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Should Lotus retain Grosjean?
Yes 47%  47%  [ 86 ]
No 53%  53%  [ 96 ]
Total votes : 182
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:29 am 
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Another mistake today and difficult to see how Lotus could justify keeping him if the delay in announcing him was really about evaluating him to see if he has outgrown his problems. Was interesting to hear Eddie Jordan desperately trying to defend him by ridiculously suggesting that PDLR was not on the racing line, it seems Grosjean has a lot of support from various quarters.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:52 am 
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At the end of the day its points that matter. He is very fast yes but also has way to many crashes which result in no points and massive repair bills for the team. A slightly slower but more consistant driver would have done a much better job with way more points.
And at the end of the day thats what matters. So many better options. Ricciardo , Vergne , Kobayashi , Senna , Kovalainon , Bottas etc would have brought home more points than Grosjean has.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 4:27 am 
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this is his 2nd chance in F1 after blowing it the first time with Renault.

why should he have a 3rd chance now?


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 4:28 am 
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Personally, while I freely admit he's had too many incidents, the same can be said of many drivers who've gone on to be some of the best on the grid, everyone's long since forgotten that Massa use to crash all the time, I feel his general performance has been good enough, and I think they should keep him.

In many ways he's been under more pressure than any other driver in the field at times this year, as such it's not surprising he's ballsed it up more than a few times, lets face it, even the best make mistakes under pressure, at other times, he's been an innocent bystander but been judged perhaps a bit harshly due to his reputation. The Entsone team isn't renowned for being a secure nurturing environment for maximising the development of young drivers, perhaps he'd have done better if they treated drivers a bit better? I don't know.

What I do know though is that the "points are all that counts" argument can be spun to support either viewpoint. For the "no" campaign we have the simple fact of him being so far behind Kimi. For the "yes" campaign we have the fact that he is 8th in the title hunt, and it's not likely that Nico will push him down to 9th tomorrow.

8th, think about it. Would anyone really have expected him to be any higher? After all, you'd expect both Red Bulls, both Ferraris, both McLarens and Kimi to be ahead of him. And lo and behold, they are, but no one else is.

And if you then come back with the argument that if Kimi can be 3rd, most likely 4th after tomorrow, he should be up there too, then by the same merit if Vettel's 1st, Webber should be higher than 5th, if Fernando's 2nd, Massa should be higher than 7th, and if Hamilton's 4th, likely 3rd, Button should be higher than 6th. At the end of the day it is likely that of the 4 best teams their effective #1 drivers will all be ahead of the all of the #2s, and it's likely that Kimi will be 4th of the #1s, and Romain 4th of the #2s. Doesn't sound too shabby to me, especially when you consider that the other defacto #2s are nearing the end of their respective careers and he's only at the start of his, he's got far more potential to progress further from where they are than the others do.

Oh, and everyone's saying Maldonado deserves his place over and above Senna, even though Senna has usually raced better than Maldonado this year, hence far more points finishes, because he got that win. Everyone's forgotten that it isn't only the Red Bulls that have had alternator woes. After Vettel's first issue, Romain was then in the lead, judging by his pace, probably on for rather a comfortable maiden victory, until his alternator packed in too, so he also would have have that win. Also, with the confidence that that would have given him, maybe other mistakes wouldn't have happened.

Anyway, it ain't up to me, so who cares what I think.

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Last edited by toilet on Sun Nov 25, 2012 4:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 4:28 am 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDnnfizWCm4

I think this short video explains it all and I agree 100% on what they're saying. It's what Grosjean is lacking.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 4:39 am 
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toilet wrote:
The Entsone team isn't renowned for being a secure nurturing environment for maximising the development of young drivers, perhaps he'd have done better if they treated drivers a bit better? I don't know.


I think that was a fair comment in the Briatore/Alonso days. Pretty hard for a rookie to succeed in those days obviously. But I don't think it has applied this season. The team has been +very+ supportive of Grosjean right from the start, if anything more supportive of him than of Kimi.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 5:20 am 
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I voted no, but Romain is everything but confirmed

We will see him in black overalls next year. What a waste of a good car, if it was another consistent driver we could've seen Lotus climb to 3rd ot even 2nd place in the WCC


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 5:40 am 
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He is a fast driver, but in the end of the day he has lost a lot of points this season.

Question about does he deserve another chance. Hard to say really. Lewis did a lot of stupid mistakes early his career, but has matured up as a driver. I think Gros does have quite a bit of a mental lock going on and missing confidence, that's when the mistakes come for you.
I would still say Lotus might be better off with some other young driver like Bottas for example.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 6:38 am 
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How many crashes has grosjean had all up this year? Maybe somebody can do a compilation and upload them to youtube.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:38 am 
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toilet wrote:
Personally, while I freely admit he's had too many incidents, the same can be said of many drivers who've gone on to be some of the best on the grid, everyone's long since forgotten that Massa use to crash all the time, I feel his general performance has been good enough, and I think they should keep him.

In many ways he's been under more pressure than any other driver in the field at times this year, as such it's not surprising he's ballsed it up more than a few times, lets face it, even the best make mistakes under pressure, at other times, he's been an innocent bystander but been judged perhaps a bit harshly due to his reputation. The Entsone team isn't renowned for being a secure nurturing environment for maximising the development of young drivers, perhaps he'd have done better if they treated drivers a bit better? I don't know.

What I do know though is that the "points are all that counts" argument can be spun to support either viewpoint. For the "no" campaign we have the simple fact of him being so far behind Kimi. For the "yes" campaign we have the fact that he is 8th in the title hunt, and it's not likely that Nico will push him down to 9th tomorrow.

8th, think about it. Would anyone really have expected him to be any higher? After all, you'd expect both Red Bulls, both Ferraris, both McLarens and Kimi to be ahead of him. And lo and behold, they are, but no one else is.

And if you then come back with the argument that if Kimi can be 3rd, most likely 4th after tomorrow, he should be up there too, then by the same merit if Vettel's 1st, Webber should be higher than 5th, if Fernando's 2nd, Massa should be higher than 7th, and if Hamilton's 4th, likely 3rd, Button should be higher than 6th. At the end of the day it is likely that of the 4 best teams their effective #1 drivers will all be ahead of the all of the #2s, and it's likely that Kimi will be 4th of the #1s, and Romain 4th of the #2s. Doesn't sound too shabby to me, especially when you consider that the other defacto #2s are nearing the end of their respective careers and he's only at the start of his, he's got far more potential to progress further from where they are than the others do.

Oh, and everyone's saying Maldonado deserves his place over and above Senna, even though Senna has usually raced better than Maldonado this year, hence far more points finishes, because he got that win. Everyone's forgotten that it isn't only the Red Bulls that have had alternator woes. After Vettel's first issue, Romain was then in the lead, judging by his pace, probably on for rather a comfortable maiden victory, until his alternator packed in too, so he also would have have that win. Also, with the confidence that that would have given him, maybe other mistakes wouldn't have happened.

Anyway, it ain't up to me, so who cares what I think.


Fantastic post - said everything I wanted to say and more.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:46 am 
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I wasn't a huge fan of RoGro before this season, I didn't think he deserved a second chance. But this season he's won me over, I think he deserves a seat next year.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 8:08 am 
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He has to much raw speed to give up on after just 1 year.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 8:29 am 
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I also hope that he gets another shot. Yes he made quiet some mistakes and in the second half of the season he scored considerable less points than in the first half. However the speed and the potential is there. I mean if guys like Petrov and Piquet jr. who were far less impressive got another shot than I think Grosjean should get one too. I don't really count the half season he had with Renault in 2009 with Alonso as teammate as a real chance.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 8:30 am 
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toilet wrote:
Personally, while I freely admit he's had too many incidents, the same can be said of many drivers who've gone on to be some of the best on the grid, everyone's long since forgotten that Massa use to crash all the time, I feel his general performance has been good enough, and I think they should keep him.

In many ways he's been under more pressure than any other driver in the field at times this year, as such it's not surprising he's ballsed it up more than a few times, lets face it, even the best make mistakes under pressure, at other times, he's been an innocent bystander but been judged perhaps a bit harshly due to his reputation. The Entsone team isn't renowned for being a secure nurturing environment for maximising the development of young drivers, perhaps he'd have done better if they treated drivers a bit better? I don't know.

What I do know though is that the "points are all that counts" argument can be spun to support either viewpoint. For the "no" campaign we have the simple fact of him being so far behind Kimi. For the "yes" campaign we have the fact that he is 8th in the title hunt, and it's not likely that Nico will push him down to 9th tomorrow.

8th, think about it. Would anyone really have expected him to be any higher? After all, you'd expect both Red Bulls, both Ferraris, both McLarens and Kimi to be ahead of him. And lo and behold, they are, but no one else is.

And if you then come back with the argument that if Kimi can be 3rd, most likely 4th after tomorrow, he should be up there too, then by the same merit if Vettel's 1st, Webber should be higher than 5th, if Fernando's 2nd, Massa should be higher than 7th, and if Hamilton's 4th, likely 3rd, Button should be higher than 6th. At the end of the day it is likely that of the 4 best teams their effective #1 drivers will all be ahead of the all of the #2s, and it's likely that Kimi will be 4th of the #1s, and Romain 4th of the #2s. Doesn't sound too shabby to me, especially when you consider that the other defacto #2s are nearing the end of their respective careers and he's only at the start of his, he's got far more potential to progress further from where they are than the others do.

Oh, and everyone's saying Maldonado deserves his place over and above Senna, even though Senna has usually raced better than Maldonado this year, hence far more points finishes, because he got that win. Everyone's forgotten that it isn't only the Red Bulls that have had alternator woes. After Vettel's first issue, Romain was then in the lead, judging by his pace, probably on for rather a comfortable maiden victory, until his alternator packed in too, so he also would have have that win. Also, with the confidence that that would have given him, maybe other mistakes wouldn't have happened.

Anyway, it ain't up to me, so who cares what I think.


Congrats on this post I could not have said it better :thumbup:

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 8:31 am 
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I say no but since he's confirmed more or less, 1 extra year to prove he can learn from his errors.

It says a lot when his teammate has finished every lap this year to his finished probably less than 70% (I'm not figuring it out just now). & it shows in the WDC - RAI 206 against GRO 96 & if he fails to make turn 1 it'll be less than half his teammates points. Only 2 other drivers don't have half their teammates points - Massa & Schumi though Schumi is there through mechanical failure not driver error

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 9:15 am 
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Poll pretty much says it. Think if I were boss I'd feel like just flipping a coin, could be right or wrong either way.

But since it's someone's life not just a corporate interest, I'd say keep him conditionally -- have the contract say that if he has 3 crashes in the 1st half of the season, he's gone for the 2nd half.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 9:31 am 
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toilet wrote:
Personally, while I freely admit he's had too many incidents, the same can be said of many drivers who've gone on to be some of the best on the grid, everyone's long since forgotten that Massa use to crash all the time, I feel his general performance has been good enough, and I think they should keep him.

In many ways he's been under more pressure than any other driver in the field at times this year, as such it's not surprising he's ballsed it up more than a few times, lets face it, even the best make mistakes under pressure, at other times, he's been an innocent bystander but been judged perhaps a bit harshly due to his reputation. The Entsone team isn't renowned for being a secure nurturing environment for maximising the development of young drivers, perhaps he'd have done better if they treated drivers a bit better? I don't know.

What I do know though is that the "points are all that counts" argument can be spun to support either viewpoint. For the "no" campaign we have the simple fact of him being so far behind Kimi. For the "yes" campaign we have the fact that he is 8th in the title hunt, and it's not likely that Nico will push him down to 9th tomorrow.

8th, think about it. Would anyone really have expected him to be any higher? After all, you'd expect both Red Bulls, both Ferraris, both McLarens and Kimi to be ahead of him. And lo and behold, they are, but no one else is.

And if you then come back with the argument that if Kimi can be 3rd, most likely 4th after tomorrow, he should be up there too, then by the same merit if Vettel's 1st, Webber should be higher than 5th, if Fernando's 2nd, Massa should be higher than 7th, and if Hamilton's 4th, likely 3rd, Button should be higher than 6th. At the end of the day it is likely that of the 4 best teams their effective #1 drivers will all be ahead of the all of the #2s, and it's likely that Kimi will be 4th of the #1s, and Romain 4th of the #2s. Doesn't sound too shabby to me, especially when you consider that the other defacto #2s are nearing the end of their respective careers and he's only at the start of his, he's got far more potential to progress further from where they are than the others do.

Oh, and everyone's saying Maldonado deserves his place over and above Senna, even though Senna has usually raced better than Maldonado this year, hence far more points finishes, because he got that win. Everyone's forgotten that it isn't only the Red Bulls that have had alternator woes. After Vettel's first issue, Romain was then in the lead, judging by his pace, probably on for rather a comfortable maiden victory, until his alternator packed in too, so he also would have have that win. Also, with the confidence that that would have given him, maybe other mistakes wouldn't have happened.

Anyway, it ain't up to me, so who cares what I think.


Fantastic post


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:41 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
toilet wrote:
Personally, while I freely admit he's had too many incidents, the same can be said of many drivers who've gone on to be some of the best on the grid, everyone's long since forgotten that Massa use to crash all the time, I feel his general performance has been good enough, and I think they should keep him.

In many ways he's been under more pressure than any other driver in the field at times this year, as such it's not surprising he's ballsed it up more than a few times, lets face it, even the best make mistakes under pressure, at other times, he's been an innocent bystander but been judged perhaps a bit harshly due to his reputation. The Entsone team isn't renowned for being a secure nurturing environment for maximising the development of young drivers, perhaps he'd have done better if they treated drivers a bit better? I don't know.

What I do know though is that the "points are all that counts" argument can be spun to support either viewpoint. For the "no" campaign we have the simple fact of him being so far behind Kimi. For the "yes" campaign we have the fact that he is 8th in the title hunt, and it's not likely that Nico will push him down to 9th tomorrow.

8th, think about it. Would anyone really have expected him to be any higher? After all, you'd expect both Red Bulls, both Ferraris, both McLarens and Kimi to be ahead of him. And lo and behold, they are, but no one else is.

And if you then come back with the argument that if Kimi can be 3rd, most likely 4th after tomorrow, he should be up there too, then by the same merit if Vettel's 1st, Webber should be higher than 5th, if Fernando's 2nd, Massa should be higher than 7th, and if Hamilton's 4th, likely 3rd, Button should be higher than 6th. At the end of the day it is likely that of the 4 best teams their effective #1 drivers will all be ahead of the all of the #2s, and it's likely that Kimi will be 4th of the #1s, and Romain 4th of the #2s. Doesn't sound too shabby to me, especially when you consider that the other defacto #2s are nearing the end of their respective careers and he's only at the start of his, he's got far more potential to progress further from where they are than the others do.

Oh, and everyone's saying Maldonado deserves his place over and above Senna, even though Senna has usually raced better than Maldonado this year, hence far more points finishes, because he got that win. Everyone's forgotten that it isn't only the Red Bulls that have had alternator woes. After Vettel's first issue, Romain was then in the lead, judging by his pace, probably on for rather a comfortable maiden victory, until his alternator packed in too, so he also would have have that win. Also, with the confidence that that would have given him, maybe other mistakes wouldn't have happened.

Anyway, it ain't up to me, so who cares what I think.


Fantastic post


Oh you guys, now I will need to read it :(

*tags thread*


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:51 am 
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F1nsider wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
toilet wrote:
Personally, while I freely admit he's had too many incidents, the same can be said of many drivers who've gone on to be some of the best on the grid, everyone's long since forgotten that Massa use to crash all the time, I feel his general performance has been good enough, and I think they should keep him.

In many ways he's been under more pressure than any other driver in the field at times this year, as such it's not surprising he's ballsed it up more than a few times, lets face it, even the best make mistakes under pressure, at other times, he's been an innocent bystander but been judged perhaps a bit harshly due to his reputation. The Entsone team isn't renowned for being a secure nurturing environment for maximising the development of young drivers, perhaps he'd have done better if they treated drivers a bit better? I don't know.

What I do know though is that the "points are all that counts" argument can be spun to support either viewpoint. For the "no" campaign we have the simple fact of him being so far behind Kimi. For the "yes" campaign we have the fact that he is 8th in the title hunt, and it's not likely that Nico will push him down to 9th tomorrow.

8th, think about it. Would anyone really have expected him to be any higher? After all, you'd expect both Red Bulls, both Ferraris, both McLarens and Kimi to be ahead of him. And lo and behold, they are, but no one else is.

And if you then come back with the argument that if Kimi can be 3rd, most likely 4th after tomorrow, he should be up there too, then by the same merit if Vettel's 1st, Webber should be higher than 5th, if Fernando's 2nd, Massa should be higher than 7th, and if Hamilton's 4th, likely 3rd, Button should be higher than 6th. At the end of the day it is likely that of the 4 best teams their effective #1 drivers will all be ahead of the all of the #2s, and it's likely that Kimi will be 4th of the #1s, and Romain 4th of the #2s. Doesn't sound too shabby to me, especially when you consider that the other defacto #2s are nearing the end of their respective careers and he's only at the start of his, he's got far more potential to progress further from where they are than the others do.

Oh, and everyone's saying Maldonado deserves his place over and above Senna, even though Senna has usually raced better than Maldonado this year, hence far more points finishes, because he got that win. Everyone's forgotten that it isn't only the Red Bulls that have had alternator woes. After Vettel's first issue, Romain was then in the lead, judging by his pace, probably on for rather a comfortable maiden victory, until his alternator packed in too, so he also would have have that win. Also, with the confidence that that would have given him, maybe other mistakes wouldn't have happened.

Anyway, it ain't up to me, so who cares what I think.


Fantastic post


Oh you guys, now I will need to read it :(

*tags thread*

Well worth it! And extremely well written, too, so it's a very pleasurable read.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:57 am 
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No. He's shown sparks of brilliance, but that's as far as it has ever gone. He's way too inconsistent and not deserving of a seat in such a high up team on the grid. IMO Senna should get his seat back.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 12:25 pm 
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RickM wrote:
No. He's shown sparks of brilliance, but that's as far as it has ever gone. He's way too inconsistent and not deserving of a seat in such a high up team on the grid. IMO Senna should get his seat back.


...

Yes! Let him stay with Renault because RoGro can definitely compete with Kimi, but he needs consistancy. Give him another year. He's assertive and I like his personality, Senna would be my last guy to contact. I like Bruno, but if he gets a seat, he needs to improve.

If, anyone replaces RoGro... Go after Koboyashi instead.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 12:30 pm 
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He's shown genuine pace this year, it's his first season in Formula 1 and it's debatable whether Lotus would be able to replace him with anyone better.

He has areas where he needs to improve on, but name me one driver on the grid who was the complete package after their first season?


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 1:00 pm 
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toilet wrote:
Personally, while I freely admit he's had too many incidents, the same can be said of many drivers who've gone on to be some of the best on the grid, everyone's long since forgotten that Massa use to crash all the time, I feel his general performance has been good enough, and I think they should keep him.

In many ways he's been under more pressure than any other driver in the field at times this year, as such it's not surprising he's ballsed it up more than a few times, lets face it, even the best make mistakes under pressure, at other times, he's been an innocent bystander but been judged perhaps a bit harshly due to his reputation. The Entsone team isn't renowned for being a secure nurturing environment for maximising the development of young drivers, perhaps he'd have done better if they treated drivers a bit better? I don't know.

What I do know though is that the "points are all that counts" argument can be spun to support either viewpoint. For the "no" campaign we have the simple fact of him being so far behind Kimi. For the "yes" campaign we have the fact that he is 8th in the title hunt, and it's not likely that Nico will push him down to 9th tomorrow.

8th, think about it. Would anyone really have expected him to be any higher? After all, you'd expect both Red Bulls, both Ferraris, both McLarens and Kimi to be ahead of him. And lo and behold, they are, but no one else is.

And if you then come back with the argument that if Kimi can be 3rd, most likely 4th after tomorrow, he should be up there too, then by the same merit if Vettel's 1st, Webber should be higher than 5th, if Fernando's 2nd, Massa should be higher than 7th, and if Hamilton's 4th, likely 3rd, Button should be higher than 6th. At the end of the day it is likely that of the 4 best teams their effective #1 drivers will all be ahead of the all of the #2s, and it's likely that Kimi will be 4th of the #1s, and Romain 4th of the #2s. Doesn't sound too shabby to me, especially when you consider that the other defacto #2s are nearing the end of their respective careers and he's only at the start of his, he's got far more potential to progress further from where they are than the others do.

Oh, and everyone's saying Maldonado deserves his place over and above Senna, even though Senna has usually raced better than Maldonado this year, hence far more points finishes, because he got that win. Everyone's forgotten that it isn't only the Red Bulls that have had alternator woes. After Vettel's first issue, Romain was then in the lead, judging by his pace, probably on for rather a comfortable maiden victory, until his alternator packed in too, so he also would have have that win. Also, with the confidence that that would have given him, maybe other mistakes wouldn't have happened.

Anyway, it ain't up to me, so who cares what I think.

while I agree that he wouldn't have been expected to finish much higher than 8th, it's the manner in which he has done it and the points he's clearly thrown away that raise the big questions. According to this he's completed fewer laps than anyone else on the grid, which is even more noticeable when his team mate is at completely the opposite end of the scale with the highest number of laps overall. The amount of points he has thrown away has not only cost him 7th at least but also his team a chance at 3rd and possibly even 2nd in the WCC.

Anyway, despite all that I think he deserves a second chance as he has shown good speed and has made some solid overtakes this season. Hopefully the end of season break will allow him to build his confidence back, but I shouldn't be surprised if Lotus had a Plan B if he shows signs of still being crash happy in the early part of next season.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 1:25 pm 
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Not intending to start a sub-arguement here, but he is being called fast due to his comparison with Kimi.

We really dont know how quick a driver Kimi is now. Kimi has such a good track record he may well be driving well within himself. If so RG may not even be that good.



(dont make this into a Kiki is a racing god thread, its about RG. I think Kimi is driving well, but just saying like init?)

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 1:55 pm 
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They should retain him and make the car missile proof.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 1:55 pm 
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moby wrote:
Not intending to start a sub-arguement here, but he is being called fast due to his comparison with Kimi.

We really dont know how quick a driver Kimi is now. Kimi has such a good track record he may well be driving well within himself. If so RG may not even be that good.



(dont make this into a Kiki is a racing god thread, its about RG. I think Kimi is driving well, but just saying like init?)


we dont know how quick kimi is???

watch hungary again, the guy who set fastest lap over fastest lap on worn out tyre and jump 3 cars in front by 1 pit stop alone.

it nvr cease to amuse me how people underestimate Kimi.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 2:28 pm 
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He's very fast. I regard him in the same I regard Maldonado and Hamilton in his earlier years; if he can get to the end of the race consistently he'd be a title challenger. But he can't. So he won't. I'd rather see Kobayashi in there as a no2 to Kimi; that would give Lotus a proper shout at the constructors.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 2:33 pm 
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toilet wrote:
Personally, while I freely admit he's had too many incidents, the same can be said of many drivers who've gone on to be some of the best on the grid, everyone's long since forgotten that Massa use to crash all the time, I feel his general performance has been good enough, and I think they should keep him.

In many ways he's been under more pressure than any other driver in the field at times this year, as such it's not surprising he's ballsed it up more than a few times, lets face it, even the best make mistakes under pressure, at other times, he's been an innocent bystander but been judged perhaps a bit harshly due to his reputation. The Entsone team isn't renowned for being a secure nurturing environment for maximising the development of young drivers, perhaps he'd have done better if they treated drivers a bit better? I don't know.

What I do know though is that the "points are all that counts" argument can be spun to support either viewpoint. For the "no" campaign we have the simple fact of him being so far behind Kimi. For the "yes" campaign we have the fact that he is 8th in the title hunt, and it's not likely that Nico will push him down to 9th tomorrow.

8th, think about it. Would anyone really have expected him to be any higher? After all, you'd expect both Red Bulls, both Ferraris, both McLarens and Kimi to be ahead of him. And lo and behold, they are, but no one else is.

And if you then come back with the argument that if Kimi can be 3rd, most likely 4th after tomorrow, he should be up there too, then by the same merit if Vettel's 1st, Webber should be higher than 5th, if Fernando's 2nd, Massa should be higher than 7th, and if Hamilton's 4th, likely 3rd, Button should be higher than 6th. At the end of the day it is likely that of the 4 best teams their effective #1 drivers will all be ahead of the all of the #2s, and it's likely that Kimi will be 4th of the #1s, and Romain 4th of the #2s. Doesn't sound too shabby to me, especially when you consider that the other defacto #2s are nearing the end of their respective careers and he's only at the start of his, he's got far more potential to progress further from where they are than the others do.

Oh, and everyone's saying Maldonado deserves his place over and above Senna, even though Senna has usually raced better than Maldonado this year, hence far more points finishes, because he got that win. Everyone's forgotten that it isn't only the Red Bulls that have had alternator woes. After Vettel's first issue, Romain was then in the lead, judging by his pace, probably on for rather a comfortable maiden victory, until his alternator packed in too, so he also would have have that win. Also, with the confidence that that would have given him, maybe other mistakes wouldn't have happened.

Anyway, it ain't up to me, so who cares what I think.


Small correction, Grosjean wasn't in the lead when his alternator failed, he was overtaken by Alonso.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 2:42 pm 
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He's got pace but lacks that racer instinct, this year i think he has cost Lotus 3rd place in the constructors. Kimi is 3rd in the drivers championship with 1 win and a handful of podiums so the car is pretty good. I think if it was not for Grosjeans erratic driving he would have picked up a lot more points and Lotus would be pretty close to 3rd in the constructors. If i was Eric Boullier i think i would give him another chance he's got a lot of potential and im sure the errati driving will pass and we will see a stronger Grosjean next year.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 2:45 pm 
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the beauty of making mistake...we always learn from it....sadly romain has too much of mistake, and too less of learning out of it.

I hope he stays though!!


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 2:48 pm 
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They should retain him as a janitor and make him clean toilets until he's paid for all the cars he wrecked.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 2:51 pm 
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He's done enough to keep his seat IMO. But he has to cut out the mistakes very quickly next season or he should come under some serious pressure.

How many viable alternatives are there?

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 2:54 pm 
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GingerFurball wrote:
He's shown genuine pace this year, it's his first season in Formula 1 and it's debatable whether Lotus would be able to replace him with anyone better.

He has areas where he needs to improve on, but name me one driver on the grid who was the complete package after their first season?

That's the kicker here.
No matter whether people think a driver's good or bad, you need to find a replacement who's better otherwise you'd be stupid to replace them at all.

So, who could Lotus get who's better?


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:00 pm 
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Those of you who want Grosjean to be dropped, you're a disgrace!

Are you blind?


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:01 pm 
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No way, it's just a complete waste. He shows good speed for some races during a season but most of them he ruins them with mistakes or being involved in incidents, shocking so many backup this kind of driving really, but he does seem to have fans allot where saving he's a future WDC / Great :lol:

He's costing the team dearly in the constructors, it's teams image and in money for repair bills. He needs to be replaced ASAP if Lotus want to challenge the top 3 properly next season and go for the title.

Romain just does not have what it takes as a racer to be in F1, as stated he can show good speed sometimes but it's no good showing good speed and good results for 2-4 races in a season ad then the rest you can't do anything.

Far to inconsistent with poor race craft, more of a hot lap driver. He's already been given enough chances to show if he can take it in F1, and he just keeps failing, even costing other driver's dearly as a result of his poor driving. The standings and incidents don't lie, time to get rid.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:36 pm 
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OutKast wrote:
RickM wrote:
No. He's shown sparks of brilliance, but that's as far as it has ever gone. He's way too inconsistent and not deserving of a seat in such a high up team on the grid. IMO Senna should get his seat back.


...

Yes! Let him stay with Renault because RoGro can definitely compete with Kimi, but he needs consistancy. Give him another year. He's assertive and I like his personality, Senna would be my last guy to contact. I like Bruno, but if he gets a seat, he needs to improve.

If, anyone replaces RoGro... Go after Koboyashi instead.


Retirements this year:

Grosjean: 6 (plus 1 ban)
Senna: 1
KOB: 4

Now, had MSC not drove into the back of Senna in Spain, he'd have had a perfect season.

Senna was crap last year, but he's come on leaps and bounds this year.

Who deserves more of a chance:

- A guy who's had a near faultless year
- A guy who's crashed several times, has gained a reputation as being a person you dont want to be in front of on the grid, and who still seems to find it hard to believe that he's the one at fault.

Grosjean's already on his second chance - he doesnt deserve another one.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:42 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
toilet wrote:
some tripe

while I agree that he wouldn't have been expected to finish much higher than 8th, it's the manner in which he has done it and the points he's clearly thrown away that raise the big questions. According to this he's completed fewer laps than anyone else on the grid, which is even more noticeable when his team mate is at completely the opposite end of the scale with the highest number of laps overall. The amount of points he has thrown away has not only cost him 7th at least but also his team a chance at 3rd and possibly even 2nd in the WCC.

Anyway, despite all that I think he deserves a second chance as he has shown good speed and has made some solid overtakes this season. Hopefully the end of season break will allow him to build his confidence back, but I shouldn't be surprised if Lotus had a Plan B if he shows signs of still being crash happy in the early part of next season.


The only thing with that is that it's all "ifs" and "buts". As has been discussed ad nauseum in the many "how many points has Hamilton had stolen from him by McLaren who clearly hate every fiber of his being and would shoot him in the face with a shot gun if they got the chance" threads, nobody will ever know what would have happened if he hadn't of had those incidents or if someone else had been in the car.

Although I freely admit he has clearly thrown away many points, many of those incidents where certainly not of his making, or at the very least nothing more than racing incidents, and as such shouldn't be held against him, but are because he's gained a reputation, fairly or not. As mentioned, many other drivers have before, it just takes time, usually several seasons, to work that off.

I totally agree, I'd not be surprised if they've got a plan B, but hope he gets some confidence and begins to shine.

sultanofhyd wrote:
toilet wrote:
stuff


Small correction, Grosjean wasn't in the lead when his alternator failed, he was overtaken by Alonso.


Small, but highly significant. However, even if it was only a 2nd, that would have been a handy addition.

az1 wrote:
toilet wrote:
The Entsone team isn't renowned for being a secure nurturing environment for maximising the development of young drivers, perhaps he'd have done better if they treated drivers a bit better? I don't know.


I think that was a fair comment in the Briatore/Alonso days. Pretty hard for a rookie to succeed in those days obviously. But I don't think it has applied this season. The team has been +very+ supportive of Grosjean right from the start, if anything more supportive of him than of Kimi.


Okay, Briatore was a nutcase, so yes, it is different now. But, although the team have been saying that they've been being supportive, on the other hand they've also been openly very critical of him. They also seemed to think that the best way to stop a driver making errors (a driver who had clearly had a knock to his confidence, and had every reason to be fearful of having the rug pulled out from under him, seeing as it had already been done to him once before for no apparent reason, by this very team) was to remove any sense of job security from him, making it publicly very clear that he has been racing for his F1 life, not just at every race, but at every single corner. Being put under that sort of pressure is hardly being supportive, he was only ever going to make more mistakes. Even the very best drivers ever make mistakes under such pressure.

The team could have lifted this pressure at any point by simply making a decision, to keep him or to not keep him, either way, the pressure would have been lifted, and it's reasonable to assume he'd have made fewer mistakes. Although that is just speculation.

To those questioning his pace, or racing instinct, just check out how he dominated the GP2 season last year. Romain is very fast, and knows how to race. This is only his 1st full season, given the time to mature I've no doubt he'll stop these mistakes, lets face it, Massa doesn't do it any more, Hamilton's stopped doing it, even Seb's stopped doing it, yet in 2010 when he won his 1st title, in what was his his 3rd full season, he couldn't stop making stupid errors.

Anyway, F1's a notoriously harsh business, many a worthy driver has fallen by the way side for one reason or another, and we'll find out what's going to happen soon enough.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:43 pm 
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Second chance? He's had more then that. First stint in F1, second stint in F1, and then the incidents, race ban, and then after that he still gets in more incidents.

Doing well in GP2 don't mean nothing if you cant do it in F1.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:45 pm 
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NvrDieYoung wrote:
moby wrote:
Not intending to start a sub-arguement here, but he is being called fast due to his comparison with Kimi.

We really dont know how quick a driver Kimi is now. Kimi has such a good track record he may well be driving well within himself. If so RG may not even be that good.



(dont make this into a Kiki is a racing god thread, its about RG. I think Kimi is driving well, but just saying like init?)


we dont know how quick kimi is???

watch hungary again, the guy who set fastest lap over fastest lap on worn out tyre and jump 3 cars in front by 1 pit stop alone.

it nvr cease to amuse me how people underestimate Kimi.


I dont think anyone believes Kimi is not capable of being quick, but is he 100% all the time? Was he in Hungary, it was not a normal race, as Vettel was 4th and Webber was 8th, but then Senna was 7th which is not his usual position

So i still say that although it looks as if he is matching Kimi, He is on half the points. 96 points while Kimi is on 206 and does not seem to have to had push himself while Grosjens has been on or over the limit more than a few times

Also like i said, dont make it about Kimi

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:51 pm 
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they should get rid of him, too many points thrown away and too much $$$ for the team, no excuses

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