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It actually broke my heart as the race ended... I had tears in my eyes... as Massa felt/ relived '08 through Alonso... He genuinely felt bad for Alonso, of that there was no doubt. I feel gutted, as Alonso is clearly who performed head and shoulders above anyone else this season. However, given that he spent best of the year ranting about Newey's work, i, a tifoso to the core wished that he didn't win... I know...

Now, we have Vettel, a 3 time WDC, who battled the best (Alonso) of the lot this year, and came out on top. Yes, the car was better than Ferrari there's no doubt. Equally, there's little doubt that McLaren this year had the fastest car overall. Of course there are some people who will suggest otherwise... but they can't be helped and this thread isn't about that. What i really 'am starting this thread for, is to understand whether perception of forumers on Vettel has changed for the better, if at all. Same old, one of the best... or whatever else. Make your opinion known.

Edit: I think he's one of the best of the lot, and will join elite list of drivers (that is, if you think he hasn't done enough to begin with)... he's not just talented, but is sorted in his head, and knows and works rather hard to achieve what he wants. What really should be telling is that Michael moved over to let him by... mark of respect? I think so... I really don't think that these German drivers would be appreciated till much time has passed after they leave the sport... which is a shame really!

Edit 2: Thanks to suggestion by froze, a glaring mistake in poll options corrected. Now the 4 options hopefully are more clear from not so good, to great and "i've changed my mind about him"...

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My Top 5 drivers of all times:
1) Prost/ Schumacher
3) Fangio
4) Lauda
5) Brabham

if you don't like it, too bad! There's a reason why it says "My Top 5"

People will still bitch and whine no matter what he does, he has nothing more to prove to his critics. He's one of the best, if not, the best driver in the field atm, and I'm loving it.

edit: whoever gives Newey/RBR complete credit for Vettel's achievements are monumental idiots and should probably just give up on F1, since they obviously don't understand the sport. (nicest way I can put it on here )

It doesn't change how I see him. I already had a high opinion of him - one of the 3 best drivers of F1 along with Alonso and Hamilton. There is no question of it silencing Alonso or his fans. Alonso hasn't won the WDC for 6 years now yet he is generally accepted as the best. So its not like his reputation hinges on winning championships. More or less the same for Hamilton. He has got nowhere close to the title this year yet that wouldn't stop people from appreciating what a great job he has done. McLaren have really lost something.

But this is Vettel's hour. Lets congratulate him and he is undoubtedly a deserved champion. And lets not spoil it with cheap shots that will surely produce backlashes. When you use a word like "silence" all you're doing is forcing a bad situation.

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This season has been one of the oddest I've seen in years, particularly at the beginning.

But Seb has shown that he is able to overtake and its not a) just the car or b) only being able to lead from the front.

I take everything Alonso/Ham/Seb say about their competitors with a pinch of salt as obviously they have their own, personal reasons for these pronouncements.

Seb is now a 3X WDC and, whilst he has enjoyed a v good car, he has also proven that he is one of the v best drivers.

For me this season has confirmed Alonso as the best on the grid.

I was less sure how Vettel and Hamilton stacked up against each other though. I would say now though having seen them up against each other, the little mistakes Vettel has made and the fact that Hamilton has finally matured, that Hamilton has the edge over Vettel.

Does it change my opinion of Vettel ? No.

I've always known and acknowledged Vettel as a top driver on the grid . Winning this championship didn't change that for me

Credit to him for getting the job done. Webber couldn't do it in that car so it clearly isn't 100% the car

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Forza Fernando !

One of the best.

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Lewis Hamilton - 2008 World Drivers Champion! Mercedes - 10 Grand Prix Victories.

And anyone who gives Vettel complete credit are momumental idiots and should probably just give up on f1

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And yet, as the OP pointed out, Seb is now a 3X WDC...

This season proved nothing. Alonso drove well - but had a bullet-proof car and benefited from the chaos at the beginning of the season. Lewis drove well, but the team let him down at times. Seb drove well - but didn't have the fastest car for most of the season and had reliability problems.

At the end of the day, the best car/driver combo won.

You're completely correct. F1 is and has always been a team effort. Good drivers are able to overcome small differences in car performance, but not big ones. Put a great driver in a great car and you'll have quite the combination. We saw that at Mclaren and RBR - it was a shame Hamilton's car was as unreliable as it was.
Alonso did just about everything he could have done, but it wasn't enough. Just the last few races were somewhat less impressive - Massa had him beat on a few occasions. Alonso needed the win yesterday and got the elements handed to him: wet race, 2 out of the three in front of him crashed out.


Now, let's just put things into perspective and look at Webbers performances over the years. Webber hasn't managed, in any of the past 4 seasons now, to end up even one place behind Vettel in the WDC. In 2009 he came in fourth to Vettels second, 2010 and 2011 he came third, and this year he came in sixth! Just contemplate, sixth. Five places down. Granted Webber has had more bad luck, but it is telling nonetheless.

Actually, it's remarkable how Alonso is also five places up on Massa and Raikkonen is five places up on Grosjean. It shows how much each of these drivers were on top of their game.

I doubt it will.

I think they are just miffed at being the chosen two, and then another guy came along who becomes a better overall package.


All I'll say for Vettel now - I do expect him to beat Schumi's records.

Vettel did a great job, his most deserved WDC!
He's soundly beat his team mate and two great drivers at the top of their game.

There's no points for second, but I think this season will be remembered as the one where Fernando's shown to be an all time great.
To the point people are starting to hold him to ridiculous standard on one side and claim he's the second coming on the the other.
Vettel and Hamilton will be up there as well, he beat Alonso after all.

All I want is to see them race properly against one another in comparable machinery, not the huge discrepancies from race to race as we saw now, more head to head racing.

No doubt his talent level but when he is winning in a 2nd rate team often or doing a good job.

Then he will get more respect.

Newey Factor.

He's one of the elite the sport has ever had, and has a good car too. Killer combination. I still don't like him, or Button, or Kimi... but I still rate the lot of them, and Vettel is gifted without doubt. Most of the time.

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"You are the universe expressing itself as a Human for a little while..."

Alonso had a better average finishing position, never finished outside of the points and had more podium finishes. They both had 2 DNF's, this season came down to a 4 race stretch were Vettel made hay while the sun shined and got 100/100 points when Red-Bull was the class of the field. There should really be no question that Alonso was the best driver this year, in the last 3 races with a car that was no longer on the pace he went from a qualy average of 5.8 to a race position of 2.4, he did everything possible with on average the 3rd best car and it wasn't enough.

So no this season did not change my opinion of Vettel, he could win 10 WDC's by picking up points with easy cruises to victory and it still wouldn't change my opinion. It's not that he's doing a bad job, it's that there is no new information there... we know he's a much higher class of driver then Webber, we know he can win a race from the front. We don't know how he compares to Hamilton, Raikkonen, Alonso in similar machinery, while his out right speed and consistency clearly make him one of the sports elite drivers, until something changes I don't have the information to place him above Alonso and Lewis.

And that's pretty much exactly how I see it. He is undoubtedly one of the best drivers around but it's very hard to place him in regard to Alonso and Hamilton who I believe to be the top two.

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If...

So what's the same old option supposed to represent if I already thought he was one of the best? Then option 1 and 3 are the same? Maybe you should change it a bit. Otherwise the results might be a bit bonkers.

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"OHO!-magazine number 46/2006: - I read somewhere that I drive with the luck of a drunk."

All you have to do is compare Webber to Vettel to see the difference the driver has made.

He's one of the greats and I also class Alonso and Hamilton in that list. These 3 drivers have given me the most edge of your seat racing I have seen in quite a while.

Bravo you 3,

On a side note, cant wait for the next tier to come through to challenge these 3 goliaths of the sport.

Alonso and Ham have already said it - It is Newey winning the races silly. If forumers out here think they know better, I am happy to leave them alone. Lewis and Alonso are better drivers than Vettel is and still by quite some margin. Lewis and Alonso had a flawless season whereas Vettel's mistakes were far too many - just look at the last race and you will see how ordinary he is when he gets a poor getaway and the only reason he lucked into not getting punished for his clash with Senna was because it was the first lap. Anyway, as I said his list of errors is plenty this season but I will just say that FIA did penalize him 3 times because of how well he was driving

And here I am, thinking Hamilton said yesterday the Mclaren has been the fastest car. How silly of me.

Alonso said it for the obvious reason - to try and destabilise Vettel. Which obviously didn't work.



Eh? It rained yesterday, isn't that when Alonso was supposed to shine? Yet Vettel was faster than Alonso when it rained, only to lose some time on the dry (when aerodynamic problems become apparent) due to a damaged RBR.

But hey, you seem to know it all, so who am I to argue.

I'm not sure it will necessarily silence Alonso and Hamilton, I am sure they would say that if they were in that Red Bull and Vettel was in their car then they would have won rather than Vettel. I think that is true, but there are probably only 2 or 3 drivers on the grid that you could say that of, so combination of top driver and top car wins, which is the way it should be.

And who was responsible for the damage to his car?
And did you not watch the part in the same interview where Lewis said that his car was highly unreliable and had all those problems. Twist it as you like but Lewis and Alonso have been quite public about why Vettel is winning and there is no getting around that.

This season's only really demonstrated the same old. Vettel is good, he won the title but by a mere 3 points from Alonso who was driving a car much worse than Vettel. Hamilton would have been up there if not for the dismal reliability of McLaren. Vettel has more titles than Alonso or Hamilton but as a driver he's still behind both of them.

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shame

He's certainty proved he's one of the best, but he's only got an average Mark Webber to compare with, so people will always question him against the likes of Alonso & Hamilton.

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Driver Instructor & Test Driver

Racing incidents occur. What happened afterwards was brilliant, from T4 onwards to the finish.

I'll give it to you once again, curious for your response: "It rained yesterday, isn't that when Alonso was supposed to shine? Yet Vettel was faster than Alonso when it rained."




Aah, so the unreliability counts for Mclaren, but not for the RBR? When Newey designs a fast car that is less reliable than the Ferrari it is "a rocketship", but when Mclaren develops an even faster car it's still Newey being the genius because the Mclaren is less reliable than the RBR?

Bollocks, that's what.

It won't, but it should. You don't win three by accident. Which is why it puzzles me to see names like Piquet and Brabham so far down in BBC's list, even below people who won nil, like Stirling Moss! Of course, Moss was a great driver, one of the best in his time, but his F1 career wasn't successful, so he can't be higher than guys who won three WDCs, one of whom won a WDC with his own car and team.

If Piquet hadn't gone to Lotus in 1988 he could've been a 4-time WDC, maybe even 5. Mansell won 1992 at the age of 39, and Piquet beat Mansell to the WDC outright in 1987. In 1992 Mansell's teammate was Patrese, whom Piquet trounced in Brabham. Piquet would only have to endure a season with Judd engines in 1988, but it would be certainly better than the mess he got at Lotus in 1989.

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"Mark, Vettel is faster than you"
"Yeah but I'm in front mate"

That of course misses the bit where piquet was paying the mechanics extra for preferential treatment on the sly. Not 100% outright.


As for enduring the "Judd" it was because of Piquet going to Lotus Williams lost them, so if he had have stayed he would have had Honda power in the Williams. .

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Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."

Don't really think it makes much difference that he won the title. For those that don't know F1 it will heighten his reputation but otherwise I don't see it having too much effect.

The claim has always been that he wins mainly thanks to the best car and this season there hasn't been much to change that. The general consensus this year is that Alonso was really the best driver not him. I think for Vettel to really prove himself he's going to need to show brilliance without the best car or perhaps partner Alonso or Hamilton.

Titles are far from everything when rating drivers. F1 is mainly about the car. If you can get the best car you can win even if you are not the best driver. You can be the best driver but if you don't get a good car you will not be that successful.

Vettel getting three title in a row is certainly not an accident but he has had the best car hence why some will still not consider him the best. Which is more than fair enough imo.

Not true, the whole team except for only Sir Frank Williams himself and a few of Piquet's engineers were favouring Mansell, the British driver in the British team. Mansell is hardly an angel in this story, he copied setups from Piquet all the time, since Piquet was the one who tested the new parts (as he should, since his know-how was much higher than Mansell's, who didn't give a damn about development). If Piquet did that, and I highly doubt he did, because the only source I could find on it was, surprise!, a British journalist, it would merely even out the blatant favouritism Mansell had inside the team.

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"Mark, Vettel is faster than you"
"Yeah but I'm in front mate"

Definitely one of the best of the current grid along with the other 5 WDCs IMO

Okay so what I am saying is not true because you can only find it from a British Journo but you claim that Mansell was getting all the favouritism because he was a brit

I have never even heard that one before.

Edit:

And as for sharing set ups. Mansell used to get his engineer to give the team false info on settings in the 91/92 seasons so Patrese wouldn't know his settings.

Can you guess who he learned that trick from?

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Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."

Read this thread, with posts by mostly British people (Evo magazine forum), to find out more about Piquet/Mansell at Williams: http://community.evo.co.uk/forums/thread.cfm?threadID=87953&startRow=0

Piquet did all the development driving for Williams' active suspension, all the development driving for the Honda turbo engine (which Senna and Prost would utilize to great effect in 1988), and beat Mansell in 1987 despite his huge crash at Imola which affected his driving that year. To me, there's no contest that, between Senna/Prost/Piquet/Mansell, Mansell is by far the worst driver.

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"Mark, Vettel is faster than you"
"Yeah but I'm in front mate"

Schumacher has 7 titles and yet the likes of Senna and Clark are considered better than him by many.

People who follow the sport closely usually see more.

Hamilton finished fourth this season but anyone who watched this season knows he deserved more. They will also see that Ferrari was slower than Red Bull and Alonso still lost out by just 3 points.

Alonso was probably the best in 2008 while Hamilton and Massa kept making mistakes.

And then there are the likes of Moss and Gilles Villeneuve who will always be considered better than many world champions.

This is well-known and hardly a reason to criticize Piquet, when Mansell was stealing his setups. I say "stealing" because there was no collaboration between the two after the heated battle in 1986.

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"Mark, Vettel is faster than you"
"Yeah but I'm in front mate"

How did he do all the development work on the active suspension when they didn't get it right until he was well out of the team? Even early '92 it had gremlins.

As for using a forum as source

Sorry but I'll go with the interviews I've read and seen, books etc from over the years.

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Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."

Well I'll also go with the interviews I've seen and whatever resources I have on it in Piquet's favour, which are many, in fact. I hope the "books" you mention are more than Mansell's biography...

I picked that forum because it's the only thing that comes up with a quick search for "Piquet paid Mansell mechanics". I won't bother doing a deeper search, even though there's far more material on how Mansell was being favoured by the team than this rumour that Piquet bribed Williams' mechanics. From what I could tell, the only proof you have is Mansell's words to a journalist who was critical of Piquet. Now Mansell is hardly biased isn't he?

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"Mark, Vettel is faster than you"
"Yeah but I'm in front mate"

Is "same old" option valid for both good and bad?

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The end is near

Well to tell you the truth.

I've never read it

If there is a lot more sources of how Mansell was favoured I have never seen it. Quite the opposite as Head thought he was a PITA.

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Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."