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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:45 am 
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Race2win wrote:
andrewinwork wrote:
Jenson struggling to understand the car and rekons the rest of the field may have a jump on McLaren as they'll be driving developments from last years car. At the risk of incurring the wrath of a circling fanboy (gratefully missing so far from this thread by common sense and excellent mods) is this another example of JB's achilles heel i.e. car set up.

Do you know exactly what is the drivers contribution in setting up the car?


Nope, just running on anecdotes and caffeine ;)


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:55 am 
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andrewinwork wrote:
Jenson struggling to understand the car and rekons the rest of the field may have a jump on McLaren as they'll be driving developments from last years car. At the risk of incurring the wrath of a circling fanboy (gratefully missing so far from this thread by common sense and excellent mods) is this another example of JB's achilles heel i.e. car set up.


Jenson getting his excuses in early for this year's WDC failure I see...

Surely it can't be every car's fault...at some point you have to look at the driver that can't set up a car properly, or can't drive around problems.

I used to support Jense to the end of the earth, but he just whinges, whines, moans and gripes...sometimes you just want to tell him to shut up and get on with driving the thing!

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:07 am 
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Adaemus wrote:
andrewinwork wrote:
Jenson struggling to understand the car and rekons the rest of the field may have a jump on McLaren as they'll be driving developments from last years car. At the risk of incurring the wrath of a circling fanboy (gratefully missing so far from this thread by common sense and excellent mods) is this another example of JB's achilles heel i.e. car set up.


Jenson getting his excuses in early for this year's WDC failure I see...

Surely it can't be every car's fault...at some point you have to look at the driver that can't set up a car properly, or can't drive around problems.

I used to support Jense to the end of the earth, but he just whinges, whines, moans and gripes...sometimes you just want to tell him to shut up and get on with driving the thing!


You used stronger phrases than I would but there's nothing there I could disagree with


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:11 am 
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@Adaemus: Do you know what is the exact contribution of the driver in setting up the car?

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:11 am 
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andrewinwork wrote:
Jenson struggling to understand the car and rekons the rest of the field may have a jump on McLaren as they'll be driving developments from last years car. At the risk of incurring the wrath of a circling fanboy (gratefully missing so far from this thread by common sense and excellent mods) is this another example of JB's achilles heel i.e. car set up.

i've said it before and i'll say it again: mclaren have a history of changing too many things at a time... the more stuff you change at once the harder it gets to understand the changed behaviour... it surely was a huge step for them to switch to the higher chassis, as their cars usually were based around low cog... they should have done with that - instead they changed to pull-rod, returned the sidepods from the mp4-26 and who knows what they changed under the hood... it's perfectly normal to struggle with understanding the new car from that pov... just a very bold move one year before big reg-changes come into play...

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:14 am 
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Track must be almost dry now as the times have tumbled to the norm


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:22 am 
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I dont see a point of criticising a team or a driver when we dont know what the situation is. From the interview I read of Jenson, all he said was they havet been able to put in miles in testing so they are falling behind other who are doing more miles. In what way does that sound as complaining or whining to you all??

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:37 am 
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Race2win wrote:
@Adaemus: Do you know what is the exact contribution of the driver in setting up the car?


Depends on the driver, but they all offer something in terms of knowing where to shift downforce or brake balance. Anyway, it's more to do with the ability to drive with the car you've been given, as opposed to waiting for the perfect setup.

Jense is the F1 equivalent of Arsenal, when it clicks and it's all going well he's breathtaking...but if something's not quite right he starts looking more like QPR.

I love the guy btw, so don't think I'm bashing him...I just wish he was able to cope with bad handling cars a bit better!

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:48 am 
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Adaemus wrote:
Race2win wrote:
@Adaemus: Do you know what is the exact contribution of the driver in setting up the car?


Depends on the driver, but they all offer something in terms of knowing where to shift downforce or brake balance. Anyway, it's more to do with the ability to drive with the car you've been given, as opposed to waiting for the perfect setup.

Jense is the F1 equivalent of Arsenal, when it clicks and it's all going well he's breathtaking...but if something's not quite right he starts looking more like QPR.

I love the guy btw, so don't think I'm bashing him...I just wish he was able to cope with bad handling cars a bit better!


The majority of set up is down to the engineers, the drivers give feedback and the engineers decipher it and act upon it.

As we all know Jenson gives too much feedback :D

What he has said (Going on this thread just) It's no big surprise some of us even suggested it previously. They have changed concept on the car to a way other teams have been running for 3 years now. So they have to learn what everyone else knows.

It's the reason I thought they wouldn't change before the 2014 regs.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:08 pm 
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Well every driver complain.. Last thing I read Perez complained about Pirelli saying that they would probably need 10 stops in Australia.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:13 pm 
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@Adaemus: Well since you say Jenson was complaining during testing, enlighten us, what was the setup Jenson asked for and what was the set up given by his team.
@ Johnston: How much is too much information?

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:20 pm 
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Race2win wrote:
@Adaemus: Well since you say Jenson was complaining during testing, enlighten us, what was the setup Jenson asked for and what was the set up given by his team.


You know perfectly well I have no idea what his detailed setup information is, but I'm assuming they didn't send him out with a Wacky Races set up on three wheels with the brake balance all to the front left.

It's more that Jenson has previous for this sort of thing, if Perez is going to start doing the same then we're going to have a very whiney year at McLaren! :-P

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:22 pm 
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Race2win wrote:
@Adaemus: Well since you say Jenson was complaining during testing, enlighten us, what was the setup Jenson asked for and what was the set up given by his team.
@ Johnston: How much is too much information?


Sorry guys - I knew I was risking this when I made my post

.... How can anyone answer those questions. They are impressions based on historical evidence, anecdotes and gut instincts. This is a discussion forum not a court of law


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:22 pm 
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Did anyone listen to the Jenson button "complaining" interview?

He had a smile on his face thru most of it and was not whinging but stating facts and saying that's it's the same for everyone and that he's happy the tyres have a wider operating window

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:25 pm 
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Nico Hulkenberg impressed by Lotus's form

There's an AutoSport article that says Nico was impressed with RoGros stint

Quote:
The Lotus driver was the only man to complete a 66-lap run, which included one 24-lap stint in which his pace rarely dipped below the 1m29s mark.


That is very impressive. Both drivers have been able to get very fast and consistent runs.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:33 pm 
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Buttons comments I read today sound a little concerning to me. A bad car can be improved, but a car which is hard hard to understand may mean development goes in the wrong direction. I don't want to read much into one statement, as McLaren have looked good in testing so far, but will this hamper the development of the MP4-28 down the line.

"It's been very difficult to understand where the car is. At times it feels good; at others it doesn't,"


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:42 pm 
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Race2win wrote:
@ Johnston: How much is too much information?



when it becomes whinging apparently ;)

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:46 pm 
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Cozz wrote:
Nico Hulkenberg impressed by Lotus's form

so translated from testing-english to usual-english this would probably mean: "looks like a reliable car but i am happy to say that we are much quicker!"

of course i made that one up but you have to admit that there is no way one can trust such interviews...

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:51 pm 
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egnat69 wrote:
Cozz wrote:
Nico Hulkenberg impressed by Lotus's form

so translated from testing-english to usual-english this would probably mean: "looks like a reliable car but i am happy to say that we are much quicker!"

of course i made that one up but you have to admit that there is no way one can trust such interviews...


No but you can trust such car data.

As of right now, Lotus is the only team that looks like they can do a one stopper if the climate is cool enough for it such as European rounds.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:02 pm 
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Cozz wrote:
egnat69 wrote:
Cozz wrote:
Nico Hulkenberg impressed by Lotus's form

so translated from testing-english to usual-english this would probably mean: "looks like a reliable car but i am happy to say that we are much quicker!"

of course i made that one up but you have to admit that there is no way one can trust such interviews...


No but you can trust such car data.

As of right now, Lotus is the only team that looks like they can do a one stopper if the climate is cool enough for it such as European rounds.


Fortunately it will be Grosjean attempting it so he wont need his tyres after the first lap - sorry cheap shot but irresistable


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:17 pm 
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Cozz wrote:
egnat69 wrote:
Cozz wrote:
Nico Hulkenberg impressed by Lotus's form

so translated from testing-english to usual-english this would probably mean: "looks like a reliable car but i am happy to say that we are much quicker!"

of course i made that one up but you have to admit that there is no way one can trust such interviews...


No but you can trust such car data.

As of right now, Lotus is the only team that looks like they can do a one stopper if the climate is cool enough for it such as European rounds.

cool enough? i can't follow your thoughts on that topic - due to the low temps rogro had to pit 4 times during his race-sim, as the cars are sliding a lot more than they would in higher temps (which leads to graining and higher wear) ... the "impressive" part hulk was referring to is a 24-lap stint which apparently took place at the second part of the race-sim, with lap-times between 1.28.5 and 1:30.3 ... RoGro also stated that he had to adjust his driving style to keep tyres alive while testing...

so partly yes, that 24-lap-stint is the most anyone got out of the tyres yet - still i wouldn't draw any conlusions for the number of stops during the season...

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:17 pm 
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Adaemus wrote:
Race2win wrote:
@Adaemus: Well since you say Jenson was complaining during testing, enlighten us, what was the setup Jenson asked for and what was the set up given by his team.

You know perfectly well I have no idea what his detailed setup information is, but I'm assuming they didn't send him out with a Wacky Races set up on three wheels with the brake balance all to the front left.
It's more that Jenson has previous for this sort of thing...

You're basing your opinion on something that happened in 2012, which, to Jenson, was a major cause of concern. Also the fact that you dont know what the setup he asked for, so dont you think its immature to say he complaining and whining and according to you "always does"?

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:56 pm 
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FWIW - I think Macca are sandbagging a bit.............just a hunch though


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:57 pm 
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FringeUK wrote:
FWIW - I think Macca are sandbagging a bit.............just a hunch though


This, same for Red Bull


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:38 pm 
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You cannot tell from long runs on random tires in freezing cold temps whether a team will be able to one stop ANYWHERE or not. Impossible. There is no adjustment coefficient available to figure that one out.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:39 pm 
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Race2win wrote:
Adaemus wrote:
Race2win wrote:
@Adaemus: Well since you say Jenson was complaining during testing, enlighten us, what was the setup Jenson asked for and what was the set up given by his team.

You know perfectly well I have no idea what his detailed setup information is, but I'm assuming they didn't send him out with a Wacky Races set up on three wheels with the brake balance all to the front left.
It's more that Jenson has previous for this sort of thing...

You're basing your opinion on something that happened in 2012, which, to Jenson, was a major cause of concern. Also the fact that you dont know what the setup he asked for, so dont you think its immature to say he complaining and whining and according to you "always does"?


Your honour, I'd like to call my first witness... ;)

It wasn't just 2012; throughout his career he's struggled when the car wasn't fully underneath him. I'm not going to go and find all the evidence, everybody's heard him moaning over the radio over the years. I haven't seen you propose a counter claim anyway, so don't you think it's a little immature to demand someone provide impossible to obtain information to back up their opinion?

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:48 pm 
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Adaemus wrote:
Race2win wrote:
Adaemus wrote:
Race2win wrote:
@Adaemus: Well since you say Jenson was complaining during testing, enlighten us, what was the setup Jenson asked for and what was the set up given by his team.

You know perfectly well I have no idea what his detailed setup information is, but I'm assuming they didn't send him out with a Wacky Races set up on three wheels with the brake balance all to the front left.
It's more that Jenson has previous for this sort of thing...

You're basing your opinion on something that happened in 2012, which, to Jenson, was a major cause of concern. Also the fact that you dont know what the setup he asked for, so dont you think its immature to say he complaining and whining and according to you "always does"?


Your honour, I'd like to call my first witness... ;)

It wasn't just 2012; throughout his career he's struggled when the car wasn't fully underneath him. I'm not going to go and find all the evidence, everybody's heard him moaning over the radio over the years. I haven't seen you propose a counter claim anyway, so don't you think it's a little immature to demand someone provide impossible to obtain information to back up their opinion?


I think its petty well established that for Jenson to be at his best he needs a well balanced car.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:55 pm 
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Adaemus wrote:
the evidence, everybody's heard him moaning over the radio over the years.



See my previous comment about too much feedback equals moaning.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 3:27 pm 
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Id rather have the feedback than have the driver who ignores a problem and pushes past it. If he doesn't tell me I need to make something better, I don't, and that turns into a dead end where it could have been an open door.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 3:33 pm 
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Looking at how he and Nico have performed over the test I'd have thought this from Lewis a little pessimistic

Lewis Hamilton says his Mercedes is not yet fast enough to compete for victories at the start of the season. The Englishman said: "We're not looking at wins at the moment. We're hoping to get into the points and fight for top 10. It's not fast enough to be quickest over one lap but it's not slow, that's for sure."


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 3:35 pm 
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andrewinwork wrote:
Looking at how he and Nico have performed over the test I'd have thought this from Lewis a little pessimistic

Lewis Hamilton says his Mercedes is not yet fast enough to compete for victories at the start of the season. The Englishman said: "We're not looking at wins at the moment. We're hoping to get into the points and fight for top 10. It's not fast enough to be quickest over one lap but it's not slow, that's for sure."

Hamilton knows the fuel loads though. We don't. So he'd have a far better idea of where the car lies compared to everyone else, remember teams can fairly accurately guess the other team's fuel loads these days. They know where they lie.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 3:36 pm 
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andrewinwork wrote:
Looking at how he and Nico have performed over the test I'd have thought this from Lewis a little pessimistic

Lewis Hamilton says his Mercedes is not yet fast enough to compete for victories at the start of the season. The Englishman said: "We're not looking at wins at the moment. We're hoping to get into the points and fight for top 10. It's not fast enough to be quickest over one lap but it's not slow, that's for sure."


It is still testing. Nothing to look at the moment. If he thinks they are not there yet, I'd take his word

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 3:37 pm 
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Hamilton has stopped on track.


GPUpdate #live #F1 The Mercedes driver has pulled off the track between Turns 6 and 7

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 3:42 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
Id rather have the feedback than have the driver who ignores a problem and pushes past it. If he doesn't tell me I need to make something better, I don't, and that turns into a dead end where it could have been an open door.

I'd prefer a driver who tells me the problem is there but also just gets on with it and drives round the problem until it is fixed.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:03 pm 
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Moore wrote:
Hamilton has stopped on track.


GPUpdate #live #F1 The Mercedes driver has pulled off the track between Turns 6 and 7


anymore news on what this problem was?


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:06 pm 
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Day 4 Fastest times

1 Hamilton Mercedes 1m23.282s
2 Button McLaren 1m23.633s +0.351
3 Vergne Toro Rosso 1m24.071s +0.789
4 Gutierrez Sauber 1m25.239s +1.957
5 Bianchi Force India 1m25.732s +2.450
6 van der Garde Caterham 1m27.429s +4.147
7 Massa Ferrari 1m27.563s +4.281
8 Webber Red Bull 1m27.616s +4.334
9 Chilton Marussia 1m29.902s +6.620
10 Grosjean Lotus 1m34.800s +11.518


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:06 pm 
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Seems like the morning session was decent but cold and afternoon was just wet weather testing.

Hopefully FI makes a choice soon.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:10 pm 
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Can't believe Williams didn't set a fast lap today and chose to do pit stop practice the whole day instead. Seems mental when their 2013 missed the first test week completely.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:16 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
Can't believe Williams didn't set a fast lap today and chose to do pit stop practice the whole day instead. Seems mental when their 2013 missed the first test week completely.

Maybe they have all the data they are going to get from the parts they have ready.
Today the timings are all skewed anyway thanks to wet and damp track.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:16 pm 
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I was shocked as well. You'd think you would want all kinds of info from all types of weather on a new car. Especially seeing how Texas is a crap shoot with the weather especially the cold.

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