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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:54 am 
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Sharpen your claws for this one :D

After reading the James Allen article comparing Hamilton and Button, I was wondering if bringing Button in to challenge Hamilton destabilised not only the team, but Hamilton as well.

Now there are and have been plenty of threads on this, so pleas no 'Button was held back' or Hamilton was Rons favorite' type replies, just would Mclaren the team have been better off keeping Hamilton and Kovi or maybe bringing in a driver from mid-field?

Dont make it driver v driver, or team v one driver. We will see how it develops as Buttons team next year, so skip that too.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:56 am 
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20 pages.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:58 am 
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Good luck with that one.

You just casually rolled a grenade into a packed room.

*sits back and watches* :lol: :lol:


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:58 am 
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No.

Hamilton's problems have stemmed largely from reliability this season. Without them he would likely be WDC. Last year the Mclaren just wasn't fast enough, same as the year before. Nothing to do with Hamilton or his team mate.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:25 pm 
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kingjamie wrote:
20 pages.



Maybe more.. :lol:


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:28 pm 
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Perhaps the competition posed by Jenson actually pushed Lewis to the heights he hit this year

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:30 pm 
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SilverstoneRegular wrote:
Perhaps the competition posed by Jenson actually pushed Lewis to the heights he hit this year


Or put him under more stress to perform and push the envelope a little too far, which resulted in DNFs?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:31 pm 
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No it wasn't a mistake at all. I don't believe that McLaren's support of Button has cost Hamilton the championship in the last 3 years, but do think the team will be more than happy with the points Button has contributed.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:44 pm 
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I think most of McLaren's problems have been caused by problems with the car or just bad luck like getting caught up in collisions really. If Red Bull hadn't produced such top notch cars I think we'd have problem seen a McLaren champion in 2011 and it would have been between the McLarens and Alonso in 2010 and 2012 (I'm not knocking Vettel but until the Red Bull car suddenly got better this year he wasn't in the title race at all).

If McLaren had produced a real top car in all three years I think we could have seen a Senna/Prost style battle for the title within McLaren but their performance has been too hit and miss and this year when they finally had a really fast car reliability was poor and a number of mistakes and unlucky incidents occurred.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:55 pm 
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No.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:57 pm 
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moby wrote:
Sharpen your claws for this one :D

After reading the James Allen article comparing Hamilton and Button, I was wondering if bringing Button in to challenge Hamilton destabilised not only the team, but Hamilton as well.

Now there are and have been plenty of threads on this, so pleas no 'Button was held back' or Hamilton was Rons favorite' type replies, just would Mclaren the team have been better off keeping Hamilton and Kovi or maybe bringing in a driver from mid-field?

Dont make it driver v driver, or team v one driver. We will see how it develops as Buttons team next year, so skip that too.

You keep asking - No this and No that.

Yet you purposely start a topic which you KNOW is going to wind people up. Fact is Button and Lewis ended up on similar points after 3 years. End of.

I wonder if people did the same comparisons on the likes of Massa/Alonso and Webber/Vettel we all know who will come on top and by more then just a few points. People can argue reliability, setups etc etc But at the end of the day Button/Lewis in Mclaren was a good partnership.

Brazil did one thing and it showed us true strength and weaknesses of both drivers.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:02 pm 
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Teddy007 wrote:
moby wrote:
Sharpen your claws for this one :D

After reading the James Allen article comparing Hamilton and Button, I was wondering if bringing Button in to challenge Hamilton destabilised not only the team, but Hamilton as well.

Now there are and have been plenty of threads on this, so pleas no 'Button was held back' or Hamilton was Rons favorite' type replies, just would Mclaren the team have been better off keeping Hamilton and Kovi or maybe bringing in a driver from mid-field?

Dont make it driver v driver, or team v one driver. We will see how it develops as Buttons team next year, so skip that too.

You keep asking - No this and No that.

Yet you purposely start a topic which you KNOW is going to wind people up. Fact is Button and Lewis ended up on similar points after 3 years. End of.

I wonder if people did the same comparisons on the likes of Massa/Alonso and Webber/Vettel we all know who will come on top and by more then just a few points. People can argue reliability, setups etc etc But at the end of the day Button/Lewis in Mclaren was a good partnership.

Brazil did one thing and it showed us true strength and weaknesses of both drivers.

Really? Do elaborate.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:05 pm 
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It's all because Red Bull made such a good car so Mclaren & Hamilton had to push more than they wanted to win, making mistakes.

Next year, no one will expect Hamilton to win the WDC so pressure will be off, he'll drive well and maybe grab a podium here and there.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:05 pm 
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No a team should always endevor to have the two best drivers it can and Button and Hamilton have worked well together.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:06 pm 
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Teddy007 wrote:
moby wrote:
Sharpen your claws for this one :D

After reading the James Allen article comparing Hamilton and Button, I was wondering if bringing Button in to challenge Hamilton destabilised not only the team, but Hamilton as well.

Now there are and have been plenty of threads on this, so pleas no 'Button was held back' or Hamilton was Rons favorite' type replies, just would Mclaren the team have been better off keeping Hamilton and Kovi or maybe bringing in a driver from mid-field?

Dont make it driver v driver, or team v one driver. We will see how it develops as Buttons team next year, so skip that too.

You keep asking - No this and No that.

Yet you purposely start a topic which you KNOW is going to wind people up. Fact is Button and Lewis ended up on similar points after 3 years. End of.

I wonder if people did the same comparisons on the likes of Massa/Alonso and Webber/Vettel we all know who will come on top and by more then just a few points. People can argue reliability, setups etc etc But at the end of the day Button/Lewis in Mclaren was a good partnership.

Brazil did one thing and it showed us true strength and weaknesses of both drivers.


And your point is? Without a driver list if you can.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:07 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
No a team should always endevor to have the two best drivers it can and Button and Hamilton have worked well together.

Hasn't won them anything though. Whereas RBR's clear one driver policy has won them every thing over the same period. Granted they often had a better car than the rest but Mclaren did have a very good car for a large part of those three years.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:17 pm 
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PzR Slim wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
No a team should always endevor to have the two best drivers it can and Button and Hamilton have worked well together.

Hasn't won them anything though. Whereas RBR's clear one driver policy has won them every thing over the same period. Granted they often had a better car than the rest but Mclaren did have a very good car for a large part of those three years.


Mclarens failure has nothing to do with the drivers. Do you think that there lack of reliability or pitstop problems this year have anything to do with having two good drivers? In 2010 Hamilton was in contention for the tittle up to the last race in the 3rd best car so I don't think having Button as his team mate hurt him to badly.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:20 pm 
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Lewis' problems were his own, just as Jens' problems were his. Neither of them managed to maintain enough focus and galvanize the team around them to fight to the end of a championship season. Thats not a slight on either driver. Far from it. I respect both drivers and their different qualities as drivers. But to say it was Jens' fault that Lewis couldn't put together a title challenge is silly.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:23 pm 
Did Button destabilize the team--- like Hamilton did when he arrived and caused Alonso to leave?

Absolutely not. Button was non confrontational. Unlike Hamilton who disobeyed team orders while Alonso was there.

Hamilton not Button is the master of Hamilton's situation.

The silver lining is that Hamilton ended the season on a high note, and now he can become a man (helping a struggling team)


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:28 pm 
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Playing devils advocate with some posters here.

Examples
Oz Button 1 Hamilton 3
China Button 2 Hamilton 3
Japan Button 3 Hamilton 4

There are more races where Button finished infornt of Hamilton and he Lost points and the reverse is also true for Button when Hamilton finished infront of him.

Not suggesting Button should have let him past, but a lesser driver may have been a place behind him rather than infront of him


Last edited by moby on Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:29 pm 
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moby wrote:
SilverstoneRegular wrote:
Perhaps the competition posed by Jenson actually pushed Lewis to the heights he hit this year


Or put him under more stress to perform and push the envelope a little too far, which resulted in DNFs?


Only one of his DNFs were his fault, and even that you could argue was 50/50. I fail to see your logic here.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:33 pm 
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kerneys wrote:
moby wrote:
SilverstoneRegular wrote:
Perhaps the competition posed by Jenson actually pushed Lewis to the heights he hit this year


Or put him under more stress to perform and push the envelope a little too far, which resulted in DNFs?


Only one of his DNFs were his fault, and even that you could argue was 50/50. I fail to see your logic here.


True, but what I was getting at is more or less what I posted in the reply above. IT is not just the actions on the track, but race strategy. Hamilton may never have been in those places with a different strategy, then he may have been worse off too


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:33 pm 
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No.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:45 pm 
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moby wrote:
SilverstoneRegular wrote:
Perhaps the competition posed by Jenson actually pushed Lewis to the heights he hit this year


Or put him under more stress to perform and push the envelope a little too far, which resulted in DNFs?


Which happened only twice in 2010 (one of which was debatable) and absolutely zero times this season.

Also...
1. Keeping Kovalainen was not good from a team perspective at all. He was never going to deliver a constructors title even in a championship capable car. Button had proved in 2009 that he could lead a title challenge. Unfortunately, there was only one of three seasons where both JB and Lewis performed up to standard, and the car wasn't quick enough that year.
2. Kovalainen couldn't help Hamilton's title challenge when Lewis had bad races. Results such as Jenson's win in Belgium and second place in Germany proved he was up to that task.

I still maintain that Button was a good team-mate for Lewis. Only in 2011, when Jenson was the better driver and Lewis was not a WDC contender, did Jenson take points away from Lewis on a consistent basis.

That is good - You want a driver who isn't a pushover but who can also lead the team when the faster driver isn't performing so well. Just look at Webber this year - He raced Vettel several times this season and even led Vettel at one point, but you don't hear any Vettel fans saying Webber de-stabilised Vettel's title challenge. And the reason why you don't hear that is because Red Bull has had a more reliable car than McLaren this year and the RB team made far less pit stop and strategical errors than McLaren.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:54 pm 
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moby wrote:
True, but what I was getting at is more or less what I posted in the reply above. IT is not just the actions on the track, but race strategy. Hamilton may never have been in those places with a different strategy, then he may have been worse off too


Ok, the only instance of a DNF from a bad strategy call I can think of is Spa. You could argue that if he had gone the correct way on setup he may have qualified higher and may not have been caught up in the 1st corner incident with RoGro.

All his other DNFs either came as a result of bad luck (the punture in Germany), someone ploughing in to him or mechanical failure - nothing to do with strategy.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:55 pm 
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I wonder if Button's 2011 performance actually helped Hamilton. With a weaker teammate LH may have come out on top in the inter-team battle, even after a poor performance during the year. If that had happened one wonders if he'd have been forced to take the long hard look at himself that seems to have resulted in renewed form.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:58 pm 
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moby wrote:
I was wondering if bringing Button in to challenge Hamilton destabilised not only the team, but Hamilton as well.

Are you implying that bringing Button in destabilised the team?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:13 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
moby wrote:
I was wondering if bringing Button in to challenge Hamilton destabilised not only the team, but Hamilton as well.

Are you implying that bringing Button in destabilised the team?


No. I actually think they are a good team and they get equal treatment. TBH I posted as a chat as I have little to do today not to start an argument, thats why I did not want to get into 'my driver is better than XXX'

The 3 other 'top' teams, RBR Ferrari and Lotus have definite first and second drivers, if they admit it or not. I dont think Mclaren have. There must have been times over 3 seasons when 1 driver either took points form another or wanted to go in a different direction, or were told to use a set up opposite to each other if they want to or not. All fair calls within a team. I dont buy into 'destabilised' or 'chosen one' etc, but which ever driver you choose, just by being infront of eachother it has made them take different decisions or use different or more tyres or change at different times.
Would Mclaren, either driver, have been in a better position if a driver not quite as good and dare I say mature as Button was the 'other' driver.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:24 pm 
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Don't you people get BORED with the lewis-vs-button threads?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:28 pm 
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Banana Man wrote:
No.

Hamilton's problems have stemmed largely from reliability this season. Without them he would likely be WDC. Last year the Mclaren just wasn't fast enough, same as the year before. Nothing to do with Hamilton or his team mate.

Exactly this. :thumbup:

It wouldn't have mattered who Lewis' team mate was, unless Button's been sneaking around sabotaging Lewis' car in the garage ;)


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:32 pm 
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flavio81 wrote:
Don't you people get BORED with the lewis-vs-button threads?


YES thats why I asked specifically not to make it into one. Did you read that part or were you looking for front up your driver over the other?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:35 pm 
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moby wrote:
Covalent wrote:
moby wrote:
I was wondering if bringing Button in to challenge Hamilton destabilised not only the team, but Hamilton as well.

Are you implying that bringing Button in destabilised the team?


No. I actually think they are a good team and they get equal treatment. TBH I posted as a chat as I have little to do today not to start an argument, thats why I did not want to get into 'my driver is better than XXX'

The 3 other 'top' teams, RBR Ferrari and Lotus have definite first and second drivers, if they admit it or not. I dont think Mclaren have. There must have been times over 3 seasons when 1 driver either took points form another or wanted to go in a different direction, or were told to use a set up opposite to each other if they want to or not. All fair calls within a team. I dont buy into 'destabilised' or 'chosen one' etc, but which ever driver you choose, just by being infront of eachother it has made them take different decisions or use different or more tyres or change at different times.
Would Mclaren, either driver, have been in a better position if a driver not quite as good and dare I say mature as Button was the 'other' driver.

See I don't think they do, with the exception of Ferrari. If Vettel is number one there it's because he's earned it, not because he's been given any preferential treatment; Mark's only be able to challenge him occasionally but not enough to assert any kind of dominance. Vette's simply a better driver than Mark is and has been for the last three years at least. And you appear not to have read the Kimi thread for the first half of this year when many of his fans were complaining that Grosjean was getting favoured treatment at Lotus. Again, Kimi became the preferred driver in the latter half of the year because he earned it with his performances, not because of any contractual position.

Lewis, despite being the faster driver overall, has not really been that dominant over his team mate. This year he was excellent and IMO the more consistent, better driver overall. But last year the situation was reversed. There has not really been a reason for McLaren to make him number one before now.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:35 pm 
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Maybe, but if that is true then it is on the team that they failed to accommodate to similarly competitive drivers. RBR seem to make it work (most of the time)


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:36 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Banana Man wrote:
No.

Hamilton's problems have stemmed largely from reliability this season. Without them he would likely be WDC. Last year the Mclaren just wasn't fast enough, same as the year before. Nothing to do with Hamilton or his team mate.

Exactly this. :thumbup:

It wouldn't have mattered who Lewis' team mate was, unless Button's been sneaking around sabotaging Lewis' car in the garage ;)


-1

I don't believe he would have reached Vettel or Alonso who where in a class of there own this year, but probably Kimi.
I agree that he finished the season well, but then the pressure of negotiations and WDC was already off his back.

Taking Jenson on was good for McLaren IMO, he brings maturity and stability to the team, that way they can take on a Perez.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:39 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
moby wrote:
Covalent wrote:
moby wrote:
I was wondering if bringing Button in to challenge Hamilton destabilised not only the team, but Hamilton as well.

Are you implying that bringing Button in destabilised the team?


No. I actually think they are a good team and they get equal treatment. TBH I posted as a chat as I have little to do today not to start an argument, thats why I did not want to get into 'my driver is better than XXX'

The 3 other 'top' teams, RBR Ferrari and Lotus have definite first and second drivers, if they admit it or not. I dont think Mclaren have. There must have been times over 3 seasons when 1 driver either took points form another or wanted to go in a different direction, or were told to use a set up opposite to each other if they want to or not. All fair calls within a team. I dont buy into 'destabilised' or 'chosen one' etc, but which ever driver you choose, just by being infront of eachother it has made them take different decisions or use different or more tyres or change at different times.
Would Mclaren, either driver, have been in a better position if a driver not quite as good and dare I say mature as Button was the 'other' driver.

See I don't think they do, with the exception of Ferrari. If Vettel is number one there it's because he's earned it, not because he's been given any preferential treatment; Mark's only be able to challenge him occasionally but not enough to assert any kind of dominance. Vette's simply a better driver than Mark is and has been for the last three years at least. And you appear not to have read the Kimi thread for the first half of this year when many of his fans were complaining that Grosjean was getting favoured treatment at Lotus. Again, Kimi became the preferred driver in the latter half of the year because he earned it with his performances, not because of any contractual position.

Lewis, despite being the faster driver overall, has not really been that dominant over his team mate. This year he was excellent and IMO the more consistent, better driver overall. But last year the situation was reversed. There has not really been a reason for McLaren to make him number one before now.



I agree with what you say, but I intended to mean 'better driver' rather then 'chosen driver' No matter how well they have performed, I dont think many could claim Webber is better than Vettell or Grojens is better than Kimi.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:41 pm 
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M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:
Maybe, but if that is true then it is on the team that they failed to accommodate to similarly competitive drivers. RBR seem to make it work (most of the time)

Yeah, Red Bull seem to have managed it admirably. Yet I still think that McLaren's issues this year have nothing to do with driver management and everything to do with mistakes and reliability. Without them I think they had a good enough car and drivers to challenge for the top. Opportunity missed


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:44 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Banana Man wrote:
No.

Hamilton's problems have stemmed largely from reliability this season. Without them he would likely be WDC. Last year the Mclaren just wasn't fast enough, same as the year before. Nothing to do with Hamilton or his team mate.

Exactly this. :thumbup:

It wouldn't have mattered who Lewis' team mate was, unless Button's been sneaking around sabotaging Lewis' car in the garage ;)


:thumbup:
I'm glad there are like-minded people on the forum who can explain things much more simply than I can.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:31 pm 
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the answer to this post is................................yes.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:46 pm 
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Yes.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:50 pm 
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Obviously not, taking on Hamilton on the other hand....


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