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Ha! Sour grapes much? That's the problem with farreri fans. They want it all their own way. Schumacher let Vettel past because he (rightly so) didn't want to impede him or make a difference to the outcome of the championship. He would have done siimilar for Alonso if he had passed in the same place!
You need to be objective. farreri need to concentrate on innovation not trying to screw the rules by swapping grid positions and complaining about other teams efforts after being unable to make them themselves, what a bunch of crap! Talk about sore losers!!!
By the way, have a look how many points Massa would have IF he had not let Alonso (the gereat ) past and taken a tumble for him at most races this year!
Pathetic!

Schumacher is a good friend of Vettel and was more racing against Kobayashi. The Merc cannot beat the Red Bull, and Merc vs Sauber in the constructors would no doubt be on his mind, though I'm not sure exactly what the points were.

Alonso should think about beating Massa before he trains his sights on Vettel. unless Massa is the greatest !

All in all great drive all year from both these guys but some Alonso fans make it so hard to even say a good thing about the guy.

I will say it anyway - Alonso drove better than anyone over the whole season (including Seb) ....
....but he could have done some more and taken a charge at the last few races where he left something to be desired - may be things would have panned out different !

Just read my thread people the gap Schumacher- Vettel was 9s, Vettel was 1.5-2s faster per lap. Analysis on last stint. In the same time Schumacher war 5-7s faster than Rosberg his teamate and 3-4 laps faster or on par with Alonso.
Schumacher vs Vettel,Rosberg,Alonso lap analysis for haters
http://forum.planet-f1.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5410

Yeah, nice try. Alonso/Ferrari haters try to pump up Massa constantly to try and belittle Alonso's ability and achievements. If Massa had lost the championship by three points you'd be doing exactly the same thing to him.

Smedley to Massa: "Destroy him" He was talking about Hamilton, but he didn''t mean it, no honestly he meant just go past him, Yeah of course he did! How do you know the paper were just remering to an overtaking manouvre which was easy because Vettel had a much faster car? No point in actually impeding him, unless of course you know better. By the way which country are you from?
Pathetic!

Wrong! It will never happen so there's no need for an concern about that,

"Will never happen?" Already has happened. Flaunt the knowledge, son.

F1 is once again a facade.

Vettel was involved in an at fault collision and overtook under yellows. No penalty. He had half the remaining grid gunning for him (the two torro rosso's and webber, not to mention schumacher and raikkonen) again, all perfectly fine. He had a car that has been mountains above the Ferrari, and yet despite all this he wins by 3 points.

The history books will reflect him as champion, but a true champion, he is not.

_________________
Supporting in 2012:
Mark Webber.
Lewis Hamilton.

Read again what I wrote. People are saying he slowed down on purpose to let Vettel catch him and picked up the pace again once Vettel went by. This is what I'm strongly doubting. I don't have a problem with Schumacher letting a title challenger past in the last laps of the last race and I find it sweet coming on the expense of Alonso and Ferrari. I don't think it was Schumacher's reasoning but I wish it was.

That was really hard to read, but I get the feeling you missed the point here. The point the post you quoted made was that usually the English press throws a fit when someone lets his teammate by, remember Massa moving over for Alonso in 2010 and the subsequent moral outrage? In the last race Mark moved over for Vettel and Schumi moved over for someone who wasn't on his team, and... silence. And yet the old lines about FIArrari are still dragged out.

Is breaking the seal on Massa's car for a 5 grid penalty and moving other drivers from other teams to the bad side of the grid so Alonso could go to the good side not "distasteful"?

Ok, bit of misunderstanding there. You wrote slowed to let him past, so I thought you meant he slowed down on the overtaking manoeuvre. Not to catch him up in the first place.

That is "distasteful," but also unrelated to having a second team on the track to work for your benefit. And related to my previous post, I'd like to remind you that not everyone is guided by an anglo-saxon black-and-white sense of morality. I direct you to a recent poll on autosprint.it, in which the majority of respondents didn't see a problem with the gearbox trick:

http://www.auto.it/sondaggi/autosprint/ ... avanzare+A

Of course, you'll probably say that that's because the majority of people who would vote on an Italian site are Ferrari fans, but the results of the other polls, if you'd care to check them, don't bear that out.

Vettel did not overtake under yellows...
The only facade is you with stupid comments all over the threads. Grow up...

Meh it will show him as a consecutive triple world champion beating Alonso fair and square. Seeing haters like you makes it all the sweeter.

Oh and he didn't overtake under yellows

Big difference between when Ferrari did it then when RBR does it this year.

No one cares any more about Massa moving over for Alonso, Why? because its fully legal and they have done it so much no one cares.

Ferrari gave Massa a penalty to move Alonso off the dirty side, this was the newest one although legal - it was frowned upon.

Got nothing to do with Hypocrites, I my self do not believe in team orders which is why I valued Mclaren with lewis/Button - both drivers free to race unless they are 1-2 and coming to final stages of a GP they may decide "Fuel save" but they have said that when both drivers have led a 1-2.

Team orders and what Ferrari has done is about Alonso, not Massa. Alonso has number 1 status and RBR have allowed both their drivers to race to the final race although they sometimes show glimmer of "Fuel save".

I'd recommend you take off that tinfoil hat, matey.

A true champion like Alonso would have fought harder in the last 3 races and he would score 4points more.
Massa was cleary better in the last three races. Alonso seemed to have lost race pace.
He did this in 2010 also not being able to pass Petrov for so many laps.

Now i can see only to drivers to pass Michael Schumacher in achiviements: Vettel and Hamilton. Not to say who is better it's difficult to say.
Alonso in 2-3 years will become a " Button" a little better.

Hamilton would have to win that second WDC first...

I find this laughable really! If there is one group of people worse than the British press, frankly it's the Italian press. ferrari were just a little bit of an embarrassment.
Making comments like the one above just shows you have no idea! You point to an Italian web site as sound logic for changing a gearbox which didn't need changing. My ass!
To be fair though, there are an awful lot of people in Italy who think farreri erm....how to put it....suck basically.

And....I'm sorry, My bad!
When did M Assa beat Alonso in a championship?

Quality post! Well said!!!

Oh god not this again!

What did people expect mark to do. Take seb out. Of course he was going to let vettel through. Bit disappointed with ms attitude towards the whole thing though. He really should be focussing purely on himself and not saying he would help another driver out.

You should expect team mates to help each other when the other is in need. That's part of being in a team. Massa wasn't competitive at the start of the season to put himself in a place where he was fighting for the title. If however he performs better than alonso at the start of the season and then is surpressed to help alsonso then yes that's totally wrong. Ferrari at least owe massa for the support he has given alonso

We have yet to see whether if shoes were on the other foot seb and fernando would help their teammates. I would hope so but think it is less likely.

I'm 100% positive Vettel would. And I really think Fernando would too.

Schumacher assisted Irvine, remember? I don't know why that would be different for Seb or Fernando.

Hmm. For one thing, I was not quoting something an Italian site wrote, I was quoting a poll asking the public- which in this case means Italians and people who can read Italian- their opinion. As you might note, over 50% didn't see a problem with giving Massa a grid penalty. Yeah, Italians clearly think Ferrari sucks. You're all over the place here, man.

Secondly, do you read Italian? If not, then you honestly can't comment on the Italian press- which is definitely of a higher overall quality than the British press. Italy has no equivalent to the Sun or Daily Mail; Britain's highest-selling papers. The best-selling papers in Italy are il Corriere della Sera and La Repubblica, look them up if you want. And FYI, Autosprint is essentially the Italian equivalent to Autosport, it has a great reputation.

Disclaimer: I'm not saying the tabloids represent the entire British press, just attempting to deconstruct a really poor argument here.

OK, what the hell? You're all over the place here. I was referring to the 2008 season, when Massa lost the championship by one point. I'm not at all sure what you're talking about here.

Im all over the place?
I'm not crying in my beer because a better driver won though! Sorry but that's what it seems to amount to.
Corriere, the Agnelli paper? dobbiamo restare un giornale di alta qualità as Umberto used to say! yeah, really!!!
I used to read la gazzetto dello sport so yes i can read Italian and yes i do know what i'm talking about. Exactly what i meant was I would not use as evidence an Italian web site to base a logical argument, irrespective of the content, local journalism or a public poll, polls are open to abuse unless strictly controlled and no i don't think it would be controlled at all really.
Massa beat Alonso or his team mate?
As for 2008, It couldn't have been more difficult for his team mate really could it.
What i actually meant was that Massa would not be in the position to be fighting for the title even if Alonso missed a couple of races. Except by default. If Alonso was out in April for two months ferrari would have to look at a campaign with Massa, no real alternative = default title chaser and No1 driver Massa, at least for a couple of mmonths. Based 2012 he was well behind Alonso until when.......September, i dunno to be honest i'm tired of all of this crap.
Look, he's not very good at all i'm sorry but that's just my opinion of him, i hope he goes out and beats Perez in March of next year but i doubt he will be able to, but he should do!
mostrare il proprio figlio intelligente!
Tired of this one now. ends...

...La Stampa is the paper owned by FIAT, just FYI. You used to read the Cazzatta dello Sport? You poor thing. I'll give you that one, Gazzetta is definitely a birdcage liner, but still not as bad as the Sun/Daily Mail... Anyway, no good can come of this thread. You know what the problem with this forum is? There are so many people on here who are such haters, or possibly just trolls, that it polarizes everyone's opinions, and subsequently it becomes difficult just to enjoy races as they are, because in the back of my mind I'm thinking that such and such driver is going to be hated on or ridiculously praised until the next race. Granted, it started with Martin Brundle's constant spin-doctoring, but this forum is just making it worse...

at the end of the day vettel or alonso dont need anything from us ! both are laughing all the way to the bank while we fight over what ? at the end of the day F1 redeemed itself we had a cracking year of racing !

@ farrer1sta Right: Phew, I would imagine it was quite difficult for you to read because you took my post as a reply to your post, it was a reply to the posts i quoted, in my first post.
paoloandrea123 wrote: I have not seen any discussion about all the help Vettel got from other team members ....................No other teams are protesting team orders but when Ferrari does the same there is a huge brouhaha raised by all, especially Rd Bull, such hypocrites.
My reply:
Ha! Sour grapes much? ........................................ Schumacher let Vettel past because he (rightly so) didn't want to impede him or make a difference to the outcome of the championship. He would have done siimilar for Alonso if he had passed in the same place!.......farreri need to concentrate on innovation not trying to screw the rules by swapping grid positions and complaining .......
By the way, have a look how many points Massa would have IF he had not..................................... this year!
Then Eva09 chipped in with Vettel and Schumacher are good friends, not that that would make a difference, also Sauber/Mercedes close together in the standings which does.
You then quoted three otrher posters
and replied with this:Yeah, nice try. Alonso/Ferrari haters try to pump ........the same thing to him.
I quoted Tessio (o/p) and paoloandrea123: I too find the hypocrisy from the English particularly their press on this matter to be quite pathetic. Today for instance we had a "Well done Mark" message to Webber as he let Vettel breeze past. Yet none of the usual "anger" over it.
Schumacher's actions today reflect badly on him. His last race he should have been fighting, racing not slowing down to a crawl and then pulling over to let his fellow German past.
I disagree entirely and brought up the Smedley comments to Massa about destroying Hamilton last year.
If you look at it by quote it does make sense.
I still think Tessio and paoloandrea are out of order with that statement about the English "I too find the hypocrisy from the English particularly their press on this matter to be quite pathetic. Particularly, not exclusively means that they generally the English are Hypocrites. Nice one!
Anyway fastfwd to the end:
The point the post you quoted made was that usually the English press throws a fit when someone lets his teammate by, remember Massa moving over for Alonso in 2010 and the subsequent moral outrage? In the last race Mark moved over for Vettel and Schumi moved over for someone who wasn't on his team, and... silence. And yet the old lines about FIArrari are still dragged out.
They probably realise, it's now quite legal to move over for one's team mate now the rules have been changed, because someone was cheating i might add but i won't
As correctly stated by Eva09, Schumacher was under orders to keep the Saubers behind him and in line and not fight with someone who he couldn't beat. Vettel was almost 2 seconds a lap quicker and Schumacher did not hold Alonso up, which would be cause for complaint not this!
By the way, i don't hate anyone or anything! I dislike groups of people who attempt to corrupt, who do not innovate and who basically win by any means, it's not good for the sport! I would like to like everyone but i can't see me liking Alonso, he is much worse than Prost with his politics. I have no respect for ferrari because of the way they do things, like the gearbox change, call it what you will i don't think it's good really.
Last post on this, all the best mate ciao....

I dont know how my post amounted to pumping Massa.

If anything it could be called slating Alonso - who got beat when it mattered at the hands of his "un-pumped" and much maligned Sunday Park Driver teammate .

Point is - Alonso definitlely left something on the table in the last 3-4 races and maybe (in a long shot) could have been champ if he had kept the relentless pressure on. He became too cautious of mistakes as title crunch approched.

Vettel also fell victim to pressure as judged by his Q3 in Brazil and start (altho part blamed on Webber)

ooOOOOooh, handbags eh? Dry those eyes snowflake.

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Aprilia RSV Mille.

Ugh, ludicrous. This idea that the driver you dislike only won because he's got a better car.

How come your favorite driver's team did not put in their best effort to beat the team of whoever you don't like? What were they doing with all that R&D money?

To that I agree 100%. Sometimes I avoid forums like this just so that I can enjoy this wonderful sport. Just look at most threads, they are belittling, or attacking, so much negativity, so much anger, jealousy, and spite. I haven't bothered to count, but I'm darn sure that for every thread that attempts to be positive in nature, there are ten that are only negative.

Nah that's not a problem with the forum. That is your own problem if you take everything said on a forum to heart. And don't consider every bit of criticism as hate. Might help you "enjoy" races. But if you can't enjoy races over what is going to be said by others afterwards I think you have bigger issues than trying to enjoy a sport. Or here is another idea, if it affects you that much, stop coming here.

That being said I do agree that it can get tiresome reading about how driver a picked up the car and ran to a podium or how driver b couldn't win a race if he was the only one to finish. But it doesn't affect my enjoyment of a race.

Kimi says hi.

Well, somewhat, maybe. And I say maybe because it wasn't really the first time Webber outqualified Vettel - we've seen this year that they aren't that far apart (I think the record was 11-9 in favor of Vettel). The incident with Senna, I don't think it was pressure, incidents like that happen in every part of the racing field.

But in any case: what followed after T4, up until the finish, was an impressive display of coping very well with immense pressure. The ability to go fast in the rain without one single mistake, even the pass on JEV showed how much he was on it: he saw green, didn't blink, used KERS, passed. No doubt all of that was a display of pure & hard racing, under pressure.

I think Vettel is exemplary for just that: let others play the mind games (he won't), he'll be focussed come race day and he will deliver. Especially if much is at stake (Abu Dhabi 2010 and Brazil 2012 as evident examples).

The person of greatest assistance to Vettel this season has been Massa.

If he could have turned in 2 or 3 performances at the start of the season like the last 3 or 4 races, he would have taken more than enough points away from Seb.

_________________
Should I grow a beard?

I don't know about others, but I believe my views on team orders have been incredibly consistent through the years. I don't like the idea of team orders. However, I have no problem with a driver, or drivers, deciding on their own, for their own reasons, to help a team mate or friend win a championship by moving over and conceding a position towards the end of the season.

But by all means, spout all the hyperbole you want about how 'all' do this and everyone does that and we're all hypocrites; it gives me a good laugh.