not when he's had strong equipment. You only have to look at 2004, or when he outscored everyone in the last few races of 2006, or 2009-2011. This year the first time he's failed, and one bad year does not make a bad driver.

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I don't follow F1 so I don't know what I'm talking about

Firstly because I am a Mclaren fan and being objective, not 50% of Alonsos career race wins have been in the wet.

Points are not everything, and not always a good reflection. Jenson had 1% less points than Lewis this year. If you were at team boss and had to hire one of the pair, based ENTIRELY on their performance in the car during the 2012 season. Who would you hire?

My mistake for not pointing that out, thought it was understood from the context.

"when he was not having collisions or penalties" not a good or viable excuse, If Grosjean didn't crash a lot he would have been WDC.

A weakness he needs to fix, and he did this year.

You are right, he could have had a couple more. But even with those it would still be 50% race wins in wet/dry races.

I think Jenson is a good driver, probably the 4th best on the grid. So read in to that what you will. The problem is, if the Mclaren is equal to the Red Bull and Ferrari I could not see him being able to handle Vettel and/or Alonso.

If Jenson was having collisions and penalties it would be used against him, not as an excuse for poor driving...

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"I don't make mistakes, I make prophecies that immediately turn out to be wrong."

He is saying most of those penalties and collisions happened when Lewis was behind Jenson. Which I agree last year Lewis on Massa territory (5-8th place) way too many times....

Button beat Lewis fair and square last year...

Sometimes I am very critical of Button but he drove very well today. He was better than Lewis and both he and Hulk managed to continue on slicks when everybody else switched to interns.... They were 40+ seconds in front of everybody else and if it weren't for safety car, they will have finished miles in front....

You cant even argue that Hamilton was nearly as good as Button in 2011, because Button was on top of his game and Hamilton was frankly, rubbish in every department.

Lewis, but i wouldn't be a team boss if i made my decisions that ill informed.

Points usually are everything, it is what wins championships. Just ask Kimi, or even Maldonado, or Hamilton and Button this year!

Once again i really want to make myself clear that i am not dissing Lewis in any way, he is a great driver. I am just hopelessly trying to prove to you that so is Jenson.

I believe leading a team is about Personalty and bagging the points, Jenson does both. Lewis has no upper hand on him in either.

If Jenson was having collisions and penalties it would be used against him, not as an excuse for poor driving...[/quote]
Rightly so, the same for Lewis. He was terrible in that half of the season.

Except for Australia, China, Turkey, Spain, Europe, Germany, Korea and Abu Dhabi were Lewis out qualified and finished on average 2-3 places ahead of Jenson. Although Jenson did not finish in Germany but retired from P5 whilst Lewis was leading.

But you said Lewis would of beaten Jenson in those races if it had not been for penalties or collisions, that to me is an excuse.

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"I don't make mistakes, I make prophecies that immediately turn out to be wrong."

Hungary - Lewis re-overtook Jenson after the spin

Monza - I am not suggesting Lewis was better, just giving the facts. Jenson caught the pair just as MS tyres hit the cliff and MS put Lewis on the grass allowing Jenson to pass Lewis. He then Dispatched MS immediately, Lewis then passed the very next lap but MS pitted for fresh rubber and once Lewis pitted was back behind MS (now on fresh rubber) and with 15 kmph straight line advantage and impossible to pass. That sequence of events worked perfectly to completely screw Lewis.

India - if you look at the race where Jenson outperformed Lewis he was always very very close in qualifying. Singapore, Japan and Brazil. When Jenson is around 0.5 down in qualifying he is always slower in the race. 0.1-0.2 between the pair in qualifying and its a close race. We will never know how that one goes without Lewis losing 3 grid places.

At Hungary they traded places a few times before Lewis choose to pit for Inters whereas Jenson stayed out on dry tyres (much like Brazil yesterday) then Lewis was given the drive through penalty 2 laps later.

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"I don't make mistakes, I make prophecies that immediately turn out to be wrong."

Not making excuses, analysing the results. To me I like to know how Jenson Button can beat Lewis Hamilton. He hands down did it in three races - Brazil, Singapore and Japan. This year Australia, Spa and today he even overtook Lewis in a straight fight although Lewis returned the favour and then built a 5 second gap.
2010, he never really did it without tyre gambles or running complete different setup (Monza).

arguments aside, by you evaluation criteria how many times has Lewis beat Jenson in a straight fight? no tyre gambles or different setups?

I am genuinely interested to know, not a trick question.

I wasn't discussing their entire 3 seasons together, you brought up the second half of 2011 and made excuses that Lewis didn't beat him in more races because he had a collision or a penalty.

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"I don't make mistakes, I make prophecies that immediately turn out to be wrong."

It seems that Lewis and 2011 is the benchmark for Jensons 12 year career and that can't be right because 2011 was a dreadful year for everyone except Sebastian Vettel

Red bull made mincemeat of everyone so to use that year as an example of how Jenson could become WDC doesn't make sense .the way it's portrayed you would imagine a nail biting finale such as this year whereas Vettel had the championship pretty sealed up half way through the year , which incidentally was when Hamilton went ballistic .
He can't take his 2011 points into next year so he'll have to do much better than that to win a WDC again

I do not know but from memory this season...

Tempted to say Austin but Buttons qualifying woe adds ambiguity to it so I won't.

Abu Dhabi for sure.
India.
Singapore (although JB was on good form I have to say)
Italy
Hungary
Canada (although JB did not get much Friday running to be fair)
Monaco
Spain

A few others but cases can be made that it was not a straight fight. Like Korea where Lewis was 7 places ahead when JB was taken out.

You'll note some of those races Lewis did not even finish, but for me showed why I rate him that little bit higher than JB. A prime example being Abu Dhabi.

Looking at it from the other side.

JB beating Lewis...
Australia - hands down and a bitter weekend for Lewis and his fans
Malaysia - Race 2 and Jenson still looking strong compared to Lewis but collided with a back marker. I must admit I was worried that Jenson was equal for speed and more consistent than Lewis. However he crashed and fell away from this point onwards.
China - Lewis comes alive, Jenson finishes ahead but 5 place grid penalty hurts Lewis massively.

Jenson hits the setup wall.

Spa - hands down beat Lewis again. But with no Friday running car setup is tricky for all teams and Lewis ends up with a vastly inferior car which he is of course partly to blame for.

Germany - Button has an impressive run to 2nd, I was in the stands cheering for him , but lap 1 puncture for Lewis means we will never know.

Japan - Jenson quicker but later disclosed Lewis had a damper failure for qualifying and race.

Brazil - I would put as a draw, they both impressed me. Jenson for overtaking Lewis and edging away in stint one and Lewis for doing the same in stint two. Again Jenson has uncanny skill of predicting the weather just like his two wins in early 2010.

What does leading a team mean , I've seen Jenson use this term lately and it's often mentioned on this forum in reference to Jenson but I don't hear other teams speak of this role ,I'm puzzled by the term and feel its an illusion or just in his mind , not really a real position with a title like , number 1 driver or Team Principle .

Don't see why not. He will have a great car next year, RB will have some catch up work to do to maintain the same performance, Ferrari can be counted on to screw up somehow. If McLaren have an "off" year and don't screw up in turn as much as they normally do, he could be the dark horse! And he has won before, so why not again?

As a Jenson fan I agree, although I'd actually rank Kimi slightly higher. Thing is, Jenson doesn't necessarily need a car advantage, he just needs a car that he can get to work consistently, like he did towards the end of 2011. Obviously that isn't the best example since the Red Bull was a little faster at most races, but I thought I'd just throw that out there.

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I don't follow F1 so I don't know what I'm talking about