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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:14 pm 
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Wow, Massa has broke his back the past few races to support Alonso who for whatever reason lost pace big time. Massa was brilliant holding drivers up in Brazil and taking pressure off Alonso at every stretch. Webber on the other hand not only had no interest in helping Vettel, he was actually making life tough on him. At the start he cut down on Vettel path for his own good. At the restart he actually went 3 wise with Vettel and if not for going off track Webber could have caused a wreck.

I know many feel Massa did way too much for Alonso taking 5 grid penalties, etc. On the other and I am not saying Webber had to pull of track for Vettel, but to race him wheel to wheel with the title on the line was in stark contrast to what Ferrari were willing to do.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:27 pm 
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Webber moved over for Vettel and left him pass at one stage, his race engineer said thank you Mark. The start is always going to be hectic so I would ignore that. He left Vettel plenty of room anyway. Vettel was just overly cautious. The restart was nothing to worry about either. Webber was on the outside so he was always able to use the run off if something happened. I rather Vettel out of the two but come one.

To be honest I think Mark racing Seb wheel to wheel shows a great deal of respect between the two. He had enough faith in Seb that he would keep it clean and Seb the same for Mark. Seb could easily have left Mark passed and the team would have just had a long pitstop if Mark didn't fall back when Seb needed it. So all in all, This thread is ridiculous.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:33 pm 
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However going into the first turn Vettel & Webber, Webber did not leave enough room for Vettel to slot up the inside, instead Vettel had to back off. Webber could of easily let him slip through, and then the crash after would likely have never happened.

Under normal circumstances sure dont do it but when your team mate is in a massive title fight you do your best to help him and that includes leaving space for him to pass into turn one.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:34 pm 
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JerCotter7 wrote:
Webber moved over for Vettel and left him pass at one stage, his race engineer said thank you Mark. The start is always going to be hectic so I would ignore that. He left Vettel plenty of room anyway. Vettel was just overly cautious. The restart was nothing to worry about either. Webber was on the outside so he was always able to use the run off if something happened. I rather Vettel out of the two but come one.


Agree about the fact Webber moved over (eventually, because not instantly) and somewhat about the restart too. But the start was absolute nonsense: Webber really did squeeze Vettel some, to the point Vettel felt threatened and backed off. Webber could have let Vettel have a comfortable line. By doing so, Vettel would probably have been in front of Webber and been able to stay in front of Hulkenberg.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:41 pm 
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JerCotter7 wrote:
Webber moved over for Vettel and left him pass at one stage, his race engineer said thank you Mark. The start is always going to be hectic so I would ignore that. He left Vettel plenty of room anyway. Vettel was just overly cautious. The restart was nothing to worry about either. Webber was on the outside so he was always able to use the run off if something happened. I rather Vettel out of the two but come one.

To be honest I think Mark racing Seb wheel to wheel shows a great deal of respect between the two. He had enough faith in Seb that he would keep it clean and Seb the same for Mark. Seb could easily have left Mark passed and the team would have just had a long pitstop if Mark didn't fall back when Seb needed it. So all in all, This thread is ridiculous.

I think the thank you was largely because he knew Webber didn't want to move over.

Imagine if Webber had a similar, consistent level of skill to Vettel as Senna did to Prost. We would have close wheel to wheel racing and one or the other would take the Senna approach of 'i'll put my car here and it's up to you whether you back out or we touch'. Alas...

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:43 pm 
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Hakkattack wrote:
Wow, Massa has broke his back the past few races to support Alonso who for whatever reason lost pace big time. Massa was brilliant holding drivers up in Brazil and taking pressure off Alonso at every stretch. Webber on the other hand not only had no interest in helping Vettel, he was actually making life tough on him. At the start he cut down on Vettel path for his own good. At the restart he actually went 3 wise with Vettel and if not for going off track Webber could have caused a wreck.

I know many feel Massa did way too much for Alonso taking 5 grid penalties, etc. On the other and I am not saying Webber had to pull of track for Vettel, but to race him wheel to wheel with the title on the line was in stark contrast to what Ferrari were willing to do.
You beat me to it Hakk I was just typing up the following because I believe what Webber did in the race was way out of order.

Here is my view:-

I do not have any issues with on track team orders however I am glad that Webber did not help Vettel throughout the year as it just makes Vettel's winning the WDC a lot stronger. Having said that though I do think that what Webber tried to do in Brazil was bang out of order. I didn't expect him to just jump out of Vettel's way but he did everything he could to hinder Vettel other than drive straight into him.

1. At the start he completely opens the door for the Ferrari's and covers Vettel giving both Ferrari's extra positions and causing Vettel to loose three, any other team mate would have tried to cover the Ferrari's and if he lost position to his team mate then so be it.
2. At the end of the first lap he goes to the outside of Massa and therefore leaves the door completely open for Alonso who is obviously Vettel's only rival at this stage. Massa simply had to keep Mark on the outside and allow Alonso through which he did and also compromised his own positions by doing so, this was obviously what he was always going to do and I think this was an easy way for Mark to hand the place to Alonso without making it too obvious.
3. He then doesn't try challenge Alonso and even when Alonso goes off on lap 3 Mark makes at best a half hearted attempt at getting past. OK this is the one part that could probably be argued and maybe he did try although it didn't appear that he was trying very hard, I would bet that if it was Vettel who had been in front he would have tried a lot harder.
4. Lap 11 Vettel comes out of the pits behind Webber, Webber should have immediately given him that place but no a lap later Webber is still in front even though Vettel has been on his gearbox for the whole lap, down the DRS straight Webber still stays ahead and then reluctantly after a lap and a half he gives Vettel the place.
5. At the end of the safety car period on lap 29 Kobayashi goes to overtake Vettel on the inside and for some messed up reason Webber tries on the outside which obviously distracts Vettel and then allows Kobayashi through, he may have still gone through but it was so unnecessary for Webber to do what he did there and could have caused major problems which is what I am sure his aim was.

I cannot understand why Red Bull keep this guy. I don't think that they should provide Vettel with a Massa who will jump out of his way but I also think that it is wrong to give him a team mate who has this massive chip on his shoulder about being outclassed so often. Give him a team mate that will race him throughout the year but when it comes down to him no longer having a chance at the title will maybe still not just jump out of the way but will concentrate more on hindering the opposition than his own team mate.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:45 pm 
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I am not saying who is right or wrong with this thread. I am just saying one teammate broke his back to help and the other made life tough. To be honest I am not a fan of the beating Massa has taken. Making room for Alonso in a race, sure. However, taking a 5 grid penalty and its likes was way out there....


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:48 pm 
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gregwil wrote:
Hakkattack wrote:
Wow, Massa has broke his back the past few races to support Alonso who for whatever reason lost pace big time. Massa was brilliant holding drivers up in Brazil and taking pressure off Alonso at every stretch. Webber on the other hand not only had no interest in helping Vettel, he was actually making life tough on him. At the start he cut down on Vettel path for his own good. At the restart he actually went 3 wise with Vettel and if not for going off track Webber could have caused a wreck.

I know many feel Massa did way too much for Alonso taking 5 grid penalties, etc. On the other and I am not saying Webber had to pull of track for Vettel, but to race him wheel to wheel with the title on the line was in stark contrast to what Ferrari were willing to do.
You beat me to it Hakk I was just typing up the following because I believe what Webber did in the race was way out of order.

Here is my view:-

I do not have any issues with on track team orders however I am glad that Webber did not help Vettel throughout the year as it just makes Vettel's winning the WDC a lot stronger. Having said that though I do think that what Webber tried to do in Brazil was bang out of order. I didn't expect him to just jump out of Vettel's way but he did everything he could to hinder Vettel other than drive straight into him.

1. At the start he completely opens the door for the Ferrari's and covers Vettel giving both Ferrari's extra positions and causing Vettel to loose three, any other team mate would have tried to cover the Ferrari's and if he lost position to his team mate then so be it.
2. At the end of the first lap he goes to the outside of Massa and therefore leaves the door completely open for Alonso who is obviously Vettel's only rival at this stage. Massa simply had to keep Mark on the outside and allow Alonso through which he did and also compromised his own positions by doing so, this was obviously what he was always going to do and I think this was an easy way for Mark to hand the place to Alonso without making it too obvious.
3. He then doesn't try challenge Alonso and even when Alonso goes off on lap 3 Mark makes at best a half hearted attempt at getting past. OK this is the one part that could probably be argued and maybe he did try although it didn't appear that he was trying very hard, I would bet that if it was Vettel who had been in front he would have tried a lot harder.
4. Lap 11 Vettel comes out of the pits behind Webber, Webber should have immediately given him that place but no a lap later Webber is still in front even though Vettel has been on his gearbox for the whole lap, down the DRS straight Webber still stays ahead and then reluctantly after a lap and a half he gives Vettel the place.
5. At the end of the safety car period on lap 29 Kobayashi goes to overtake Vettel on the inside and for some messed up reason Webber tries on the outside which obviously distracts Vettel and then allows Kobayashi through, he may have still gone through but it was so unnecessary for Webber to do what he did there and could have caused major problems which is what I am sure his aim was.

I cannot understand why Red Bull keep this guy. I don't think that they should provide Vettel with a Massa who will jump out of his way but I also think that it is wrong to give him a team mate who has this massive chip on his shoulder about being outclassed so often. Give him a team mate that will race him throughout the year but when it comes down to him no longer having a chance at the title will maybe still not just jump out of the way but will concentrate more on hindering the opposition than his own team mate.



very well said


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:49 pm 
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What a joke.

Webber shielded Vettel to protect him at the start and then deliberately ran wide (his words) when he could have passed him later in the race.

On one of the biggest weekends of his career, Vettel was out-qualified by his teammate, botched his start, caused an accident and had to be let past by Toro Rossos, teammates and countrymen.

Alonso is the true champion.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:53 pm 
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Formula1Fan. wrote:
What a joke.

Webber shielded Vettel to protect him at the start and then deliberately ran wide (his words) when he could have passed him later in the race.

On one of the biggest weekends of his career, Vettel was out-qualified by his teammate, botched his start, caused an accident and had to be let past by Toro Rossos, teammates and countrymen.

Alonso is the true champion.


At least you started your post appropriately. You let people know you were about to post a joke.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:55 pm 
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JerCotter7 wrote:
At least you started your post appropriately. You let people know you were about to post a joke.

It's the truth, if you can't handle it, that's on you.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:57 pm 
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Formula1Fan. wrote:
Webber shielded Vettel to protect him at the start


Creative, but no.

Quote:
In one of the biggest weekends of his career, Vettel was out-qualified by his teammate, botched his start, caused an accident and had to be let past by Toro Rossos, teammates and countrymen.

Alonso is the true champion.


Vettel actually had a good start from the bad side of the grid, but Webber really cost him positions.
It rained, Alonso was supposed to shine in the rain, all his fans were hoping for it. In reality, Vettel was faster than Alonso the whole time it rained. After 10 laps Vettel had regained P6, just a few seconds behind Alonso.
The fact he was let past by a few cars doesn't negate the superb driving he has done under immense pressure.

Also: Alonso was also outqualified by his teammate, and was also let by. So I don't see how you dare to come up with those two arguments.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:57 pm 
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mds wrote:
JerCotter7 wrote:
Webber moved over for Vettel and left him pass at one stage, his race engineer said thank you Mark. The start is always going to be hectic so I would ignore that. He left Vettel plenty of room anyway. Vettel was just overly cautious. The restart was nothing to worry about either. Webber was on the outside so he was always able to use the run off if something happened. I rather Vettel out of the two but come one.


Agree about the fact Webber moved over (eventually, because not instantly) and somewhat about the restart too. But the start was absolute nonsense: Webber really did squeeze Vettel some, to the point Vettel felt threatened and backed off. Webber could have let Vettel have a comfortable line. By doing so, Vettel would probably have been in front of Webber and been able to stay in front of Hulkenberg.



Yup just as I said it.

Jomox wrote:
However going into the first turn Vettel & Webber, Webber did not leave enough room for Vettel to slot up the inside, instead Vettel had to back off. Webber could of easily let him slip through, and then the crash after would likely have never happened.

Under normal circumstances sure dont do it but when your team mate is in a massive title fight you do your best to help him and that includes leaving space for him to pass into turn one.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:58 pm 
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He's in the best car but he needs Webbers help too?

Webber wanted to win, Seb was just holding him up. Webber is not hired as Vettel's #2.

Lets have a quick look at the cars behind Seb after his 'amazing' (terrible) drive to 6th
Schumacher
Jean-Eric Vergne
Kobayashi
Raikkenen

thats it. Than you are into the backmarkers (petrov, pic).

Now tell me, how many of those 4 cars do you think are going to help Seb? Think closely. If it came to giving Fernando the title or staying behind what do you think any of those 4 would do?

Seb basically came last of the fast cars in that race. That and Webber, Ricciardo and Vergne let him past. They even threw Ricciardo on full wets at the end to tyre test for Red Bull no doubt throwing his result away.

Sauber attacked Alonso all race, all 3 other Red Bull cars simply moved over. If anything Seb had far too many drivers helping him.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:58 pm 
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Formula1Fan. wrote:
JerCotter7 wrote:
At least you started your post appropriately. You let people know you were about to post a joke.

It's the truth, if you can't handle it, that's on you.


I'm dumbfounded. I genuinely don't know how to respond to your warped sense of reality. At least try to look from a non biased point of view. As you may have seen I don't agree with this thread either. But I didn't go as far as you.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:02 pm 
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infi24r wrote:
...


Whatever you're saying: Vettel was faster than Alonso in the rain, in conditions that were supposed to be Alonso's chance to shine. Vettel has enormous pressure on him after 1L T4, and nothing of that shimmered through despite all of the problems he's had to face in that race.

Meanwhile it was Alonso going off-track when the "only" thing (and I'm putting this between quotes, because it's damn hard anyway) he had to do was that what his fans believed he could: being the fastest in the rain.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:06 pm 
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Formula1Fan. wrote:
JerCotter7 wrote:
At least you started your post appropriately. You let people know you were about to post a joke.

It's the truth, if you can't handle it, that's on you.

Save some of the bitterness, it's a long off-season.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:07 pm 
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Formula1Fan. wrote:
Webber shielded Vettel to protect him at the start......
You simply cannot be serious with that comment, if he were trying to help he would have blocked the Ferrari's not blatantly opened the door for them and blocked his team mates progress.

"Shielded him...." Yeah right :lol:

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:13 pm 
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Just bitter fans that's all.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:13 pm 
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infi24r wrote:
He's in the best car but he needs Webbers help too?

Webber wanted to win, Seb was just holding him up. Webber is not hired as Vettel's #2.

Lets have a quick look at the cars behind Seb after his 'amazing' (terrible) drive to 6th
Schumacher
Jean-Eric Vergne
Kobayashi
Raikkenen

thats it. Than you are into the backmarkers (petrov, pic).

Now tell me, how many of those 4 cars do you think are going to help Seb? Think closely. If it came to giving Fernando the title or staying behind what do you think any of those 4 would do?

Seb basically came last of the fast cars in that race. That and Webber, Ricciardo and Vergne let him past. They even threw Ricciardo on full wets at the end to tyre test for Red Bull no doubt throwing his result away.

Sauber attacked Alonso all race, all 3 other Red Bull cars simply moved over. If anything Seb had far too many drivers helping him.
No he definitely did not need Webbers help, but he didn't need Webber helping the Ferrai's and hindering him in the process.

As for the rest of what you said he was doing what he needed to do, that's all.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:42 pm 
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gregwil wrote:
infi24r wrote:
He's in the best car but he needs Webbers help too?

Webber wanted to win, Seb was just holding him up. Webber is not hired as Vettel's #2.

Lets have a quick look at the cars behind Seb after his 'amazing' (terrible) drive to 6th
Schumacher
Jean-Eric Vergne
Kobayashi
Raikkenen

thats it. Than you are into the backmarkers (petrov, pic).

Now tell me, how many of those 4 cars do you think are going to help Seb? Think closely. If it came to giving Fernando the title or staying behind what do you think any of those 4 would do?

Seb basically came last of the fast cars in that race. That and Webber, Ricciardo and Vergne let him past. They even threw Ricciardo on full wets at the end to tyre test for Red Bull no doubt throwing his result away.

Sauber attacked Alonso all race, all 3 other Red Bull cars simply moved over. If anything Seb had far too many drivers helping him.
No he definitely did not need Webbers help, but he didn't need Webber helping the Ferrai's and hindering him in the process.

As for the rest of what you said he was doing what he needed to do, that's all.


+1

Problem was not that Webbo defended his own position, he is entitled to do it as long as he does it properly - trouble is by defending so hard against Vettel he allowed both Ferraris to pass. Worse I can think of is Mansell back in 1990 defending on team-mate Prost letting both McLarens pass. PLAIN STUPID.

and to all those whom still lament the loss for Alonso, think about one thing: for the last 3-4 races all he did was inherit places and wait for other misfortunes. that was the title that lots were rooting for. hack, without the brain fade move of Hulkenberg he wouldn't even be on the podium. plus, if Alonso had been in RBR with Mark instead of Massa he wouldn't have won anyway as Mark would have taken tons of points from him. (as for the Austin shenanigans, I think Mak would have said something along this line "go f..k yourselves, no way")
everyone gives Vettel crap about the best car and all but nobody questions how much of Alonso's lost title would have been Massa's for playing the perfect slave.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:52 pm 
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Jomox wrote:
However going into the first turn Vettel & Webber, Webber did not leave enough room for Vettel to slot up the inside, instead Vettel had to back off. Webber could of easily let him slip through, and then the crash after would likely have never happened.

Under normal circumstances sure dont do it but when your team mate is in a massive title fight you do your best to help him and that includes leaving space for him to pass into turn one.


I am no fan of Massa like slavish behaviour but I agree that teammates should have certain boundaries and at such a crucial race - it was a no brainer and they should have sat down and decided their first corner moves in advance. What the heck was RBR doing?

Look at Massa - how he outbraked and blocked Webber from entering the same corner and kept him on the outside while Alonso got a jump on both of them. Webber should have done the same at the start - keep going wide and now allow Massa or Alonso to cut back into racing line while allowing Vettel to make a getaway.

Huge failure to get that wrong on RBR s part (if they didnt discuss that beforehand) OR Webber (if he ignored any plans or was just being stupid and jealous kid )

SC restart - I have no complaints about , Vettel was tardy and Webber could and did everything to avoid him even at a slight disadvantage to himself.

Another thing I would mention about Webber is that he is pretty useless as a roadblock for Alonso, Alonso choses his line at will - inside or outside.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:56 pm 
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infi24r wrote:
He's in the best car but he needs Webbers help too?

As pointed out many times to you, he is not in the best car. Mclaren drives are and have been...


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:00 pm 
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This thread is based on the 2 different paths teammates took. One willing to break his back helping and one who actually made things tough on his teammate. I think it should be somewhere in between. However, some of you are making this a Vettel/Alonso thread.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:01 pm 
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PacificBeach wrote:
infi24r wrote:
He's in the best car but he needs Webbers help too?

As pointed out many times to you, he is not in the best car. Mclaren drives are and have been...



:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:07 pm 
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PacificBeach wrote:
infi24r wrote:
He's in the best car but he needs Webbers help too?

As pointed out many times to you, he is not in the best car. Mclaren drives are and have been...


True that. I m seriously impressed with Macca speed - Great pace everywhere , Qualy or race ! Now even in the wet.

Button is worth a punt for 2013 title if this car is the base for next year and still has improvement potential. especially with Ham shooting himself in the foot!


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 1:21 am 
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gregwil wrote:
1. At the start he completely opens the door for the Ferrari's and covers Vettel giving both Ferrari's extra positions and causing Vettel to loose three, any other team mate would have tried to cover the Ferrari's and if he lost position to his team mate then so be it.
2. At the end of the first lap he goes to the outside of Massa and therefore leaves the door completely open for Alonso who is obviously Vettel's only rival at this stage. Massa simply had to keep Mark on the outside and allow Alonso through which he did and also compromised his own positions by doing so, this was obviously what he was always going to do and I think this was an easy way for Mark to hand the place to Alonso without making it too obvious.
3. He then doesn't try challenge Alonso and even when Alonso goes off on lap 3 Mark makes at best a half hearted attempt at getting past. OK this is the one part that could probably be argued and maybe he did try although it didn't appear that he was trying very hard, I would bet that if it was Vettel who had been in front he would have tried a lot harder.
4. Lap 11 Vettel comes out of the pits behind Webber, Webber should have immediately given him that place but no a lap later Webber is still in front even though Vettel has been on his gearbox for the whole lap, down the DRS straight Webber still stays ahead and then reluctantly after a lap and a half he gives Vettel the place.
5. At the end of the safety car period on lap 29 Kobayashi goes to overtake Vettel on the inside and for some messed up reason Webber tries on the outside which obviously distracts Vettel and then allows Kobayashi through, he may have still gone through but it was so unnecessary for Webber to do what he did there and could have caused major problems which is what I am sure his aim was.


... haha, oh dear.

Seems someone has completely lost grip on reality. "He could've let Seb slip by easily" Not without compromising his own position too harshly.
Mark was ahead going into corner 1, pure and simple. He didn't leave the track to stay ahead. Fernando getting past Mark was PURELY the RBR's horrible top speed and gearing compared to Ferrari's straight line rocket.
After the 1st restart Mark ran wide to let Seb through and also let him through later on in the race when they were nose to tail.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 1:37 am 
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darksides wrote:
gregwil wrote:
1. At the start he completely opens the door for the Ferrari's and covers Vettel giving both Ferrari's extra positions and causing Vettel to loose three, any other team mate would have tried to cover the Ferrari's and if he lost position to his team mate then so be it.
2. At the end of the first lap he goes to the outside of Massa and therefore leaves the door completely open for Alonso who is obviously Vettel's only rival at this stage. Massa simply had to keep Mark on the outside and allow Alonso through which he did and also compromised his own positions by doing so, this was obviously what he was always going to do and I think this was an easy way for Mark to hand the place to Alonso without making it too obvious.
3. He then doesn't try challenge Alonso and even when Alonso goes off on lap 3 Mark makes at best a half hearted attempt at getting past. OK this is the one part that could probably be argued and maybe he did try although it didn't appear that he was trying very hard, I would bet that if it was Vettel who had been in front he would have tried a lot harder.
4. Lap 11 Vettel comes out of the pits behind Webber, Webber should have immediately given him that place but no a lap later Webber is still in front even though Vettel has been on his gearbox for the whole lap, down the DRS straight Webber still stays ahead and then reluctantly after a lap and a half he gives Vettel the place.
5. At the end of the safety car period on lap 29 Kobayashi goes to overtake Vettel on the inside and for some messed up reason Webber tries on the outside which obviously distracts Vettel and then allows Kobayashi through, he may have still gone through but it was so unnecessary for Webber to do what he did there and could have caused major problems which is what I am sure his aim was.


... haha, oh dear.

Seems someone has completely lost grip on reality. "He could've let Seb slip by easily" Not without compromising his own position too harshly.
Mark was ahead going into corner 1, pure and simple. He didn't leave the track to stay ahead. Fernando getting past Mark was PURELY the RBR's horrible top speed and gearing compared to Ferrari's straight line rocket.
After the 1st restart Mark ran wide to let Seb through and also let him through later on in the race when they were nose to tail.


What I found very strange was that Webber didn't relinquish his position near the end of the race - if Button's car was deemed under weight, or illegal for any reason, Alonso would have had the championship. Webber could have backed Hulk into Vettel (a tall order though, considering they were about 13 seconds up the road) and Vettel could have taken them both, ensuring that if Alonso took the win/Button was DSQ'd for any reason, post race, they'd have finished on equal points and it would have gone down to number of wins.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 1:57 am 
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Not sure if you guys are serious or not? Do you actually want Vettel to win the title or do you want everyone else to win the title for him? How much is it actually worth if everyone and their grandmother is supposed to jump out of his way? If this had been the first race of the season it would have been a joke. The race was all but fixed. It doesn't matter if it is the first or last race of the season. The points given out are the same, and should be earned in the same way. The WDC is for the driver that races the other 23 cars over 20 races and beats them all in the points. Everything else is bullshit! If you can't do that by yourself you don't deserve the championship.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:04 am 
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nutyo wrote:
Not sure if you guys are serious or not? Do you actually want Vettel to win the title or do you want everyone else to win the title for him? How much is it actually worth if everyone and their grandmother is supposed to jump out of his way? If this had been the first race of the season it would have been a joke. The race was all but fixed. It doesn't matter if it is the first or last race of the season. The points given out are the same, and should be earned in the same way. The WDC is for the driver that races the other 23 cars over 20 races and beats them all in the points. Everything else is bullshit! If you can't do that by yourself you don't deserve the championship.


So by this logic, Schumacher, Hakkinen, Alonso, Raikkonen, Hamilton, Button, and Vettel don't deserve their championships.

You cannot compare the first race of the season to the final - if your team mate is out of contention for the championship, it's generally accepted that he will do everything he can to help you win it.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:16 am 
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Formula1Fan. wrote:
JerCotter7 wrote:
At least you started your post appropriately. You let people know you were about to post a joke.

It's the truth, if you can't handle it, that's on you.


One day you may get over the fact that Fernando Alonso, despite the breaks that went against Vettel, was unable to win the 2012 WDC.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:45 am 
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sgt.hartman wrote:
nutyo wrote:
Not sure if you guys are serious or not? Do you actually want Vettel to win the title or do you want everyone else to win the title for him? How much is it actually worth if everyone and their grandmother is supposed to jump out of his way? If this had been the first race of the season it would have been a joke. The race was all but fixed. It doesn't matter if it is the first or last race of the season. The points given out are the same, and should be earned in the same way. The WDC is for the driver that races the other 23 cars over 20 races and beats them all in the points. Everything else is bullshit! If you can't do that by yourself you don't deserve the championship.


So by this logic, Schumacher, Hakkinen, Alonso, Raikkonen, Hamilton, Button, and Vettel don't deserve their championships.

You cannot compare the first race of the season to the final - if your team mate is out of contention for the championship, it's generally accepted that he will do everything he can to help you win it.

Why can't you compare them? It makes no difference to the final tally whether you manipulate the results at the end of the season or at the start of the season. 1 point at the end of the season is worth just as much as 1 point at the start. If it is wrong to manipulate the results in favour of a driver at the start of a season, it is just as wrong to do it at the end. I am not saying it doesn't happen. I am just shocked that as much as it has already happened, there are people on this forum that are saying the results weren't manipulated enough in favour of their driver. As if giving them an even bigger unfair advantage is somehow going to reflect well on them. It is downright disgusting.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:38 am 
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There's disgusting, and then there's illegal in the eyes of the governing body.

The two don't always mean the same thing.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:23 am 
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Whether you're the best, second best, or third best driver in Formula One, it means nothing in the grand scheme of things if you can't win a particular year's championship without someone having to yield to you. All of you guys need to stop having a right old bitch simply because Mark didn't make it as easy as you all wanted it for Vettel. Mark said it himself, he'll worry about his cockpit, not Seb's. What do you think all the other drivers do that aren't involved in the championship? They just circulate, race after race, and let people whom they want to win, through? Mark was more concerned about his race than anything else. He said earlier this year that he was trying to improve his stats. He has a good run at Brazil. He's not going to jeopardize his race for Vettel.

All the Vettel fans whinge and carry on when Alonso gets help from Massa, but you're all so blind to it when the STRs move over, and if Mark doesn't move over (which, given your Ferrari criticism would imply that you don't want him to move over) you all start sooking like little children because Vettel has a team mate who drives with a little dignity and pride.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:33 am 
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infi24r wrote:
He's in the best car but he needs Webbers help too?


No its not the best, certainly not in Brazil. McLaren was the best and probably Ferrari was better.

infi24r wrote:
Webber wanted to win, Seb was just holding him up. Webber is not hired as Vettel's #2.


Webber had to beat at-least 5 other cars in front of him, something he has not all year - beat 5 cars on track. If he has had any progression on track this year, it is definitely not forward. With the WCC won, he had no other purpose to serve except get out of Seb's way.

infi24r wrote:
Lets have a quick look at the cars behind Seb after his 'amazing' (terrible) drive to 6th
Schumacher
Jean-Eric Vergne
Kobayashi
Raikkenen

thats it. Than you are into the backmarkers (petrov, pic).

Now tell me, how many of those 4 cars do you think are going to help Seb? Think closely. If it came to giving Fernando the title or staying behind what do you think any of those 4 would do?




Vettel would have passed Schumacher even if he put up a defense, just like he passed Kobayashi in the same conditions. Same argument for JEV and "Raikkenen" was a lap down.


infi24r wrote:
Seb basically came last of the fast cars in that race. That and Webber, Ricciardo and Vergne let him past. They even threw Ricciardo on full wets at the end to tyre test for Red Bull no doubt throwing his result away.


Considering an accident on lap 1 demoting him to the back of the grid + damaged body work + delayed pitstop + Torrential conditions + given the fact that he had a lead in the championship and just had to play it safe, p6 is a good result.

infi24r wrote:
Sauber attacked Alonso all race


:uhoh: all race????


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:41 am 
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ManojHS wrote:
Considering an accident on lap 1 demoting him to the back of the grid + damaged body work + delayed pitstop + Torrential conditions + given the fact that he had a lead in the championship and just had to play it safe, p6 is a good result.


Accident on lap 1: Sebastian cut Senna off.
Damaged body work: Again, Sebastian caused that problem for himself.
Torrential conditions: It was the same for everyone, Seb doesn't earn merit points for that.
Had to play it safe: He didn't have to. Vettel was clearly not on it all weekend. He qualified P4. I'm not saying that's bad, but everyone, even people who dislike Vettel, would have expected more. I am 100% certain he would not have been taking it easy in qualifying so that is nothing more than an excuse.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:57 am 
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Misinformed wrote:
ManojHS wrote:
Considering an accident on lap 1 demoting him to the back of the grid + damaged body work + delayed pitstop + Torrential conditions + given the fact that he had a lead in the championship and just had to play it safe, p6 is a good result.


Accident on lap 1: Sebastian cut Senna off.
Damaged body work: Again, Sebastian caused that problem for himself.
Torrential conditions: It was the same for everyone, Seb doesn't earn merit points for that.
Had to play it safe: He didn't have to. Vettel was clearly not on it all weekend. He qualified P4. I'm not saying that's bad, but everyone, even people who dislike Vettel, would have expected more. I am 100% certain he would not have been taking it easy in qualifying so that is nothing more than an excuse.


Not sure what you're trying to say, Misinformed. Vettel caused some problems to himself, but shouldn't have won the WDC because he overcame said setbacks?

Misinformed wrote:
Whether you're the best, second best, or third best driver in Formula One, it means nothing in the grand scheme of things if you can't win a particular year's championship without someone having to yield to you.


What only matters in winning the Championship is one driver scoring more points than everyone else he's competing against.

The how of getting more points than everyone else doesn't always matter. If the powers-that-be deem the how to be controversial enough, then they'll investigate.


Last edited by maninblack on Tue Nov 27, 2012 5:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 5:17 am 
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Formula1Fan. wrote:
What a joke.

Webber shielded Vettel to protect him at the start and then deliberately ran wide (his words) when he could have passed him later in the race.

On one of the biggest weekends of his career, Vettel was out-qualified by his teammate, botched his start, caused an accident and had to be let past by Toro Rossos, teammates and countrymen.

Alonso is the true champion.



By the way Alonso was more off pace Massa then Vettel was to Webber and Alonso was the one who looked slower than massa whole race I mean after everything and holding peoiple up for Alonso, Massa still finished third....!!


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:21 am 
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Gregwil made some excellent points. On a personal level i have to say i was disappointed by Webber. Far out of the championship and it was like pulling teeth for him to help his teammate. The exclamation point for me was the radio transmission by RBR to thank Mark for moving over when nothing else but moving over should have been expected....especially when you saw the way Massa worked for Alonso over the last quarter of the season. The funny thing i used to cheer on Webber years back while totally disliking Button yet over the past few years Button has proved to be a consumate professional while Mark seems to have gone the way of a bitter racer who never lived up to his own billing.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:55 am 
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maninblack wrote:
Misinformed wrote:
ManojHS wrote:
Considering an accident on lap 1 demoting him to the back of the grid + damaged body work + delayed pitstop + Torrential conditions + given the fact that he had a lead in the championship and just had to play it safe, p6 is a good result.


Accident on lap 1: Sebastian cut Senna off.
Damaged body work: Again, Sebastian caused that problem for himself.
Torrential conditions: It was the same for everyone, Seb doesn't earn merit points for that.
Had to play it safe: He didn't have to. Vettel was clearly not on it all weekend. He qualified P4. I'm not saying that's bad, but everyone, even people who dislike Vettel, would have expected more. I am 100% certain he would not have been taking it easy in qualifying so that is nothing more than an excuse.


Not sure what you're trying to say, Misinformed. Vettel caused some problems to himself, but shouldn't have won the WDC because he overcame said setbacks?

Misinformed wrote:
Whether you're the best, second best, or third best driver in Formula One, it means nothing in the grand scheme of things if you can't win a particular year's championship without someone having to yield to you.


What only matters in winning the Championship is one driver scoring more points than everyone else he's competing against.

The how of getting more points than everyone else doesn't always matter. If the powers-that-be deem the how to be controversial enough, then they'll investigate.


Firstly, I never said that Vettel overcoming the aforementioned setbacks deemed him undeserving of the championship. I simply stated that those particular set backs did not make his race better than any other driver's because he brought those set backs upon himself.

Secondly, I know full-well that the points are what matters at the end of the day. The point I'm trying to make is that everyone is having a whinge because Webber isn't as keen to give Vettel track position as Massa is to Alonso. The same people that are having a go at Webber for not yielding are the people that have a go at Massa for yielding to Alonso.

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