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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 8:51 pm 
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I've replayed the footage of both accidents several times over and I'm not still not seeing why the creator of one the accidents received a penalty and the other one didn't. In both incidences their car hit someone else forcing them to retire while they continued on. In the case of Hulkenberg when he hit Hamilton he was already out of control, in Vettel's case though he was fully in control and made the decision to cut across Senna thereby causing an accident.

Only Hulkenberg received a penalty even though he was much less in control of his car when the accident occurred and therefore less liking to have caused an "avoidable accident".

Your thoughts?


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 8:53 pm 
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Charlie has come out and said normal strict rules do not apply to the first few corners due to so much going on and cars running 3 abreast into corner entry. Impossible to know where everybody is.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 8:55 pm 
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As others have previously said, stewards were inconsistent.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 8:55 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Charlie has come out and said normal strict rules do not apply to the first few corners due to so much going on and cars running 3 abreast into corner entry. Impossible to know where everybody is.

Well then what about Grosjean at Spa? He was definitely told off for that incident :lol:


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 8:55 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Charlie has come out and said normal strict rules do not apply to the first few corners due to so much going on and cars running 3 abreast into corner entry. Impossible to know where everybody is.

The only issue is that Vettel was running in the middle of the track. At the beginning of a race if you start a corner on one line you have to keep it because of the unknown of who is running there.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 8:58 pm 
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Kind of 50/50 Vettel moved in and squeezed Senna which he shouldn't have done but he was just taking the racing line. Senna drove into a wedge that was only ever going to close. I think had it been later in the race a penalty would have been given but I think at the start both Senna and Vettel made understandable errors and a penalty for either would be harsh. There is such a thing as a racing incident.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 9:01 pm 
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I didn't understand why Hulkenberg got a penalty for the Hamilton collision, as he didn't outbrake himself, just lost the back on the wet tarmac. Clumsy, but not malicious, and if he'd been sliding through T1 backwards having lost grip earlier, and T-Boned Hamilton, he wouldn't have got a penalty.

The Vettel incident, Bruno is going for a gap he knows is going to disappear, which presented itself by Raikkonen going down the outside and off the road. I'm going to assume Vettel is watching to see what Kimi is doing with coming back on rather than the inside as there isn't a car alongside him. It says a lot that on the replay you couldn't even see Senna's car from the T-Cam. Given the nature of that corner, you need to be a lot further alongside to make it stick.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 9:03 pm 
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During the race I only saw replays from Vettel´s on-board and its impossible to judge the incident from that angle.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 9:04 pm 
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Vettel rarely finds himself in the pack going into corners so he probably didnt know what to do in that situation and maybe panicked a bit. But in my opinion his move merited a penalty. You cant swing your car into a corner from that far out and expect to miss everyone. At least in the end he still won. Red bull must make their cars from reinforced granite whilst mclaren make theirs out off tin foil!! If a fly landed on the suspension of that car and farted it would collapse.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 9:04 pm 
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huggybear wrote:
I didn't understand why Hulkenberg got a penalty for the Hamilton collision, as he didn't outbrake himself, just lost the back on the wet tarmac. Clumsy, but not malicious, and if he'd been sliding through T1 backwards having lost grip earlier, and T-Boned Hamilton, he wouldn't have got a penalty.

The Vettel incident, Bruno is going for a gap he knows is going to disappear, which presented itself by Raikkonen going down the outside and off the road. I'm going to assume Vettel is watching to see what Kimi is doing with coming back on rather than the inside as there isn't a car alongside him. It says a lot that on the replay you couldn't even see Senna's car from the T-Cam. Given the nature of that corner, you need to be a lot further alongside to make it stick.

The thing is though at the time of the accident Vettel was fully in control of his. Hulkenberg at the time was sliding into oblivion. Vettel made a conscious decision to cut off Senna and got away with it.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 9:06 pm 
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come on, theres no way Vettel's was a penalty, especially since it had done enough damage to his race as it was, it was also at the start of the race when it is really difficult to know where everyone is


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 9:07 pm 
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FormulaFun wrote:
come on, theres no way Vettel's was a penalty, especially since it had done enough damage to his race as it was, it was also at the start of the race when it is really difficult to know where everyone is

Hulkenberg also lost out from his accident. He shouldn't be penalized either then?


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 9:13 pm 
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Perhaps Hamilton should have received one as a farewell present.

But neither driver should have been penalised, but the fact is if the Hulk hadn't been just imagine how much irate Hamilton fans would have lit up the Internet.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 9:13 pm 
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/19941046

So its okay if your not in a top team. Again inconsistent rules.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 9:15 pm 
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Vettel and Senna was 50-50. I dont think Senna had enough part of his car on the side for Vettel to see that he was being overtaked, and as someone else mention Raikkonen went off which only served as a distraction. Also on the onboard view of Vettel Senna was nowhere to be seen which suggests Vettel did not see him at all. Senna shouldnt have tried to overtake so far back with the gap closing as Vettel was already committed to the corner, of course Vettel shouldn't have turned into the unknown therefore I call this incident 50-50. Hulkenberg didnt deserve his penalty either so the stewards dropped the ball on that one.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:38 pm 
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theman28 wrote:
Vettel and Senna was 50-50. I dont think Senna had enough part of his car on the side for Vettel to see that he was being overtaked, and as someone else mention Raikkonen went off which only served as a distraction. Also on the onboard view of Vettel Senna was nowhere to be seen which suggests Vettel did not see him at all. Senna shouldnt have tried to overtake so far back with the gap closing as Vettel was already committed to the corner, of course Vettel shouldn't have turned into the unknown therefore I call this incident 50-50. Hulkenberg didnt deserve his penalty either so the stewards dropped the ball on that one.


Apparently Vettel said on RTL TV right after the race "Maybe I should go to the cemetery and tell Ayrton what his little nephew did today"

If that's true, and by no means I'm sure he did, but if he said that, then I find that very sad he said that...

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Last edited by XploZiV on Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:40 pm 
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XploZiV wrote:

Apparently Vettel said on RTL TV right after the race "Maybe I should go to the cemetary and tell Ayrton what his little nephew did today"

If that's true, and by no means I'm sure he did, but if he said that, then I find that very sad he said that...


Quite classless from Vettel if true.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:49 pm 
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What else was Vettel going to do? to me it seemed pretty predictable and Senna should have known he was going to turn in, it looked like a desperate pass, not a smart pass. Hell, my first impression was that Vettel was already committed but Senna went in and dive bombed, i'd have to see the replay again though.

The Hulk on the other hand deserved that penalty, that was a very bad error on his part.


Last edited by MikeV1987 on Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:04 pm 
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XploZiV wrote:
theman28 wrote:
Vettel and Senna was 50-50. I dont think Senna had enough part of his car on the side for Vettel to see that he was being overtaked, and as someone else mention Raikkonen went off which only served as a distraction. Also on the onboard view of Vettel Senna was nowhere to be seen which suggests Vettel did not see him at all. Senna shouldnt have tried to overtake so far back with the gap closing as Vettel was already committed to the corner, of course Vettel shouldn't have turned into the unknown therefore I call this incident 50-50. Hulkenberg didnt deserve his penalty either so the stewards dropped the ball on that one.


Apparently Vettel said on RTL TV right after the race "Maybe I should go to the cemetery and tell Ayrton what his little nephew did today"

If that's true, and by no means I'm sure he did, but if he said that, then I find that very sad he said that...


What the?? Surely not? Does anyone have footage?


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:13 pm 
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scuderia_stevie wrote:
Perhaps Hamilton should have received one as a farewell present.

But neither driver should have been penalised, but the fact is if the Hulk hadn't been just imagine how much irate Hamilton fans would have lit up the Internet.
Funny that, i'm a Hamilton fan and i don't think it was a worth penalty,but don't let that stop you from having a dig at another drivers fans x(

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:37 am 
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Vettel's: First lap incident. (Usually not punished)
Hulkenberg's: Lost the back end on a slippery track (shouldn't be punished)
Grosjean's: Repeat offender (last straw kind of thing?)

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:41 am 
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Tessio wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
come on, theres no way Vettel's was a penalty, especially since it had done enough damage to his race as it was, it was also at the start of the race when it is really difficult to know where everyone is

Hulkenberg also lost out from his accident. He shouldn't be penalized either then?

you should write an angry letter to the FIA explaining your anger. lol. I love this. So much bile and hatred coming out on here, its hilarious!!!

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:57 am 
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If you want a comparison for the Hulk incident, remember the collision between Maldonado and Perez at Silverstone. Pretty much the same thing happened and Pastor was penalised for it if I remember correctly.

I think the penalty was probably fair. Obviously not deliberate but Hulk's mistake did take Hamilton out of the race. That's always been penalised in the past.

I don't think Vettel should have a penalty for the lap one incident but was his yellow flag overtake on Kobayashi ever looked into?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:01 am 
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Tessio wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
come on, theres no way Vettel's was a penalty, especially since it had done enough damage to his race as it was, it was also at the start of the race when it is really difficult to know where everyone is

Hulkenberg also lost out from his accident. He shouldn't be penalized either then?


not he didn't he was second before the crash and second after the crash, punting the leader out of the race because he lost control of his car and over estimated his ability, like all of the current new drivers do, because they are cocky & haven't got the talent to match their ego, he deserved a penalty


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:02 am 
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Banana Man wrote:
If you want a comparison for the Hulk incident, remember the collision between Maldonado and Perez at Silverstone. Pretty much the same thing happened and Pastor was penalised for it if I remember correctly.

I think the penalty was probably fair. Obviously not deliberate but Hulk's mistake did take Hamilton out of the race. That's always been penalised in the past.

I don't think Vettel should have a penalty for the lap one incident but was his yellow flag overtake on Kobayashi ever looked into?


also maldonado on di resta in hungary and Maldonado got punished for it


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:07 am 
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To me it looked like Senna went for a gap that wasn't there. It was just a racing incident, really. These things happen all the time.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:25 am 
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Apparently Vettel said on RTL TV right after the race "Maybe I should go to the cemetery and tell Ayrton what his little nephew did today"

If that's true, and by no means I'm sure he did, but if he said that, then I find that very sad he said that...[/quote]

What a load of crap. Why do people make up stuff like this? You are worse for having even thought it. Seriously, I don't care what driver your support don't say crap like this. If you are just passing whatever fud someone else started then ignore this, it applies to them.

EDIT: Never mind I'll enjoy some crow. Apparently he says it at around 1:30 http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=GAezVM-zzdQ#! I can't understand it though so if someone would translate.


Last edited by JerCotter7 on Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:29 am 
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Banana Man wrote:
If you want a comparison for the Hulk incident, remember the collision between Maldonado and Perez at Silverstone. Pretty much the same thing happened and Pastor was penalised for it if I remember correctly.

I think the penalty was probably fair. Obviously not deliberate but Hulk's mistake did take Hamilton out of the race. That's always been penalised in the past.

I don't think Vettel should have a penalty for the lap one incident but was his yellow flag overtake on Kobayashi ever looked into?


They weren't waved yellows-they were red and yellow, indicating the track was slippery.
http://www.crash.net/f1/news/186443/1/s ... legal.html

As for Vettel/Senna, I don't think you could call it anything other than a racing incident, bolstered by the fact it was the first lap, you have cold tires, cars weaving and challenging each other for position. I replayed this several times, and there is simply no way Vettel could have seen Senna. Senna was rapidly moving in a place where nobody was, and everyone was braking---especially Vettel as he had cars in front of him. He did take a wide entry into the corner, but started it a split second before Senna streaked in. As I see it, Senna really gambled going for that spot considering the other cars who were level and in front of him, especially considering he entered it a bit faster because he was trying to overtake---i.e. racing---which is why I call it a racing incident. To assess a penalty to Vettel, in my mind you would have had to know that he saw Senna there, and tried to disadvantage him by taking that line; which, obviously, he didn't do because he never saw him. It's the first lap of the race, and he was just trying to keep his cool and develop a pace and rhythm respective to where he was. It was this very conservative driving which led to him taking the wide line, watching those in front of him and minding his position---so I see it far less as him chopping Senna than him just trying to survive the opening lap amidst many cars between 5th-8th place.

Vettel was very fortunate his car was able to continue; if it didn't, he would have had to accept the situation and Alonso would be the champion. And for the record, I'm neither a supporter of Alonso or Vettel. Opening lap skirmishes must be looked at a bit differently from later on in the race where drivers have more awareness, in my eyes. This doesn't give them free reign to run people into the walls, etc.---it just stands to reason it needs a bit of lenience.

To me, anyway.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:44 am 
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I would rate both as just racing incidents n hulk didn't deserve a penalty, the car just slid... vettel's also wasn't a penalty deserving one.. I don't think vettel will just T-bone into others when chmpionship is at stake

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:57 am 
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Vettel should've lost the WDC today, he caused the incident, it should've been terminal. Yet again a case of luck, in a very lucky year.

Apart from the streak of 4 wins he has had quite an average year. I do have to tip my hat to his Quali efforts, I think they were the deciding factor.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 4:16 am 
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XploZiV wrote:
Apparently Vettel said on RTL TV right after the race "Maybe I should go to the cemetery and tell Ayrton what his little nephew did today"

If that's true, and by no means I'm sure he did, but if he said that, then I find that very sad he said that...


That is truly disgusting,I've watched the footage and he laughs as he says it, just completely disrespectful especially when he was in the wrong for the incident. I was never a fan but as the season has gone on I've began to dislike him and his attitude and that comment was the final straw for me.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 7:54 am 
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Dexter Morgan wrote:
XploZiV wrote:
Apparently Vettel said on RTL TV right after the race "Maybe I should go to the cemetery and tell Ayrton what his little nephew did today"

If that's true, and by no means I'm sure he did, but if he said that, then I find that very sad he said that...


That is truly disgusting,I've watched the footage and he laughs as he says it, just completely disrespectful especially when he was in the wrong for the incident. I was never a fan but as the season has gone on I've began to dislike him and his attitude and that comment was the final straw for me.


I don't actually dislike any driver. But to me, that's just a really classless thing to say... I just feel bitter he did.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:33 am 
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this guy has issues. In his own head he\s still convinced Senna is totally at fault. I just wish next year's Redbull is a dog of a car, he deserves a wake up call.

Regarding what CHarlie said about the first corner incidents, i find it hard to believe. There were penalties. And why should Grosjean constantly look in 10 directions, and vettel turn in as he wants. Oh, and someone said that he shouldn't be punished because he also wrecked his race. Well, in a road car it doesn't matter what happens to me, I get punished if it's my fault.

On the Sky virtualization it was clear that it was exactly like another car coming into your lane. I just wish Kobayashi wouldn't have been so generous with Vettel when got overtaken.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:41 am 
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paul_gmb wrote:
this guy has issues. In his own head he\s still convinced Senna is totally at fault.


How can you blame him if neutral spectators aren't even agreeing about it?

AD, today:
Quote:
Sat on the Naughty Step
Bruno Senna, Williams, DNF
Bruno Senna was more contrite about his first lap accident in the BBC forum than he was during the race. Coming down the straight to Lake Descent he was behind Raikkonen, and Di Resta with Vettel two places in front. He made a move on Raikkonen, tried to get DiResta and thumped into Vettel. It wasn't an overtaking move it was a total misjudgement. As Bruno confessed afterwards: "When I saw it was Sebastian I thought - uhoh, that's a bad one."


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:49 am 
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mds wrote:
paul_gmb wrote:
this guy has issues. In his own head he\s still convinced Senna is totally at fault.


How can you blame him if neutral spectators aren't even agreeing about it?

AD, today:
Quote:
Sat on the Naughty Step
Bruno Senna, Williams, DNF
Bruno Senna was more contrite about his first lap accident in the BBC forum than he was during the race. Coming down the straight to Lake Descent he was behind Raikkonen, and Di Resta with Vettel two places in front. He made a move on Raikkonen, tried to get DiResta and thumped into Vettel. It wasn't an overtaking move it was a total misjudgement. As Bruno confessed afterwards: "When I saw it was Sebastian I thought - uhoh, that's a bad one."


:)))))))) Of course Senna ran into Vettel. And vettel one the race. He wasn't in 6, he was just one lap in front of everyone. I love it how planetf1 editors consider all of us idiots.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:57 am 
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Vettel's Mum wrote:
Coming down the straight to Lake Descent he was behind Raikkonen, and Di Resta with Vettel two places in front. He made a move on Raikkonen, tried to get DiResta and thumped into Vettel. It wasn't an overtaking move it was a total misjudgement.
Vettel, in the full knowledge that there were cars everywhere, turned across Senna, had he maintained his line there would not have been a collision. Vettel was relying on other drivers to avoid him, given the championship situation, his ability and car speed it was reckless and stupid.

Later, Vettel did exactly the same thing with Koybayashi, having got alongside he took the normal racing line and forced Kobayashi off track, he did not leave room. Vettel put himself in a position where another collision could have happened entirely unnecessarily.

Not great driving at all...

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:01 am 
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lamo wrote:
Charlie has come out and said normal strict rules do not apply to the first few corners due to so much going on and cars running 3 abreast into corner entry. Impossible to know where everybody is.

This, enough said.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:59 am 
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From what I heard, Hulkenburg changed from 3rd to 2nd gear which may have contributed to the slide as the back wheels locked. This could be classed as driver error? I can see Vettels and Senna's incident as more of a racing incident as Senna went for a gap, Vettel was not fully aware of his surrounds, but i would put more of the blame on Vettel as he didn't need to turn in so much, especially with so many cars around.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:09 am 
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MikeV1987 wrote:
What else was Vettel going to do? to me it seemed pretty predictable and Senna should have known he was going to turn in, it looked like a desperate pass, not a smart pass. Hell, my first impression was that Vettel was already committed but Senna went in and dive bombed, i'd have to see the replay again though.

The Hulk on the other hand deserved that penalty, that was a very bad error on his part.


Just the opposite. This guy was trying to nail down the title by being in the top 7. I would have thought he would tippy-toe around and avoid anything dubious.

My personal feelings are that neither should have been punished. its racing, if you dont have mishaps, you are not trying hard enough.

(doesn't apply to stupidity or deliberate mind)

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:10 am 
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Senna went for an over take on the racing line he was past the rear of vettels car as vettel turned in. Ask yourselves had it been groajean or maldanado instead of vettel, would you still claim vettel was right? No. The only reason vettel wasn't penalised was because it was the first lap and it could decide the title. Grosjean cause the accident at spa and got a ban, senna could clearly come off a lot worse that just a dnf yesterday for doing nothing more than following the racing line trying to gain places, he is blamed by the likes of pf1 just because it was against vettel, and as for him being part of carbon fibre club i don't recall him being at fault for many accidents this year, other than maybe maldanado was it Malaysia and maybe at Valencia.


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