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I see. Thanks for the clarification.

I agree entirely. When Mark squeezed Seb out at the start, I was dumb-struck as he knew that Seb was fighting for the WDC. But he (sort of) made amends later at the re-start when he went off-track rather than risking taking Seb out.

Massa on the other hand, slowed down to let Alonso past and was a rear-gunner throughout when he was behind.

I sympathise with Mark and would far prefer him to win a WDC over Seb! But he behaved badly at the beginning of this race.

Going through turn 1 if Mark backs off to let Sebastian through he runs the risk of being involved in a massive Spa-like crash. This is motor racing. Let the drivers race.

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You have a point, but the difference is that the last race was the WDC decider!

I dislike team orders, so am happy to criticise Massa when he goes (IMO) OTT with being a lap-dog, whereas as long as Mark had a chance at the WDC I enthusiastically supported him not letting Seb past.

It was a racing incident - any driver can get involved in that. What happened afterwards was greatness, despite being under the most extreme of pressure. Yes, the conditions were the same for everybody, but Vettel was quite a bit faster than Alonso in the rain (where Alonso fans were hoping it would rain all week long because then "true driver skills show") - evidenced by the fact Vettel had effectively closed the gap with Alonso to +- 6 seconds by lap 10 and +- 1.5 seconds by lap 19 (he came in one lap after Alonso for new tyres, by which he lost time), when the safety car came into play. Seeing how he was reversed after T4 and dead last, that's quite impressive.

The failing radio wasn't his fault. The extra pit stop wasn't his fault. The pit stop where his tyres weren't ready wasn't his fault. He drove a big part of the race with an engine mapping that set the car to reduced power. His aero and thus car balance was off. And still, he was way more impressive in the rain than Alonso.

For all the people that are saying that Vettel finished last of the fastest, needed help from everybody, blablabla, take into consideration that Red Bull messed up the strategy and fitted dry tyres when it started to rain near the end of the race. Had Red Bull fitted inters in the first place, Vettel would had finished in front (or very close) of Alonso ( Alonso did 1-2 laps on slicks when the circuit was wet before changing to inters).

It's really funny how people keep embarrassing themselves trying to criticize Vettel, blinded by their hate. From the crash kid in 2010 to the youngest triple world champion in 2012.

When I watched the race live it was on the edge of seat stuff start to end so did not pay too much attention to Webber.

I watched it again the following day and paid more attention to what he was doing, if you can watch it again and then tell me I'm wrong.

When he left the start line he actively chopped Vettel, his focus was all on getting ahead of Vettel and nothing else. Generally no problem but at this part of the season when you have lost the WDC why be that way towards your team mate. He didn't have to help him but he shouldn't have been trying to hinder him either.

After the restart he didn't run wide to let Vettel through . He was behind Vettel and tried to overtake him and outbraked himself and could have caused unnecessary problems for his team mate.

Later in the race he reluctantly let Vettel through after a lap and a half of Vettel being right behind him. Vettel was clearly faster than him at that stage and even Webber would have found it difficult to explain why he did not let him through if he had not eventually done so, besides had he not done so Red Bull would have rightly just brought him into the pits which would have cost him even more.

Webber has a huge chip on his shoulder, of that there is no doubt, and he would have preferred Alonso to win, also no doubt.....

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He had to finish 4th, not 5th. And why? Because Vettel would have been in a far safer position, to avoid any first lap incidents. Seems pretty clear to me.

It was a racing incident. It's very probable Vettel never saw Senna since Di Resta was in his left mirror.
Webber actively caused Vettel to lose a few places.

How hard is this anyway? You don't squeeze your teammate who's fighting for WDC. End of story.

Webber doesnt have it in his genes while Massa has loads !

Pretty ridiculous argument. How many people finish on their grid spots especially on a rainy race?

It was Webbers job to block Massa (and Alonso) and let Vettel slip away never to be seen by the red cars. Instead he did just the opposite. Poor show

That was a red mist moment from Vettel although Senna did overshoot his braking point as well.

But all that is off topic in this thread. Its about what Webber / Massa could and should have done .

Massa did it despite being the faster one - covering and letting Alonso past other cars and Webber did just the opposite and actually hurting Vettel - who was lucky to have finished.

I m 100% sure - if Vettel had DNFed , Webber wouldnt be driving in 2013 for RBR.

No, but you can certainly lose it. Which is why you don't squeeze your team-mate who's going for WDC, and instead give him breathing space.


Have you seen what Massa did? I will forever remember this specific performance from him, because it was THAT good. In contrast, what Webber did was just plainly wrong.

The fact you're pretty much the first and only I've seen with this opinion does too. And it's true, Mark moved over at one point, after having been holding him up for the better part of 2 laps.

But really, once again, since you don't seem to get it: Vettel had the better start and Mark squeezed his team-mate who was in full contention for the WDC. You don't do that. Never, ever, ever.

Their is some logic in that but NOT giving him position at the start is not same as squeezing him into the apex either.

Actually I would have liked to see an "orchestration plan" just for the start- where Webber covers the outside and Vettel takes the inside - thus bloclking the Ferraris or at least making them go way outside and compromise their exit . The way Webber keeps coming towards the inside even at a slight disadvantage to his own racing line just looked ridiculous.

I would also fault Webber for not being able to cover Alonso - he chose the outside line when trying to overtake Massa - Should have chosen the inside to cover Alonso - His focus shudnt be to take MAssa but keep Alonso behind.

And then - when Alonso made a mistake later on - failed to make a jump on him when it would be a simple aggressive move of taking a late braking inside line and easily done because Alonso wouldnt want to risk anything.

Not at all - because we are discussing something totally different from the end result.
End result was pure lucky that Vettel managed to finish - had he not RBR wold have lost the title and a good portion of blame would have come to Mark.

It speaks about the attitude Mark has - to do absolutely minimum to help even when he himself is not in the fight. It shows a chink in RBRs armor when dealing with other teams .. I really hope RBR see something in Webber which outweighs his attitude issues. Mark should thank his stars that vettel finished amd just clinched the title otherwise it would be a tough one for him to explain

Good driver but not one to rely upon when needed.

Just about everybody who's watching F1 and is not a major fan of the driver being discussed. And even among those last, I suspect some would say the same. Obviously that doesn't include you.



I'm not saying Webber should behave as submissive as Massa, but there's more than just black and white. Webber can go his ways all season, but this was the last race and the stakes were enormous. And Webber was out of contention.

As F1yer said:


Vettel got the better start, Webber focused on keeping him on the behind. At that point in the season, that's always wrong. No matter how stubborn you are about it, it was ridiculous.

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^^ All the above does is illustrate how much of a good job Webber did in letting Alonso and Massa drive clean around both he and Vettel. I'm struggling to understand what Webber thought he was doing, in terms of helping his team-mate in this situation. He clearly wasn't thinking of his team-mate at this point - he moved over and pinned Vettel to the wall, when what he needed to do was move to the outside to make himself a mobile chicane for Alonso and Massa to negotiate.

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Agree.
That's what you do in normal racing: close the door.
But like the OP said, this was the final race, the title deciding race, and Webber wasn't racing for the title, what should've been done was to take the outside to keep the Ferraris away from Vettel who was taking the inside. Instead, he raced Vettel as if he was his rival while letting the door open wide for Alonso as if he was his team mate. The question is, at that moment, which one did he think his team mate was, and who his rival was?

Second screenshot shows he is just minding Vettel and not the others about to pass him. He should have stayed higher, Hulkenberg probably wouldn't have passed Vettel by doing so (and Vettel would have been able to go faster by not having to back off).
All that shows is Webber opened up a really nice hole for both Alonso and Hulkenberg to dive into.

In response to the OP, I was surprised by how uncooperative Webber was. Given that the constructors was sealed, the best outcome for Webber in this race was a win while his teammate was fighting for a championship. Under such circumstances, I expect anybody to help out a teammate and even at the risk of compromising their own race. Especially in the light of these events in the past:

1. Hungarian GP 2010: Vettel incurs drive-through penalty when holding up Alonso behind the safety car. The reason for doing so - to help his teammate and world championship rival Webber jump ahead of Fernando. Set aside the fact that Vettel and Red Bull should have been aware of the 10-car-length rule - Vettel helped out Webber even when they were both fighting for the drivers' championship.
2. Brazilan GP 2011: This race was a dead-rubber as far as the championships were concerned, but Vettel was extremely cooperative in letting Webber past when his car was hobbled with a missing gear. He even communicated to the team where he would let Webber past so that there was no confusion.

Even though I am not a Ferrari fan, I fully support their moves to help Fernando and their previous championship contenders. More than just staying out of the way, Felipe actively played a role in making things easier for Fernando. He even helped Kimi out in the 2007 finale at the start. In return Kimi let Felipe pass him for 2nd place in China in 2008. Ferrari clearly have a history in this regard in the Schumacher era, including the '99 Malaysian GP where Schumi held up Hakkinen and allowed Irvine to pass him twice on track to take the championship lead.

In the light of such teamwork, I expect drivers to be as cooperative as they can to aid their teammates' championship efforts. But the fact that Webber has received help from Vettel in the past make his actions on Sunday even harder to justify.

I must add that from Red Bull's point of view, Webber is the perfect teammate for Sebastian - he's very quick and can challenge Seb to raise his game, and bags plenty of points for the constructors championship, but is too inconsistent to be a championship threat (except if he has much better reliability, as in 2010). To me, this is still a better situation than at McLaren and Ferrari -
McLaren: The drivers are too competitive and can take massive points off each other. Good for the constructors title, not the best for the drivers' championship.
Ferrari: Massa (at least the 2011 - Sep 2012 version) is too uncompetitive. If he begins 2013 like he ended 2012, this will look like another Jenson-Lewis partnership.

I need to stick up for this fellows opinion here, NOBODY was going to stop such fast starting ferraris. they would've gotten past regardless of whether Mark tried to block them.

In turn 1 of a grand prix you should firstly be avoiding collisions, secondly be trying to make up positions, blocking is only a momentary consideration when you've already committed to a braking point (in my opinion)

Mark would've let Seb go by in the braking zone after a straight, shouldn't risk collisions by blocking or backing off into the first corner! You guys are st00pid.

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before the race Allan McNish pointed out on sky that the secret to Ferrari/Alonsos starts has been the outside line into the first corner, now I'm sure he is not the only person to notice this and.. ok forget the chmpionship for one second..Webber surely would hav known this too, and he is in front and surely wanted to remain so, so sicking to the outer line stopping the ferraris (or making it a lil harder anyway) to do the usual Alonso trickwould have made sense yet he feels the NEED to squeeze his own eam mate and leave he door wide open for rivals

the fact it was the last race and his team mate was in contention made it worse

It's bothersome the way people are constantly saying that Webber had to do this, and Webber had to do that. Those are not particularly things he had to do, but rather things you all wanted him to do. Mark said it himself in the post-qualifying press conference, he had his own cockpit to control. When he said that, people praised him for it. Simply because he was close to Sebastian into turn 1, that's grounds for trying to block him? Whether it's Vettel, Alonso, Hamilton or whoever that he would try to block into turn 1, that is simply something you do not do.

Drivers cannot afford to constantly be looking in their mirrors going into turn 1, trying to find specific drivers to impede, particularly given that the run to turn 1 at Brazil is relatively short.

On top of that, I don't understand why a teammate should have to show any regard for their teammate fighting for the world championship. Obviously they're going to work together in full force to try and grab the World Constructors' Championship, but ultimately the WDC did not concern Webber at all this race, he made that evident prior to the race as well. I think it's ridiculous for so many people to criticise Mark for trying to do what he loves which is to race his own race, rather than help Sebastian win a world championship.

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It's funny you would mock that part because those weren't my words, they were spoken by a commentator.

Remember Vettel didn't need to win the race, he just needed to get through the start unscathed as that would have been the perfect time for him to be taken out.

The first thing Webber did was move right over alongside Vettel and it wasn't to squeeze him, just as he moved over to assist Vettel twice later on in the race.



Vettel was behind two McLarens, he was never slipping away anywhere. You're crazy if you think Webber was trying to squeeze Vettel in front of his team and the watching world, he even pulled off the track later in the race to let Vettel through.

Fans just didn't understand what was going on. Vettel was at his most vulnerable at the start, Webber stayed alongside him to prevent a collision.

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I haven't read this whole thread but just skimmed through it, seems many people are blaming Mark for not helping Seb at the start. Mark never said he was going to help Seb, in every interview he had before Brazil he said he was going to concentrate on his own race and get the best possible result he can, why are people blaming him for not doing something he said he was never going to do? If anything I was surprised to see Webber move aside for Vettel later in the race, but that was more critical at the time as Vettel was a long way off a reasonable result at that stage to secure the championship.

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No, that's what he should have done. He opened up a gap for both the Ferrari's and Hulkenberg. Granted he couldn't have fended all of them off, but I am quite sure he could at least have kept Hulkenberg behind while Vettel would have gone through.



No, that's true, so having a bad start he decided to go for the line he knew his team mate would take?

It wasn't a sensible thing to do. They are racing drivers, they can at least know this.



Well, that's quite the end of the discussion then really, isn't it?

But I'll try one more time: the team wants to win the WDC (possibly even more than the WDC). The team pays the drivers. That's a very sound reason for a driver to act in the best interest of the team. Especially when Webber isn't treated as a lap dog and he gets enough chances to win races with a great car.

Crikey.
Well it's obvious where my allegiance lies, and I'm not going to join in the tit for tat, but it really shows that whilst the SV fans accuse us of blindly following our man, all they manage to show is that they have the same superior attitude as SV himself.
I've never known a bunch of people who are so blindly ignorant to facts and that whatever Seb does is right and whatever anyone else does is wrong, and whatever they say is right and whatever anyone else says is wrong.
I am in awe of their ability to interpret a Grand Prix from their sofa, and their in depth knowledge of how to drive an F1 car and a Grand Prix. Respect.
Not.

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It has nothing to do with feeling superior. Had it been exactly the other way around, I would have found it stupid of Vettel to behave like that. Just like I found it clever and applauded Ferrari for it when they broke Massa's seal in Austin - compromising a possible exciting result for Massa to give Alonso any help he could.

For me it's just common sense. I don't really get how you translate that to me feeling superior.



Ah great, that was one "argument" that wasn't brought into the discussion yet.
This is not an argument, it doesn't invalidate a proper discussion, and I'm glad for that because if it would, a lot of interesting discussions about F1 would be invalidated.


edit: forgot to mention: I actually like Mark a lot. I just think he got the start dead wrong.

Webber is good for pushing Vettel - I agree but when help is required he lacks teh certain attitude and he cant bring himself to give out help 100% .

i understand this coz its not easy especially from someone who is competetive and probbaly thinks he is better than the person he is helping - but from RBRs view point its a weakness and even other teams have taken note that Webber wont help with 100% commitment.

With regards to McLaren drivers being more competetive than webber - I can only LOL. Webber is faster than Button and that s the reason he is in any position to help Vettel. Same is not true of Button

Webber will fight harder than Massa in my opinion to not be classed as a second driver. Massa has been the 'second driver' at Ferrari for a while now, excluding the year he very nearly won. Despite Webber losing out to Vettel for 3 consecutive years, I think he would rather drive his own race as much as he could until he has now choice than to concede. Plus, he knows that if he doesn't perform to his best 100% of the time, he may lose his race seat. I'm sure there are a lot of drivers who would like to have his seat...The same would go for Massa, but Ferrari know they can also use him as a rear gunner, which isn't good for Massa.

Nice sofa you got there, man.