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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:18 pm 
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Mr-E wrote:
Emerson.F wrote:
Its an injustice that Jenson only finished two points behind Lewis this season. Yes Jenson was much better in 2011 but Lewis was equally as bad. Lewis has wiped the floor of Jenson in 2012, and to the people who say he only beat him by two points, clearly don't watch F1 but look at the table thinking that tells the story.

Lewis out qualified Jenson 17-3 that's embarrassing in the same car and had 6 DNF'S to Jenson's 4. 3 of which were from the lead.
Jenson managed to pick up 102 points when Lewis DNF and Lewis managed to pick up 40 when Jenson DNF. So if we take away those points in the standings to even out the DNF's Lewis would be on 150 Jenson on 86 that's a 64 point difference. But if Lewis was able to get those wins from when he was in the lead that would of been 75 points and Jenson would of picked up 40 instead of 52 so lets add them back on, That's Lewis 225 and Jenson 126 and before you think i'm being unfair none of Jenson's DNF'S where from the lead.

And then take into consideration Lewis was on pole in Spain by nearly half a second, but had to start from the back and still finished above Jenson and probably would of won that weekend, had he started first. So that's 21 more points to add on from the 4 he got for 8th. I make that Lewis 246 points Jenson 126 points Stop being blind Jenson fans he needs to step it up BIG TIME in 2013


Who says size doesn't matter? It's so much clearer now. ;)

Thank you


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Last edited by Emerson.F on Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:18 pm 
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Emerson.F wrote:
viariani wrote:
Jomox wrote:
Hamilton 2 / Button 1

Hamilton Wins.


Championship :
Overall points: Senna2 657 / No-Grip 672.. :lol: :lol:


Ad those 3 dnf where lewis was P1 and leading the race together with Catalunya being disq from Pole position and even then
ending up ahead of No grip. Thats about 95 undebateble points this year. he got Lucky on the final point score and you know it.


Undebatable? You don't earn points until you cross the finish line in that position and nobody knows what could happen over the remainder of the race

He could pick up a puncture an spin out!!!!!

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:20 pm 
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Fat Albert wrote:
It is such a shame that so many confuse 'faster' with 'better'. There is no doubt that Hamilton is faster than Button over one or two laps, he is also clearly more aggressive when overtaking and can wring-the-neck of a car when necessary, however the evidence is not so strong over stints, even less so over races.

Chris Amon was one of the fastest drivers of his generation but he never stood a chance of winning a world championship because wherever he went he was dogged by bad luck, his gearboxes broke, his engines broke, he got punctures, he ran out of fuel, he had electrical failures, his collisions resulted in DNFs etc. etc., all while his team mate's didn't.

Eventually it dawned on everyone, including himself, that it wasn't bad luck, it was the way he drove. He broke the gearbox, he broke the engine, he used up the fuel etc. Next season we will see whether the Mercedes breaks more often in Hamilton's hands than Rosberg's...

For example, would Button's suspension have broken had Hulkenberg done the same to him at Brazil, I suggest there's a chance that Button, like Prost, would have read the situation and conceded the spot and lived to fight again later in the race

Does anyone remember that Ronnie Peterson was faster than Mario Andretti in the same Lotus?

Finally, Hamilton's departure leaves McLaren with an extra $20,000,000 or so a year to spend on Button's car, does anybody think that will not fund a tenth or two improvement in lap times? Or in pit stop practice? Or in component reliability?

:thumbup: to all of that minus the last part. LH leaving doesn't automatically make his salary available for other things. You don't know the specifics of where that money came from.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:21 pm 
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Fat Albert wrote:
It is such a shame that so many confuse 'faster' with 'better'. There is no doubt that Hamilton is faster than Button over one or two laps, he is also clearly more aggressive when overtaking and can wring-the-neck of a car when necessary, however the evidence is not so strong over stints, even less so over races.

Chris Amon was one of the fastest drivers of his generation but he never stood a chance of winning a world championship because wherever he went he was dogged by bad luck, his gearboxes broke, his engines broke, he got punctures, he ran out of fuel, he had electrical failures, his collisions resulted in DNFs etc. etc., all while his team mate's didn't.

Eventually it dawned on everyone, including himself, that it wasn't bad luck, it was the way he drove. He broke the gearbox, he broke the engine, he used up the fuel etc. Next season we will see whether the Mercedes breaks more often in Hamilton's hands than Rosberg's...



Ooooh you might be onto something here, could explain why Vettel had 2 alternator failures and Webber only 1 ;)


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:25 pm 
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Emerson.F wrote:
viariani wrote:
Jomox wrote:
Hamilton 2 / Button 1

Hamilton Wins.


Championship :
Overall points: Senna2 657 / No-Grip 672.. :lol: :lol:


Ad those 3 dnf where lewis was P1 and leading the race together with Catalunya being disq from Pole position and even then
ending up ahead of No grip. Thats about 95 undebateble points this year. he got Lucky on the final point score and you know it.


Yeah yeah yeah, Twitmarsh put sand in his 'box too I suppose, woulda coulda shoulda, hypothetical chaff, counts for sweet FA, zzzzzztinfoil lol

Championship :
Overall points: Senna2 657 / No-Grip 672.. :lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:26 pm 
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Emerson.F wrote:
Mr-E wrote:
Emerson.F wrote:
Its an injustice that Jenson only finished two points behind Lewis this season. Yes Jenson was much better in 2011 but Lewis was equally as bad. Lewis has wiped the floor of Jenson in 2012, and to the people who say he only beat him by two points, clearly don't watch F1 but look at the table thinking that tells the story.

Lewis out qualified Jenson 17-3 that's embarrassing in the same car and had 6 DNF'S to Jenson's 4. 3 of which were from the lead.
Jenson managed to pick up 102 points when Lewis DNF and Lewis managed to pick up 40 when Jenson DNF. So if we take away those points in the standings to even out the DNF's Lewis would be on 150 Jenson on 86 that's a 64 point difference. But if Lewis was able to get those wins from when he was in the lead that would of been 75 points and Jenson would of picked up 40 instead of 52 so lets add them back on, That's Lewis 225 and Jenson 126 and before you think i'm being unfair none of Jenson's DNF'S where from the lead.

And then take into consideration Lewis was on pole in Spain by nearly half a second, but had to start from the back and still finished above Jenson and probably would of won that weekend, had he started first. So that's 21 more points to add on from the 4 he got for 8th. I make that Lewis 246 points Jenson 126 points Stop being blind Jenson fans he needs to step it up BIG TIME in 2013


Who says size doesn't matter? It's so much clearer now. ;)

Thank you


Thanks for qouting me. 8)

No thank you...


Now that on the other hand, makes no sense. :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:27 pm 
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Lojik wrote:
Ooooh you might be onto something here, could explain why Vettel had 2 alternator failures and Webber only 1 ;)
Nah, more likely to be the reduced electrical load from all those KERS failures :nod:

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:49 pm 
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Fat Albert wrote:
It is such a shame that so many confuse 'faster' with 'better'. There is no doubt that Hamilton is faster than Button over one or two laps, he is also clearly more aggressive when overtaking and can wring-the-neck of a car when necessary, however the evidence is not so strong over stints, even less so over races.

Chris Amon was one of the fastest drivers of his generation but he never stood a chance of winning a world championship because wherever he went he was dogged by bad luck, his gearboxes broke, his engines broke, he got punctures, he ran out of fuel, he had electrical failures, his collisions resulted in DNFs etc. etc., all while his team mate's didn't.

Eventually it dawned on everyone, including himself, that it wasn't bad luck, it was the way he drove. He broke the gearbox, he broke the engine, he used up the fuel etc. Next season we will see whether the Mercedes breaks more often in Hamilton's hands than Rosberg's...

For example, would Button's suspension have broken had Hulkenberg done the same to him at Brazil, I suggest there's a chance that Button, like Prost, would have read the situation and conceded the spot and lived to fight again later in the race

Does anyone remember that Ronnie Peterson was faster than Mario Andretti in the same Lotus?

Finally, Hamilton's departure leaves McLaren with an extra $20,000,000 or so a year to spend on Button's car, does anybody think that will not fund a tenth or two improvement in lap times? Or in pit stop practice? Or in component reliability?

You are wrong about Hülkenberg , what should Button have done different? There was absolutely nothing anyone could have done different.
About the failures, you are wrong, too, there was no single car failure a driver was responsible for. Can't remember a engine failure at Hamiltons car the last 3 years.

And the last argument has 0% substance, too , if you consider Mclaren offered Hamilton more money as ANY other driver on the grid to keep him. Do you think they would have done it, if they had thought, they will compensate Lewis loss with some extra money for the car?

Maybe you know more than the team principals & Jenson Button himself, who said Lewis is a huge loss for McLaren
Domenicaly said Mclaren loses a big asset, Horner said about the same.
If it was so easy to replace a fast and very talented driver, why do teams break their banks for top drivers like Alonso, Hamilton and probably Vettel ( if he once wants to leave). Why do they just not hire some cheaper driver and use the money for development?

One last question why was Button never a real WDC contender during his time at McLaren , but Lewis was 2010 & 2012?
Why is Lewis Hamilton despite 6 DNFsand all his "car breaking" still in front of Button in the end of 2012, despite he is not the "Better" driver( Like you try to suggest)?

I

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:58 pm 
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Whilst I must admit I expected Lewis to wipe the floor with Jenson, I have been proven wrong over the last three seasons. If I had to pick one for my F1 team though, I'd still go with Lewis all the way..

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:01 pm 
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LOOOL at all the button fans clinging to the points over 3 seasons.

Unless you win the championship, points mean nothing. At the end of the day Lewis beat Jenson in 2 out of 3 seasons, won more races(which according to Ron is more important than finishing 2nd in the contructors)

Lewis knows, Jenson knows and the whole of F1 knows Lewis came out on top and is the better of the two.

Not being a fan boy but there is a reason Jenson is made up at Lewis going and that is because he won't get destroyed in 2013 like he has this year.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:01 pm 
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Haribo wrote:
You are wrong about Hülkenberg , what should Button have done different? There was absolutely nothing anyone could have done different.
About the failures, you are wrong, too, there was no single car failure a driver was responsible for. Can't remember a engine failure at Hamiltons car the last 3 years.

And the last argument has 0% substance, too , if you consider Mclaren offered Hamilton more money as ANY other driver on the grid to keep him. Do you think they would have done it, if they had thought, they will compensate Lewis loss with some extra money for the car?

Maybe you know more than the team principals & Jenson Button himself, who said Lewis is a huge loss for McLaren
Domenicaly said Mclaren loses a big asset, Horner said about the same.
If it was so easy to replace a fast and very talented driver, why do teams break their banks for top drivers like Alonso, Hamilton and probably Vettel ( if he once wants to leave). Why do they just not hire some cheaper driver and use the money for development?

One last question why was Button never a real WDC contender during his time at McLaren , but Lewis was 2010 & 2012?
Why is Lewis Hamilton despite 6 DNFsand all his "car breaking" still in front of Button in the end of 2012, despite he is not the "Better" driver( Like you try to suggest)?

I


How do you know none were down to driving style? Engines aren't the only things that can take damage from driving style.

You can put two guys with polar opposite driving styles in identical cars. Both will set Very similar times. But for some reason one will have more failures. Silly things like being a little more aggressive over kerbs can break cars.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:03 pm 
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MclarenBullet wrote:
LOOOL at all the button fans clinging to the points over 3 seasons.

Unless you win the championship, points mean nothing. At the end of the day Lewis beat Jenson in 2 out of 3 seasons, won more races(which according to Ron is more important than finishing 2nd in the contructors)

Lewis knows, Jenson knows and the whole of F1 knows Lewis came out on top and is the better of the two.

Not being a fan boy but there is a reason Jenson is made up at Lewis going and that is because he won't get destroyed in 2013 like he has this year.



LOL all the Lewis fans clinging to the car failures LOL

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:07 pm 
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SilverstoneRegular wrote:
MclarenBullet wrote:
LOOOL at all the button fans clinging to the points over 3 seasons.

Unless you win the championship, points mean nothing. At the end of the day Lewis beat Jenson in 2 out of 3 seasons, won more races(which according to Ron is more important than finishing 2nd in the contructors)

Lewis knows, Jenson knows and the whole of F1 knows Lewis came out on top and is the better of the two.

Not being a fan boy but there is a reason Jenson is made up at Lewis going and that is because he won't get destroyed in 2013 like he has this year.



LOL all the Lewis fans clinging to the car failures LOL


I'm clinging to race wins,pole positions, qualifying,result when both finish a race aswell you know


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:10 pm 
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MclarenBullet wrote:
SilverstoneRegular wrote:
MclarenBullet wrote:
LOOOL at all the button fans clinging to the points over 3 seasons.

Unless you win the championship, points mean nothing. At the end of the day Lewis beat Jenson in 2 out of 3 seasons, won more races(which according to Ron is more important than finishing 2nd in the contructors)

Lewis knows, Jenson knows and the whole of F1 knows Lewis came out on top and is the better of the two.

Not being a fan boy but there is a reason Jenson is made up at Lewis going and that is because he won't get destroyed in 2013 like he has this year.



LOL all the Lewis fans clinging to the car failures LOL


I'm clinging to race wins,pole positions, qualifying,result when both finish a race aswell you know



Ah the old "when they both finished" line... Yeah legs ignore when Lewis crashed into Massa (repeatedly!)

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:11 pm 
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There’s another really important statistic missing, cost, reputedly, over the three years Button cost McLaren Mercedes $30m while Hamilton cost $70m!

So Hamilton cost $40m more and scored 15pts less!

Anyone with even the minimum understanding of business can understand that the numbers don’t add up!

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:13 pm 
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SilverstoneRegular wrote:
MclarenBullet wrote:
LOOOL at all the button fans clinging to the points over 3 seasons.

Unless you win the championship, points mean nothing. At the end of the day Lewis beat Jenson in 2 out of 3 seasons, won more races(which according to Ron is more important than finishing 2nd in the contructors)

Lewis knows, Jenson knows and the whole of F1 knows Lewis came out on top and is the better of the two.

Not being a fan boy but there is a reason Jenson is made up at Lewis going and that is because he won't get destroyed in 2013 like he has this year.



LOL all the Lewis fans clinging to the car failures LOL


Car breakages you mean, christ, this kid even managed to smash into his own jack in Valencia and break that!! :lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:20 pm 
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Fat Albert wrote:
There’s another really important statistic missing, cost, reputedly, over the three years Button cost McLaren Mercedes $30m while Hamilton cost $70m!

So Hamilton cost $40m more and scored 15pts less!

Anyone with even the minimum understanding of business can understand that the numbers don’t add up!



You've got a brilliant point!

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:21 pm 
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Fat Albert wrote:
There’s another really important statistic missing, cost, reputedly, over the three years Button cost McLaren Mercedes $30m while Hamilton cost $70m!

So Hamilton cost $40m more and scored 15pts less! Anyone with even the minimum understanding of business can understand that the numbers don’t add up!


Ooh my aching ribs!! Bargain!! :lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:22 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
Haribo wrote:
You are wrong about Hülkenberg , what should Button have done different? There was absolutely nothing anyone could have done different.
About the failures, you are wrong, too, there was no single car failure a driver was responsible for. Can't remember a engine failure at Hamiltons car the last 3 years.

And the last argument has 0% substance, too , if you consider Mclaren offered Hamilton more money as ANY other driver on the grid to keep him. Do you think they would have done it, if they had thought, they will compensate Lewis loss with some extra money for the car?

Maybe you know more than the team principals & Jenson Button himself, who said Lewis is a huge loss for McLaren
Domenicaly said Mclaren loses a big asset, Horner said about the same.
If it was so easy to replace a fast and very talented driver, why do teams break their banks for top drivers like Alonso, Hamilton and probably Vettel ( if he once wants to leave). Why do they just not hire some cheaper driver and use the money for development?

One last question why was Button never a real WDC contender during his time at McLaren , but Lewis was 2010 & 2012?
Why is Lewis Hamilton despite 6 DNFsand all his "car breaking" still in front of Button in the end of 2012, despite he is not the "Better" driver( Like you try to suggest)?

I


How do you know none were down to driving style? Engines aren't the only things that can take damage from driving style.

You can put two guys with polar opposite driving styles in identical cars. Both will set Very similar times. But for some reason one will have more failures. Silly things like being a little more aggressive over kerbs can break cars.

As far as I remember Jenson Button had 2 gearboxfailures & a fuel pump failure, too.
Button was lucky his gearboxfailures happened at FPs and the other failure they found before the race.
An anti Roll bar is nothing a driver can break, the mass damper/ suspension failure was there before the car was run, it was only discovered after the race. I remember, you had this discussion before here about the gearboxes and it went not well for you.
What about the broken pedal at Jenson Buttons car at qualifying at Texas GP , maybe he pushed it too hard?

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Last edited by Haribo on Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:24 pm 
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Jenson is now paid how much? I mean after 2011 you could say far enough but that figure is looking a bit high after 2012?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:27 pm 
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Fat Albert wrote:
There’s another really important statistic missing, cost, reputedly, over the three years Button cost McLaren Mercedes $30m while Hamilton cost $70m!

So Hamilton cost $40m more and scored 15pts less!

Anyone with even the minimum understanding of business can understand that the numbers don’t add up!

Show us the numbers, do you have any source for it?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:29 pm 
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Fat Albert wrote:
There’s another really important statistic missing, cost, reputedly, over the three years Button cost McLaren Mercedes $30m while Hamilton cost $70m!

So Hamilton cost $40m more and scored 15pts less!

Anyone with even the minimum understanding of business can understand that the numbers don’t add up!



Lewis cost Mclaren £70m over 5 years.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:32 pm 
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There is one more aspect Button schooled Hamilton, wet weather races:

I think Button won 5 wet races while at McLaren (Australia 2010, China 2010, Canada 2011, Hungary 2011, Brasil 2012 ).

If I remember correctly, Lewis managed to win one wet race when he was Button's teammate (Spa 2010).


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:38 pm 
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MclarenBullet wrote:
LOOOL at all the button fans clinging to the points over 3 seasons.

Unless you win the championship, points mean nothing. At the end of the day Lewis beat Jenson in 2 out of 3 seasons, won more races(which according to Ron is more important than finishing 2nd in the contructors)

Lewis knows, Jenson knows and the whole of F1 knows Lewis came out on top and is the better of the two.

Not being a fan boy but there is a reason Jenson is made up at Lewis going and that is because he won't get destroyed in 2013 like he has this year.


x(

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:38 pm 
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PacificBeach wrote:
There is one more aspect Button schooled Hamilton, wet weather races:

I think Button won 5 wet races while at McLaren (Australia 2010, China 2010, Canada 2011, Hungary 2011, Brasil 2012 ).

If I remember correctly, Lewis managed to win one wet race when he was Button's teammate (Spa 2010).
Than Hamilton schooled Button in the dry races.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:38 pm 
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PacificBeach wrote:
There is one more aspect Button schooled Hamilton, wet weather races:

I think Button won 5 wet races while at McLaren (Australia 2010, China 2010, Canada 2011, Hungary 2011, Brasil 2012 ).

If I remember correctly, Lewis managed to win one wet race when he was Button's teammate (Spa 2010).


This is the best one yet, did u watch any of those races. Schooled??

Hahahhahahahaha


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:44 pm 
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PacificBeach wrote:
There is one more aspect Button schooled Hamilton, wet weather races:

I think Button won 5 wet races while at McLaren (Australia 2010, China 2010, Canada 2011, Hungary 2011, Brasil 2012 ).

If I remember correctly, Lewis managed to win one wet race when he was Button's teammate (Spa 2010).


This is the best one yet, did u watch any of those races. Schooled??

Hahahhahahahaha


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:56 pm 
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Haribo wrote:
As far as I remember Jenson Button had 2 gearboxfailures & a fuel pump failure, too.
Button was lucky his gearboxfailures happened at FPs and the other failure they found before the race.
An anti Roll bar is nothing a driver can break, the mass damper/ suspension failure was there before the car was run, it was only discovered after the race. I remember, you had this discussion before here about the gearboxes and it went not well for you.
What about the broken pedal at Jenson Buttons car at qualifying at Texas GP , maybe he pushed it too hard?



Yes anti roll bars can be broken by drivers. Remember load from bumps goes through anti roll bars too.

One of JBs gearbox failures was a diff. Funnily enough BOTH cars suffered diff failures after rear punctures.

The other mass damper/extra shock thing happened sometime around FP3 and Q1 only Lewis thought it was set up .

But point out where I said EVERY failure was driver influenced.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:00 pm 
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2011 Button beat Hamilton fairly, as Hamilton made a number of silly mistakes and Button was flawless.

2012 Hamilton has completely thrashed Button and if it wasn't for all the mech problems, and other problems he's had with incidents (Far more than Button) He would be miles ahead of Button and potentially a WDC (Or at least 2nd) So the points tally doesn't really reflect the true gap over the three seasons due to the immense amount of problems Hamilton has had, which are just facts of how the season has gone. Jenson had some issues but no where near the amount Hamilton had, and for Hamilton to still finish ahead considering his problems show's just how bad of a season Jenson has had compared to Hamilton who has completely thrashed him this season.


The reflection is 2-1, and the gap should of been allot bigger this year in the points.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:22 pm 
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Jomox wrote:
2011 Button beat Hamilton fairly, as Hamilton made a number of silly mistakes and Button was flawless.

2012 Hamilton has completely thrashed Button and if it wasn't for all the mech problems, and other problems he's had with incidents (Far more than Button) He would be miles ahead of Button and potentially a WDC (Or at least 2nd) So the points tally doesn't really reflect the true gap over the three seasons due to the immense amount of problems Hamilton has had, which are just facts of how the season has gone. Jenson had some issues but no where near the amount Hamilton had, and for Hamilton to still finish ahead considering his problems show's just how bad of a season Jenson has had compared to Hamilton who has completely thrashed him this season.


The reflection is 2-1, and the gap should of been allot bigger this year in the points.


Thrashed? He's 2 points ahead?? And "if" is wildly speculative, there's no way of knowing the outcome of any races throwing if's and but's around, so many other if's and buts can be interjected, an LH clown moment, botched overtake, unseen debris on track, endless, it's an endless loop and is why the woulda shoulda coulda brigade are consigned to cloud cuckoo land.

Taking the biggest sample (ie not just one lap, one race, one season) in the 3 years they have raced each other in the same equipment the points tally indicates a close run thing but we do have a winner :)

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:32 pm 
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viariani wrote:
Jomox wrote:
2011 Button beat Hamilton fairly, as Hamilton made a number of silly mistakes and Button was flawless.

2012 Hamilton has completely thrashed Button and if it wasn't for all the mech problems, and other problems he's had with incidents (Far more than Button) He would be miles ahead of Button and potentially a WDC (Or at least 2nd) So the points tally doesn't really reflect the true gap over the three seasons due to the immense amount of problems Hamilton has had, which are just facts of how the season has gone. Jenson had some issues but no where near the amount Hamilton had, and for Hamilton to still finish ahead considering his problems show's just how bad of a season Jenson has had compared to Hamilton who has completely thrashed him this season.


The reflection is 2-1, and the gap should of been allot bigger this year in the points.


Thrashed? He's 2 points ahead?? And "if" is wildly speculative, there's no way of knowing the outcome of any races throwing if's and but's around, so many other if's and buts can be interjected, an LH clown moment, botched overtake, unseen debris on track, endless, it's an endless loop and is why the woulda shoulda coulda brigade are consigned to cloud cuckoo land.

Taking the biggest sample (ie not just one lap, one race, one season) in the 3 years they have raced each other in the same equipment the points tally indicates a close run thing but we do have a winner :)


It seems like you never watched the season and just looked at the standings. I talked about facts, you talk about excuses and judgment based on looking at the standings only, try watching F1 next season on TV.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:47 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
Haribo wrote:
As far as I remember Jenson Button had 2 gearboxfailures & a fuel pump failure, too.
Button was lucky his gearboxfailures happened at FPs and the other failure they found before the race.
An anti Roll bar is nothing a driver can break, the mass damper/ suspension failure was there before the car was run, it was only discovered after the race. I remember, you had this discussion before here about the gearboxes and it went not well for you.
What about the broken pedal at Jenson Buttons car at qualifying at Texas GP , maybe he pushed it too hard?



Yes anti roll bars can be broken by drivers. Remember load from bumps goes through anti roll bars too.

One of JBs gearbox failures was a diff. Funnily enough BOTH cars suffered diff failures after rear punctures.

The other mass damper/extra shock thing happened sometime around FP3 and Q1 only Lewis thought it was set up .

But point out where I said EVERY failure was driver influenced.

To break the anti roll bar you need some serious impact, it's one of the most stable parts of the car, I can't remember Hamilton had any contactat at Yemogam , any trip through the gravel, anything else wich would have caused the bar to break. There was nothing. Or did you see anything?


IMO the car from Hamilton had a faulty rear suspension, wich caused the problems with the anti roll bar the next race, too, Maybe the whole chasis / suspensions was damaged since the crash at Spa wich was a quite big one

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Last edited by Haribo on Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:50 pm 
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Total Excluding 2012 as Team errors and reliability may deflect results      
   
                                         JB   LH
Points                                  484   467
Wins                                      5   6
Fastest Laps                              4   8
Podiums                                  19   15
Outqualified                            11   27
Average starting position              5.7    4.4
Gap in qualifying                     0.1795  -0.1795
DNF                                      4   7
Average finish position              3.7    3.375
Ahead when both finish                  10   17


I posted this back in page 2 but seeing how the argument has evolved i have to come back to it.

People here (LH fans) claim that 2012 should have had a bigger margin to it, but 2012 was still highly influenced by team related problems such as Pitstop errors, Jenson setup problems (IMO), Lewis and Jenson DNFs. so why not disregard that year from calculations and see what we have just for an experiment since how much misfortune each driver has suffered is merely speculation and something we can not correctly quantify.

Excluding 2012, the results are not skewed by that much statistically sine in terms of points both drivers finished behind each other.

Lewis is still the faster of the two over one lap, Jenson still has more points and podiums, Lewis has more wins, DNFS and is ahead when both finished but interestingly they both finished just 27 out of a possible 39 races. Also quite interestingly they gap between them when finishing is 1 position and this gap is the same between them as starting positions.


The thing is, Whichever way you look at the results no one has "crashed" "thrashed" or "schooled" anyone really and the gap is very small between these two and there is a point for each of them who can claim he has beaten the other as F1 is not as straight cut and those 2 are very close in talent and ability to each other.

So why this immense fight between the fans to prove one is better? both are top notch and should be ranked around the same but not easily compared as they do the same thing in absolutely different ways.


But i just don't really get how people can bash a certain one of them

Lewis: a mega racer, has a win or die attitude, very fast over one lap (maybe the fastest), very good overtaker, very aggressive, and up until now has never been beaten by a teammate.

Jenson: methodical and calculating, very smooth, smart in the car, needs a very tuned car to perform at the very best, consistent. only teammate to actually beat Lewis while teammates.

So really how can any of them be as bad as the opposite side fans make them? for me they are basically two WDCs and excellent drivers and i am glad i was able to see them as teammates. each one of them has won a major part of the battle for the other to claim a win in the war.

If it is true that Alonso is the class of the field then Lewis (who matched him) is very close by and Jenson (who was able to beat Lewis) is also very close by. it really is not a coincidence that all are WDCs is it?

Jenson has still however to do what Alonso does at Ferrari, which is to compete regularly now that he has the full support of his team. and Lewis is off for another challenge which should mature his personality and improve his craft even more.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:51 pm 
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Button did get whipped this season, it was pretty bad.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:58 pm 
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MclarenBullet wrote:
Jenson is now paid how much? I mean after 2011 you could say far enough but that figure is looking a bit high after 2012?

The same could be said about Lewis after 2011 could in not?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:02 pm 
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MclarenBullet wrote:
Fat Albert wrote:
There’s another really important statistic missing, cost, reputedly, over the three years Button cost McLaren Mercedes $30m while Hamilton cost $70m!

So Hamilton cost $40m more and scored 15pts less!

Anyone with even the minimum understanding of business can understand that the numbers don’t add up!



How thick are you, Lewis cost Mclaren £70m over 5 years.

Really going for name calling! Classless :?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:04 pm 
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benmc wrote:
SilverstoneRegular wrote:
Don't shoot me but this is analysis conducted by a known HamLover!

And it's giving plenty of other HamLovers chance to read is and touch themselves in a pleasurable way...


I'm just gonna avert my eyes lol


Wait... What?
Zedd is a 'known Hamilton lover'?

Yikes. Now I've seen everything.


FormulaFun wrote:

ahahahhahahaha Zedd is a known 'HamLover'?


Balibari wrote:
How do you feel about eggs, Zedd?



Some comprehension issues here. The article and analysis are by James Allen a known "HamLover" as SilverstoneRegular puts it. Its not my analysis.

My analysis is here and this season has proven that it was on the money. Ham and Button can duke it out between who is 4th and 5th best.
http://forum.planet-f1.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2721
http://forum.planet-f1.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1754

I think the Ham fans who keep saying that he was very unlucky and if they added the points he lost due to his "misfortunes" he would have been champ. I say rubbish. You just cant do what-ifs like that. The guy crumbles under pressure and the fact that he was able to put on points later on was because he had no pressure at that time. Read the threads above and you'd see how I predicted it exactly based on my analysis and that is what happened.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:13 pm 
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Image


Image


:lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:25 pm 
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MclarenBullet wrote:
Unless you win the championship, points mean nothing.
So what are we doing and why are we troubling ourselves debating here then?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:29 pm 
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Haribo wrote:
Johnston wrote:
Haribo wrote:
As far as I remember Jenson Button had 2 gearboxfailures & a fuel pump failure, too.
Button was lucky his gearboxfailures happened at FPs and the other failure they found before the race.
An anti Roll bar is nothing a driver can break, the mass damper/ suspension failure was there before the car was run, it was only discovered after the race. I remember, you had this discussion before here about the gearboxes and it went not well for you.
What about the broken pedal at Jenson Buttons car at qualifying at Texas GP , maybe he pushed it too hard?



Yes anti roll bars can be broken by drivers. Remember load from bumps goes through anti roll bars too.

One of JBs gearbox failures was a diff. Funnily enough BOTH cars suffered diff failures after rear punctures.

The other mass damper/extra shock thing happened sometime around FP3 and Q1 only Lewis thought it was set up .

But point out where I said EVERY failure was driver influenced.

To break the anti roll bar you need some serious impact, it's one of the most stable parts of the car, I can't remember Hamilton had any contactat at Yemogam , any trip through the gravel, anything else wich would have caused the bar to break. There was nothing. Or did you see anything?


IMO the car from Hamilton had a faulty rear suspension, wich caused the problems with the anti roll bar the next race, too, Maybe the whole chasis / suspensions was damaged since the crash at Spa wich was a quite big one


So where did Vettel whack his a few years ago at the German GP and where did Alonso heavily whack his in Monza?

Oh and the next race wasn't the anti roll bar.

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