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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:41 pm 
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Eva09 wrote:
MclarenBullet wrote:
Look, Jenson is obviously a world class driver who can win the world championship next year but as he has said himself, he needs the car 100% to his liking.

Now Lewis has gone, he will have the car developed to his liking, he won't have a team mate infront of him in Quali and to be fair he does have a good chance nexy year.

Lewis is the faster driver and i without silly issues would have been in with a real shout of winning the title this year but it's happened, Jenson has built team around him and fair play he has managed 8 wins.

Wish them both good luck, maybe Lewis a bit more :-)

last comment in this thread i think!


Equally he won't have Hamilton around to learn from. They both learned from each other, and Button won't learn as much from Perez as he could from a driver like Hamilton.


How do you know that?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:52 pm 
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Hamilton 2 / Button 1

Hamilton Wins.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:02 pm 
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I will be like Seb Buemi in this thread, juuuuuust spectating....

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:03 pm 
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thought i could just add some fuel to the fire.

Code:
Total      
                                         JB   LH
Points                                  672   657
Wins                                      8   10
Fastest Laps                              6   9
Podiums                                  25   22
Outqualified                            15   43
Average starting position              5.94   4.36
Gap in qualifying                     0.211     -0.211
DNF                                      8   13
Average finish position              4.3416   3.7
Ahead when both finish                  13   24


Code:
Total Excluding 2012 as Team errors and reliability may deflect results      
   
                                         JB   LH
Points                                  484   467
Wins                                      5   6
Fastest Laps                              4   8
Podiums                                  19   15
Outqualified                            11   27
Average starting position              5.7    4.4
Gap in qualifying                     0.1795  -0.1795
DNF                                      4   7
Average finish position              3.7    3.375
Ahead when both finish                  10   17


Code:
Total Excluding 2011 as LH worst year            
   
                                         JB   LH
Points                                  402   430
Wins                                      5   7
Fastest Laps                              3   6
Podiums                                  13   16
Outqualified                            9   30
Average starting position              6.7    4.8
Gap in qualifying                     0.215  -0.215
DNF                                      6   10
Average finish position                 5    3.7
Ahead when both finish                  6   17


Code:
Total Excluding 2010 as JB settle in year                  
   
                                         JB   LH
Points                                  458   417
Wins                                      6   7
Fastest Laps                              5   4
Podiums                                  18   13
Outqualified                            10   29
Average starting position              5.5    3.9
Gap in qualifying                     0.2395  -0.2395
DNF                                      6   9
Average finish position                 4.3    4
Ahead when both finish                  10   14


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:09 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
Eva09 wrote:
Johnston wrote:

But goes to show, it ain't over 'til you see the flag.


We should still count Hamilton's provisional positions when judging his competence against Button. If he had another car failure in the hypothetical continued race then we are back to square one (Hamilton was unlucky) again. If somebody wanted to use the "it's not over until the flag" in Button's favour, they would have to prove that Hamilton was substantially more likely to bin it in the scenery whilst leading the race. Personally I don't think that's the case at all.


Provisional positions are just that Provisional.

The only ones that carry credence are the final results.

In most of Hamiltons dnfs there were something like 2/3rds race distance left. A Lot can happen in 2/3rds of a race.

Inc getting jumped at the restart after a safety car, getting a puncture, clipping a wall in the likes of Singapore lots of things can happen.


I still wait for proof that this is more likely to happen to Hamilton than Button.

In both cases, what happened to the guy who took over the lead? Vettel and Raikkonen in Singapore and Abu Dhabi, respectively.

Hint: "WAR!!! What is it good for? Axxxxxxxxx Nxxxxxx!!"


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:19 pm 
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Eva09 wrote:
MclarenBullet wrote:
Look, Jenson is obviously a world class driver who can win the world championship next year but as he has said himself, he needs the car 100% to his liking.

Now Lewis has gone, he will have the car developed to his liking, he won't have a team mate infront of him in Quali and to be fair he does have a good chance nexy year.

Lewis is the faster driver and i without silly issues would have been in with a real shout of winning the title this year but it's happened, Jenson has built team around him and fair play he has managed 8 wins.

Wish them both good luck, maybe Lewis a bit more :-)

last comment in this thread i think!


Equally he won't have Hamilton around to learn from. They both learned from each other, and Button won't learn as much from Perez as he could from a driver like Hamilton.

To be fair, there's probably not a lot left for Button to learn. He's probably learnt as much as he's going to, he's nearing the end of his career. It'll just be a case of learning a new car, which he'd have to do anyway, with or without St Lewis.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:32 pm 
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If you think that Button has been the better driver than Hamilton over their time together in McLaren, then you surely think that Button is a better Formula 1 driver than Hamilton.

How many actually think that Button is a better F1 driver than Hamilton?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:36 pm 
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FormulaFun wrote:
If you think that Button has been the better driver than Hamilton over their time together in McLaren, then you surely think that Button is a better Formula 1 driver than Hamilton.

How many actually think that Button is a better F1 driver than Hamilton?


I dont think it's as simple as that with anyone. You cant say 'X is a better driver than Y' - it just doesnt work. Each driver is better or worse at different locations, different conditions, different setups, etc.

It's just impossible to say outright that one is better than the other when they are so closely matched.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:37 pm 
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FormulaFun wrote:
If you think that Button has been the better driver than Hamilton over their time together in McLaren, then you surely think that Button is a better Formula 1 driver than Hamilton.

How many actually think that Button is a better F1 driver than Hamilton?

Its only that straight forward in a certain kind of fans mind. Its not as straight forward as Lewis just being better. He has his flaws too, and when they manifest themselves, they are ugly.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:38 pm 
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Don't shoot me but this is analysis conducted by a known HamLover!

And it's giving plenty of other HamLovers chance to read is and touch themselves in a pleasurable way...


I'm just gonna avert my eyes lol

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:42 pm 
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jammin78 wrote:
This thread could go on for a while. At the end of the day, they're both evenly matched. You could say Hamilton should be 50-75 points higher, with much better stats if his McLaren hadn't given up, been underfuelled etc. But Button had problems too and would've had a podium at Monza, and some other pit stop issues which would've cost him a few points. I still think Hamilton has outclassed Button overall, and the stats don't show it, but stats are cold hard facts. That's my opinion.

Just think of it this way... when you want to see who did better, just choose who you prefer and choose the stat which fits your opinion :)


Now this is where the root of the fun lies, according to the diehards there shouldn't be any way, shape or form JB could match the Hamster, no statistic would show that ffs, pah! (JB's not fit to inflate Lewis's tyres/effin' no grip etc) let alone BEAT the Messiah, but beat him he did, that can be demonstated by the points tally over their 3 year match up together, they raced each other for 3 years and results are clear for all to see. Enter the tinfoils, the ones that insult everyones intelligence with their bizarre conspiracy bollocks and furious wah wah wah but but but if if if point adjusting twattery, the championships points tally is their kryptonite and thus requires relentless ramming up the collective jacksy.

Championship :
Overall points: Hamilton 657 / Button 672.. 'ave it.. :lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:48 pm 
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The two stats that I think matter are total points and number of seasons won h2h.

Both have won one each.

Here is the thing, Jenson was better in 2011 and the points reflected it but Lewis was better than Jenson in 2012 and the points do not reflect it as much as they should.

Two races were he was winning by miles he retired due to car failure, and the crash with Hulky on Sunday were he would have least got a podium. Romain ramming him of as well.

Jenson did have a run in with the Kobayashi and retired from second in one race, but he was far luckier. The points gap should have been a lot more to be fair.

In 2012, Lewis for me proved to be the better driver. I think he was better in 2012 than any other driver on the grid other than maybe Alonso.

I like Jenson and he is very good, and does some things better than Lewis, but as of now I think it is pretty clear Lewis is better all round. His qualifying and speed see to that.

Its just my view, I am not ashamed to say I am a big Lewis fan and their maybe some bias in my opinion, but I will stick to it because I can only give my view.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:56 pm 
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SilverstoneRegular wrote:
Don't shoot me but this is analysis conducted by a known HamLover!


Who are you. Joe McCarthy?

Perhaps you could name a few top F1-journos who don't rate Hamilton as one of the top three drivers on the grid today? Joe Saward named him as one of the "top two drivers in F1". Adam Cooper has said similar and so has Peter Windsor. F1 teams rate him highly too (which is why Merc are paying him £19.4m, vs Button's £12m).


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:04 pm 
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Lojik wrote:
Balibari wrote:
infi24r wrote:
Hamilton had a few crashes from key positions in 2010 that took him out of the title, yet, he was still in the hunt at the last race.

In 2011 he was involved in stupid crashes yes, it was his worst season and Button and him looked close.

In 2012 Hamilton is back to his best form, arguably better than ever before, he has lost as many as 4 wins (Spain, Singapore, Abu Dhabi, Brazil) as well as had numerous other problems. He was better than even Alonso this year imo.

I agree with that actually, though before the USGP I would have given it to Alonso.

Hamilton's such a difficult driver to get your head around though, I really can't define how good I think he is. I've loved Button for years but I've never thought him genuinely top drawer if I'm honest. Ultimately it seems to me Hamilton has been faster the vast majority of the time since they've been teammates, but those stats are pretty compelling. There's a kind of similar dynamic at Lotus, with Grosjean seeming to have the legs on Kimi for much of the year... but just look at the numbers!


The Grosjean comparison is probably accurate for 2011, but I do think the overall stats are skewed a little by what has happened this year. I know playing the "If" game is mostly a waste of time, but the large number of points Hamilton lost in 2012 through no fault of his own is extraordinary. I think it would be fair to say at least that Hamilton hasn't received an appropriate stat reward for his performance this year.

Either way I think it's also fair to say that Button has generally compared favourably with Hamilton, especially in 2010 & 2011 and that there perhaps isn't quite the vast gulf between them that many, myself included, expected at the beginning of 2010.

I think the 'if game' is not only perfectly justified but essential if you want to form a genuinely accurate impression of an F1 scenario. Hamilton's a good example. As you say, his stats don't reflect his performance this year, largely due to misfortune. To say that it doesn't mean you must be a fanboy or think he deserved the title, or even like him! But if you want to develop an accurate impression of his performance this year you have to consider what might have been if not for misfortune. For example if you retire from the lead five times through no fault of your own, and don't win all season, what level does that put you on when assessing relative ability? Are you on a performance par with those who won nothing, or are you really on a par with those who won a few races? I'll always remember a forumer saying Stirling Moss was rubbish cos he never won the WDC. x( Look past the numbers at the performance.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:06 pm 
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SilverstoneRegular wrote:
Don't shoot me but this is analysis conducted by a known HamLover!

And it's giving plenty of other HamLovers chance to read is and touch themselves in a pleasurable way...


I'm just gonna avert my eyes lol


Wait... What?
Zedd is a 'known Hamilton lover'?

Yikes. Now I've seen everything.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:09 pm 
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Eva09 wrote:
Johnston wrote:
Eva09 wrote:
Johnston wrote:

But goes to show, it ain't over 'til you see the flag.


We should still count Hamilton's provisional positions when judging his competence against Button. If he had another car failure in the hypothetical continued race then we are back to square one (Hamilton was unlucky) again. If somebody wanted to use the "it's not over until the flag" in Button's favour, they would have to prove that Hamilton was substantially more likely to bin it in the scenery whilst leading the race. Personally I don't think that's the case at all.


Provisional positions are just that Provisional.

The only ones that carry credence are the final results.

In most of Hamiltons dnfs there were something like 2/3rds race distance left. A Lot can happen in 2/3rds of a race.

Inc getting jumped at the restart after a safety car, getting a puncture, clipping a wall in the likes of Singapore lots of things can happen.


I still wait for proof that this is more likely to happen to Hamilton than Button.

In both cases, what happened to the guy who took over the lead? Vettel and Raikkonen in Singapore and Abu Dhabi, respectively.

Hint: "WAR!!! What is it good for? Axxxxxxxxx Nxxxxxx!!"


And the flip side is where is the proof Hamilton would have finished where he was when he got the gremlins?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:12 pm 
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Seanie wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
If you think that Button has been the better driver than Hamilton over their time together in McLaren, then you surely think that Button is a better Formula 1 driver than Hamilton.

How many actually think that Button is a better F1 driver than Hamilton?

Its only that straight forward in a certain kind of fans mind. Its not as straight forward as Lewis just being better. He has his flaws too, and when they manifest themselves, they are ugly.


Look Seanie, stop with the snide comments about Hamilton fans, you always bring it up, it really incorrect because all drivers have 'fanboys'.

no doubt Hamilton has his flaws, never said he doesn't, 2011 was an awful year for him, as i've said many times, and i've never tried to take Button's victory away from him in 2011 as he drive fantastically. Button also has his flaws, 2012 was an awful year for him as well. It's just that Button's flaws are more fundamental, i say "if you think Button has beaten Hamilton over the 3 years then you think he's better than Hamilton" because this is the first time Button has been in a solid team with a solid team mate and given us a proper look at his ability, so i assume if you think he's beaten Hamilton over the years, then you'd think he's better than Hamilton. Why is that an outrageous claim? That is generally one of the key aspects we use to determine driver capability, is it not?


Last edited by FormulaFun on Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:12 pm 
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sennafan24 wrote:
Here is the thing, Jenson was better in 2011 and the points reflected it but Lewis was better than Jenson in 2012 and the points do not reflect it as much as they should.




Well if the argument is the points don't reflect it in 2012 because of car failure etc etc.

Well isn't the same true for 2011 as Button had just 2 retirements, both 100% non fault, one pit stop error and 1 Mechanical.

So playing by equal rules the 2011 points should be greater.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:13 pm 
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I never doubted that Hamilton is faster than Button, out qualifying him 75% of the time. But the statistic that I find interesting is that when they have both finished that drops to 65%


Faster qualifying time: Hamilton 44 / Button 14
Ahead in two-car finish: Hamilton 24 / Button 13

It's possible that he only once was passed by his teammate to account for this, having not checked every race, but I think that answer unlikely. And if you're at the front it's easier to stay there (as evidenced by the Red Bull strategy), so there must be a reason for Hamilton to lose the advantage.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:14 pm 
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SilverstoneRegular wrote:
Don't shoot me but this is analysis conducted by a known HamLover!

And it's giving plenty of other HamLovers chance to read is and touch themselves in a pleasurable way...


I'm just gonna avert my eyes lol


ahahahhahahaha Zedd is a known 'HamLover'?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:16 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
sennafan24 wrote:
Here is the thing, Jenson was better in 2011 and the points reflected it but Lewis was better than Jenson in 2012 and the points do not reflect it as much as they should.




Well if the argument is the points don't reflect it in 2012 because of car failure etc etc.

Well isn't the same true for 2011 as Button had just 2 retirements, both 100% non fault, one pit stop error and 1 Mechanical.

So playing by equal rules the 2011 points should be greater.


If you like yeah.

But 2011 is still a fairer reflection of how well drivers performed in terms of points than 2012 is. Plus Lewis gearbox went once in 2011, so Jenson had only one more stroke of bad luck. Lewis had a lot more this year.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:17 pm 
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How do you feel about eggs, Zedd?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:21 pm 
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bbobeckyj wrote:
I never doubted that Hamilton is faster than Button, out qualifying him 75% of the time. But the statistic that I find interesting is that when they have both finished that drops to 65%


Faster qualifying time: Hamilton 44 / Button 14
Ahead in two-car finish: Hamilton 24 / Button 13

It's possible that he only once was passed by his teammate to account for this, having not checked every race, but I think that answer unlikely. And if you're at the front it's easier to stay there (as evidenced by the Red Bull strategy), so there must be a reason for Hamilton to lose the advantage.

Hamilton excels in quali, Button excels in racecraft. Because Hamilton's racecraft is better than Button's qualifying, you get those numbers... I think.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:29 pm 
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Its an injustice that Jenson only finished two points behind Lewis this season. Yes Jenson was much better in 2011 but Lewis was equally as bad. Lewis has wiped the floor of Jenson in 2012, and to the people who say he only beat him by two points, clearly don't watch F1 but look at the table thinking that tells the story.

Lewis out qualified Jenson 17-3 that's embarrassing in the same car and had 6 DNF'S to Jenson's 4. 3 of which were from the lead.
Jenson managed to pick up 102 points when Lewis DNF and Lewis managed to pick up 40 when Jenson DNF. So if we take away those points in the standings to even out the DNF's Lewis would be on 150 Jenson on 86 that's a 64 point difference. But if Lewis was able to get those wins from when he was in the lead that would of been 75 points and Jenson would of picked up 40 instead of 52 so lets add them back on, That's Lewis 225 and Jenson 126 and before you think i'm being unfair none of Jenson's DNF'S where from the lead.

And then take into consideration Lewis was on pole in Spain by nearly half a second, but had to start from the back and still finished above Jenson and probably would of won that weekend, had he started first. So that's 21 more points to add on from the 4 he got for 8th. I make that Lewis 246 points Jenson 126 points Stop being blind Jenson fans he needs to step it up BIG TIME in 2013

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:30 pm 
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fifthace wrote:
SilverstoneRegular wrote:
Don't shoot me but this is analysis conducted by a known HamLover!


Who are you. Joe McCarthy?

Perhaps you could name a few top F1-journos who don't rate Hamilton as one of the top three drivers on the grid today? Joe Saward named him as one of the "top two drivers in F1". Adam Cooper has said similar and so has Peter Windsor. F1 teams rate him highly too (which is why Merc are paying him £19.4m, vs Button's £12m).


Just pointing out that James Allen is slated over these forums for his fanboy-ism of Lewis. Also on the payment he's receiving

A: McLaren originally didn't want to pay him what he was earning and
B: I thought it wasn't about the money?


I think he's in the top tier but it doesn't stop me from spotting the holes in people's logic

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:32 pm 
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SilverstoneRegular wrote:
fifthace wrote:
SilverstoneRegular wrote:
Don't shoot me but this is analysis conducted by a known HamLover!


Who are you. Joe McCarthy?

Perhaps you could name a few top F1-journos who don't rate Hamilton as one of the top three drivers on the grid today? Joe Saward named him as one of the "top two drivers in F1". Adam Cooper has said similar and so has Peter Windsor. F1 teams rate him highly too (which is why Merc are paying him £19.4m, vs Button's £12m).


Just pointing out that James Allen is slated over these forums for his fanboy-ism of Lewis. Also on the payment he's receiving

A: McLaren originally didn't want to pay him what he was earning and
B: I thought it wasn't about the money?


I think he's in the top tier but it doesn't stop me from spotting the holes in people's logic


Why does it matter to presents the stats? stats are stats, he cant just change them


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:34 pm 
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At the moment, as it stands Jenson won. He came to "Lewis' Team" to be taught a lesson, and be his whipping boy... But he managed to stay close enough for Lewis to look else where for a drive.

Who knows it could turn out that Jenson did Lewis a favour taking over McLaren, throwing him into the arms of Mercedes. Time will tell...

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:35 pm 
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Balibari wrote:
:lol:

Read and enjoyed JA's piece this morning, thought of posting it here, then decided it would be madness.

Save time by copying and pasting:

Quote:
10 wins to 8 - Hamilton's miles better than Button, it's so obvious! Wins are all that matter.

Quote:
672 points to 657 - Button's miles better than Hamilton, it's so obvious! Points are all that matter.


Ask yourselves which of those two records you'd prefer. Is it the one your favourite drivers has?


Actually, I'd prefer the 'ahead when both finished' stat. Hamilton has finished ahead in around 65% of races, which I think is a clear indication that Hamilton has been the better of the two. Wins are harder to analyse because no matter how that win was gained, whether it was earned by a spectacular drive or inherited through good fortune, they are all of equal worth statistically. The same goes for points, but even more so.

That said, there's no doubt that Button has given Hamilton a stern test and proven that not only is he one of the best drivers of his generation, but also a very fine World Champion, he's not just a driver who triumphed in a favourable situation as some thought.

Really, though, I was amazed that people ever doubted Button's ability to begin with. Rubens Barrichello was the best bechmark in F1 because he had established his ability relative to one of the best there ever was. Any driver who could beat Barrichello comfortably had to be a great driver. Button was never going to be thrashed by Hamilton. Apart from Button's poor season in 2012, things went pretty much as I expected between them. It's just shame that McLaren's inability to provide a reliable car and remain error-free this season cost Hamilton a legitimate shot at the title.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:39 pm 
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Jomox wrote:
Hamilton 2 / Button 1

Hamilton Wins.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:49 pm 
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SilverstoneRegular wrote:
fifthace wrote:
SilverstoneRegular wrote:
Don't shoot me but this is analysis conducted by a known HamLover!


Who are you. Joe McCarthy?

Perhaps you could name a few top F1-journos who don't rate Hamilton as one of the top three drivers on the grid today? Joe Saward named him as one of the "top two drivers in F1". Adam Cooper has said similar and so has Peter Windsor. F1 teams rate him highly too (which is why Merc are paying him £19.4m, vs Button's £12m).


Just pointing out that James Allen is slated over these forums for his fanboy-ism of Lewis. Also on the payment he's receiving

A: McLaren originally didn't want to pay him what he was earning and
B: I thought it wasn't about the money?


I think he's in the top tier but it doesn't stop me from spotting the holes in people's logic


A: Holes in what part of James Allen's stats logic?
B: F1 journos are usually better informed than the rest of us, so answer my question.
C: You're right, money is a side-show, especially since the marketing of drivers may not directly relate to their performance, but my point was those in the F1-business are also "HamLovers".
D: You sound like a homophobe.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:53 pm 
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Jomox wrote:
Hamilton 2 / Button 1

Hamilton Wins.


Championship :
Overall points: Senna2 657 / No-Grip 672.. :lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:58 pm 
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fifthace wrote:
SilverstoneRegular wrote:
fifthace wrote:
SilverstoneRegular wrote:
Don't shoot me but this is analysis conducted by a known HamLover!


Who are you. Joe McCarthy?

Perhaps you could name a few top F1-journos who don't rate Hamilton as one of the top three drivers on the grid today? Joe Saward named him as one of the "top two drivers in F1". Adam Cooper has said similar and so has Peter Windsor. F1 teams rate him highly too (which is why Merc are paying him £19.4m, vs Button's £12m).


Just pointing out that James Allen is slated over these forums for his fanboy-ism of Lewis. Also on the payment he's receiving

A: McLaren originally didn't want to pay him what he was earning and
B: I thought it wasn't about the money?


I think he's in the top tier but it doesn't stop me from spotting the holes in people's logic


A: Holes in what part of James Allen's stats logic?
B: F1 journos are usually better informed than the rest of us, so answer my question.
C: You're right, money is a side-show, especially since the marketing of drivers may not directly relate to their performance, but my point was those in the F1-business are also "HamLovers".
D: You sound like a homophobe.


Homophobe? Why do you link HamLover to be sexual in nature?! Freud would've loved to study you with that link!

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:04 pm 
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Emerson.F wrote:
Its an injustice that Jenson only finished two points behind Lewis this season. Yes Jenson was much better in 2011 but Lewis was equally as bad. Lewis has wiped the floor of Jenson in 2012, and to the people who say he only beat him by two points, clearly don't watch F1 but look at the table thinking that tells the story.

Lewis out qualified Jenson 17-3 that's embarrassing in the same car and had 6 DNF'S to Jenson's 4. 3 of which were from the lead.
Jenson managed to pick up 102 points when Lewis DNF and Lewis managed to pick up 40 when Jenson DNF. So if we take away those points in the standings to even out the DNF's Lewis would be on 150 Jenson on 86 that's a 64 point difference. But if Lewis was able to get those wins from when he was in the lead that would of been 75 points and Jenson would of picked up 40 instead of 52 so lets add them back on, That's Lewis 225 and Jenson 126 and before you think i'm being unfair none of Jenson's DNF'S where from the lead.

And then take into consideration Lewis was on pole in Spain by nearly half a second, but had to start from the back and still finished above Jenson and probably would of won that weekend, had he started first. So that's 21 more points to add on from the 4 he got for 8th. I make that Lewis 246 points Jenson 126 points Stop being blind Jenson fans he needs to step it up BIG TIME in 2013


Who says size doesn't matter? It's so much clearer now. ;)

Thank you

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:10 pm 
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lol what a shouting contest this thread is


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:11 pm 
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Balibari wrote:
Lojik wrote:
Balibari wrote:
infi24r wrote:
Hamilton had a few crashes from key positions in 2010 that took him out of the title, yet, he was still in the hunt at the last race.

In 2011 he was involved in stupid crashes yes, it was his worst season and Button and him looked close.

In 2012 Hamilton is back to his best form, arguably better than ever before, he has lost as many as 4 wins (Spain, Singapore, Abu Dhabi, Brazil) as well as had numerous other problems. He was better than even Alonso this year imo.

I agree with that actually, though before the USGP I would have given it to Alonso.

Hamilton's such a difficult driver to get your head around though, I really can't define how good I think he is. I've loved Button for years but I've never thought him genuinely top drawer if I'm honest. Ultimately it seems to me Hamilton has been faster the vast majority of the time since they've been teammates, but those stats are pretty compelling. There's a kind of similar dynamic at Lotus, with Grosjean seeming to have the legs on Kimi for much of the year... but just look at the numbers!


The Grosjean comparison is probably accurate for 2011, but I do think the overall stats are skewed a little by what has happened this year. I know playing the "If" game is mostly a waste of time, but the large number of points Hamilton lost in 2012 through no fault of his own is extraordinary. I think it would be fair to say at least that Hamilton hasn't received an appropriate stat reward for his performance this year.

Either way I think it's also fair to say that Button has generally compared favourably with Hamilton, especially in 2010 & 2011 and that there perhaps isn't quite the vast gulf between them that many, myself included, expected at the beginning of 2010.

I think the 'if game' is not only perfectly justified but essential if you want to form a genuinely accurate impression of an F1 scenario. Hamilton's a good example. As you say, his stats don't reflect his performance this year, largely due to misfortune. To say that it doesn't mean you must be a fanboy or think he deserved the title, or even like him! But if you want to develop an accurate impression of his performance this year you have to consider what might have been if not for misfortune. For example if you retire from the lead five times through no fault of your own, and don't win all season, what level does that put you on when assessing relative ability? Are you on a performance par with those who won nothing, or are you really on a par with those who won a few races? I'll always remember a forumer saying Stirling Moss was rubbish cos he never won the WDC. x( Look past the numbers at the performance.


I pretty much agree with you. I am just trying to tread extremely lightly and not be too provocative in a thread that has the potential to become the online forum equivalent of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. :)


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:12 pm 
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Inappropriate post removed.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:15 pm 
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It is such a shame that so many confuse 'faster' with 'better'. There is no doubt that Hamilton is faster than Button over one or two laps, he is also clearly more aggressive when overtaking and can wring-the-neck of a car when necessary, however the evidence is not so strong over stints, even less so over races.

Chris Amon was one of the fastest drivers of his generation but he never stood a chance of winning a world championship because wherever he went he was dogged by bad luck, his gearboxes broke, his engines broke, he got punctures, he ran out of fuel, he had electrical failures, his collisions resulted in DNFs etc. etc., all while his team mate's didn't.

Eventually it dawned on everyone, including himself, that it wasn't bad luck, it was the way he drove. He broke the gearbox, he broke the engine, he used up the fuel etc. Next season we will see whether the Mercedes breaks more often in Hamilton's hands than Rosberg's...

For example, would Button's suspension have broken had Hulkenberg done the same to him at Brazil, I suggest there's a chance that Button, like Prost, would have read the situation and conceded the spot and lived to fight again later in the race

Does anyone remember that Ronnie Peterson was faster than Mario Andretti in the same Lotus?

Finally, Hamilton's departure leaves McLaren with an extra $20,000,000 or so a year to spend on Button's car, does anybody think that will not fund a tenth or two improvement in lap times? Or in pit stop practice? Or in component reliability?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:16 pm 
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viariani wrote:
Jomox wrote:
Hamilton 2 / Button 1

Hamilton Wins.


Championship :
Overall points: Senna2 657 / No-Grip 672.. :lol: :lol:


Ad those 3 dnf where lewis was P1 and leading the race together with Catalunya being disq from Pole position and even then
ending up ahead of No grip. Thats about 95 undebateble points this year. he got Lucky on the final point score and you know it.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:17 pm 
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@fifthace I've answered these questions over and over in other threads.

Also accusing someone of trolling (whether rightly or wrongly) is against the rules of the forum

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:17 pm 
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Unfortunately I don't think Ron Dennis can say "but he should have won all these other races if we hadn't cocked it up for him!" when he's asking companies for money.

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