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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:21 pm 
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Christ. THERE IS NO REASON WHY THAT MARSHALL WOULD HAVE BEEN TOLD TO SHOW A YELLOW FLAG. THAT SECTION OF TRACK WAS FREE FROM "DANGER". I have never even seen a marshal show the wrong flag, not even at the club level. There is more than one person at each station. Its unlikely that 2, 3 or even sometimes 4 people will all have heard the wrong color on the radio. I have flagged before, and was required to confirm back to race control the color I heard. Its extremely unlikely that this is a case of the wrong flag being shown, and even if it were, it doesn't change anything at all.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:22 pm 
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Crazy_Ivan wrote:
Jeeeeezzzzoooooooooooooo

Yeah I think people are extracting the urine now.

I'm having a "no hope for the human race" type moment now.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:23 pm 
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Saorsa wrote:
Just been thinking about this marshall.

This marshall was the waving the green flag, fair enough.
However, The same marshall must have had his control box thingy set to yellow. Which in turn would've told Charlie/race control and the drivers dash.

So unfortunately for this marshall he is contradicting himself by giving out different information to different bodies at the same time. I doubt there's no FIA rule that covers this!

Bet it sucks to be this marshall at the moment.... I'm guessing that the FIA will need to interview this marshall and the outcome of this interview may well decide whos gets the title.

There could well be debris between the light panel and the manual flag. Alternatively, there could be marshals getting ready to use an exit point between the light panel and the manual post to assist in Maldonado's recovery.

Here's the key point: Having that board yellow and putting out a manual green flag is NOT a contradiction, even if it was unnecessary. It simply means that the drivers proceed with caution till they pass the manual flag point.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:24 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
Crazy_Ivan wrote:
Jeeeeezzzzoooooooooooooo

Yeah I think people are extracting the urine now.

I'm having a "no hope for the human race" type moment now.

Couldn't agree more


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:24 pm 
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lamo wrote:
No, the pit lane exit is controlled way before that by traffic lights and marshal post.
With that logic a car exiting the pits would be allowed to overtake but those already on track would not be able to.


Aye but the marshal tower really isn't that far down the pitlane it is in the pitlane, but I can't think of any reason he'd be waving a green flag? I'm looking at the regulations which say they do under a massive list of conditions but I can't put any of them into context of a race?

http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/rules ... 7/fia.html

It's at 40.8 but as I say I can't really imagine the situations they're on about, but they're attached to yellow flag situations so they seem relevant to it.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:28 pm 
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Just went to check out the youtube video but its been removed and got the following. :-(

"This video is no longer available due to a copyright claim by Formula One Management"


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:29 pm 
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Saorsa wrote:
Just went to check out the youtube video but its been removed and got the following. :-(

"This video is no longer available due to a copyright claim by Formula One Management"

Try http://blog.axisofoversteer.com/2012/11 ... losed.html


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:40 pm 
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Saorsa wrote:
So unfortunately for this marshall he is contradicting himself by giving out different information to different bodies at the same time.

em... simply no... he isn't... he is the 3rd part of 4 parts in the chain...
part 1: yellow board
part 2: yellow board
part 3: green flag
part 4: green board

the marshall is NOT responsible for the dash lights or the light boards. he just does what he is told to do... there is no light board above or beneath him... the marshall substitutes the light board or vice versa and whatever signal comes first (flag or board) counts ... the thing is that there is no way to tell the fixed, gps-equipped board that there is a marshall waiving a flag 350 meters in front of it so the map shows yellow to the defined board-position...

maybe we should ask the fia to incorporate every marshall-post into that graphic for next season...


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:42 pm 
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Saorsa wrote:
Just been thinking about this marshall.

This marshall was the waving the green flag, fair enough.
However, The same marshall must have had his control box thingy set to yellow. Which in turn would've told Charlie/race control and the drivers dash.

So unfortunately for this marshall he is contradicting himself by giving out different information to different bodies at the same time. I doubt there's no FIA rule that covers this!

Bet it sucks to be this marshall at the moment.... I'm guessing that the FIA will need to interview this marshall and the outcome of this interview may well decide whos gets the title.


His control box probably covers the next flag which is green! Vettel is in a green flag zone the moment he passes the marshal the next light he pases merely confirms that. Its not as if he came to a yellow light then a green flag then another yellow light! I honestly do not know how this can be hard for people to understand!


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:44 pm 
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Saorsa wrote:
Just been thinking about this marshall.

This marshall was the waving the green flag, fair enough.
However, The same marshall must have had his control box thingy set to yellow. Which in turn would've told Charlie/race control and the drivers dash.

So unfortunately for this marshall he is contradicting himself by giving out different information to different bodies at the same time. I doubt there's no FIA rule that covers this!

Bet it sucks to be this marshall at the moment.... I'm guessing that the FIA will need to interview this marshall and the outcome of this interview may well decide whos gets the title.


The Marshall was entirely correct, the danger zone was over so he waved green. The correct thing to do and what happens at every race. The dash board only works from the GPS sensors that coincide with the digital flag points. These can't be perfectly up to date at there are not that many digital flags hence the FIA stating marshall flags over rule them.

Ask yourself - What is the point of even having marshal with flags if the digital flags are all that matter?

As soon as the danger zone is clear the FIA want the race running as soon as possible, the earliest opportunity to do that was at the marshall post. The next flag indicator was also green. I really do not get what people are missing in this.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:45 pm 
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There is now a rather large ammount of people on the Interwebz who have now changed their tack to Vettel could not have noticed the Green flag and was therefore actually did as he pleased by still breaking the rules because he did not know it was green when he was over-taking and should essentially either now feel really bad or still be punished.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:46 pm 
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My god, this thread is the perfect example of why I made a conscious decision to drastically reduce my activity on this forum. Smashing your head against a brick wall doesn't quite cover it.

Seb passed JEV after he passed a green flag (a green flag that is for everyone on track, if someone is coming out of the pit lane while a car is coming along on track, that marshal does display a blue flag), and before he passed any other yellow flags/lights, even though the light board up the end of the straight is actually a green light.

That map only shows sector delineation that correlates to where the light boards are positioned, marshals' posts are more frequent. If you're not meant to follow their instructions, what's the point of them waiving flags?

And the dash lights also correlate to the positioning of the light boards, so don't change passing a manual indicator (waiving flag), regardless, officially they are irrelevant.

Long and short, Seb's done nothing wrong in this race.

Even the FIA, who admittedly are slightly less than reputable when it comes to such things, have said that there is no case to answer.

But it doesn't matter anyway. As someone mentioned a while ago, forever more ignorant people (for that read "most people who aren't hardcore fans") will, when discussing Vettel, insist "ah! But he didn't actually win that 3rd title".

Some well meaning person posted a youtube video clearing up issues raised by the TV, thought they'd found a genuine breach of the rules, but they got it wrong, like the TV had, they missed the crucial piece of evidence. The world and his wife jumped on this conspiracy theory bandwagon, Ferrari added a little touch to it, only a wee hint, but just enough to encourage the speculation. And that's all the majority of people will ever remember.

This thread shows that even some people who are big enough fans to use an F1 forum can't understand the facts of the situation, let alone the rest of the world. Shame.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:47 pm 
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phyz wrote:
Saorsa wrote:
Just went to check out the youtube video but its been removed and got the following. :-(

"This video is no longer available due to a copyright claim by Formula One Management"

Try http://blog.axisofoversteer.com/2012/11 ... losed.html


Thanks

But this has made things worse for me. Wanted to see the Vergne pass but the Marussia pass the lap before i found interesting due to the same marshall. Now thinking, what exactly is the marshall post for.... or there's been a breakdown in communication...

I'm starting to give myself a headache thinking about this so logging off


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:48 pm 
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Knowimagination wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
Crazy_Ivan wrote:
Jeeeeezzzzoooooooooooooo

Yeah I think people are extracting the urine now.

I'm having a "no hope for the human race" type moment now.

Couldn't agree more



To think that in this country Jurys are made up of random individuals who have to evaluate evidence and draw a conclusion.. :uhoh:

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:50 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Knowimagination wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
Crazy_Ivan wrote:
Jeeeeezzzzoooooooooooooo

Yeah I think people are extracting the urine now.

I'm having a "no hope for the human race" type moment now.

Couldn't agree more



To think that in this country Jurys are made up of random individuals who have to evaluate evidence and draw a conclusion.. :uhoh:

Oh man, you've really scared me now :(

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:51 pm 
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Saorsa wrote:
phyz wrote:
Saorsa wrote:
Just went to check out the youtube video but its been removed and got the following. :-(

"This video is no longer available due to a copyright claim by Formula One Management"

Try http://blog.axisofoversteer.com/2012/11 ... losed.html


Thanks

But this has made things worse for me. Wanted to see the Vergne pass but the Marussia pass the lap before i found interesting due to the same marshall. Now thinking, what exactly is the marshall post for.... or there's been a breakdown in communication...

I'm starting to give myself a headache thinking about this so logging off

It's pretty simple. Let me sort your headache out. What was the last flag/light panel that Vettel passed before he overtook? If it was green, we're good. And in both cases, it was indeed green!

That marshal post, like every other marshal post, displays a flag or operates a light panel to warn drivers if there is danger ahead or to give drivers the all clear once they have passed the danger.


Last edited by phyz on Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:51 pm 
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toilet wrote:
My god, this thread is the perfect example of why I made a conscious decision to drastically reduce my activity on this forum. Smashing your head against a brick wall doesn't quite cover it.

Seb passed JEV after he passed a green flag (a green flag that is for everyone on track, if someone is coming out of the pit lane while a car is coming along on track, that marshal does display a blue flag), and before he passed any other yellow flags/lights, even though the light board up the end of the straight is actually a green light.

That map only shows sector delineation that correlates to where the light boards are positioned, marshals' posts are more frequent. If you're not meant to follow their instructions, what's the point of them waiving flags?

And the dash lights also correlate to the positioning of the light boards, so don't change passing a manual indicator (waiving flag), regardless, officially they are irrelevant.

Long and short, Seb's done nothing wrong in this race.

Even the FIA, who admittedly are slightly less than reputable when it comes to such things, have said that there is no case to answer.

But it doesn't matter anyway. As someone mentioned a while ago, forever more ignorant people (for that read "most people who aren't hardcore fans") will, when discussing Vettel, insist "ah! But he didn't actually win that 3rd title".

Some well meaning person posted a youtube video clearing up issues raised by the TV, thought they'd found a genuine breach of the rules, but they got it wrong, like the TV had, they missed the crucial piece of evidence. The world and his wife jumped on this conspiracy theory bandwagon, Ferrari added a little touch to it, only a wee hint, but just enough to encourage the speculation. And that's all the majority of people will ever remember.

This thread shows that even some people who are big enough fans to use an F1 forum can't understand the facts of the situation, let alone the rest of the world. Shame.

wow... did you really work your way through the entire thread at once without ending up either drunk or killing innocent people? you have my sincere respect...


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:51 pm 
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Crazy_Ivan wrote:
There is now a rather large ammount of people on the Interwebz who have now changed their tack to Vettel could not have noticed the Green flag and was therefore actually did as he pleased by still breaking the rules because he did not know it was green when he was over-taking and should essentially either now feel really bad or still be punished.

Good thing the FIA rule book doesn't give a sh*t what people on the internet think.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:52 pm 
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Crazy_Ivan wrote:
There is now a rather large ammount of people on the Interwebz who have now changed their tack to Vettel could not have noticed the Green flag and was therefore actually did as he pleased by still breaking the rules because he did not know it was green when he was over-taking and should essentially either now feel really bad or still be punished.


:lol:

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:55 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Knowimagination wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
Crazy_Ivan wrote:
Jeeeeezzzzoooooooooooooo

Yeah I think people are extracting the urine now.

I'm having a "no hope for the human race" type moment now.

Couldn't agree more



To think that in this country Jurys are made up of random individuals who have to evaluate evidence and draw a conclusion.. :uhoh:


Fortunately the odds of getting 12 of the obvious nuts on the same jury are slim, otherwise it is scary.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:56 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Wouldn't it be great if somebody pulled a clip of Alonso overtaking under yellows. We love the drama, it is close season :-)


I've got incontravertible evidence of Alonso driving recklessly in a yellow flag zone if that interests you 8O

Brazil GP, Interlagos 2012 - Lap 5.....

Alonso, in 3rd place ahead of Hulk, locks up arriving at turn 1.
:!: Note the yellow light board - he does this in a yellow flag zone. :!:
Image

Due to his reckless driving in the yellow flag zone he runs very wide at turn 1.
Image
Luckily there were no marshalls there, but he would not have known that and clearly he did not slow down enough in the yellow flag zone.

As he rejoins the track you can see in the background a yellow light board just to the right of the marshall post, just to confirm that this all happens in a yellow flag zone. (Sorry the screencap is interlaced)
Image

Before anyone tries to claim that the light boards are constant, indicating a slippery surface, they are not. Both are flashing yellow lights indicating a yellow flag zone. Go check a race recording if possible :)

Alonso caught bang-to-rights driving dangerously in a yellow flag zone. How do I contact the FIA to point out this serious calumny and ensure he gets rightly penalized with 20 seconds added to his race time? :-P


Last edited by bod72 on Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:59 pm 
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Explains some of the odd 11-1 and 10-2's though.

Congratulations and respect to those going to the effort to clear it and make it clear.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:08 pm 
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I say, if this appeal for Ferrari proves a dead-end, there are other avenues to pursue. I say, they should even go back to 2010 and review the races of Kubica, Rosberg and Petrov in Abu Dhabi that year.

Also, one should review the paperwork submitted by Red Bull for the 2012 championships. If there is even a smudge of ink in the section where it says "Do not write in this space", surely that is grounds for disqualification!


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:11 pm 
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egnat69 wrote:
toilet wrote:
a small rant

wow... did you really work your way through the entire thread at once without ending up either drunk or killing innocent people? you have my sincere respect...

God, no. I'd have long since slit me throat if I'd done it in a oner. I may not post as much as I use to, but I still lurk lot. I've been following this since the 2nd or 3rd post, and posted myself a few pages ago. But, as was mentioned a moment ago, these people make up jurys too!

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:12 pm 
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Just for some relief.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:15 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Just for some relief.


I'm 45 mins from being done at the desk and ready to go take out my bewilderment at this thread at the gym.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:16 pm 
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Pickle267 wrote:
lamo wrote:
Pickle267 wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
No they are controlled by the GPS Marshaling System.


THIS! Would you like to see the screenshot from an FIA computer showing which section of the track was under yellow flags...

http://twitpic.com/bhg38g

DRAMA, YER BASTARDS!

edit: link fix!yer bastards


There is no case.

Why did you overtake in yellow flag zone?
Because I was shown green flag [view video footage]

Case closed.

The FIA has provided the driver with conflicting information (dash and flag post) but importantly the rule state that flag post overalls dash reading.


I bet that marshal is brickin' it also surely saying there's no case for Hulkenberg's penalty because he lost control and "Didn't mean too" still a penalty, still his fault. Vettel may have misinterpreted the flags, he probably didn't mean to but he still went against the rules. To quote every bouncer in the world "That's the rules mate!".

How exactly did he misinterpret a green flag?

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:17 pm 
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Pickle267 wrote:
lamo wrote:
Pickle267 wrote:
lamo wrote:
Pickle267 wrote:

THIS! Would you like to see the screenshot from an FIA computer showing which section of the track was under yellow flags...

http://twitpic.com/bhg38g

DRAMA, YER BASTARDS!

edit: link fix!yer bastards


There is no case.

Why did you overtake in yellow flag zone?
Because I was shown green flag [view video footage]

Case closed.

The FIA has provided the driver with conflicting information (dash and flag post) but importantly the rule state that flag post overalls dash reading.


I bet that marshal is brickin' it also surely saying there's no case for Hulkenberg's penalty because he lost control and "Didn't mean too" still a penalty, still his fault. Vettel may have misinterpreted the flags, he probably didn't mean to but he still went against the rules. To quote every bouncer in the world "That's the rules mate!".


He did not misinterpret anything. He was shown a waving green flag which means overtaking permitted.


I thought that was for the pitlane?

Sorry to sound harsh but that makes no friggin sense. So you're saying on the track you must slow down and not overtake but coming out of the pitlane you're allowed to go at full speed and overtake when rejoining the track. On colder tyres alone that sounds more dangerous. At that point they're no longer on the speed limiter either, so that's almost saying they can go faster than those already on track. Also, I always understood that due to localised conditions, and thus flags, they positioned a marshal at the pit exit so the drivers knew the conditions when rejoining (ie for all, not just them).

But as others have said, should we really bother repeating the same logic and reason when clearly people hear aren't paying attention.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:19 pm 
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bod72 wrote:
lamo wrote:
Wouldn't it be great if somebody pulled a clip of Alonso overtaking under yellows. We love the drama, it is close season :-)


I've got incontravertible evidence of Alonso driving recklessly in a yellow flag zone if that interests you 8O

Brazil GP, Interlagos 2012 - Lap 5.....

Alonso, in 3rd place ahead of Hulk, locks up arriving at turn 1.
:!: Note the yellow light board - he does this in a yellow flag zone. :!:
Image

Due to his reckless driving in the yellow flag zone he runs very wide at turn 1.
Image
Luckily there were no marshalls there, but he would not have known that and clearly he did not slow down enough in the yellow flag zone.

As he rejoins the track you can see in the background a yellow light board just to the right of the marshall post, just to confirm that this all happens in a yellow flag zone. (Sorry the screencap is interlaced)
Image

Before anyone tries to claim that the light boards are constant, indicating a slippery surface, they are not. Both are flashing yellow lights indicating a yellow flag zone. Go check a race recording if possible :)

Alonso caught bang-to-rights driving dangerously in a yellow flag zone. How do I contact the FIA to point out this serious calumny and ensure he gets rightly penalized with 20 seconds added to his race time? :-P

:thumbup: Just fire off a quick email to Red Bull.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:24 pm 
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scuderia_stevie wrote:
bod72 wrote:

Alonso caught bang-to-rights driving dangerously in a yellow flag zone. How do I contact the FIA to point out this serious calumny and ensure he gets rightly penalized with 20 seconds added to his race time? :-P

:thumbup: Just fire off a quick email to Red Bull.


Frankly I don't think they're bothered. I might inform Ferrari though, they seem to be up for some post-race appealing.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:25 pm 
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Take it from http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/bild ... how_item=2


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:28 pm 
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Saorsa wrote:


and....... :frown:


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:40 pm 
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Saorsa wrote:

I'm really hoping you're not doing this to take the piss but once again, that diagram only tells you which electronic light panels were showing what. A manual green flag cannot show up on that display.

Here's the situation: There is something (let's say debris) after the light panel at the exit of 3 but before the manual flag point on the left at the pit exit. So, the light panel at 3 turns yellow. This automatically means that the next light panel (which is before turn 4) shows green. Meanwhile, there is a manual flag after turn 2 which is showing yellow for the same piece of debris. The next manual flag post (the one at the pit exit) must therefore show green. This is the only combination which makes sense and that's what the marshals put out.

Light panels and manual flags are independent systems. Each system shows a yellow before a hazard and a green after the hazard. Depending on where the hazard is, you can figure out what colour should be shown. Yellow before the hazard, green after. You must slow down once you see a yellow (manual or light panel) and you're free to race once you see a green (manual or light panel). Here, the sequence is manual yellow flag - yellow light panel - hazard- manual green flag - green light panel.

There are some yellows before the sequence here but don't let that confuse you. Those are not relevant to the bit this thread is talking about. Therefore, the track is clear after the manual green flag at the pit exit.


Last edited by phyz on Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:46 pm 
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bod72 wrote:
scuderia_stevie wrote:
bod72 wrote:

Alonso caught bang-to-rights driving dangerously in a yellow flag zone. How do I contact the FIA to point out this serious calumny and ensure he gets rightly penalized with 20 seconds added to his race time? :-P

:thumbup: Just fire off a quick email to Red Bull.


Frankly I don't think they're bothered. I might inform Ferrari though, they seem to be up for some post-race appealing.

McLaren might be interested though... How many points did they come short 2nd in the constructors standings? :lol:


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:56 pm 
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egnat69 wrote:
bod72 wrote:
scuderia_stevie wrote:
bod72 wrote:

Alonso caught bang-to-rights driving dangerously in a yellow flag zone. How do I contact the FIA to point out this serious calumny and ensure he gets rightly penalized with 20 seconds added to his race time? :-P

:thumbup: Just fire off a quick email to Red Bull.


Frankly I don't think they're bothered. I might inform Ferrari though, they seem to be up for some post-race appealing.

McLaren might be interested though... How many points did they come short 2nd in the constructors standings? :lol:


I'd gladly help them out for 10% of the prize money they would gain :D


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:56 pm 
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What happens if the Marshall showing the flag was colour blind :lol:

Out of interest, is the one at the end of the pitlane the same one that was shown in the GIF? I thought they were two different posts.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:57 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:03 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
What happens if the Marshall showing the flag was colour blind :lol:

Out of interest, is the one at the end of the pitlane the same one that was shown in the GIF? I thought they were two different posts.


I'm sure I read somewhere that Sebastian is colour blind. Therefore he definately didn't see a green flag and thus delibarately undertook a dangerous overtake on JEV in what he knew was a yellow flag zone. QED he cheated even if the marshall was waving a green flag.


:uhoh:


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:03 pm 
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Can't believe this thread is still going on but glad to see that the title has changed.

I just spent the last 48 hours scrutinizing every driver's on-board footage, looking for any possible transgressions of the yellow flag zones. After tallying all of the penalties assigned, I've reached the following shocking result:

Vettel still ended up winning the championship!

The preceding fictional account was brought to you by:

Fed up with people who won't read or listen.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:13 pm 
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tootsie323 wrote:
egnat69 wrote:
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Ferrari. Logo - check
Brazil. Brazilian? - maybe.
Appeal. Mmm - check.
Uber..?


I Thinks we need this to calm everyone down!!!!!
:D


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