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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:46 pm 
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also, don't forget the "s" word.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:59 pm 
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spooky wrote:
RickM wrote:
Dalemac wrote:
Is anyone else surprised by the lap Jenson put in? nearly 8 and a half tenth's quicker thank mark in the RB. I know its not a good idea to read too much into the test times, but this would seem like a pretty large gap. Reminds me of 2009 with the brawn.

No.

It's testing. I think we need to put this in big bold letters at the top of the forum for testing days.

No time, high or low means anything. They all mean naff all as:

1) Its unofficial
2) You dont know who is/isnt usind DRS/Kers during testing
3) You dont know fuel loads
4) You dont know tires
5) You dont know if they cut corners
6) Every single car except 1 may be on a very conservative test, thus making one seem amazingly fast.
7) It's testing
8) It's testing
9) It's testing
10) It's testing

Its all very well saying its testing but i'm pretty sure you can get some sort of pecking order from testing. At the end of the day Mclaren are top and Marussia are bottom of the timing screens. Familiar picture to the actual season.

What im saying is you cant completely rule out the testing times as they do tend to paint a true picture of the order (reading between the lines)



There's not alot you can gain though. It's all good saying McLaren are near the top, that's all well and good, but you made that assumption based on previous experience, not actual testing. We simply do not know enough of the details. All we can do is sort of clump cars together in order of what we think their pace is. Basing very little from the test data, and more from our personal assumptions.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:16 pm 
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Most interesting observation I have for the first day is that when guys seemed to be doing a hot lap, then a slow lap, then a hot lap, the hot laps were getting slower by a half to a full second, not tenths. A lot to think about there.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:24 pm 
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testing doesn't mean anything unless your favourite driver is quickest!! :]


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:33 pm 
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jensons button wrote:
testing doesn't mean anything unless your favourite driver is quickest!! :]

If your fave driver is slow he is sandbagging :lol:


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:45 pm 
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It is possible to make fairly accurate predictions from testing.

However, to do this one has to completely ignore the timing screens and look at the facial expressions and body language of each team's drivers and other personnel.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:48 pm 
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fieldstvl wrote:
It is possible to make fairly accurate predictions from testing.

However, to do this one has to completely ignore the timing screens and look at the facial expressions and body language of each team's drivers and other personnel.


Good luck trying to figure out Di Resta's feelings.....................


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:54 pm 
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Read what Massa said about the new F138.

He said "Its on a completely different planet" to the F2012 from last year. Its a good sign, but he said the car was running hotter than usual. Hopefully, Ferrari will resolve the issue to maintain the type of reliablity they had last season with the F2012.

http://en.espnf1.com/ferrari/motorsport ... 00105.html

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:57 pm 
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I've just been shouting at the telly. Only put Sky Sports News to hear about the latest day of woe for my football club, but then they turned their attention to today's testing - they wouldn't have even acknowledged it was going on before last year.

Anyhoo, Jim White, the presenter who is semi-famous among football fans for getting very excited on transfer deadline day in the Premier League went all TDL on today's events.
He explained how Jenson Button's car had to be taken back [raised voice in mock shock] ON A PICK UP TRUCK, and that 'the 2009 World Champion had to hitch a lift back to the pits [raised voice again] HOW EMBARRASSING'.

It's the first day of pre-season testing you idiot. Save the hyperbole for something you actually know something about.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:03 pm 
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Button's lap after the quick one, at 1:19.696, was still faster than Webber!

di Resta very consistent, one 9 lap stint saw them all within 6/10ths

Massa & Grosjean not able (or not not trying) to be consistent, times varying by up to 2s on similar stints

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:09 pm 
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JohnnyGuitar wrote:
I've just been shouting at the telly. Only put Sky Sports News to hear about the latest day of woe for my football club, but then they turned their attention to today's testing - they wouldn't have even acknowledged it was going on before last year.

Anyhoo, Jim White, the presenter who is semi-famous among football fans for getting very excited on transfer deadline day in the Premier League went all TDL on today's events.
He explained how Jenson Button's car had to be taken back [raised voice in mock shock] ON A PICK UP TRUCK, and that 'the 2009 World Champion had to hitch a lift back to the pits [raised voice again] HOW EMBARRASSING'.

It's the first day of pre-season testing you idiot. Save the hyperbole for something you actually know something about.

Sky's refusal to report on anything they don't cover is so irritating. On the day Kubica had his rally accident I turned on Sky Sports News to try to get the latest on his condition rather than rely on internet rumours. Of course the breaking news at the time was the starting line-up for some irrelevant football match from the Championship. :x


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:24 pm 
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RickM wrote:
Dalemac wrote:
Is anyone else surprised by the lap Jenson put in? nearly 8 and a half tenth's quicker thank mark in the RB. I know its not a good idea to read too much into the test times, but this would seem like a pretty large gap. Reminds me of 2009 with the brawn.

No.

It's testing. I think we need to put this in big bold letters at the top of the forum for testing days.

No time, high or low means anything. They all mean naff all as:

1) Its unofficial
2) You dont know who is/isnt usind DRS/Kers during testing
3) You dont know fuel loads
4) You dont know tires
5) You dont know if they cut corners
6) Every single car except 1 may be on a very conservative test, thus making one seem amazingly fast.
7) It's testing
8) It's testing
9) It's testing
10) It's testing

I think it's easier to pick cars that are bad, rather than find the fastest car. During tests Ferrari looked horribly while cornering and it was horrible in Oz.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:33 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
You can show up with something completely different in Australia than you had in Jerez. Nothing is frozen.

I'm not sure if you can easily fix length and height of car or configuration of suspension etc. Teams just add new parts around crash protection structures and monocoque. If you do something wrong there you are doomed.

Length and height are dictated by the rules, and teams make changes to their suspension configuration throughout the season so they certainly can do it during testing. Its unlikely that a fundamentally poor area of the car would be the crash structures or monocoque. THey are, again, largely dictated by the rules. We have seen many times, even recently, cars turn up in Melbourne that are vastly different from what ran around in Spain. Think McLaren 2011, RBR 2012.

I was talking about push rod or pull rod configuration. If you start season with low nose, you will end with low nose etc. To fix length you can just add longer nosecone, but wheels will be attached to to the same spot during testing and Brazilian GP. I said easily, because teams may find some workarounds, but they always will be suboptimal. Of course teams may bring many new parts, but some fundamentals cannot be changed. McLaren had to wait till new season to bring higher nose and chassis or pullrod front suspension.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:09 pm 
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They didn't have to, they chose to. A push vs pull rod concept will not be fundamentally bad - one is not better or worse, they are just different. Its VERY unlikely to find something you'd want to do that can only be accomplished with the other. You'd have to have a WHOLE bad car to need to start over, and they'd know from simulation if their concept was hopeless, and they'd know that a long time ago. Nobody will have shown up at testing with a car that just plain doesn't work - not at this level of the sport.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:22 pm 
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RickM wrote:
Dalemac wrote:
Is anyone else surprised by the lap Jenson put in? nearly 8 and a half tenth's quicker thank mark in the RB. I know its not a good idea to read too much into the test times, but this would seem like a pretty large gap. Reminds me of 2009 with the brawn.

No.

It's testing. I think we need to put this in big bold letters at the top of the forum for testing days.

No time, high or low means anything. They all mean naff all as:

1) Its unofficial
2) You dont know who is/isnt usind DRS/Kers during testing
3) You dont know fuel loads
4) You dont know tires
5) You dont know if they cut corners
6) Every single car except 1 may be on a very conservative test, thus making one seem amazingly fast.
7) It's testing
8) It's testing
9) It's testing
10) It's testing


Christ all mighty, was it a bad day at work or something? 8O

I was merely suggesting that to be quickest by almost a second is not typical, even in testing. Although teams are keeping their cards close to their chest, it can at least indicate the state and condition of the car they are running. Hence:

Dalemac wrote:
I know its not a good idea to read too much into the test times, but this would seem like a pretty large gap.


No need to be so obnoxious.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:32 pm 
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Wow... I know we as fans often times over react to things. However, there seems to be no doubt that the Macca is the fastest car out there right now... Button himself was a bit taken back by the speed of the car out of the gate...


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:35 pm 
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Dalemac wrote:
Christ all mighty, was it a bad day at work or something? 8O

I was merely suggesting that to be quickest by almost a second is not typical, even in testing. Although teams are keeping their cards close to their chest, it can at least indicate the state and condition of the car they are running. Hence:

Dalemac wrote:
I know its not a good idea to read too much into the test times, but this would seem like a pretty large gap.


No need to be so obnoxious.

Sorry, its just people keep coming out with lines like "driver X isn't doing too good, he only set a 1.xx - 4 seconds off the pace" - it means chocolate fudge cake all in reality.

Like people assuming Marussia and Caterham are doing terrible because they are 5 seconds off the fastest time. In reality, Marussia had a failure (thus couldn't continue testing) and Caterham were likely doing what everyone else was - TESTING. The point of testing isn't to set a fast lap time, its to go through every situation you expect the car to experience in an F1 season. Be it doing lots of laps to see how tire wear works (so you'd be on a high fuel load) or doing a hot lap to see how the car handles under pressure. Even on a hot lap, the chances of everything being geared up for full power are next to zero at this stage.

Barcelona tests will show much more accurate times, especially on the last day of testing. If you look historically back at each year, times before this really do mean about as much as the contents of the bottom of my coffee cup.

There arent any ifs or buts about it, the times mean diddly squat. Sorry if it comes across as blunt but its getting tiresome having to explain this over and over. :nod:

Also there's really no need for teams to keep their cards close to their chest. Whatever happens everyone has to do a hot lap at some point, be it now or in Brazil. Maybe macca just wanted to get it over and done with now, so that they have a baseline time on the current setup before they test other new parts tomorrow.

Now this all being said, would I like to see button topping the time sheets? Absolutely! But again, it really doesn't mean a lot in the grand scale of things.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:38 pm 
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Let's keep it on the friendly side, besides, what are we supposed to do? since we don't have any races yet, testing is the hottest scoop at this time. It's only natural to try splitting hairs about these results. Keeps us busy 'till the actual show gets on the road.

Curious as to what Williams are doing. What relevance does the data accumulated today have? 84 laps that's a major haul, but if it's gained using the old 2012 chassis, then most of it would probably even not fit the new chassis...no? like tire usage, durability hit, engine heating, etc. I admit that maybe some elements would not change with the new car (some supension elements, engine, steering wheel) but a new chassis would come with a whole lot of subtle differences, mounting points, slightly different camber etc etc etc...how do you get a delta time out of 2012's chassis?

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:07 pm 
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RickM wrote:

It's testing. I think we need to put this in big bold letters at the top of the forum for testing days.


I put a reminder in my sig ;) :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:08 pm 
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ATM2 wrote:
Curious as to what Williams are doing. What relevance does the data accumulated today have? 84 laps that's a major haul, but if it's gained using the old 2012 chassis, then most of it would probably even not fit the new chassis...no? like tire usage, durability hit, engine heating, etc. I admit that maybe some elements would not change with the new car (some supension elements, engine, steering wheel) but a new chassis would come with a whole lot of subtle differences, mounting points, slightly different camber etc etc etc...how do you get a delta time out of 2012's chassis?

You can learn the general characteristics and behavior of the tires, which is one of if not the most important things to get data on in.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:14 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
They didn't have to, they chose to. A push vs pull rod concept will not be fundamentally bad - one is not better or worse, they are just different. Its VERY unlikely to find something you'd want to do that can only be accomplished with the other. You'd have to have a WHOLE bad car to need to start over, and they'd know from simulation if their concept was hopeless, and they'd know that a long time ago. Nobody will have shown up at testing with a car that just plain doesn't work - not at this level of the sport.

Doesn't matter, may point is that they can't change it during season.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:15 pm 
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Quote:
You can learn the general characteristics and behavior of the tires, which is one of if not the most important things to get data on in.


Well, that's pretty much what I was asking. if they bring a new chassis with different suspension mounting points, with different airflow which might cool/heat tires differently, won't that change the behavior of the tires on the new car?

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:15 pm 
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fire caused by the wiring loom?

assumingly rather close to a hot primary ignition source?

appreciate its testing but that seems rather careless and badly designed?.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:20 pm 
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Every year during early spring a group of people emerge from hibernation and go about on a most peculiar ritual of telling everyone that testing times don't mean anything. One can only marvel at the precision of timing and sense of purpose of these occurrences.
No one really yet understands this behavior but it is believed to stem from ancient sociological features evolved through the millennia.
Truly magnificent phenomenon.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:25 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
You can learn the general characteristics and behavior of the tires, which is one of if not the most important things to get data on in.



I don't really get what you are hinting at with your Sig. :lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:26 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
Every year during early spring a group of people emerge from hibernation and go about on a most peculiar ritual of telling everyone that testing times don't mean anything. One can only marvel at the precision of timing and sense of purpose of these occurrences.
No one really yet understands this behavior but it is believed to stem from ancient sociological features evolved through the millennia.
Truly magnificent phenomenon.



excellent! made me chuckle.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:32 pm 
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dizlexik wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
They didn't have to, they chose to. A push vs pull rod concept will not be fundamentally bad - one is not better or worse, they are just different. Its VERY unlikely to find something you'd want to do that can only be accomplished with the other. You'd have to have a WHOLE bad car to need to start over, and they'd know from simulation if their concept was hopeless, and they'd know that a long time ago. Nobody will have shown up at testing with a car that just plain doesn't work - not at this level of the sport.

Doesn't matter, may point is that they can't change it during season.

Sure they can.

ATM2 - Trends with the tires' characteristics wont change much car to car - the difference in aero and suspension concepts just maximize the performance within those trends. If anything using the old chassis will directly highlight how the tires have changed, and that in itself is very valuable data.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:34 pm 
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I think you can gain a bit from testing you can usually tell which cars seem to be handling well and if the drivers feel comfortable in them, also you need to take into account the nature of the testing like this morning most were doing plenty of systems checks (marussia were checking their kers was full operational) whereas others were doing more aero evaluation which doesn't require top speed more constant speed, then you have those that were primarily doing tyre evaluations which were doing hot laps. So anything you gain must be done based on the type of testing carried out, come Barcelona or Australia most will have new front wings and rear wings though anyway,many have already said as much so yes you can get ideas but aren't by any means a true pecking order. I will say one thing though both Massa and button looked very comfortable in their respective cars,if the set up suits button he can be blisteringly fast and Massa looks confident and if he follows last years end of year form could be quite a tussle at the top between the teams rather than just one driver from each.


Last edited by potter84 on Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:34 pm 
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[quote="Hakkattack"]Wow... I know we as fans often times over react to things. However, there seems to be no doubt that the Macca is the fastest car out there right now... Button himself was a bit taken back by the speed of the car out of the gate...[/quote]

Just before the fuel pump gave up the ghost I guess?

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:36 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
You can learn the general characteristics and behavior of the tires, which is one of if not the most important things to get data on in.



I don't really get what you are hinting at with your Sig. :lol: :lol:

should I make it bigger? Image

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:41 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
Johnston wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
You can learn the general characteristics and behavior of the tires, which is one of if not the most important things to get data on in.



I don't really get what you are hinting at with your Sig. :lol: :lol:

should I make it bigger? Image



Maybe, what does "just" mean? :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:47 pm 
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Just a reminder that Rosberg had the quickest time over the 4 days tetsing at Jerez last year with a 1m17.613 on day 3 and we know how awful they performed throughout the year (although their qualifying in australia wasn't too bad, 4th and 7th).

Headline times really don't tell the whole story, although if someone had put in a 1m16 today we may be saying otherwise (outright speed doesn't lie). I'm sure Caterham or Marussia would love to put in a time like Button's. Even if they were stripped out bear I'm not they'd be able to.

Apart from this, read any 'expert' opinion and they'll tell you that long run pace is the best way to understand the pecking order. Others also check out a cars behaviour at a certain corner to see how the car handles (ferrari last year for example, it was obvious it was a handful). As Jerez is the 1st test, not many meaningful long runs happen the first couple of days if at all, it's all about system checks and setup.

I expect the real hacks will be able to give us a first insight at he end of this test but we'll have to wait until Barcelona to see if those first impressions were near the mark.

It's a puzzle gents, lets try not to put the last piece in before we've finished the edges!! Enjoy the suspense, we've been waiting 2 months for it all to begin!!


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:53 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
RickM wrote:

It's testing. I think we need to put this in big bold letters at the top of the forum for testing days.


I put a reminder in my sig ;) :lol:


:lol: love it!

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:01 pm 
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FYI to anyone with Sky - todays coverage of testing is on now followed by Ted's notebook.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:16 pm 
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RickM wrote:
FYI to anyone with Sky - todays coverage of testing is on now followed by Ted's notebook.



GROANNNNNNNNN!!!!! :x :x :x :x

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:47 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
You'd have to have a WHOLE bad car to need to start over, and they'd know from simulation if their concept was hopeless, and they'd know that a long time ago. Nobody will have shown up at testing with a car that just plain doesn't work - not at this level of the sport.

respectfully, i have to ... not too long ago a team them known as virgin racing managed to show up with a car that wouldn't make a full race distance due to a too small fuel tank ... i would call that hopeless and it was the sim that got them into that sh**

however, basically you're right ... ;)

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:51 pm 
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egnat69 wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
You'd have to have a WHOLE bad car to need to start over, and they'd know from simulation if their concept was hopeless, and they'd know that a long time ago. Nobody will have shown up at testing with a car that just plain doesn't work - not at this level of the sport.

respectfully, i have to ... not too long ago a team them known as virgin racing managed to show up with a car that wouldn't make a full race distance due to a too small fuel tank ... i would call that hopeless and it was the sim that got them into that sh**

however, basically you're right ... ;)



Yes but that was because of a change in the fuel regs after they had started to design the car. When the FIA announced the change that area was locked in and it isn't as simple as just bolting in a bigger bag.

It wasn't as simple as a plain cock up on their behalf. There were other factors that led to it.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:52 pm 
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Was it their sim or a failure of the engine supplier to provide accurate economy data?

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:01 pm 
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dizlexik wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
You can show up with something completely different in Australia than you had in Jerez. Nothing is frozen.

I'm not sure if you can easily fix length and height of car or configuration of suspension etc. Teams just add new parts around crash protection structures and monocoque. If you do something wrong there you are doomed.

Length and height are dictated by the rules, and teams make changes to their suspension configuration throughout the season so they certainly can do it during testing. Its unlikely that a fundamentally poor area of the car would be the crash structures or monocoque. THey are, again, largely dictated by the rules. We have seen many times, even recently, cars turn up in Melbourne that are vastly different from what ran around in Spain. Think McLaren 2011, RBR 2012.

I was talking about push rod or pull rod configuration. If you start season with low nose, you will end with low nose etc. To fix length you can just add longer nosecone, but wheels will be attached to to the same spot during testing and Brazilian GP. I said easily, because teams may find some workarounds, but they always will be suboptimal. Of course teams may bring many new parts, but some fundamentals cannot be changed. McLaren had to wait till new season to bring higher nose and chassis or pullrod front suspension.

what you are talking about is the restriction of having only one chassis per year homologated with the FIA ... i don't know if this is still in place ... it would certainly be quite a task building a new car while the season is underway and thus would probably be easier to focus on the next year ... espacially with those upcoming changes for 2014...

_________________
How to fix F1:
1. Stop seeking consensuses on rules - it will always turn out to be the least favourible option for everyone involved...
2. Listen to the fans - there are plenty of them and they have good ideas...


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:02 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 10:10 pm
Posts: 17
andrewmapes wrote:
Just a reminder that Rosberg had the quickest time over the 4 days tetsing at Jerez last year with a 1m17.613 on day 3 and we know how awful they performed throughout the year (although their qualifying in australia wasn't too bad, 4th and 7th).

Headline times really don't tell the whole story, although if someone had put in a 1m16 today we may be saying otherwise (outright speed doesn't lie). I'm sure Caterham or Marussia would love to put in a time like Button's. Even if they were stripped out bear I'm not they'd be able to.

Apart from this, read any 'expert' opinion and they'll tell you that long run pace is the best way to understand the pecking order. Others also check out a cars behaviour at a certain corner to see how the car handles (ferrari last year for example, it was obvious it was a handful). As Jerez is the 1st test, not many meaningful long runs happen the first couple of days if at all, it's all about system checks and setup.

I expect the real hacks will be able to give us a first insight at he end of this test but we'll have to wait until Barcelona to see if those first impressions were near the mark.

It's a puzzle gents, lets try not to put the last piece in before we've finished the edges!! Enjoy the suspense, we've been waiting 2 months for it all to begin!!


last year rosbergs time was set in the 2011 car with blown difusser which was a couple seconds quicker than the 2012 cars.

I think what ever the times are its a better sign to be at the top than the bottom. Say jensons time of today was a 1.18. some of the other teams wouldnt be able to get to that time, even with new tyres and low fuel. therefore those teams know already that the mclaren is a faster car. the funny thing is, is that mclaren dont know that. the same situation can happen for long runs. if the lotus did a 10 lap long run in the 22s on hards, there wil be some teams who wouldnt be able to do that. but again lotus wouldnt have a clue.

If your a team, you can easily tell which cars are faster than you. but you dont know for sure which cars who you're faster than. if that makes sense.


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