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 Post subject: Re: The empty spots...
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 6:15 pm 
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RickM wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
RickM wrote:
I like Laura's idea.

Although it doesnt necessarily have to be Caterham and Marussia. Ditch Toro Rosso - nobody would miss them :p

If we get another investment group trying to run an F1 team (I.E like with HRT) you can pretty much guarantee that'll end in closure.

We're much more likely to loose 2 teams than gain 2 right now. Especially since the likes of Toro Rosso have been up for sale for over a year with no apparent interest, and no interest in HRT either.

3 Cars per team could make it very interesting, but I guess it has the potential to be pretty controversial too!

Well the rules stipulate 3 teams would have to leave to allow for it

Nope. Just 2. We've already lost HRT. There'll be 22 cars on the 2013 grid.

If two more teams dropped out we'd be down to 18, below the 20 the Concorde Agreement stipulates for 2 car teams.


I'm going to go out on a limb and make a: Marussia and Toro Roso wont be on the grid in 2014. :P

I'm going to say Caterham and STR! I don't think Mallya will stick around in F1 much longer either if I'm honest, I can see Force India bowing out/being sold by 2015.

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 Post subject: Re: The empty spots...
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 6:17 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
RickM wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
RickM wrote:
I like Laura's idea.

Although it doesnt necessarily have to be Caterham and Marussia. Ditch Toro Rosso - nobody would miss them :p

If we get another investment group trying to run an F1 team (I.E like with HRT) you can pretty much guarantee that'll end in closure.

We're much more likely to loose 2 teams than gain 2 right now. Especially since the likes of Toro Rosso have been up for sale for over a year with no apparent interest, and no interest in HRT either.

3 Cars per team could make it very interesting, but I guess it has the potential to be pretty controversial too!

Well the rules stipulate 3 teams would have to leave to allow for it

Nope. Just 2. We've already lost HRT. There'll be 22 cars on the 2013 grid.

If two more teams dropped out we'd be down to 18, below the 20 the Concorde Agreement stipulates for 2 car teams.


I'm going to go out on a limb and make a: Marussia and Toro Roso wont be on the grid in 2014. :P

I'm going to say Caterham and STR! I don't think Mallya will stick around in F1 much longer either if I'm honest, I can see Force India bowing out/being sold by 2015.

Ahh yes. FI did have a bit of financial difficulty early last season if I'm not mistaken. I know they got a bit of an investment, but once that dries up they will be back in the same situation.

Their driver lineup may be very telling if they end up with a paid driver (not that there are many left without a seat however!).

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 Post subject: Re: The empty spots...
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 6:20 pm 
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If it's Di Resta and Senna they are in dire straights financially and relying on drive money. If they pick Sutil then they are still needing driver money but just not quite as much and if they pick Bianchi they'll have found funding from somewhere.

But with any mix of those line ups I don't see much success next year anyway and therefore not much WCC money for 2015...

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 Post subject: Re: The empty spots...
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 6:34 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
So Williams got lucky or they knew what they had with Maldonado after his rookie season so could afford to let go Barrichello?

I think the changes they made in Engineering had more to do with the 2012 car's success than anything else.


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 Post subject: Re: The empty spots...
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:10 pm 
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Z3RoadstarTXF1 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
So Williams got lucky or they knew what they had with Maldonado after his rookie season so could afford to let go Barrichello?


I'd say probably more luck than anything (though honestly I'm not that familiar with Maldonado's pre-F1 history to know if he came to F1 with a good bit of success at lower levels). But the 2011 Williams was such a dog that I'd say it for sure would have hidden any talent that Maldonado had regardless of whether Williams felt he had some real skill.

I'm not sure of the timing of when decisions were made, but at the end of 2011 there was question about whether Maldonado would lose his backing or not as the Venezuelan congress was looking into whether Chavez overstepped his authority in committing that sponsorship money.

So I'm not sure if Senna was brought in when that issue was still up in the air, and his sponsorship dollars were Williams' security blanket in case PDVSA pulled out or not, or if it was a case of his money being additional dollars on top of that.

I really don't see Rubens as being an either Rubens or Pastor choice for 2012. He had a very good career, but was largely filling space on the grid by 2011.

I think the danger for a team is getting 2 veteran pay drivers who are strictly mediocre and content to be part of the big midfield crowd if the car is good enough to get them into that crowd and if not enjoy the ride and just try to better their teammate.

Well Maldonado's career seemed to be try, try, try again and eventually you will succeed, nothing much was expected of him in F1 but who was to know?

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 Post subject: Re: The empty spots...
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:34 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Z3RoadstarTXF1 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
So Williams got lucky or they knew what they had with Maldonado after his rookie season so could afford to let go Barrichello?


I'd say probably more luck than anything (though honestly I'm not that familiar with Maldonado's pre-F1 history to know if he came to F1 with a good bit of success at lower levels). But the 2011 Williams was such a dog that I'd say it for sure would have hidden any talent that Maldonado had regardless of whether Williams felt he had some real skill.

I'm not sure of the timing of when decisions were made, but at the end of 2011 there was question about whether Maldonado would lose his backing or not as the Venezuelan congress was looking into whether Chavez overstepped his authority in committing that sponsorship money.

So I'm not sure if Senna was brought in when that issue was still up in the air, and his sponsorship dollars were Williams' security blanket in case PDVSA pulled out or not, or if it was a case of his money being additional dollars on top of that.

I really don't see Rubens as being an either Rubens or Pastor choice for 2012. He had a very good career, but was largely filling space on the grid by 2011.

I think the danger for a team is getting 2 veteran pay drivers who are strictly mediocre and content to be part of the big midfield crowd if the car is good enough to get them into that crowd and if not enjoy the ride and just try to better their teammate.

Well Maldonado's career seemed to be try, try, try again and eventually you will succeed, nothing much was expected of him in F1 but who was to know?


Could be. I'm probably wrong on this point, I'll just accept that.

It's just that I do believe with some of the pay drivers or midfield drivers, if you've got an 8th place car, they'll get you 8th place points... and if you've got a 6th place car, those drivers will get you 8th place points. And that IMO does leave some gaps in a team's ability to judge their development.

That said, in terms of the other theme here, I hope it doesn't go the route of 4 or 5 or 6 teams making up the entire grid, which would be the likely evolution once if all the less interesting teams are killed off and teams are running 3 or more cars as several teams I'd expect would become endangered by not being unable to afford the increase of extra cars, and making it less likely to attract new teams with the higher costs of running additional cars. (But I also know I know A LOT less than many fans around here, so I'll leave it as just my 2 cents and not risk further embarrassment.)


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 Post subject: Re: The empty spots...
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:41 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
RickM wrote:
I like Laura's idea.

Although it doesnt necessarily have to be Caterham and Marussia. Ditch Toro Rosso - nobody would miss them :p

If we get another investment group trying to run an F1 team (I.E like with HRT) you can pretty much guarantee that'll end in closure.

We're much more likely to loose 2 teams than gain 2 right now. Especially since the likes of Toro Rosso have been up for sale for over a year with no apparent interest, and no interest in HRT either.

3 Cars per team could make it very interesting, but I guess it has the potential to be pretty controversial too!

Well the rules stipulate 3 teams would have to leave to allow for it

Nope. Just 2. We've already lost HRT. There'll be 22 cars on the 2013 grid.

If two more teams dropped out we'd be down to 18, below the 20 the Concorde Agreement stipulates for 2 car teams.

Oops thats right

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 Post subject: Re: The empty spots...
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:51 pm 
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DaveStebbins wrote:
pokerman wrote:
So Williams got lucky or they knew what they had with Maldonado after his rookie season so could afford to let go Barrichello?

I think the changes they made in Engineering had more to do with the 2012 car's success than anything else.

Helped by the sponsors the drivers brought to the team?

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 Post subject: Re: The empty spots...
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:15 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
DaveStebbins wrote:
pokerman wrote:
So Williams got lucky or they knew what they had with Maldonado after his rookie season so could afford to let go Barrichello?

I think the changes they made in Engineering had more to do with the 2012 car's success than anything else.

Helped by the sponsors the drivers brought to the team?

That would mainly impact this year. By the time drivers have been confirmed, the car is already very much in development. Williams had a huge staff restructuring, and dont forget that Toto Wolff became a lot more involved as Frank take a step back. Money alone does not fix the situation Williams was in.

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 Post subject: Re: The empty spots...
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:55 am 
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RickM wrote:
pokerman wrote:
DaveStebbins wrote:
pokerman wrote:
So Williams got lucky or they knew what they had with Maldonado after his rookie season so could afford to let go Barrichello?

I think the changes they made in Engineering had more to do with the 2012 car's success than anything else.

Helped by the sponsors the drivers brought to the team?

That would mainly impact this year. By the time drivers have been confirmed, the car is already very much in development. Williams had a huge staff restructuring, and dont forget that Toto Wolff became a lot more involved as Frank take a step back. Money alone does not fix the situation Williams was in.

But it would help with the development of the car throughout the season

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 Post subject: Re: The empty spots...
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 2:59 am 
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pokerman wrote:
RickM wrote:
pokerman wrote:
DaveStebbins wrote:
pokerman wrote:
So Williams got lucky or they knew what they had with Maldonado after his rookie season so could afford to let go Barrichello?

I think the changes they made in Engineering had more to do with the 2012 car's success than anything else.

Helped by the sponsors the drivers brought to the team?

That would mainly impact this year. By the time drivers have been confirmed, the car is already very much in development. Williams had a huge staff restructuring, and dont forget that Toto Wolff became a lot more involved as Frank take a step back. Money alone does not fix the situation Williams was in.

But it would help with the development of the car throughout the season

Depends how much funding was being drip fed into the team month by month. Maldonado's cash from the 2011 was more likely to go towards the 2012 car though. Teams set out their budget for the year ahead months in advance. Williams probably wanted a more secure future for the following season.

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 Post subject: Re: The empty spots...
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:26 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
RickM wrote:
pokerman wrote:
DaveStebbins wrote:
I think the changes they made in Engineering had more to do with the 2012 car's success than anything else.

Helped by the sponsors the drivers brought to the team?

That would mainly impact this year. By the time drivers have been confirmed, the car is already very much in development. Williams had a huge staff restructuring, and dont forget that Toto Wolff became a lot more involved as Frank take a step back. Money alone does not fix the situation Williams was in.

But it would help with the development of the car throughout the season

Depends how much funding was being drip fed into the team month by month. Maldonado's cash from the 2011 was more likely to go towards the 2012 car though. Teams set out their budget for the year ahead months in advance. Williams probably wanted a more secure future for the following season.

I sort of forgot that about Maldonado's money from 2011 going into the 2012 car, we can assume then that the 2013 Williams will be reasonably well funded

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 Post subject: Re: The empty spots...
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 2:06 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
RickM wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Helped by the sponsors the drivers brought to the team?

That would mainly impact this year. By the time drivers have been confirmed, the car is already very much in development. Williams had a huge staff restructuring, and dont forget that Toto Wolff became a lot more involved as Frank take a step back. Money alone does not fix the situation Williams was in.

But it would help with the development of the car throughout the season

Depends how much funding was being drip fed into the team month by month. Maldonado's cash from the 2011 was more likely to go towards the 2012 car though. Teams set out their budget for the year ahead months in advance. Williams probably wanted a more secure future for the following season.

I sort of forgot that about Maldonado's money from 2011 going into the 2012 car, we can assume then that the 2013 Williams will be reasonably well funded

You'd have thought so. They had a strong 2012 financially, and moved up a place in the constructors which gives them another financial boost. Plus they have the deal with Bottas, who must be bringing a fair amount of cash to the team.

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 Post subject: Re: The empty spots...
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:30 pm 
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Talking of empty spots, there's a completely empty kart from BS:
http://sphotos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-a ... 0940_o.jpg


Strange, it was the only one without any sign of sponsor or livrery, look at Bianchi:

http://sphotos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-a ... 4862_o.jpg


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 Post subject: Re: The empty spots...
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:36 pm 
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shift wrote:
Talking of empty spots, there's a completely empty kart from BS:
http://sphotos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-a ... 0940_o.jpg


Strange, it was the only one without any sign of sponsor or livrery, look at Bianchi:

http://sphotos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-a ... 4862_o.jpg

Could just be that he's being kept on as test driver for a second season.

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 Post subject: Re: The empty spots...
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:18 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
shift wrote:
Talking of empty spots, there's a completely empty kart from BS:
http://sphotos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-a ... 0940_o.jpg


Strange, it was the only one without any sign of sponsor or livrery, look at Bianchi:

http://sphotos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-a ... 4862_o.jpg

Could just be that he's being kept on as test driver for a second season.

most karts incorporate team colours Bruno still has all his personal sponsors on his overalls.


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 Post subject: Re: The empty spots...
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:15 am 
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RickM wrote:
You'd have thought so. They had a strong 2012 financially, and moved up a place in the constructors which gives them another financial boost. Plus they have the deal with Bottas, who must be bringing a fair amount of cash to the team.

The Bottas/BS situation tells me that Williams thought this was going to be a rebuliding year, give Bottas F1 mileage in a low pressure environment, with the view of him racing alongside Maldonado in 2013, BS was there to give the team extra sponsorship money and for him to extend his Grand Prix career and put himself in the shop window for 2013, he had agree to the 15 missed FP1's cos it was either that or no F1 drive. Williams were expecting an improvement but I think they were shocked with how good the car was, if they knew it was so good, they probably would have dealt with the second driver situation a bit different.

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 Post subject: Re: The empty spots...
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:06 pm 
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Petrovs manager has apparently just said negotiations have stalled at caterham and that its untrue the reports that they managed to get petrov additional sponsorship.


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 Post subject: Re: The empty spots...
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:35 am 
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http://www.crash.net/f1/news/187241/1/p ... mpaign=rss

Yep, no new sponsors for Petrov, stall in the negotiations with Caterham.


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 Post subject: Re: The empty spots...
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:07 am 
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Caterham are about to announce line up today or tomorrow, coincidence is it that senna said he would be returning to Europe to finalize his 2013 plans today??


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 Post subject: Re: The empty spots...
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:29 am 
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potter84 wrote:
Caterham are about to announce line up today or tomorrow, coincidence is it that senna said he would be returning to Europe to finalize his 2013 plans today??


Source?
Aniway, i've read that:

http://f1team.leiaja.com/ainda-sem-equi ... z-em-2013/

Seems that also Force India option is still open for him.


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 Post subject: Re: The empty spots...
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:57 am 
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shift wrote:
potter84 wrote:
Caterham are about to announce line up today or tomorrow, coincidence is it that senna said he would be returning to Europe to finalize his 2013 plans today??


Source?
Aniway, i've read that:

http://f1team.leiaja.com/ainda-sem-equi ... z-em-2013/

Seems that also Force India option is still open for him.

i cant remember what website i originally read it on but pf1 has ran it too, an interview that CA said they are ready to announce imminently/any day now.


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 Post subject: Re: The empty spots...
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:16 pm 
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To be honest I'd rather have Caterham and Marussia than third cars, the latter just seems like a can of worms waiting to be opened with regards to on-track shenanigans for team orders. Especially if only two cars counted for the WCC. And if all counted then the smaller teams would have basically no chance at all to work their way up to getting more prize money.

That said, I can't pretend I'm hugely excited by any of these rumoured drivers. Senna is like a cat with 9 lives if he manages to get on the grid again.


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 Post subject: Re: The empty spots...
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:37 pm 
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KateLM wrote:
To be honest I'd rather have Caterham and Marussia than third cars, the latter just seems like a can of worms waiting to be opened with regards to on-track shenanigans for team orders. Especially if only two cars counted for the WCC. And if all counted then the smaller teams would have basically no chance at all to work their way up to getting more prize money.

That said, I can't pretend I'm hugely excited by any of these rumoured drivers. Senna is like a cat with 9 lives if he manages to get on the grid again.

true but i would like him to have 1 or 2 seasons in a team where he is settled and has fair treatment if he cant or hasn't after that then fully agree that he had his chance.


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 Post subject: Re: The empty spots...
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:44 pm 
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kingjamie wrote:
The Bottas/BS situation tells me that Williams thought this was going to be a rebuliding year, give Bottas F1 mileage in a low pressure environment, with the view of him racing alongside Maldonado in 2013, BS was there to give the team extra sponsorship money and for him to extend his Grand Prix career and put himself in the shop window for 2013, he had agree to the 15 missed FP1's cos it was either that or no F1 drive. Williams were expecting an improvement but I think they were shocked with how good the car was, if they knew it was so good, they probably would have dealt with the second driver situation a bit different.


Seems accurate to me. Bottas was clearly a driver for 2013 (you don't give just anyone 15 FP1's) but Williams wanted to see him in an F1 car first and get accustomed to the team. Senna brought money to the team - and also points, meaning further money! The problem for him is that Bottas is held in high regard at Williams, and was a fairly obvious choice to replace Senna.


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 Post subject: Re: The empty spots...
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:49 pm 
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potter84 wrote:
KateLM wrote:
To be honest I'd rather have Caterham and Marussia than third cars, the latter just seems like a can of worms waiting to be opened with regards to on-track shenanigans for team orders. Especially if only two cars counted for the WCC. And if all counted then the smaller teams would have basically no chance at all to work their way up to getting more prize money.

That said, I can't pretend I'm hugely excited by any of these rumoured drivers. Senna is like a cat with 9 lives if he manages to get on the grid again.

true but i would like him to have 1 or 2 seasons in a team where he is settled and has fair treatment if he cant or hasn't after that then fully agree that he had his chance.

I don't agree - I think he's more than had his chance. Maybe some of the odds have been stacked against him, but in three years he's never once made anyone sit-up and take notice.


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 Post subject: Re: The empty spots...
PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 9:48 pm 
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A new empty spot appears!
Timo Glock really seems to have broke his 3 years contract with Marussia, leaving Chilton alone.

Who is gonna fill that seat?


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 Post subject: Re: The empty spots...
PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 10:13 pm 
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shift wrote:
A new empty spot appears!
Timo Glock really seems to have broke his 3 years contract with Marussia, leaving Chilton alone.

Who is gonna fill that seat?


Way back for Kovalainen?

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 Post subject: Re: The empty spots...
PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 10:14 pm 
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BrazilLastCorner2008 wrote:
shift wrote:
A new empty spot appears!
Timo Glock really seems to have broke his 3 years contract with Marussia, leaving Chilton alone.

Who is gonna fill that seat?


Way back for Kovalainen?

No money. So no drive for him likely.

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 Post subject: Re: The empty spots...
PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 11:36 pm 
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If they had any sense they would take on someone like De La Rosa. They need someone with good F1 experience, not another rookie.

Even Barichello would be a decent option right now.

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 Post subject: Re: The empty spots...
PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:25 am 
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I am now hoping Force India and Caterham go for rookies. From the current crop of experienced drivers still hoping for a seat the only one I would miss is Kobayashi. Buemi and Alguersuari would be my reserves since I think they have some potential.

I wouldn't miss the bunch of Kovalainen, Glock, Petrov, Bruno Senna, Sutil, De La Rosa, Karthikeyan and Barrichello. I think they had their fair share of chances.

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 Post subject: Re: The empty spots...
PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:28 pm 
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Amon wrote:
I am now hoping Force India and Caterham go for rookies. From the current crop of experienced drivers still hoping for a seat the only one I would miss is Kobayashi. Buemi and Alguersuari would be my reserves since I think they have some potential.

I wouldn't miss the bunch of Kovalainen, Glock, Petrov, Bruno Senna, Sutil, De La Rosa, Karthikeyan and Barrichello. I think they had their fair share of chances.

the problem is they need money and talent the people you want to keep cant bring significant amounts, alot of the ones you want to be rid of can. KK has also had his chance Imo also just as much as say senna if not more as he has had a more fair and consistent time in f1. His backing is also from personal sponsorship and not really a long term thing which is probably what maurissa want


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 Post subject: Re: The empty spots...
PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:49 pm 
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Amon wrote:
I am now hoping Force India and Caterham go for rookies.


They'll likely go for whoever has the biggest wad of cash.

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 Post subject: Re: The empty spots...
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:50 am 
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Caterham - no idea
Marrussia - Senna
Force India - Sutil

just guess work.


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 Post subject: Re: The empty spots...
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:38 pm 
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Caterham removed this afternoon "russian elicopters" sponsorship from the website.

I bet Petrov has already signed for Marussia.


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 Post subject: Re: The empty spots...
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:04 pm 
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shift wrote:
Caterham removed this afternoon "russian elicopters" sponsorship from the website.

I bet Petrov has already signed for Marussia.

found out about an hour ago senna is in the uk, apparently his website and caterhams went down caterhams came back without any mention of VP sponsors while Brunos just says under construction. The big rumor is he has already signed and it will be announced tomorrow. Could just be coincidence though but seems increasingly likely


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 Post subject: Re: The empty spots...
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:22 pm 
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Looking forward for this.
Bruno needs stability and Caterham can be a good bet for the future.
But nothing official yet, only rumors.


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 Post subject: Re: The empty spots...
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:29 pm 
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Bruno sennas press office has said the maintenance of his website was already planned and isn't in connection to Caterham removing petrov's sponsors from their site, they claim he is in the uk on personal matters.


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 Post subject: Re: The empty spots...
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:30 pm 
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potter84 wrote:
Bruno sennas press office has said the maintenance of his website was already planned and isn't in connection to Caterham removing petrov's sponsors from their site, they claim he is in the uk on personal matters.

Well they are hardly going to say "you know what...chocolate fudge cake it, we admit it....he's got a contract with Caterham....but please dont tell anyone yet!" are they :D

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 Post subject: Re: The empty spots...
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:18 pm 
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RickM wrote:
potter84 wrote:
Bruno sennas press office has said the maintenance of his website was already planned and isn't in connection to Caterham removing petrov's sponsors from their site, they claim he is in the uk on personal matters.

Well they are hardly going to say "you know what...chocolate fudge cake it, we admit it....he's got a contract with Caterham....but please dont tell anyone yet!" are they :D

you never know :-P could be honest for a change or just say no comment stranger things have happened


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