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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:16 am 
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As a Vettel fan, I am actually infinitely glad that Webber raced him all year. Because it means that Vettel won the world championship on his own steam. Webber has taken pole positions and finishing positions off him and fought him on track in the final race on several occasions and he still got there.

I find it laughable that people point to the Toro Rosso's moving over and Schumacher not putting up a fight to suggest that Vettel's WDC is somehow not worthy. Vettel would have passed the Toro Rosso's anyway - anyone who doubts his ability to overtake only needs to look at Spa 2012 or Abu Dhabi 2012 or even his other overtakes at Brazil. If a car's slower he breezes past the driver at the first available opportunity; I've had occasions where I've still been comprehending one pass and he's executed another. If it's an equal car he will still find a way through if the opportunity presents itself ala Button in Abu Dhabi. As for the Schumacher incident, Vettel didn't need that position to be WDC anyway.

What makes it really ridiculous is that his competitor for the WDC is the individual on the grid who gets the most help from his teammate to the extent that in the last few races Massa has essentially been racing for Alonso. He's stayed behind him when he's been faster, given up positions when he's been ahead, taken a grid penalty for him and then spent the Brazillian GP literally being his rear-gunner. How anyone can say Alonso is a more worthy champion is totally beyond me. Webber moved over for Vettel ONCE in the whole season in the final race and for the rest of the season and the race he was challenging him for grid spots, finishing positions and in wheel to wheel battles.

I see posters say that Vettel won't be considered a 'great' until he goes wheel to wheel against Alonso or Hamilton and yet these same people maintain that Alonso is a 'great' despite the fact that Alonso is a driver who is known for refusing to go up against a strong teammate or, on the occasions that he does, he chokes. Meanwhile, Vettel has never, ever, expected, asked for or needed a teammate who is not as good, much less subservient and he's certainly never fallen apart because he has. Goodness, in 2010 it was his teammate, Webber, who was in the box seat for the title and he choked in the final qualifying and race and Vettel overcame him on his own steam and went on to win.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:47 am 
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F1yer wrote:
zoomsthru wrote:
I must add that from Red Bull's point of view, Webber is the perfect teammate for Sebastian - he's very quick and can challenge Seb to raise his game, and bags plenty of points for the constructors championship, but is too inconsistent to be a championship threat (except if he has much better reliability, as in 2010). To me, this is still a better situation than at McLaren and Ferrari -
McLaren: The drivers are too competitive and can take massive points off each other. Good for the constructors title, not the best for the drivers' championship.
Ferrari: Massa (at least the 2011 - Sep 2012 version) is too uncompetitive. If he begins 2013 like he ended 2012, this will look like another Jenson-Lewis partnership.


Webber is good for pushing Vettel - I agree but when help is required he lacks teh certain attitude and he cant bring himself to give out help 100% .

i understand this coz its not easy especially from someone who is competetive and probbaly thinks he is better than the person he is helping - but from RBRs view point its a weakness and even other teams have taken note that Webber wont help with 100% commitment.

With regards to McLaren drivers being more competetive than webber - I can only LOL. Webber is faster than Button and that s the reason he is in any position to help Vettel. Same is not true of Button

I don't think that's true. On his day Button can be highly impressive, whereas outside qualifying I'm struggling to remember a really memorable race from Webber.

Webber's really disappointed me this year. Up until the break he was consistent and doing better overall than Seb. After the summer he just seemed to switch off. While Vettel was winning races and storming through the field, you could almost forget that Webber was even there. He looked like a man with all the fight taken out of him. I hope he gets his mojo back next year for his sake but I think the difference between him and Seb this year was as much about Mark under-performing as it was about Seb driving brilliantly.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:22 am 
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Zoue wrote:
I don't think that's true. On his day Button can be highly impressive, whereas outside qualifying I'm struggling to remember a really memorable race from Webber.

Webber's really disappointed me this year. Up until the break he was consistent and doing better overall than Seb. After the summer he just seemed to switch off. While Vettel was winning races and storming through the field, you could almost forget that Webber was even there. He looked like a man with all the fight taken out of him. I hope he gets his mojo back next year for his sake but I think the difference between him and Seb this year was as much about Mark under-performing as it was about Seb driving brilliantly.


I think Webber vs. Button would be like Lewis vs. Button. Webber would have him over one lap but Button's consistency over the season would mean he would probably end up ahead. Too bad they didn't end up at Williams together.

As a Webber fan, he has been rubbish the second half of the season - just look at the 2nd half championship, he is as bad as Button/Massa in the first half (maybe not as Massa). Ever since he sign the contract it has been downhill regardless of whether he had those gearbox penalties. The same can be said of Perez once he signed the McLaren contract. That is the problem with Webber, he cannot string consistent enough results in the top 3 to contend for the WDC because you know during the year he will have a run of sh1t races as well as good ones. At least he has recognized it for this season but really, it has been happening every season.

Memorable races:

- Debut win, Nurburgring even after serving a drive through penalty came back and won the race
- Silverstone front wing controversy and picking Seb at the start to go on and win the race
- Spanish and Monaco GPs absolutely smashed everyone in dominant wins
- Hungary closing the gap down MSC style to come out ahead in the lead
- 2x Monaco winner with a controlled win this year

A lot of memorable race wins IMO and some of them a lot better race wins than other drivers in the past.

Webber has a few weaknesses and consistency is the biggest one. Tilke tracks are another but considering Brazil was one of his better tracks, he drove like pants.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:37 am 
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PacificBeach wrote:
infi24r wrote:
He's in the best car but he needs Webbers help too?

As pointed out many times to you, he is not in the best car. Mclaren drives are and have been...


I think the Contructor's Title result says otherwise. Best does not equal fastest.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:41 am 
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F1yer wrote:
I m 100% sure - if Vettel had DNFed , Webber wouldnt be driving in 2013 for RBR.


Remind me to never believe one of your sure bets! ;)

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:03 am 
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v@sh wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I don't think that's true. On his day Button can be highly impressive, whereas outside qualifying I'm struggling to remember a really memorable race from Webber.

Webber's really disappointed me this year. Up until the break he was consistent and doing better overall than Seb. After the summer he just seemed to switch off. While Vettel was winning races and storming through the field, you could almost forget that Webber was even there. He looked like a man with all the fight taken out of him. I hope he gets his mojo back next year for his sake but I think the difference between him and Seb this year was as much about Mark under-performing as it was about Seb driving brilliantly.


I think Webber vs. Button would be like Lewis vs. Button. Webber would have him over one lap but Button's consistency over the season would mean he would probably end up ahead. Too bad they didn't end up at Williams together.

As a Webber fan, he has been rubbish the second half of the season - just look at the 2nd half championship, he is as bad as Button/Massa in the first half (maybe not as Massa). Ever since he sign the contract it has been downhill regardless of whether he had those gearbox penalties. The same can be said of Perez once he signed the McLaren contract. That is the problem with Webber, he cannot string consistent enough results in the top 3 to contend for the WDC because you know during the year he will have a run of sh1t races as well as good ones. At least he has recognized it for this season but really, it has been happening every season.

Memorable races:

- Debut win, Nurburgring even after serving a drive through penalty came back and won the race
- Silverstone front wing controversy and picking Seb at the start to go on and win the race
- Spanish and Monaco GPs absolutely smashed everyone in dominant wins
- Hungary closing the gap down MSC style to come out ahead in the lead
- 2x Monaco winner with a controlled win this year

A lot of memorable race wins IMO and some of them a lot better race wins than other drivers in the past.

Webber has a few weaknesses and consistency is the biggest one. Tilke tracks are another but considering Brazil was one of his better tracks, he drove like pants.

Sorry, I should have said this year. I know he's capable of good drives but so far this season he's not done anything particularly impressive. And I'm including Monaco in that. people were still trying to understand the tyres and everyone was tip-toeing around the circuit. Well done for getting the win but an impressive drive? Not really.

I'm not trying to put a downer on Mark. I quite like him, which is probably why I'm so disappointed in him this season. He had as much opportunity as Seb, if not more (considering he was ahead of him for quite a while), to win it but didn't really turn up in the second half of the season, getting involved in silly battles and quite frankly making a meal of a few races. Where Vettel seemed to glide past cars on charges to the front Mark really struggled to make an impact and often got held up, usually going backwards to put the icing on the cake. In all honesty he should be kicking himself up the backside and looking back on this year as one that he let slip away.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:40 am 
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Misinformed wrote:
It's bothersome the way people are constantly saying that Webber had to do this, and Webber had to do that. Those are not particularly things he had to do, but rather things you all wanted him to do. Mark said it himself in the post-qualifying press conference, he had his own cockpit to control. When he said that, people praised him for it. Simply because he was close to Sebastian into turn 1, that's grounds for trying to block him? Whether it's Vettel, Alonso, Hamilton or whoever that he would try to block into turn 1, that is simply something you do not do.

Drivers cannot afford to constantly be looking in their mirrors going into turn 1, trying to find specific drivers to impede, particularly given that the run to turn 1 at Brazil is relatively short.

On top of that, I don't understand why a teammate should have to show any regard for their teammate fighting for the world championship. Obviously they're going to work together in full force to try and grab the World Constructors' Championship, but ultimately the WDC did not concern Webber at all this race, he made that evident prior to the race as well. I think it's ridiculous for so many people to criticise Mark for trying to do what he loves which is to race his own race, rather than help Sebastian win a world championship.


Well said!

Reading through all of the discussion has left me a bit confused about comments of those criticising Webber. On one hand some are stating that Seb, being the world champ that he is, well he didn't need Mark's help. But then on the same side of the argument they state that Mark should have been blocking Ferraris into Turn 1. There's a big contraction there.

Webber started the race as he would have started any race...wanting to win the race and bring home maximum points for his team. It was up to Seb to prove he was worthy of the triple World Champion tag, and he duly did.

We've all seen Seb throw his toys out of the Newey pram when things don't go his way over the years...but by saying that Seb needs Daddy Webber to stick up for him and help him out doesn't make things any better..

Webber outqualified and outraced Vettel in Brazil, not for the first time in 2012.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:45 am 
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How did Webber "outrace" Vettel in Brazil? Vettel was faster throughout the race - don't forget Vettel actually had a) an extra pitstop and b) a very slow next pitstop to make up, both of which weren't his fault.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:50 am 
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mds wrote:
How did Webber "outrace" Vettel in Brazil? Vettel was faster throughout the race - don't forget Vettel actually had a) an extra pitstop and b) a very slow next pitstop to make up, both of which weren't his fault.


Vettel made contact with another car in Turn 4 on Lap 1.

And was helped by the safety car after that.

And finished behind Webber.

:?

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:14 am 
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purchville wrote:
Misinformed wrote:
It's bothersome the way people are constantly saying that Webber had to do this, and Webber had to do that. Those are not particularly things he had to do, but rather things you all wanted him to do. Mark said it himself in the post-qualifying press conference, he had his own cockpit to control. When he said that, people praised him for it. Simply because he was close to Sebastian into turn 1, that's grounds for trying to block him? Whether it's Vettel, Alonso, Hamilton or whoever that he would try to block into turn 1, that is simply something you do not do.

Drivers cannot afford to constantly be looking in their mirrors going into turn 1, trying to find specific drivers to impede, particularly given that the run to turn 1 at Brazil is relatively short.

On top of that, I don't understand why a teammate should have to show any regard for their teammate fighting for the world championship. Obviously they're going to work together in full force to try and grab the World Constructors' Championship, but ultimately the WDC did not concern Webber at all this race, he made that evident prior to the race as well. I think it's ridiculous for so many people to criticise Mark for trying to do what he loves which is to race his own race, rather than help Sebastian win a world championship.


Well said!

Reading through all of the discussion has left me a bit confused about comments of those criticising Webber. On one hand some are stating that Seb, being the world champ that he is, well he didn't need Mark's help. But then on the same side of the argument they state that Mark should have been blocking Ferraris into Turn 1. There's a big contraction there.

Webber started the race as he would have started any race...wanting to win the race and bring home maximum points for his team. It was up to Seb to prove he was worthy of the triple World Champion tag, and he duly did.

We've all seen Seb throw his toys out of the Newey pram when things don't go his way over the years...but by saying that Seb needs Daddy Webber to stick up for him and help him out doesn't make things any better..

Webber outqualified and outraced Vettel in Brazil, not for the first time in 2012.



If you cant help like other teammates (Massa being extremely helpful) - at least dont hinder ...

.. thats the least one can expect from a teammate !


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:36 am 
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purchville wrote:

Vettel made contact with another car in Turn 4 on Lap 1.


And Webber spun...

Quote:
And was helped by the safety car after that.


Vettel was already in front of Webber at that time, with an equal number of pitstops made. So the SC actually helped Mark close the 10s gap Vettel had pulled on him by then.

Quote:
And finished behind Webber.

:?


Because he had an extra pitstop and a very slow pitstop through no fault of his own, after which he again started reducing the gap to Mark despite not running in clear air at all.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:53 am 
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F1yer wrote:
purchville wrote:
Misinformed wrote:
It's bothersome the way people are constantly saying that Webber had to do this, and Webber had to do that. Those are not particularly things he had to do, but rather things you all wanted him to do. Mark said it himself in the post-qualifying press conference, he had his own cockpit to control. When he said that, people praised him for it. Simply because he was close to Sebastian into turn 1, that's grounds for trying to block him? Whether it's Vettel, Alonso, Hamilton or whoever that he would try to block into turn 1, that is simply something you do not do.

Drivers cannot afford to constantly be looking in their mirrors going into turn 1, trying to find specific drivers to impede, particularly given that the run to turn 1 at Brazil is relatively short.

On top of that, I don't understand why a teammate should have to show any regard for their teammate fighting for the world championship. Obviously they're going to work together in full force to try and grab the World Constructors' Championship, but ultimately the WDC did not concern Webber at all this race, he made that evident prior to the race as well. I think it's ridiculous for so many people to criticise Mark for trying to do what he loves which is to race his own race, rather than help Sebastian win a world championship.


Well said!

Reading through all of the discussion has left me a bit confused about comments of those criticising Webber. On one hand some are stating that Seb, being the world champ that he is, well he didn't need Mark's help. But then on the same side of the argument they state that Mark should have been blocking Ferraris into Turn 1. There's a big contraction there.

Webber started the race as he would have started any race...wanting to win the race and bring home maximum points for his team. It was up to Seb to prove he was worthy of the triple World Champion tag, and he duly did.

We've all seen Seb throw his toys out of the Newey pram when things don't go his way over the years...but by saying that Seb needs Daddy Webber to stick up for him and help him out doesn't make things any better..

Webber outqualified and outraced Vettel in Brazil, not for the first time in 2012.



If you cant help like other teammates (Massa being extremely helpful) - at least dont hinder ...

.. thats the least one can expect from a teammate !



Absolute rubbish. Teammates are the ultimate competitors with each other as long as they don't make contact. And they always will be, because that's the simplest measure of a driver.

As has already been said here. Webber didn't care for hindering or helping his teammate. He had his eyes on the best result possible for him. That is what he is paid to do. If Vettel makes contact with other cars and puts himself in difficult situations then that's for him to sort out, not Webber..

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:29 am 
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purchville wrote:
As has already been said here. Webber didn't care for hindering or helping his teammate. He had his eyes on the best result possible for him. That is what he is paid to do. If Vettel makes contact with other cars and puts himself in difficult situations then that's for him to sort out, not Webber..


You're not paying him, so you don't know what exactly he is paid for. But I would think, in the closing stage of the season and with a WDC on the line, his employer would rather have him act in the best intrest of the team. Which, at that point, was making sure Vettel would be WDC.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:06 pm 
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purchville wrote:
F1yer wrote:
If you cant help like other teammates (Massa being extremely helpful) - at least dont hinder ...

.. thats the least one can expect from a teammate !


Absolute rubbish. Teammates are the ultimate competitors with each other as long as they don't make contact. And they always will be, because that's the simplest measure of a driver.

As has already been said here. Webber didn't care for hindering or helping his teammate. He had his eyes on the best result possible for him. That is what he is paid to do. If Vettel makes contact with other cars and puts himself in difficult situations then that's for him to sort out, not Webber..

Oh yeah - what was he competing for? Title , win ? No a place on podium possibly. Do that all you want but at least dont dash the hopes of all the 100s of men and women working for the team in the process by denying them the title.

Why not explain "teammates are ultimate competitors" to Massa first (who gave up 5 grid slots for a benefit of 1 to Alonso and cleared the track for Alonso multiple times when running at front and played rear gunner when at the back) - He doent understand ultimate competitor - it seems
...and then take it up with FIA next (who allowed the TOs) if you want your idealistic scenario to play out.

Its a given that you dont jeopardize your own team (& teammate) when you are not fighting for the title yourself. Its not rocket science


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:17 pm 
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F1yer wrote:
Oh yeah - what was he competing for? Title , win ? No a place on podium possibly. Do that all you want but at least dont dash the hopes of all the 100s of men and women working for the team in the process by denying them the title.


Surely he was competing for a victory. Driving is his passion and that was clearly his goal. I bet you though he was only competing for 4th or 5th in the British GP too..Who are you to say he should settle for a podium anyway? From the start, Webber, could win the race without harming Seb's WDC efforts in the slightest.

F1yer wrote:
Why not explain "teammates are ultimate competitors" to Massa first (who gave up 5 grid slots for a benefit of 1 to Alonso and cleared the track for Alonso multiple times when running at front and played rear gunner when at the back) - He doent understand ultimate competitor - it seems
...and then take it up with FIA next (who allowed the TOs) if you want your idealistic scenario to play out.


Well deerrrr...Webber is not Massa and never will be..he has too much pride. As far as I'm concerned Massa is an anomaly in F1. He is the only driver that does give way to his teammate every time. So the whole Massa/Webber comparison is quite a lot of rubbish, or Massa/anyone for that matter.

F1yer wrote:
Its a given that you dont jeopardize your own team (& teammate) when you are not fighting for the title yourself. Its not rocket science


So show me when Mark Webber jeopardized Vettel's world championship in the Brazilian GP. Vettel jeopardized it all by himself IMHO. He's a worthy WDC but a very lucky boy.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:21 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Sorry, I should have said this year. I know he's capable of good drives but so far this season he's not done anything particularly impressive. And I'm including Monaco in that. people were still trying to understand the tyres and everyone was tip-toeing around the circuit. Well done for getting the win but an impressive drive? Not really.

I'm not trying to put a downer on Mark. I quite like him, which is probably why I'm so disappointed in him this season. He had as much opportunity as Seb, if not more (considering he was ahead of him for quite a while), to win it but didn't really turn up in the second half of the season, getting involved in silly battles and quite frankly making a meal of a few races. Where Vettel seemed to glide past cars on charges to the front Mark really struggled to make an impact and often got held up, usually going backwards to put the icing on the cake. In all honesty he should be kicking himself up the backside and looking back on this year as one that he let slip away.


Ah for this year. I agree, no real impressive drives. He drove well to win Monaco and Silverstone but they weren't impressive compared as some of this previous wins.

I think once Vettel is on a roll, Webber can't match him for consistency. I think Webber's racecraft was poorer this year as well, seemed impatient to get past cars and wasted more energy in the tyres in trying to get past cars at spots on the circuit that weren't going to work out. Spa was a great example of this, should have done what Vettel did and used the cars strengths to help overtake out of Blanchimont.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:16 am 
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F1yer wrote:
If you cant help like other teammates (Massa being extremely helpful) - at least dont hinder ...

.. thats the least one can expect from a teammate !

The same Massa from the 'Fernando is faster than you' debacle?

Webber did help Vettel, numerous times during the race. Vettel got a poor start, that's on him and his engineers, no one else.

Webber said he had a "long chat" with Sebastien just before the start of the Brazilian GP and that he ran wide deliberately later in the race so as not to get in his way so if you think he set out to impede him then I suggest you address your preconceptions.

It's like he said after Germany everyone thought he and Seb were having issues when in actual fact they were chilling on the plane ride home together, fans are just guessing.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:52 am 
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gregwil wrote:
Hakkattack wrote:
Wow, Massa has broke his back the past few races to support Alonso who for whatever reason lost pace big time. Massa was brilliant holding drivers up in Brazil and taking pressure off Alonso at every stretch. Webber on the other hand not only had no interest in helping Vettel, he was actually making life tough on him. At the start he cut down on Vettel path for his own good. At the restart he actually went 3 wise with Vettel and if not for going off track Webber could have caused a wreck.

I know many feel Massa did way too much for Alonso taking 5 grid penalties, etc. On the other and I am not saying Webber had to pull of track for Vettel, but to race him wheel to wheel with the title on the line was in stark contrast to what Ferrari were willing to do.
You beat me to it Hakk I was just typing up the following because I believe what Webber did in the race was way out of order.

Here is my view:-

I do not have any issues with on track team orders however I am glad that Webber did not help Vettel throughout the year as it just makes Vettel's winning the WDC a lot stronger. Having said that though I do think that what Webber tried to do in Brazil was bang out of order. I didn't expect him to just jump out of Vettel's way but he did everything he could to hinder Vettel other than drive straight into him.

1. At the start he completely opens the door for the Ferrari's and covers Vettel giving both Ferrari's extra positions and causing Vettel to loose three, any other team mate would have tried to cover the Ferrari's and if he lost position to his team mate then so be it.
2. At the end of the first lap he goes to the outside of Massa and therefore leaves the door completely open for Alonso who is obviously Vettel's only rival at this stage. Massa simply had to keep Mark on the outside and allow Alonso through which he did and also compromised his own positions by doing so, this was obviously what he was always going to do and I think this was an easy way for Mark to hand the place to Alonso without making it too obvious.
3. He then doesn't try challenge Alonso and even when Alonso goes off on lap 3 Mark makes at best a half hearted attempt at getting past. OK this is the one part that could probably be argued and maybe he did try although it didn't appear that he was trying very hard, I would bet that if it was Vettel who had been in front he would have tried a lot harder.
4. Lap 11 Vettel comes out of the pits behind Webber, Webber should have immediately given him that place but no a lap later Webber is still in front even though Vettel has been on his gearbox for the whole lap, down the DRS straight Webber still stays ahead and then reluctantly after a lap and a half he gives Vettel the place.
5. At the end of the safety car period on lap 29 Kobayashi goes to overtake Vettel on the inside and for some messed up reason Webber tries on the outside which obviously distracts Vettel and then allows Kobayashi through, he may have still gone through but it was so unnecessary for Webber to do what he did there and could have caused major problems which is what I am sure his aim was.

I cannot understand why Red Bull keep this guy. I don't think that they should provide Vettel with a Massa who will jump out of his way but I also think that it is wrong to give him a team mate who has this massive chip on his shoulder about being outclassed so often. Give him a team mate that will race him throughout the year but when it comes down to him no longer having a chance at the title will maybe still not just jump out of the way but will concentrate more on hindering the opposition than his own team mate.


:thumbup: :thumbup:

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:58 am 
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v@sh wrote:
Ah for this year. I agree, no real impressive drives. He drove well to win Monaco and Silverstone but they weren't impressive compared as some of this previous wins.

He drove from 19th to 4th in Valencia.

Webber was managing issues on his car for much of the year, if it wasn't one thing it was another and his race strategy was often terrible.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:59 am 
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gregwil wrote:
I cannot understand why Red Bull keep this guy. I don't think that they should provide Vettel with a Massa who will jump out of his way but I also think that it is wrong to give him a team mate who has this massive chip on his shoulder about being outclassed so often. Give him a team mate that will race him throughout the year but when it comes down to him no longer having a chance at the title will maybe still not just jump out of the way but will concentrate more on hindering the opposition than his own team mate.

They keep the guy because he does exactly what they need him to do over the season, and that's to gain enough points to help them lock out the WCC while not being quite strong enough to consistently challenge his team mate for the WDC. With the possible exception of 2011 (and I say "possible" because with the amount of points Seb got it's arguable that almost anybody could have been able to get the extra 106 points or so they needed to secure the WCC that season) they have needed both drivers to perform sufficiently to win the WCC. Mark is a very strong number two and from the WCC point of view much better than e.g. Massa or Grosjean have been this year. I would say that I wouldn't understand why they would feel the need to get rid of the guy.

As for helping Seb, tbh Seb has largely shown that he doesn't really need Mark to help him. Minor incidents aside, I can't think of any time where Mark's actions have been a real problem for him. I know there's some discussion about Brazil, but tbh on the first lap it's usually chaos and most drivers have their hands full enough trying to navigate the first corners unscathed without trying to think about strategy etc. It's every man for himself there.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:01 am 
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Formula1Fan. wrote:
v@sh wrote:
Ah for this year. I agree, no real impressive drives. He drove well to win Monaco and Silverstone but they weren't impressive compared as some of this previous wins.

He drove from 19th to 4th in Valencia.

Webber was managing issues on his car for much of the year, if it wasn't one thing it was another and his race strategy was often terrible.

Seriously, Mark has to take most of the responsibility for his performances this year, not the team. He just hasn't cut it


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:46 pm 
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Formula1Fan. wrote:
Vettel got a poor start


No, Webber got a very poor start and Vettel, on the dirty side, actually had the better start. Reacting on his bad start Webber decided to go for the line he knew his teammate was going to take. He really could have handled it differently.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 2:34 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
gregwil wrote:
I cannot understand why Red Bull keep this guy. I don't think that they should provide Vettel with a Massa who will jump out of his way but I also think that it is wrong to give him a team mate who has this massive chip on his shoulder about being outclassed so often. Give him a team mate that will race him throughout the year but when it comes down to him no longer having a chance at the title will maybe still not just jump out of the way but will concentrate more on hindering the opposition than his own team mate.

They keep the guy because he does exactly what they need him to do over the season, and that's to gain enough points to help them lock out the WCC while not being quite strong enough to consistently challenge his team mate for the WDC. With the possible exception of 2011 (and I say "possible" because with the amount of points Seb got it's arguable that almost anybody could have been able to get the extra 106 points or so they needed to secure the WCC that season) they have needed both drivers to perform sufficiently to win the WCC. Mark is a very strong number two and from the WCC point of view much better than e.g. Massa or Grosjean have been this year. I would say that I wouldn't understand why they would feel the need to get rid of the guy.

As for helping Seb, tbh Seb has largely shown that he doesn't really need Mark to help him. Minor incidents aside, I can't think of any time where Mark's actions have been a real problem for him. I know there's some discussion about Brazil, but tbh on the first lap it's usually chaos and most drivers have their hands full enough trying to navigate the first corners unscathed without trying to think about strategy etc. It's every man for himself there.

Whilst I generally agree with your comments (i.e Mark is a driver that is able to provide good points in the WCC), the way he drove at the beginning of Brazil showed that he's not a good team player. At that point (he was out of the WDC) there is no excuse for actively impeding Seb, which he did IMO at the start of the race.

Personally, I would have loved to see Mark beat Seb this season, as I've no doubt he's been treated unfairly during their time together. Even so, he behaved badly in Brazil (after he was out of WDC contention) - whilst Massa rolled over backwards to help Alonso.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:03 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Formula1Fan. wrote:
v@sh wrote:
Ah for this year. I agree, no real impressive drives. He drove well to win Monaco and Silverstone but they weren't impressive compared as some of this previous wins.

He drove from 19th to 4th in Valencia.

Webber was managing issues on his car for much of the year, if it wasn't one thing it was another and his race strategy was often terrible.

Seriously, Mark has to take most of the responsibility for his performances this year, not the team. He just hasn't cut it


:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

very poor form for Webebr this year. His starts have been bad for years and years now. Getting very tired of Red Bull sabatoge talk with Webber. No team on earth would risk sending a driver to the grid with a problem.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 5:00 pm 
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Looking at Webber and Massa through the various seasons that they have been teammates to Vettel & Alonso respectively, one difference certainly stands out

Webber never tried to help Vettel and on more than one occasion actually fought him for places. Even when his own championship hopes were over and Vettel was still in the running, Webber had to be asked not to fight Vettel, as at Abu Dhabi. I have no problem with that since Webber is a proud racer too but the fact remains that he did not bend over backwards to help Vettel at any stage. If my calculations are right, Webber has won 9 races himself since Vettel became his teammate.

Massa on the other hand seems to be in the team only for one reason since Alonso joined Ferrari - to help the Spaniard. Whether willingly or without choice, right from "Fernando is faster than you" to the infamous Massa gear box fiasco in Austin, there have been plenty of instances where Massa has been held back or otherwise manipulated to assist Alonso, occasionally when the Brazilian seemed clearly faster. Massa, who has won 11 races for Ferrari and almost the WDC in 2008, has not come close to winning a race since Alonso became his teammate.

For that reason alone, IMO Vettel deserves the WDC far more than Alonso ever will.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:03 pm 
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Zekenwolf wrote:
Looking at Webber and Massa through the various seasons that they have been teammates to Vettel & Alonso respectively, one difference certainly stands out

Webber never tried to help Vettel and on more than one occasion actually fought him for places. Even when his own championship hopes were over and Vettel was still in the running, Webber had to be asked not to fight Vettel, as at Abu Dhabi. I have no problem with that since Webber is a proud racer too but the fact remains that he did not bend over backwards to help Vettel at any stage. If my calculations are right, Webber has won 9 races himself since Vettel became his teammate.

Massa on the other hand seems to be in the team only for one reason since Alonso joined Ferrari - to help the Spaniard. Whether willingly or without choice, right from "Fernando is faster than you" to the infamous Massa gear box fiasco in Austin, there have been plenty of instances where Massa has been held back or otherwise manipulated to assist Alonso, occasionally when the Brazilian seemed clearly faster. Massa, who has won 11 races for Ferrari and almost the WDC in 2008, has not come close to winning a race since Alonso became his teammate.

For that reason alone, IMO Vettel deserves the WDC far more than Alonso ever will.


Wait, let me get this straight. It's Alonso's fault, for comprehensively destroying Massa so he doesn't have the opportunity to win a race? Isn't that what racing drivers are meant to do? Beat their teammates?

Or are you trying to say, Alonso deserves it less, because his teammate is worse? That's just as ridiculous. Maybe it's Alonso making Massa look bad, because as you pointed out, before Alonso joined, Massa was winning races and fighting for the championship, now that Alonso is here, he isn't.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:37 pm 
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RunningMan wrote:
Zekenwolf wrote:
Looking at Webber and Massa through the various seasons that they have been teammates to Vettel & Alonso respectively, one difference certainly stands out

Webber never tried to help Vettel and on more than one occasion actually fought him for places. Even when his own championship hopes were over and Vettel was still in the running, Webber had to be asked not to fight Vettel, as at Abu Dhabi. I have no problem with that since Webber is a proud racer too but the fact remains that he did not bend over backwards to help Vettel at any stage. If my calculations are right, Webber has won 9 races himself since Vettel became his teammate.

Massa on the other hand seems to be in the team only for one reason since Alonso joined Ferrari - to help the Spaniard. Whether willingly or without choice, right from "Fernando is faster than you" to the infamous Massa gear box fiasco in Austin, there have been plenty of instances where Massa has been held back or otherwise manipulated to assist Alonso, occasionally when the Brazilian seemed clearly faster. Massa, who has won 11 races for Ferrari and almost the WDC in 2008, has not come close to winning a race since Alonso became his teammate.

For that reason alone, IMO Vettel deserves the WDC far more than Alonso ever will.


Wait, let me get this straight. It's Alonso's fault, for comprehensively destroying Massa so he doesn't have the opportunity to win a race? Isn't that what racing drivers are meant to do? Beat their teammates?

Or are you trying to say, Alonso deserves it less, because his teammate is worse? That's just as ridiculous. Maybe it's Alonso making Massa look bad, because as you pointed out, before Alonso joined, Massa was winning races and fighting for the championship, now that Alonso is here, he isn't.


You know perfectly well what I am trying to say but are deliberately trying to introduce implications that were not made in order to deflect the central conclusion. I acknowledge that Alonso is a better driver than Massa but not to the extent that their results and scorelines suggest over the 3 seasons that they have been teammates. In the Ferrari team, Alonso is the numero uno in every sense and Massa is relegated to an also ran. On the few occasions that Massa has hinted at outperforming his teammate, he has been pulled back one way or another. Such treatment invariably affects one's self-confidence and urge to do better; I am certain that Massa, knowing that he will never be allowed to outshine Alonso, has lost that extra edge that race winners need in this highly competitive sport.


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(kai_)What makes it really ridiculous is that his competitor for the WDC is the individual on the grid who gets the most help from his teammate to the extent that in the last few races Massa has essentially been racing for Alonso. He's stayed behind him when he's been faster, given up positions when he's been ahead, taken a grid penalty for him and then spent the Brazillian GP literally being his rear-gunner. How anyone can say Alonso is a more worthy champion is totally beyond me. Webber moved over for Vettel ONCE in the whole season in the final race and for the rest of the season and the race he was challenging him for grid spots, finishing positions and in wheel to wheel battles.
Exactly. Right from the infamous "crashgate" affair, Alonso has benefitted from his teammate one way or the other. As pointed out in another post, Alonso has had far more luck than Vettel in 2012 to have got where he did. That and reliability of the Ferrari, for which the engineers and not the driver deserve credit.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 12:09 am 
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I started this thread based on how each approached the final race with the title on the line for their teammate. Simply pointing out Massa went way out in one direction, and Webber seemed to go well the other.

Not about Vettel, Alonso, or past incidents....

Just interesting how Massa held up the field as best he could, and let Alonso by twice and Webber on the other hand was in no mood to help and even went 3 wide with Vettel in the middle at one point


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 3:25 am 
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mds wrote:
No, Webber got a very poor start and Vettel, on the dirty side, actually had the better start. Reacting on his bad start Webber decided to go for the line he knew his teammate was going to take. He really could have handled it differently.

No, Vettel got a poor start and kept going backwards. Trust me when I say I know what a poor Webber start looks like. Webber moved across to get between Vettel and the potential threat of being taken out by the Ferraris. He played a team role the whole race ducking and diving out of Vettel's way. As I said, he and Vettel had a discussion before the start of the Brazilian GP.

Zekenwolf wrote:
Massa on the other hand seems to be in the team only for one reason since Alonso joined Ferrari - to help the Spaniard. Whether willingly or without choice, right from "Fernando is faster than you" to the infamous Massa gear box fiasco in Austin, there have been plenty of instances where Massa has been held back or otherwise manipulated to assist Alonso, occasionally when the Brazilian seemed clearly faster. Massa, who has won 11 races for Ferrari and almost the WDC in 2008, has not come close to winning a race since Alonso became his teammate.

Of course it's without choice, no driver wants to be patsy for another. Can you imagine the roles reversed with serial toy-throwers Vettel and Alonso forced into supporting roles?

I think some ought to think about that before trying to lay it on Massa and Webber.

Hakkattack wrote:
I started this thread based on how each approached the final race with the title on the line for their teammate. Simply pointing out Massa went way out in one direction, and Webber seemed to go well the other.

Not about Vettel, Alonso, or past incidents...

Everyone already knows why you made the thread, it's bare-faced and transparent, and now it's not going the direction you want.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 8:59 am 
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Formula1Fan. wrote:
I think some ought to think about that before trying to lay it on Massa and Webber.


I am not 'laying into' Massa at all. I like Massa and I think he is a much better driver than his performances since 2010 suggest. Webber is also a fine driver and can come up with excellent performances when motivated but he is often moody and seems to lose concentration at crucial times.

Massa, under circumstances of whatever making, has allowed himslef to play the patsy to Alonso in a manner that is no less than demeaning. Montezemolo's comment about not wanting "two roosters in a henhouse" in relation to the rumour of Vettel joining Ferrari actually sums up Massa's position within the team. Nothing could have been a worse insult to the man.

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