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does senna deserve a seat for 2013?
yes 52%  52%  [ 67 ]
no 48%  48%  [ 62 ]
Total votes : 129
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:30 am 
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senna has options. FI, Lotus (very slim) caterham. he has money for funding aswell but does he deserve another shot? my opinion give him a one more season with a midfield team and friday practise see what he can do. he has been solid maybe the practise time will make him more competitive and a surprise of the new season?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:36 am 
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I voted no as that would be at the cost of Kobayashi and others.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:36 am 
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A good pre season, testing and input i think he will do well


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:38 am 
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He should have got Vettel off the race to make some sponsors happy ;)


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:43 am 
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Senna is good, thing is I think there is at least 5 better drivers without a seat for next year.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:44 am 
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potter84 wrote:
A good pre season, testing and input i think he will do well


*this.
Hope he will find a competitive seat in Force India or Lotus.
Here's an interview:


"Since the beginning of my program with Williams I accepted that I had to share the car with Valtteri Bottas in 15 Fridays as a part of his preparation for a likely début in 2013.
It has been extremely satisfying to be the teams most regular point scorer and for me to demonstrate my pace in all 20 races. I have learned a lot and improved considerably through the season. I have had a relatively short career so far and feel as though I have come a long way in just a few years".
"I would like to thank the whole team and particularly Frank for giving me the chance of completing my first full season in F1. It has been extremely rewarding to develop the Williams FW34 into a consistently competitive race car and cracking the challenge of the Pirelli tyres has been just one of the satisfying points."
"I had some notable achievements this year, such as the fastest lap in the Belgian GP, my favourite track, scoring points on a regular basis and making up many many places through the races. Regularly racing in the top ten has certainly been a step forward in my still relatively short career and has allowed me to further sharpen up my race craft. Working with a competitive and supportive engineering team like Williams has left me well prepared for the next step in my career"


Last edited by shift on Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:48 am 
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I think the chances of him going back to lotus are very slim, more likely a Force India or at a push Caterham although I don't think he would want to go to Caterham unless they were sure of some points finishes next season which they can't garruntee unless they have a trick up their sleeve which I doubt they have.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:51 am 
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I'm split, but I voted no because of the likes of Algy, KK, Sutil, Buemi, Kovalainen who are all struggling to find a seat but are better drivers IMO.

Everyone brings up the whole missing FP1 thing and yes it is a disadvantage but I think his staunch supporters are highlighting it to cover up the fact that if Maldonado wasn't so busy crashing, Senna would have been pulverised in the Championship standings by a good 50 points as well as being dominated in Qualy.

He does however have good racecraft and isnt far behind Maldo on long run pace. He can be a bit too eager on lap 1 and has had a few incidents but then again starting where he does you come to expect that a bit.

That said, I'd welcome someone to give him the chance to prove me right or wrong. I'd prefer to see him at Caterham than Van Der Gaarde or Razia.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:53 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Senna is good, thing is I think there is at least 5 better drivers without a seat for next year.


:thumbup: My point nicely summarized


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:27 pm 
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He's not that bad but Maldonado made him look bad. F1 is not about second chances and he had enough to prove himself but failed.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:47 pm 
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He's a decent driver but I think he's chance in F1 has come too late and he'll never be WDC material, these days I think at his age you need to have already made it in F1 to stand a chance of sticking around but he's still at the stage where he's trying to establish himself.

There are too many drivers with more potential or money than him unfortunately. I'd like to see him get a drive but there aren't really any slots in a decent car so even if he does return he's unlikely to get the chance he needs to prove himself.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:52 pm 
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Yes, far worse have gotten drives.

He's proven he can consistently bring the car home and score points.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:56 pm 
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Seanie wrote:
Yes, far worse have gotten drives.

He's proven he can consistently bring the car home and score points.


Which "far worse" drivers have seats for next year though?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:00 pm 
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Honestly, I think he did well at the end of the season and he was denied FP1 because of Bottas having to drive during that time. Honestly, I think he will be a solid driver, but there are others who deserve a shot before Senna this coming season. I want to like him, but looking at Caterham, Force India, and Marussia... He's going to have to wait another season before a major shakeup.

Marussia is going to have Chilton, FI has enough drivers to watch, and Caterham already has a candidates as well with Van Der Guarde and Petrov.

I think he will not get a shot next season, but he will definitely be on the radar.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:06 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Seanie wrote:
Yes, far worse have gotten drives.

He's proven he can consistently bring the car home and score points.


Which "far worse" drivers have seats for next year though?


Vergne, Pic, Ricciardo, DiResta, Maldonado, and Glock.

So there's 6 guys I think he's proven to be better than. As well we have to remember this poor guy hasn't enjoyed any continuity in his F1 Career until this year where he finally got to run a full season, albeit handing the car off to Bottas on the ever important Friday practices and he STILL bested Maldonado over the entire season. Sure Maldonado got a win which was fantastic, but where was he at the rest of the season in comparison to Senna?

His first season in 2010 the HRT was so unreliable it retired 9 times and in the races the car held together he managed to place decent, never finishing last. 2011 saw him jump into Heidfeld's car mid season and wasn't too far off Petrov who had 2 full years with the team.

I suspect that in a better car he would've surprised a great deal of people.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:44 pm 
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the incubus wrote:
Vergne, Pic, Ricciardo, DiResta, Maldonado, and Glock.


All I can say is LOL. At least 3 out of these 6 drivers would wipe the floor with Senna. One actually already has done it.

the incubus wrote:
So there's 6 guys I think he's proven to be better than. As well we have to remember this poor guy hasn't enjoyed any continuity in his F1 Career until this year where he finally got to run a full season, albeit handing the car off to Bottas on the ever important Friday practices and he STILL bested Maldonado over the entire season. Sure Maldonado got a win which was fantastic, but where was he at the rest of the season in comparison to Senna?


In what pararell universe Senna bested Maldonado? Can you point it out for me?

http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2012/
http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/ ... 14133.html

the incubus wrote:
I suspect that in a better car he would've surprised a great deal of people.


He already got great car this year, what does he need to 'surprise' people? Red Bull rocketship 1 second per lap quicker than the rest? Laugable.


I'm very happy Williams chose much better driver for 2013. Hopefully Senna and his pile of money won't buy him another seat in F1 and he will do something on his level of skills, like DTM or WEC.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:53 pm 
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Armchair Expert wrote:
I'm very happy Williams chose much better driver for 2013. Hopefully Senna and his pile of money won't buy him another seat in F1 and he will do something on his level of skills, like DTM or WEC.



Considering Bottas lack of experience at lower levels, what makes you think he will be better?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:56 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
Armchair Expert wrote:
I'm very happy Williams chose much better driver for 2013. Hopefully Senna and his pile of money won't buy him another seat in F1 and he will do something on his level of skills, like DTM or WEC.



Considering Bottas lack of experience at lower levels, what makes you think he will be better?


You never know. Remember, Raikkonen was the same way because he was only in 26 races before entering F1 and all the drivers thought he would be a danger on the track.

Might be the same result, might be different. We will not know until Melbourne.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:56 pm 
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shift wrote:
potter84 wrote:
A good pre season, testing and input i think he will do well


*this.
Hope he will find a competitive seat in Force India or Lotus.
Here's an interview:


"Since the beginning of my program with Williams I accepted that I had to share the car with Valtteri Bottas in 15 Fridays as a part of his preparation for a likely début in 2013.
It has been extremely satisfying to be the teams most regular point scorer and for me to demonstrate my pace in all 20 races. I have learned a lot and improved considerably through the season. I have had a relatively short career so far and feel as though I have come a long way in just a few years".
"I would like to thank the whole team and particularly Frank for giving me the chance of completing my first full season in F1. It has been extremely rewarding to develop the Williams FW34 into a consistently competitive race car and cracking the challenge of the Pirelli tyres has been just one of the satisfying points."
"I had some notable achievements this year, such as the fastest lap in the Belgian GP, my favourite track, scoring points on a regular basis and making up many many places through the races. Regularly racing in the top ten has certainly been a step forward in my still relatively short career and has allowed me to further sharpen up my race craft. Working with a competitive and supportive engineering team like Williams has left me well prepared for the next step in my career"

I voted yes. It's not because there are a number of other drivers who merit a seat, that Bruno doesn't. Let's just hope more teams will show up over the next few years.

Thanks for that interview, shift! Much appreciated!

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:05 pm 
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OutKast wrote:
You never know. Remember, Raikkonen was the same way because he was only in 26 races before entering F1 and all the drivers thought he would be a danger on the track.

Might be the same result, might be different. We will not know until Melbourne.



Indeed it might but I wouldn't assume it based on Kimi. KK was another one that came good despite lack of mileage. Look at some of the other drivers with more experience before hitting F1.

RoGo and Maldo come to mind. Early Petrov too.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:10 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
OutKast wrote:
You never know. Remember, Raikkonen was the same way because he was only in 26 races before entering F1 and all the drivers thought he would be a danger on the track.

Might be the same result, might be different. We will not know until Melbourne.



Indeed it might but I wouldn't assume it based on Kimi. KK was another one that came good despite lack of mileage. Look at some of the other drivers with more experience before hitting F1.

RoGo and Maldo come to mind. Early Petrov too.


RoGro, Maldo, and Petrov?

Petrov was in GP2 for four or five years, so was Maldonado, and so was Grojsean?

Or am I missing to point completely? :?

Correct me if I'm wrong, Johnston? I mean I can understand Kamui, but the others? Not so much.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:13 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
shift wrote:
potter84 wrote:
A good pre season, testing and input i think he will do well


*this.
Hope he will find a competitive seat in Force India or Lotus.
Here's an interview:


"Since the beginning of my program with Williams I accepted that I had to share the car with Valtteri Bottas in 15 Fridays as a part of his preparation for a likely début in 2013.
It has been extremely satisfying to be the teams most regular point scorer and for me to demonstrate my pace in all 20 races. I have learned a lot and improved considerably through the season. I have had a relatively short career so far and feel as though I have come a long way in just a few years".
"I would like to thank the whole team and particularly Frank for giving me the chance of completing my first full season in F1. It has been extremely rewarding to develop the Williams FW34 into a consistently competitive race car and cracking the challenge of the Pirelli tyres has been just one of the satisfying points."
"I had some notable achievements this year, such as the fastest lap in the Belgian GP, my favourite track, scoring points on a regular basis and making up many many places through the races. Regularly racing in the top ten has certainly been a step forward in my still relatively short career and has allowed me to further sharpen up my race craft. Working with a competitive and supportive engineering team like Williams has left me well prepared for the next step in my career"

I voted yes. It's not because there are a number of other drivers who merit a seat, that Bruno doesn't. Let's just hope more teams will show up over the next few years.

Thanks for that interview, shift! Much appreciated!


It's a pleasure! :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:14 pm 
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No

Had Williams had a top 5 driver this season they would have been on multiple podiums, perhaps multiple winners.

The car was good enough, the drivers not so much

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:48 pm 
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Armchair Expert wrote:
the incubus wrote:
Vergne, Pic, Ricciardo, DiResta, Maldonado, and Glock.


All I can say is LOL. At least 3 out of these 6 drivers would wipe the floor with Senna. One actually already has done it.

the incubus wrote:
So there's 6 guys I think he's proven to be better than. As well we have to remember this poor guy hasn't enjoyed any continuity in his F1 Career until this year where he finally got to run a full season, albeit handing the car off to Bottas on the ever important Friday practices and he STILL bested Maldonado over the entire season. Sure Maldonado got a win which was fantastic, but where was he at the rest of the season in comparison to Senna?


In what pararell universe Senna bested Maldonado? Can you point it out for me?

http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2012/
http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/ ... 14133.html

the incubus wrote:
I suspect that in a better car he would've surprised a great deal of people.


He already got great car this year, what does he need to 'surprise' people? Red Bull rocketship 1 second per lap quicker than the rest? Laugable.


I'm very happy Williams chose much better driver for 2013. Hopefully Senna and his pile of money won't buy him another seat in F1 and he will do something on his level of skills, like DTM or WEC.

I LOVE that your screen name says everything we need to know, to know you have absolutely no idea about the matter. Thanks for that. ;)

Here are 2012's results.
Image

Outside Maldonado's victory Senna outperformed over the entire season. 10 points scoring finishes for Senna vs just 5 for Maldonado. AND, Senna didn't wreck the car the way Maldonado did. I think Ray Charles in his current state could see who is the better driver and who deserves the seat more.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:28 pm 
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the incubus wrote:
Armchair Expert wrote:
the incubus wrote:
Vergne, Pic, Ricciardo, DiResta, Maldonado, and Glock.


All I can say is LOL. At least 3 out of these 6 drivers would wipe the floor with Senna. One actually already has done it.

the incubus wrote:
So there's 6 guys I think he's proven to be better than. As well we have to remember this poor guy hasn't enjoyed any continuity in his F1 Career until this year where he finally got to run a full season, albeit handing the car off to Bottas on the ever important Friday practices and he STILL bested Maldonado over the entire season. Sure Maldonado got a win which was fantastic, but where was he at the rest of the season in comparison to Senna?


In what pararell universe Senna bested Maldonado? Can you point it out for me?

http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2012/
http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/ ... 14133.html

the incubus wrote:
I suspect that in a better car he would've surprised a great deal of people.


He already got great car this year, what does he need to 'surprise' people? Red Bull rocketship 1 second per lap quicker than the rest? Laugable.


I'm very happy Williams chose much better driver for 2013. Hopefully Senna and his pile of money won't buy him another seat in F1 and he will do something on his level of skills, like DTM or WEC.

I LOVE that your screen name says everything we need to know, to know you have absolutely no idea about the matter. Thanks for that. ;)

Here are 2012's results.
Image

Outside Maldonado's victory Senna outperformed over the entire season. 10 points scoring finishes for Senna vs just 5 for Maldonado. AND, Senna didn't wreck the car the way Maldonado did. I think Ray Charles in his current state could see who is the better driver and who deserves the seat more.


This is the problem when people take statistics at face value and don't put them into context.

When both drivers have finished the race it is 6-5 to Senna.

BUT look a little bit closer

Senna's 'victories'
China - Fair and square, finished within a second of each other.
Valencia - Maldonado on for a podium until Hamilton crash, Senna languising in the midfield.
Silverstone - Maldonado looking at 7th/8th place until incident with Perez gives him a puncture.
Hungary - Fair and square, Senna was ahead of Maldo even before his drive thru for hitting Di-Resta
Italy - Maldonado starts at the back of the grid and finishes within a second of Senna
India - Maldonado suffers a puncture when running ahead of Senna

So 4 of Senna's victories have come at the expense of mistakes/misfortuna and not on pace

Senna has had one race at the sharp end - Hungary, and a strong race in Malaysia. But other than that he has not shown the ability to compete at the sharp end of the grid like Maldonado has, regardless of his incidents.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:39 pm 
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the incubus wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Seanie wrote:
Yes, far worse have gotten drives.

He's proven he can consistently bring the car home and score points.


Which "far worse" drivers have seats for next year though?


Vergne, Pic, Ricciardo, DiResta, Maldonado, and Glock.

So there's 6 guys I think he's proven to be better than. As well we have to remember this poor guy hasn't enjoyed any continuity in his F1 Career until this year where he finally got to run a full season, albeit handing the car off to Bottas on the ever important Friday practices and he STILL bested Maldonado over the entire season. Sure Maldonado got a win which was fantastic, but where was he at the rest of the season in comparison to Senna?

His first season in 2010 the HRT was so unreliable it retired 9 times and in the races the car held together he managed to place decent, never finishing last. 2011 saw him jump into Heidfeld's car mid season and wasn't too far off Petrov who had 2 full years with the team.

I suspect that in a better car he would've surprised a great deal of people.


How has he proven to be better than any of them? the only one of them he has partnered is Maldanado and while being more consistent he is without doubt a chunk slower. In my opinion the only drivers you have listed he MAY be better than have only had 1 season and really could still improve. Senna is good but good just does not cut it in F1 at the moment - Ask Kovi, Sutil or Kobayashi.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:41 pm 
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Yeah but it is relevant because, Maldonado's crashes were mostly his making so it doesn't matter how many times he crashed or points lost! point is he lost them costing Williams a small fortune in the process. Second half of this season senna although not qualifying as well as mal but has in my view driven better


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:45 pm 
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coulthards chin wrote:
the incubus wrote:
Armchair Expert wrote:
the incubus wrote:
Vergne, Pic, Ricciardo, DiResta, Maldonado, and Glock.


All I can say is LOL. At least 3 out of these 6 drivers would wipe the floor with Senna. One actually already has done it.

the incubus wrote:
So there's 6 guys I think he's proven to be better than. As well we have to remember this poor guy hasn't enjoyed any continuity in his F1 Career until this year where he finally got to run a full season, albeit handing the car off to Bottas on the ever important Friday practices and he STILL bested Maldonado over the entire season. Sure Maldonado got a win which was fantastic, but where was he at the rest of the season in comparison to Senna?


In what pararell universe Senna bested Maldonado? Can you point it out for me?

http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2012/
http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/ ... 14133.html

the incubus wrote:
I suspect that in a better car he would've surprised a great deal of people.


He already got great car this year, what does he need to 'surprise' people? Red Bull rocketship 1 second per lap quicker than the rest? Laugable.


I'm very happy Williams chose much better driver for 2013. Hopefully Senna and his pile of money won't buy him another seat in F1 and he will do something on his level of skills, like DTM or WEC.

I LOVE that your screen name says everything we need to know, to know you have absolutely no idea about the matter. Thanks for that. ;)

Here are 2012's results.
Image

Outside Maldonado's victory Senna outperformed over the entire season. 10 points scoring finishes for Senna vs just 5 for Maldonado. AND, Senna didn't wreck the car the way Maldonado did. I think Ray Charles in his current state could see who is the better driver and who deserves the seat more.


This is the problem when people take statistics at face value and don't put them into context.

When both drivers have finished the race it is 6-5 to Senna.

BUT look a little bit closer

Senna's 'victories'
China - Fair and square, finished within a second of each other.
Valencia - Maldonado on for a podium until Hamilton crash, Senna languising in the midfield.
Silverstone - Maldonado looking at 7th/8th place until incident with Perez gives him a puncture.
Hungary - Fair and square, Senna was ahead of Maldo even before his drive thru for hitting Di-Resta
Italy - Maldonado starts at the back of the grid and finishes within a second of Senna
India - Maldonado suffers a puncture when running ahead of Senna

So 4 of Senna's victories have come at the expense of mistakes/misfortuna and not on pace

Senna has had one race at the sharp end - Hungary, and a strong race in Malaysia. But other than that he has not shown the ability to compete at the sharp end of the grid like Maldonado has, regardless of his incidents.
But most (or all) of Maldonado's crashes were his own fault.

Its no good crediting him with points he crashed out and didn't win. He probably cost the team a fortune, both in parts and prize money.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:01 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
[Considering Bottas lack of experience at lower levels, what makes you think he will be better?


Quote:
Some within the team reckon that Bottas is fundamentally the quickest of this year's three drivers. That's saying something considering Pastor Maldonado's mercurial qualifying performances.


source - http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/104630

That's the insider knowledge fans are lacking. Team thinks Bottas is fundamentally quicker than Maldonado, who is much quicker than Senna. Of course speed/potential is only part of being successful, but it's the most important one. Everything other can be learned.

It's the same case with Kobayashi. He would be hired again by Sauber, but Perez had shown he can be at times 0.5-1 second per lap quicker than Kobayashi in the same car during races. No wonder they went with Hulkenberg and Gutierrez for second seat and no amount of moaning from Kobayashi fans will change what Sauber think about his talent and potential.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:06 pm 
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Seanie wrote:
coulthards chin wrote:
the incubus wrote:
Armchair Expert wrote:
the incubus wrote:
Vergne, Pic, Ricciardo, DiResta, Maldonado, and Glock.


All I can say is LOL. At least 3 out of these 6 drivers would wipe the floor with Senna. One actually already has done it.

the incubus wrote:
So there's 6 guys I think he's proven to be better than. As well we have to remember this poor guy hasn't enjoyed any continuity in his F1 Career until this year where he finally got to run a full season, albeit handing the car off to Bottas on the ever important Friday practices and he STILL bested Maldonado over the entire season. Sure Maldonado got a win which was fantastic, but where was he at the rest of the season in comparison to Senna?


In what pararell universe Senna bested Maldonado? Can you point it out for me?

http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2012/
http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/ ... 14133.html

the incubus wrote:
I suspect that in a better car he would've surprised a great deal of people.


He already got great car this year, what does he need to 'surprise' people? Red Bull rocketship 1 second per lap quicker than the rest? Laugable.


I'm very happy Williams chose much better driver for 2013. Hopefully Senna and his pile of money won't buy him another seat in F1 and he will do something on his level of skills, like DTM or WEC.

I LOVE that your screen name says everything we need to know, to know you have absolutely no idea about the matter. Thanks for that. ;)

Here are 2012's results.
Image

Outside Maldonado's victory Senna outperformed over the entire season. 10 points scoring finishes for Senna vs just 5 for Maldonado. AND, Senna didn't wreck the car the way Maldonado did. I think Ray Charles in his current state could see who is the better driver and who deserves the seat more.


This is the problem when people take statistics at face value and don't put them into context.

When both drivers have finished the race it is 6-5 to Senna.

BUT look a little bit closer

Senna's 'victories'
China - Fair and square, finished within a second of each other.
Valencia - Maldonado on for a podium until Hamilton crash, Senna languising in the midfield.
Silverstone - Maldonado looking at 7th/8th place until incident with Perez gives him a puncture.
Hungary - Fair and square, Senna was ahead of Maldo even before his drive thru for hitting Di-Resta
Italy - Maldonado starts at the back of the grid and finishes within a second of Senna
India - Maldonado suffers a puncture when running ahead of Senna

So 4 of Senna's victories have come at the expense of mistakes/misfortuna and not on pace

Senna has had one race at the sharp end - Hungary, and a strong race in Malaysia. But other than that he has not shown the ability to compete at the sharp end of the grid like Maldonado has, regardless of his incidents.
But most (or all) of Maldonado's crashes were his own fault.

Its no good crediting him with points he crashed out and didn't win. He probably cost the team a fortune, both in parts and prize money.


this.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:12 pm 
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the incubus wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Seanie wrote:
Yes, far worse have gotten drives.

He's proven he can consistently bring the car home and score points.


Which "far worse" drivers have seats for next year though?


Vergne, Pic, Ricciardo, DiResta, Maldonado, and Glock.

So there's 6 guys I think he's proven to be better than. As well we have to remember this poor guy hasn't enjoyed any continuity in his F1 Career until this year where he finally got to run a full season, albeit handing the car off to Bottas on the ever important Friday practices and he STILL bested Maldonado over the entire season. Sure Maldonado got a win which was fantastic, but where was he at the rest of the season in comparison to Senna?


Don't forget Maldo had his fair share of bad luck as well (engine failure while running 9th (or 10th?) in Malaysia, hydraulics failure while running 3rd in Singapore, KERS failure in Abu Dhabi.

And not to mention while Maldonado was crashing Senna was nowhere near his position. So, no I don't consider him even close to Pastor.

Pic/Glock - we can't really judge.
Di Resta/Vergne - I dunno, maybe.
Ricciardo - nope. I'd take Dan any day of the week instead of him. Senna is extremely poor qualifier and both of them are solid in races.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:24 pm 
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the incubus wrote:
I LOVE that your screen name says everything we need to know, to know you have absolutely no idea about the matter. Thanks for that. ;)

Here are 2012's results.
Image

Outside Maldonado's victory Senna outperformed over the entire season. 10 points scoring finishes for Senna vs just 5 for Maldonado. AND, Senna didn't wreck the car the way Maldonado did. I think Ray Charles in his current state could see who is the better driver and who deserves the seat more.


Cherry picking results, nice. In case you don't know - points are scored over whole season. Points scored in all races are equally important. At the end of the day driver who scored more points did better job. To give full picture analysis should include DNFs and mistakes. Maldonado had ridiculous number of them in 1st part of the season and then few in the second. It speaks volumes that with all Maldonado's brainfades Senna only scored 70% of that.

Williams know how much potential was in their car, and while Maldonado wasted it, Senna not only wasted it, but couldn't reach that potential. If you think you are smarter than F1 teams in rating drivers, fine, you can live in parallel universe where Senna is better driver of the two and maybe even he will become world champion. Meanwhile on planet Earth, in real world, decision was made and I think it was absolutely the right decision.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:36 pm 
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Armchair Expert wrote:
Johnston wrote:
[Considering Bottas lack of experience at lower levels, what makes you think he will be better?


Quote:
Some within the team reckon that Bottas is fundamentally the quickest of this year's three drivers. That's saying something considering Pastor Maldonado's mercurial qualifying performances.


source - http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/104630

That's the insider knowledge fans are lacking. Team thinks Bottas is fundamentally quicker than Maldonado, who is much quicker than Senna. Of course speed/potential is only part of being successful, but it's the most important one. Everything other can be learned.

It's the same case with Kobayashi. He would be hired again by Sauber, but Perez had shown he can be at times 0.5-1 second per lap quicker than Kobayashi in the same car during races. No wonder they went with Hulkenberg and Gutierrez for second seat and no amount of moaning from Kobayashi fans will change what Sauber think about his talent and potential.



Grosjean would appear to be an exception to that rule ;)

For me the speed is not the problem. It's lack of time wheel to wheel. Do we really want people stepping out of GP3 and going wheel to wheel in F1 especially when some of the GP2 champions have been a bit crash happy?

Thats before you consider (and this is my understanding of things) He hasn't went wheel to wheel with anyone in a year.

Thats a lot of rust to shake off in something 2 steps above anything he has RACED.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:38 pm 
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Armchair Expert wrote:
the incubus wrote:
I LOVE that your screen name says everything we need to know, to know you have absolutely no idea about the matter. Thanks for that. ;)

Here are 2012's results.
Image

Outside Maldonado's victory Senna outperformed over the entire season. 10 points scoring finishes for Senna vs just 5 for Maldonado. AND, Senna didn't wreck the car the way Maldonado did. I think Ray Charles in his current state could see who is the better driver and who deserves the seat more.


Cherry picking results, nice. In case you don't know - points are scored over whole season. Points scored in all races are equally important. At the end of the day driver who scored more points did better job. To give full picture analysis should include DNFs and mistakes. Maldonado had ridiculous number of them in 1st part of the season and then few in the second. It speaks volumes that with all Maldonado's brainfades Senna only scored 70% of that.

Williams know how much potential was in their car, and while Maldonado wasted it, Senna not only wasted it, but couldn't reach that potential. If you think you are smarter than F1 teams in rating drivers, fine, you can live in parallel universe where Senna is better driver of the two and maybe even he will become world champion. Meanwhile on planet Earth, in real world, decision was made and I think it was absolutely the right decision.


I think its quite telling that despite of all the results Maldo through away he still has two results better than any of Brunos and 15 more points. Surly you would want the driver who scores you the most points and this year thats Maldonado and not by a small margin.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:45 pm 
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Seanie wrote:
But most (or all) of Maldonado's crashes were his own fault.

Its no good crediting him with points he crashed out and didn't win. He probably cost the team a fortune, both in parts and prize money.

You can credit him with more pace though, and the conventional wisdom is that it's easier to learn reliability than pace.

People wont have endless patience with Maldonado, but imagine next year he does what he did this but ironing out most of the mistakes, now imagine Senna does the same. Who scores the most points?
Sometimes you have to take risks to maximize rewards. The tortoise and the hare way of thinking doesn't always work.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:53 pm 
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Armchair Expert wrote:
Cherry picking results, nice. In case you don't know - points are scored over whole season. Points scored in all races are equally important. At the end of the day driver who scored more points did better job. To give full picture analysis should include DNFs and mistakes. Maldonado had ridiculous number of them in 1st part of the season and then few in the second. It speaks volumes that with all Maldonado's brainfades Senna only scored 70% of that.

Williams know how much potential was in their car, and while Maldonado wasted it, Senna not only wasted it, but couldn't reach that potential. If you think you are smarter than F1 teams in rating drivers, fine, you can live in parallel universe where Senna is better driver of the two and maybe even he will become world champion. Meanwhile on planet Earth, in real world, decision was made and I think it was absolutely the right decision.

So for arguments sake, let's just say that 23 drivers crashed and only Karthikeyan finished the race taking 25 points, at the end of the day you would rate him above Pedro, Heikki, Vitaly, Timo and Charles because at the end of the season he was the only one to net his team points compared to none for the rest of them? That is in fact what you just said with that nonsensical post.

As I've always said, different drivers prefer different things and no one car will feel as good to one driver vs. another and therefore Driver A can win with a car where as his teammate would struggle to drive it a bit and would finish a little ways down the order. Take the Red bull this year as an example... Early on with the loss of the added grip of the EBDD Vettel wasn't as comfortable with the balance of the car and the slightly lesser level of rear grip under acceleration and found it more difficult to drive the car. After the 2nd iteration of updates were installed onto the car, suddenly he once again felt comfortable and the difference in his driving was clear. So, just because Pastor led Bruno a few times throughout the season and managed to get a victory does not make him better.



mikeyg123 wrote:
How has he proven to be better than any of them? the only one of them he has partnered is Maldanado and while being more consistent he is without doubt a chunk slower. In my opinion the only drivers you have listed he MAY be better than have only had 1 season and really could still improve. Senna is good but good just does not cut it in F1 at the moment - Ask Kovi, Sutil or Kobayashi.

This Myth about drivers being way slower has got to stop. It's utter nonsense. If you think a second is a huge difference, blink twice as fast as you can and that's the difference. Please explain how that categorizes a driver as being "chunks slower". Think about how long a lap in F1 is and then divide that second (usually less) difference around the entire distance. that second would have to be broken to hundreds of thousandths if not millionths to spread it evenly. I cannot be certain that Bottas is indeed faster than both of them (we will see next year), but I am certain that Senna, like Heidfeld, brought the car home in the points and in one piece.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:14 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
Armchair Expert wrote:
Johnston wrote:
[Considering Bottas lack of experience at lower levels, what makes you think he will be better?


Quote:
Some within the team reckon that Bottas is fundamentally the quickest of this year's three drivers. That's saying something considering Pastor Maldonado's mercurial qualifying performances.


source - http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/104630

That's the insider knowledge fans are lacking. Team thinks Bottas is fundamentally quicker than Maldonado, who is much quicker than Senna. Of course speed/potential is only part of being successful, but it's the most important one. Everything other can be learned.

It's the same case with Kobayashi. He would be hired again by Sauber, but Perez had shown he can be at times 0.5-1 second per lap quicker than Kobayashi in the same car during races. No wonder they went with Hulkenberg and Gutierrez for second seat and no amount of moaning from Kobayashi fans will change what Sauber think about his talent and potential.



Grosjean would appear to be an exception to that rule ;)

For me the speed is not the problem. It's lack of time wheel to wheel. Do we really want people stepping out of GP3 and going wheel to wheel in F1 especially when some of the GP2 champions have been a bit crash happy?

Thats before you consider (and this is my understanding of things) He hasn't went wheel to wheel with anyone in a year.

Thats a lot of rust to shake off in something 2 steps above anything he has RACED.


Button and Raikkonen came from much lower and did fine in there debut year.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:17 pm 
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the incubus wrote:
Armchair Expert wrote:
Cherry picking results, nice. In case you don't know - points are scored over whole season. Points scored in all races are equally important. At the end of the day driver who scored more points did better job. To give full picture analysis should include DNFs and mistakes. Maldonado had ridiculous number of them in 1st part of the season and then few in the second. It speaks volumes that with all Maldonado's brainfades Senna only scored 70% of that.

Williams know how much potential was in their car, and while Maldonado wasted it, Senna not only wasted it, but couldn't reach that potential. If you think you are smarter than F1 teams in rating drivers, fine, you can live in parallel universe where Senna is better driver of the two and maybe even he will become world champion. Meanwhile on planet Earth, in real world, decision was made and I think it was absolutely the right decision.

So for arguments sake, let's just say that 23 drivers crashed and only Karthikeyan finished the race taking 25 points, at the end of the day you would rate him above Pedro, Heikki, Vitaly, Timo and Charles because at the end of the season he was the only one to net his team points compared to none for the rest of them? That is in fact what you just said with that nonsensical post.

As I've always said, different drivers prefer different things and no one car will feel as good to one driver vs. another and therefore Driver A can win with a car where as his teammate would struggle to drive it a bit and would finish a little ways down the order. Take the Red bull this year as an example... Early on with the loss of the added grip of the EBDD Vettel wasn't as comfortable with the balance of the car and the slightly lesser level of rear grip under acceleration and found it more difficult to drive the car. After the 2nd iteration of updates were installed onto the car, suddenly he once again felt comfortable and the difference in his driving was clear. So, just because Pastor led Bruno a few times throughout the season and managed to get a victory does not make him better.



mikeyg123 wrote:
How has he proven to be better than any of them? the only one of them he has partnered is Maldanado and while being more consistent he is without doubt a chunk slower. In my opinion the only drivers you have listed he MAY be better than have only had 1 season and really could still improve. Senna is good but good just does not cut it in F1 at the moment - Ask Kovi, Sutil or Kobayashi.

This Myth about drivers being way slower has got to stop. It's utter nonsense. If you think a second is a huge difference, blink twice as fast as you can and that's the difference. Please explain how that categorizes a driver as being "chunks slower". Think about how long a lap in F1 is and then divide that second (usually less) difference around the entire distance. that second would have to be broken to hundreds of thousandths if not millionths to spread it evenly. I cannot be certain that Bottas is indeed faster than both of them (we will see next year), but I am certain that Senna, like Heidfeld, brought the car home in the points and in one piece.


I agree a second in F1 is huge the gap between Maldo and Senna is usually about .25 which is still huge in F1 terms.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:19 pm 
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Does not, but I wouldn't be surprised if he got a race seat for 2013 with his sponsorship dollars and the famous name.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:20 pm 
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I really don't understand why people are so keen on Bruno. I mean I'm a huge Ayrton Senna fan, but Bruno hasn't really done anything worthwhile to prove that he deserves to remain in F1. Coming in as a new guy, it really doesn't matter if you are consistent but slow. He has been severely outpaced by Maldonado when it comes to one lap and race pace (when he doesn't crash). I'd much rather work with a Maldonado or a Grosjean than Senna. Senna has never shown any true pace and there are plenty of other drivers waiting in the wings who can perform as well if not much better than him.


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