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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:53 pm 
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Vettel did it without the help of Webber as he was even fighting Vettel for positions. Alonso needs the help of other drivers like Massa


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:55 pm 
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Fishy wrote:
Vettel did it without the help of Webber as he was even fighting Vettel for positions. Alonso needs the help of other drivers like Massa


Then what was that radio message "Thank you Mark" after he had let Vettel by?

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 8:01 pm 
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You will find that Alonso has been the luckiest this season by a country mile. Not only has he had the reliability and leaders make way for him one way or the other, he is the only chap in the entire grid to actually have a lap dog for a teammate. His luck probably surpasses that of 23 other drivers on the grid put together.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 8:03 pm 
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Don't think so. Every race this year, he has performed to potential. Every runner in the field has benefited from someone else's bad luck at some stage (except Hamilton, who did a Raikkonen 2005). You could argue that Alonso was the luckiest.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 8:05 pm 
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PacificBeach wrote:
Alonso got two fast teammates in his career and got his donkey handed to him (one of them a rookie).

In equal cars, Vettel would beat Alonso. Alonso always struggles against fast teammates...


This. I have said it before and got bashed for it. While it's obvious that Alonso is an extraordinary and talented driver, once he is put against a strong team mate that gives him a good run for his money, he starts to crack under pressure. Without clear preferential treatment, he starts a drama show and the worst of his character shows up. It's a shame really that he is how he is in these situations, but nobody's perfect after all, Alonso included. That's one of the few, if not the only major flaw of him.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 8:06 pm 
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I'd honestly like to see the six best drivers in the 3 worst teams next year, just to see what they could do in them to prove they are worth the hype.

On topic: I see people are saying Alonso was lucky because Hulk and Hammy had a coming together (Gee that sounds ruder then I intended) however that too gave Vettel a place with Hamy's retirement, so they were both lucky on that score.

Alonso (I still hate that name -.-'') had a extremely poor car, really bad but the team's strategies were a massive help to him in the first few months, which is what kept him there, as well as luck, the same could be said with Vettel, both worthy of the title, but Vettel lucked out in Brazil with not having a suspension failure after such a knock to the wheel as well as the side.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 8:07 pm 
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We can look at just about any season and say the WDC got lucky. Hamilton was lucky that Glock gave out on the last lap, Alonso was lucky that Schumi's car let go in the last two races of 2006, Senna was lucky he didn't get a big penalty in 1990, etc. We can speculate all we want, but the only solid fact is that Vettel won the world championship.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 8:10 pm 
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The_Iceman wrote:
We can look at just about any season and say the WDC got lucky. Hamilton was lucky that Glock gave out on the last lap, Alonso was lucky that Schumi's car let go in the last two races of 2006, Senna was lucky he didn't get a big penalty in 1990, etc. We can speculate all we want, but the only solid fact is that Vettel won the world championship.

Indeed. Still, running quickly through my memory, I can't recall any particularly lucky Ferrari titles. :lol: 2007 with Kimi is arguable, but it could also be argued Hamilton was lucky not to have had all his points taken away.........


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 8:11 pm 
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sparky wrote:
I'd honestly like to see the six best drivers in the 3 worst teams next year, just to see what they could do in them to prove they are worth the hype.

On topic: I see people are saying Alonso was lucky because Hulk and Hammy had a coming together (Gee that sounds ruder then I intended) however that too gave Vettel a place with Hamy's retirement, so they were both lucky on that score.

Alonso (I still hate that name -.-'') had a extremely poor car, really bad but the team's strategies were a massive help to him in the first few months, which is what kept him there, as well as luck, the same could be said with Vettel, both worthy of the title, but Vettel lucked out in Brazil with not having a suspension failure after such a knock to the wheel as well as the side.

If they hadn't crashed then it wouldn't have made any difference where Vettel had finished because Alonso would have only finished 4th and lost the WDC anyway, so it definitely only benefited Alonso....

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 8:11 pm 
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Just in the process of getting smashed, thanks for the comedy thread OP!

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 8:11 pm 
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sparky wrote:
On topic: I see people are saying Alonso was lucky because Hulk and Hammy had a coming together (Gee that sounds ruder then I intended) however that too gave Vettel a place with Hamy's retirement, so they were both lucky on that score.

not really....

Without Hulk/Lewis incident Alonso would have been a distant 4th and would not have a chance even if Vettel got a heart attack on the track.


Last edited by PacificBeach on Sun Nov 25, 2012 8:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 8:11 pm 
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chinki wrote:
You will find that Alonso has been the luckiest this season by a country mile. Not only has he had the reliability and leaders make way for him one way or the other, he is the only chap in the entire grid to actually have a lap dog for a teammate. His luck probably surpasses that of 23 other drivers on the grid put together.
And Webber never did as he was told? add to that Vettel had a whole other team make way for him and this race even a fellow countryman x(

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 8:17 pm 
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No. Fully deserved!

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 8:22 pm 
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No one can win a world championship in this level of sport on luck alone. Congrats Sebastian.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 9:09 pm 
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RaisinChips wrote:
Fishy wrote:
Vettel did it without the help of Webber as he was even fighting Vettel for positions. Alonso needs the help of other drivers like Massa


Then what was that radio message "Thank you Mark" after he had let Vettel by?


That is nothing but lies. Vettel did not have radio, he was not even able to tell the team that he is coming in for inters, let alone thank Mark Weber during such a tense period. If anything, Weber should be scolded for squeezing Vettel on the start and compromising his start, also for going wheel to wheel with Vettel while he was already fighting Kobayashi. Red Bull really need to reevaluate Weber's commitment to their interests.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 9:14 pm 
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lunatic wrote:
And Webber never did as he was told?


Only when he really, really has to. You aren't going to argue that Massa is far more of an obedient driver than Webber, right?
I mean, Massa gets grid penalties just for the sake of moving Alonso one place up, and is never ever allowed to stay in front of Alonso. Webber IS allowed to stay in front of Vettel - just not in the closing stages of the season when he's out of contention for the WDC.

Not that I'm saying that Ferrari shouldn't do it - in fact, I think they're playing the team game far better. Massa was awesome today in playing wingman and I have huge respect for him today.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 9:15 pm 
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Luck plays a massive part in any championship, go look at Alonso's 2nd championship, or pretty much any other championship and luck is one of the most important factors of all. Obviously Vettel got lucky, but he also drove amazingly well and sure he had a better car than Alonso for pretty much all of the season, but he also had his reliability issues and at the end of the day most championships are won with dominant cars.

If luck had played into the hands of hamilton, he might have won this years championship. Luck dictated that for nearly half a season Michael Schumacher lost enough points to put him leading the championship.


You can't blame luck, fairy cakes happens.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 9:16 pm 
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mds wrote:
lunatic wrote:
And Webber never did as he was told?


Only when he really, really has to. You aren't going to argue that Massa is far more of an obedient driver than Webber, right?
I mean, Massa gets grid penalties just for the sake of moving Alonso one place up, and is never ever allowed to stay in front of Alonso. Webber IS allowed to stay in front of Vettel - just not in the closing stages of the season when he's out of contention for the WDC.

Not that I'm saying that Ferrari shouldn't do it - in fact, I think they're playing the team game far better. Massa was awesome today in playing wingman and I have huge respect for him today.

Webber has moved aside for Vettel tonnes of times this season. The incident you are talking about was at the first corner where he had several cars trying to pass him and was forced to take a particular which incidentally hampered Vettel. It was not any kind of overtaking attempt.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 9:18 pm 
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Tessio wrote:
mds wrote:
lunatic wrote:
And Webber never did as he was told?


Only when he really, really has to. You aren't going to argue that Massa is far more of an obedient driver than Webber, right?
I mean, Massa gets grid penalties just for the sake of moving Alonso one place up, and is never ever allowed to stay in front of Alonso. Webber IS allowed to stay in front of Vettel - just not in the closing stages of the season when he's out of contention for the WDC.

Not that I'm saying that Ferrari shouldn't do it - in fact, I think they're playing the team game far better. Massa was awesome today in playing wingman and I have huge respect for him today.

Webber has moved aside for Vettel tonnes of times this season. The incident you are talking about was at the first corner where he had several cars trying to pass him and was forced to take a particular which incidentally hampered Vettel. It was not any kind of overtaking attempt.



Most of this year seb has been so far in front Mark has not needed to. Massa taking a fake gearbox penalty and Ferrari happily announcing it was the best thing to do [didnt even deny it]

I think your sadness at ferrari winning **** all again this year is blinding your judgement, although I am a Arsenal fan so feel your pain :)

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 9:21 pm 
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Tessio wrote:
Webber has moved aside for Vettel tonnes of times this season.


No.

Stop grasping at straws here man, really. Massa has to move over for Alonso anytime, anywhere. Webber is allowed to stay in front if he still has a shot at the title. We've seen this e.g. in China.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 9:30 pm 
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Tessio wrote:
Webber has moved aside for Vettel tonnes of times this season.


le comedy gold

Implying Webber didn't pass Vettel on track in China.
Implying Webber didn't take points away from Vettel at Silverstone.
Implying Webber moved over for Vettel in Belgium.
Implying Webber moved over in Korea.
Implying Webber didn't try to pass Vettel on the restart tonight.

You = Extreme butthurt.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 9:41 pm 
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8O :idea: I just figured out what Red Bull and Vettel's secret of success is. Its that mysterious "mail-slot" you see....... Its a Luck-Sucker!!!!!!
But seriously well done guys and congrats we'll try and get you next year.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:12 pm 
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chinki wrote:
You will find that Alonso has been the luckiest this season by a country mile. Not only has he had the reliability and leaders make way for him one way or the other, he is the only chap in the entire grid to actually have a lap dog for a teammate. His luck probably surpasses that of 23 other drivers on the grid put together.


Vettel has not 1 but 3 lapdogs. Webber, Vergne, Ricciardo. They let him pass easily while defending hard their position against the other drivers


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:16 pm 
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nixxxon wrote:
chinki wrote:
You will find that Alonso has been the luckiest this season by a country mile. Not only has he had the reliability and leaders make way for him one way or the other, he is the only chap in the entire grid to actually have a lap dog for a teammate. His luck probably surpasses that of 23 other drivers on the grid put together.


Vettel has not 1 but 3 lapdogs. Webber, Vergne, Ricciardo. They let him pass easily while defending hard their position against the other drivers



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:01 am 
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^^

Hehe, nail, head etc :D

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:33 am 
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Tessio wrote:
I can't believe the incredible luck this guy has had. His championship should have been over in Abu Dhabi after starting in the pit lane but miraculous timing of safety cars and people letting him through get him well into the points.

Then comes Brazil, 2nd corner. He causes an accident, despite various bumps to his car it works fine and even lets him set fastest lap. On top of this a good 10-15 all miracously manage to avoid his car parked in the middle of the track. Thirdly it doesn't even get looked into but Hulkenberg more or less does the same thing and instant drive through.

Then that pass on Kobayashi which some are saying was under yellow flags and some are saying it was orange.

Alonso deserved this champion, if it weren't for that idiot French driver whose name I shall not mention Alonso would have been world champion today.

Welcome to F1 young blood. In time you will understand, for now try not to blow a gasket.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:40 am 
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Quark wrote:
RaisinChips wrote:
Fishy wrote:
Vettel did it without the help of Webber as he was even fighting Vettel for positions. Alonso needs the help of other drivers like Massa


Then what was that radio message "Thank you Mark" after he had let Vettel by?


That is nothing but lies. Vettel did not have radio, he was not even able to tell the team that he is coming in for inters, let alone thank Mark Weber during such a tense period. If anything, Weber should be scolded for squeezing Vettel on the start and compromising his start, also for going wheel to wheel with Vettel while he was already fighting Kobayashi. Red Bull really need to reevaluate Weber's commitment to their interests.


Webber did move over for Vettel today. I think it was after turn 9. His engineer said thank you Mark, not Vettel. I don't think it was a team order though really. Just Mark realizing Seb was behind him because they had just passed a backmarker iirc.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:41 am 
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F12012 wrote:
nixxxon wrote:
chinki wrote:
You will find that Alonso has been the luckiest this season by a country mile. Not only has he had the reliability and leaders make way for him one way or the other, he is the only chap in the entire grid to actually have a lap dog for a teammate. His luck probably surpasses that of 23 other drivers on the grid put together.


Vettel has not 1 but 3 lapdogs. Webber, Vergne, Ricciardo. They let him pass easily while defending hard their position against the other drivers



Image

Thats a bit of a silly reply since what nixxxon said is factually correct.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:28 am 
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hmm interesitng how the other title contender got lucky inheriting podiums and wins this year, and lucky to have a bulletproof car, (wish kimi and massa would have had this car in 2007 and 2008 although kimi managed to take the championship) but oh wait Vettel have the "misfotunes" an is called lucky, Alonso has "lucky" and is called "the greatest drive of all time" ...


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:58 am 
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Luck tends to even out over the course of a season..

Alonso had Grosjean take him out in Spa, but Vettel had two alternator failures, one of which was when he was leading the race and the fuel issue at Abu Dhabi. I think that Alonso was at least partially responsible for the incident with Raikkonen at Suzuka and at best that evens out with Vettel's puncture from Karthikeyan at Malaysia. Meanwhile in this race Vettel had no ability to communicate with his team via the radio in circumstances where that would have been about as crucial as I have ever seen.

On the other side of the coin, Alonso inherited a win from Vettel at Valencia while Vettel inherited one from Hamilton in Singapore. Alonso has tended to benefit more from other drivers grid penalties and retirements because he's further back on the grid and in the race when these happen whereas when Vettel's on pole or leading it doesn't change anything for him. In this race it was Alonso that was more benefited by the Safety Car and by the Hamilton/Hulkenberg incident because Hulkenberg dropped behind him but remained ahead of Vettel.

That's by no means an exhaustive list, of course, but I think to suggest that Vettel is lucky or even luckier is not an accurate reflection of the season at all.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:10 am 
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Alonso calls the Brasil race another "Sunday Miracle".

The miracle being he asks for safety car and immediately gets it, the leaders' 40+ seconds lead evaporates! Hulk and Lewis collides and Lewis is out; Hulk gets drive thru. Massa lets Alonso by ....

The miracle last week was Webber's DNF.

The miracle before that RBR short fuels Vettel and sends him to back of the field. Lewis's car break down while he was leading...

In India Webber gets KERS issue and drops behind Alonso....

In Singapore Lewis DNFs from lead....
...

Yep, Vettel is the luckiest son of a gun overcoming those miracles.


Last edited by PacificBeach on Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:22 am 
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Quite right, I have never seen a driver inherit so many place and podiums.

3 places inherited today to finish (Massa, Hamilton, Hulk) to finish -2nd.
1 place - USA - Webber issue promoted him 1 place to - 3rd
2 places - Abu D - Vettel grid penalty and Hamilton DNF - 2nd
1 place - Singapore - Hamilton DNF - 3rd
1 place - Italy - Button DNF - 3rd
1 place - Europe Vettel DNF - 1st

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:24 am 
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He's the smartest driver, surrounded himself by a great team and fully deserves everything he has achieved. He has probably been the lowest paid triple wdc in the history of the sport!

Alonso - Got cosy with a cheat like Flavio, was party to stolen IP from a rival team, thinks he's gods gift and that his team-mates are just there to serve him.

Hamilton - Seems to be in it for the money, what kind of F1 driver would seriously sign with the management he's chosen? the guy isn't a pop star. Going to Merc for what is it, 100mil over 3 years? He'll be the highest paid midfield runner, thats for sure! ..... but well, he'll be allowed a personal sponsor on his helmet!!

You reap what you sow.


Last edited by lab105 on Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:32 am 
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Tessio wrote:
I can't believe the incredible luck this guy has had. His championship should have been over in Abu Dhabi after starting in the pit lane but miraculous timing of safety cars and people letting him through get him well into the points.

Then comes Brazil, 2nd corner. He causes an accident, despite various bumps to his car it works fine and even lets him set fastest lap. On top of this a good 10-15 all miracously manage to avoid his car parked in the middle of the track. Thirdly it doesn't even get looked into but Hulkenberg more or less does the same thing and instant drive through.

Then that pass on Kobayashi which some are saying was under yellow flags and some are saying it was orange.

Alonso deserved this champion, if it weren't for that idiot French driver whose name I shall not mention Alonso would have been world champion today.



stop your crying. Alonso was not lucky to have Hamilton and Hulk crash, and to have Massa bail him out about 5 times over the past month? Vettel can't even get his own teammate to stop racing him


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:07 am 
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Tessio wrote:
I can't believe the incredible luck this guy has had. His championship should have been over in Abu Dhabi after starting in the pit lane but miraculous timing of safety cars and people letting him through get him well into the points.

Then comes Brazil, 2nd corner. He causes an accident, despite various bumps to his car it works fine and even lets him set fastest lap. On top of this a good 10-15 all miracously manage to avoid his car parked in the middle of the track. Thirdly it doesn't even get looked into but Hulkenberg more or less does the same thing and instant drive through.

Then that pass on Kobayashi which some are saying was under yellow flags and some are saying it was orange.

Alonso deserved this champion, if it weren't for that idiot French driver whose name I shall not mention Alonso would have been world champion today.


God likes Vettel more than Alonso.

And if you don't believe in deities, Alonso just wasn't able to overtake Button to win the Championship.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:10 am 
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Ohhh dear some Ferrari fans are really letting themselves down on here.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:33 am 
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Half of everything is luck.

While Vettel was lucky in Abu Dhabi and Brazil, he also drove well in both races. With no "good luck" he'd probably have finished not that far behind where he did (more so Abu Dhabi).


Alonso had some luck this year too. Maldonado had some luck (I think if Hamilton had been on pole, Maldonado wouldn't have won). Vettel also had a pretty much guarenteed win drop out his hands in Valencia but gained a win when he would probably have been second in Singapore.


While Vettel was lucky to come out of Abu Dhabi with a podium, and lucky to make it to the line in Brazil at all (I thought that car was done for sure), part fo eevrything in F1 is luck. A backmarker in the way, someone sliding into you, alternators, gearboxes, engine failures, punctures... All of these can afflict you without being your fault per se.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:35 am 
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mac_d wrote:
Half of everything is luck.

And the other half, fate?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:39 am 
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Well, this is comming from a Ferrari fan:

Congrats to Vettel on winning this years WDC.

On toppic - Luck has played a vital role for both Alonso and Vettel, but they were BOTH there and made their best to take the results.
The only thing that makes me a bit bitter is the way that the sister team and Schumaher (last race) laid the red carpet for Vettel in the last couple of races.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:43 am 
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Yes, Vettel is one of the luckiest F1 drivers, but also has sh*t loads of talent to go with it. He was lucky that his car wasn't retired after the first corner shunt (I still blame him for it) and was lucky to have other cars (Toro Rosso/Schu) give him an easy pass. He was lucky at Abu Dhabi, ridiculously lucky... but he also raced like a beast to make the most of the luck, endured bad luck in Valencia and Monza, drove some epic drives like at Spa (best race of his career for me) and earned the Championship. Some people do get the luck, its up to the driver to make the most of it.

I may cry, that really hurt.

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