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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:54 pm 
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http://youtu.be/LFER0esusF0

Have a look at this video. He passed Vergne under flashing yellow lights just before turn 4. The yellows were still on his dashboard so he has no excuse. FOM missed it because they were showing all those start replays again, Sky caught it via the onboard option.

I know what is done is done and I'm not asking for an inquiry are any of that BS. But FOM have to wonder if they need to be more consistent and if they need to have more people looking at everything, perhaps have one person focusing on one driver the entire race so avoid missing such things. Because lets face it that could have cost Alonso the title.

Time to stop with all the replays as well, one or two is enough until after the race for fans, or have a seperate window at least.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:01 pm 
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What do the rules dictate when a driver goes off the throttle that obviously?


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:04 pm 
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mds wrote:
What do the rules dictate when a driver goes off the throttle that obviously?

No overtaking. The TR didn't have a problem. Vettel should have handed the place back as soon as possible. He didn't. So should in hindsight have had a penalty.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:06 pm 
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If the driver you are "overtaking" is clearly letting you go/getting out of the way then what can you do? If you wanted to ruin someone's race all you'd have to do is move over and crawl through yellows then, forcing him to crawl behind you.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:07 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
If the driver you are "overtaking" is clearly letting you go/getting out of the way then what can you do? If you wanted to ruin someone's race all you'd have to do is move over and crawl through yellows then, forcing him to crawl behind you.


This is exactly why I asked that particular question.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:09 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
If the driver you are "overtaking" is clearly letting you go/getting out of the way then what can you do? If you wanted to ruin someone's race all you'd have to do is move over and crawl through yellows then, forcing him to crawl behind you.

JEV had to slow down, it was still a yellow zone, Vettel should not have passed him, especially when the green zone was so near anyway. The yellows are there for a reason, safety, so yes drivers should be expected to crawl through that zone until a green appears if needed. It's not like the STR had a problem, he was just backing off for the yellows on the straight a bit. Vettel just had to hand the place back briefly anyway, it wasn't like the STR was going to put up a fight.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:13 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
The yellows are there for a reason, safety, so yes drivers should be expected to crawl through that zone


Have you been watching F1 races lately? Or, in fact, ever?


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:13 pm 
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The TR was right in lifting in a YELLOW FLAG ZONE

Vettel is the luckiest driver ever, Lewis was right.

Fia missed it and there is nothing that can be done about it now.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:14 pm 
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I didn't say anything about JEV or Seb or should or shouldn't have done what. I asked how the rules address the situation I described. One driver might not have a problem and still want to let a faster car through, especially in wet conditions. If THAT driver hasn't noticed the waved yellows and slows down and moves over to let the other by, what is the one behind supposed to do? If he can't take the place being given to him, he must sit behind the now very slow car that is just hanging out off the racing line? Like I said, that's an easy way to add quite a bit of time to your rivals' laps.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:14 pm 
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Another reason why 'B' teams should be outlawed. If this had been picked up on the live feed he'd have had a penalty. I dont however think it would have made a huge difference in the standings.

You cant really deny that it was an illegal overtake I'm afraid.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:15 pm 
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Whoah, so Alonso 2012 WDC??


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:15 pm 
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Someone submit this to the FIA please?


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:16 pm 
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suggesting the FOM was watchign the Live feed TV replys like we all do in tv is just ................... i never thought they just siut back relax and watch the same feed we do in tv .... race director has all cameras and all angles and all yellow green red orange lights in the track to check out , they won't miss something like an infraction cause they are busy watchign the TV feed reply....


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:16 pm 
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Ev0lutionz wrote:
Someone submit this to the FIA please?

It wont make a scrap of difference - the results are effectively now 'locked'.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:19 pm 
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RickM wrote:
Ev0lutionz wrote:
Someone submit this to the FIA please?

It wont make a scrap of difference - the results are effectively now 'locked'.



Whoah damn :( Felt so gutted for Fred. He should rightly be the WDC.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:22 pm 
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So from when I can gather Vettel fans think breaking the rules is ok and everyone else agrees that in hindsight Vettel probably should have been penalised.

The point is it was an illegal overtake. Plain and simple. The STR didn't have car problems, it was mearly lifting in a yellow zone and Vettel should have done the same but in the heat of the moment and probably still full of rage after lap 1 he didn't. He made a mistake and luckily for him he got away with it. But rules are rules and in future I'd like the FIA and FOM not to miss such things in the heat of a championship battle. That's all.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:22 pm 
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If Vettel was let through then there surely should have been some kind of investigation into JEV letting someone through under a yellow or not. I'm not 100% on the rules but maybe there should be a punishment for him doing that.

There should have been some kind of investigation whether he backed off or not because there was a pass under a yellow for sure, instead it seems to have just been ignored. It may seem petty but if this is something he should have been punished for then a post-race penalty should apply and because they finished so close it would surely give Alonso the title.

This isn't something like a crash where you need to decide who to blame, there was definitely a pass under the yellow and if JEV let him through under the yellow then there is definitely foul play because he clearly didn't have a problem with his car and a driver can't decide it's suddenly okay to overtake under a yellow because the car in front has eased off more than they want to.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:22 pm 
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I thought, based on discussion from Oz 2009, that if a car infront slows a lot or goes off track that it was okay?

I mean there, for Seb to slow would probably have been more wreckless than just to go past. The next guy has to slow and the next, and soon you get someone coming along and smashing them or something.

Hilarious as it would be for the FiA to have to go to News outlets and tell then they cocked up and are taking the championship over to another team, I don't think they'd have punished that at all - let alone now.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:23 pm 
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The FIA has GPS data. They don't need the world feed to show them what's happening.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:26 pm 
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Very interesting video. Evidence is there but the FIA wont do anything about it because they already officially called the season over.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:36 pm 
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Vettel is champion and that's that... but:

1. If a driver has to overtake under yellows because the car in front braked hard, why should he not give the place back? He may be justified in taking the place but he is not justified in keeping it.

2. If that move were made on a non-Red Bull team they'd have protested immediately. Which begs the question, would RBR have felt obliged to hand back the place if they knew the alternative was an almost certain penalty later in the race?

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:36 pm 
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Wow the sweet scent of bias is overwhelming in this thread. It looks to be a clear cut case and while I don't think the result should be changed in any way, or even think it would definitely have changed Sundays result if picked up and acted on, how anybody can argue it's legal and maintain a straight face is beyond me.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:49 pm 
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Bias? You guys don't read. Or comprehend. Show me who in this thread has said it wasn't illegal?

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:55 pm 
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Yep... Good video. Didn't know about that "incident". He should have been penalized but got off lucky.
Vettel The Yellow Flag Champ.
Congratulations.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:56 pm 
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It's a non issue because there is a green flag before the pass, it's just there is no green board there but there is a flag post with green flag, that is waved instead of the yellow flag at the exit of the pit lane in lap 3. Here is the evidence (from another well known F1 forum):

Yellow flag when the leaders pass the pit exit

Image

GREEN flag when Vettle passes the pit exit after the Toro Rosso. So the overtake was under GREEN flag, non issue

Image

EDIT: here is the green flag from Vettel's onboard video before passing the Torro Rosso:

Image

/thread


Last edited by superuser on Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:56 pm 
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Also check out from 11.51 on the video - There's a green light at the end of the straight, just as Vettel passes the TR.


Last edited by Sevenfest on Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:56 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
Bias? You guys don't read. Or comprehend. Show me who in this thread has said it wasn't illegal?


My mistake then, you agree it was illegal but that it shouldn't have been penalised because the TR backed off slightly? And you would be making this argument for any other driver than Vettel? I think not.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:59 pm 
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Hmm... That's very borderline.

It's all well and good saying 'Vettel should slow' but nobody really slows nowadays under normal yellow flags. I think the key here is to see how much Vergne dropped away from Ricciardo in front of him. If it's clear that Vergne lifted off, I'd probably have to give Vettel the benefit of the doubt and assume Vergne let him through. Perhaps Vettel should've taken initiative and given the place back, like he did in Abu Dhabi when he passed Grosjean outside the white line. That brings me to Balibari's point - If Vettel that pass hadn't been made on a Toro Rosso or Webber, maybe Red Bull would've handed the place back.

If it's true that the stewards missed this though, then I'm disappointed. All incidents need to be looked at.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:02 pm 
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superuser wrote:
It's a non issue because there is a green flag before the pass, it's just there is no green board there but there is a flag post with green flag, that is waved instead of the yellow flag at the exit of the pit lane in lap 3. Here is the evidence (from another well known F1 forum):

Yellow flag when the leaders pass the pit exit...

GREEN flag when Vettle passes the pit exit after the Toro Rosso. So the overtake was under GREEN flag, non issue...

/thread


Very, very interesting. Something not noticed in the video. This could've been RBR's defence if there was an investigation.

For those saying 'there was a green light at the end of the straight' - Yes there was, but you can't overtake until AFTER you pass a green light.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:04 pm 
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Apparently teams have until the 30th of November to appeal any race classifications. A 20 second time penalty would see Alonso win the championship by 1 point if a penalty was to be incurred. I think if the FIA sees this, some good will come out of it regardless. Either Vettel will be deprived of the championship that in all fairness, he won unfairly, or something will be done about a 'B team' as people call it. I haven't paid much attention to the carrying on about STR, but now I see that it's a big problem if you're a team that isn't Red Bull.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:04 pm 
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benmc wrote:
superuser wrote:
It's a non issue because there is a green flag before the pass, it's just there is no green board there but there is a flag post with green flag, that is waved instead of the yellow flag at the exit of the pit lane in lap 3. Here is the evidence (from another well known F1 forum):

Yellow flag when the leaders pass the pit exit...

GREEN flag when Vettle passes the pit exit after the Toro Rosso. So the overtake was under GREEN flag, non issue...

/thread


Very, very interesting. Something not noticed in the video. This could've been RBR's defence if there was an investigation.

For those saying 'there was a green light at the end of the straight' - Yes there was, but you can't overtake until AFTER you pass a green light.

I was just about to say that.

The green flag was missed by everyone but appears crucial.

Still the FIA should have at least investigated the incident for clarity if anything else.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:05 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
Bias? You guys don't read. Or comprehend. Show me who in this thread has said it wasn't illegal?

Answering someone elses question, but...

I'm not trying to debate the semantic difference in saying something is legal and suggesting something should go unpunished. But one could suggest that saying, 'If the driver you are "overtaking" is clearly letting you go/getting out of the way then what can you do?' is being a bit willfully stubborn. Obviously you can let him back past. To discount that option gives the impression of bias, whether there or not.

But, once again, it's starting to look like this might be another false alarm. For what it's worth I care very little who won, I care very much they did it fairly and without leaving a nasty taste in the mouth.

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Last edited by Balibari on Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:06 pm 
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Misinformed wrote:
Apparently teams have until the 30th of November to appeal any race classifications. A 20 second time penalty would see Alonso win the championship by 1 point if a penalty was to be incurred. I think if the FIA sees this, some good will come out of it regardless. Either Vettel will be deprived of the championship that in all fairness, he won unfairly, or something will be done about a 'B team' as people call it. I haven't paid much attention to the carrying on about STR, but now I see that it's a big problem if you're a team that isn't Red Bull.

The green flag pointed out would seem the move was legal. The video missed it.

Even if it was illegal they won't do anything about it now. No one wants to see a WDC won in court.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:07 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:09 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
Still the FIA should have at least investigated the incident for clarity if anything else.


Who says they didn't? They are not obliged to publish every investigation. We are informed about the more interesting ones but it's not mandatory. If they did, they are right to not publish it because it would seem that every move of Vettel were investigated thoroughly while Alonso was "gifted" (at least that was the public perception) a safety car and problematic penalty for Hulkenberg.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:12 pm 
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I don't think the FIA would miss anything like that, after seeing some behind the scenes pre race shows, I was under the assumption that each car has FIA eyes and ears watching and listening at all times.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:13 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
Misinformed wrote:
Apparently teams have until the 30th of November to appeal any race classifications. A 20 second time penalty would see Alonso win the championship by 1 point if a penalty was to be incurred. I think if the FIA sees this, some good will come out of it regardless. Either Vettel will be deprived of the championship that in all fairness, he won unfairly, or something will be done about a 'B team' as people call it. I haven't paid much attention to the carrying on about STR, but now I see that it's a big problem if you're a team that isn't Red Bull.

The green flag pointed out would seem the move was legal. The video missed it.

Even if it was illegal they won't do anything about it now. No one wants to see a WDC won in court.

I'm surprised I haven't seen the 2007 fuel irregularities debate dredged up, presumably I've missed it. That appeared to be a pretty open and shut case with the Williams' (and a couple others I think) clearly outside the rules on fuel temperature. IIRC exclusion was the 'correct' penalty, and that would have handed Hamilton the title.

I agree the courts are not where these things should be settled, but it makes me wonder. Is it feasible that teams (who aren't involved) could go into a title showdown event taking rather more risks with car legality than they would normally? They've almost got a get out of jail free card for anything that can't be detected until after the race.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:20 pm 
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superuser wrote:

GREEN flag when Vettle passes the pit exit after the Toro Rosso. So the overtake was under GREEN flag, non issue

Image

/thread

It's still a yellow flag zone, as you can see on Vettel's dash.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:24 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
Misinformed wrote:
Apparently teams have until the 30th of November to appeal any race classifications. A 20 second time penalty would see Alonso win the championship by 1 point if a penalty was to be incurred. I think if the FIA sees this, some good will come out of it regardless. Either Vettel will be deprived of the championship that in all fairness, he won unfairly, or something will be done about a 'B team' as people call it. I haven't paid much attention to the carrying on about STR, but now I see that it's a big problem if you're a team that isn't Red Bull.

The green flag pointed out would seem the move was legal. The video missed it.

Even if it was illegal they won't do anything about it now. No one wants to see a WDC won in court.

To be a little tongue-in-cheek about it, I wouldn't want to see it won in court, but I sure wouldn't mind reading about it. ;)
This is a little off-topic, but I sure wouldn't mind seeing Marko do something a little Briatore-esque to get himself banned from F1 for a few years. That could rid us of the STR problems.. potentially.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:25 pm 
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Misinformed wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
Misinformed wrote:
Apparently teams have until the 30th of November to appeal any race classifications. A 20 second time penalty would see Alonso win the championship by 1 point if a penalty was to be incurred. I think if the FIA sees this, some good will come out of it regardless. Either Vettel will be deprived of the championship that in all fairness, he won unfairly, or something will be done about a 'B team' as people call it. I haven't paid much attention to the carrying on about STR, but now I see that it's a big problem if you're a team that isn't Red Bull.

The green flag pointed out would seem the move was legal. The video missed it.

Even if it was illegal they won't do anything about it now. No one wants to see a WDC won in court.

To be a little tongue-in-cheek about it, I wouldn't want to see it won in court, but I sure wouldn't mind reading about it. ;)
This is a little off-topic, but I sure wouldn't mind seeing Marko do something a little Briatore-esque to get himself banned from F1 for a few years. That could rid us of the STR problems.. potentially.

Don't start fueling my imagination.
That would be too excellent :D


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