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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:33 pm 
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Gothnak wrote:
All of the following events are currently legal, but have riled different parts of the F1 community, so which annoy you, and which do you think are clever uses of the rules?

Massa's 'Gearbox Change' In Austin
Schumacher pulling over for Vettel in Brazil
Toro Rosso Pulling Over for Red Bull all season
Ferrari complaining about Vettel's pass after the season's end.
Ferrari slipstreaming in Qualifying (if it ever worked!)
Webber being called in out of Vettel's way



Where did you hear that? From someone else other than Ferrari on the internet?

Red is genius.

yellow is legal.

Red is also legal.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 12:02 am 
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Bat014 wrote:
Gothnak wrote:
All of the following events are currently legal, but have riled different parts of the F1 community, so which annoy you, and which do you think are clever uses of the rules?

Massa's 'Gearbox Change' In Austin
Schumacher pulling over for Vettel in Brazil
Toro Rosso Pulling Over for Red Bull all season
Ferrari complaining about Vettel's pass after the season's end.
Ferrari slipstreaming in Qualifying (if it ever worked!)
Webber being called in out of Vettel's way


Can't see any controversy in here, Both teams did their best to beat each other and thats the spirit of F1


Agree except for the complaining about Vettel after the season's end. That, to me is damaging to the sport of F1. What I would really like to know is whether it was Ferrari management's decision of whether Fernando pushed them to do it. If it's the latter then it could be one more thing that damages their working relationship, especially given the fallout it generated with so many people denouncing it as a step too far. Having said that, Ferrari have plenty of form when it comes to putting their own interests ahead of the whole sport so perhaps Fernando is innocent here.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 12:06 am 
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xECKSx58 wrote:
Ferrari
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others



:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 5:37 am 
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I don't remember you feeling that way when Kimi won his WDC, Hakk...

The problems of following a driver not the team... you have hated Ferrari, then had to like (if not love) Ferrari, and now you have to hate them again... vicious roller coaster you are on my friend!
:lol:

now you are having to agree and enthusiastically support a ridiculous post!
;)

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 12:16 pm 
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Lotus38 wrote:
Balibari wrote:
Again, what did Ferrari actually do? All I've seen is the story about them asking the FIA for clarification (as to whether flags trump lights, and whether a green flag was indeed being waved).

Trust me, I don't normally need a reson to assume Ferrari are being unsportsmanlike, but I wouldn't mind knowing what they've done!


They are just Ferrari and Alonso drives for them. That's enough for most people around here, don't ask for a logical explanation, you won't get it.

Where there's smoke there's usually fire. Ferrari and Alonso have earned the suspicion.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 3:50 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
Lotus38 wrote:
Balibari wrote:
Again, what did Ferrari actually do? All I've seen is the story about them asking the FIA for clarification (as to whether flags trump lights, and whether a green flag was indeed being waved).

Trust me, I don't normally need a reson to assume Ferrari are being unsportsmanlike, but I wouldn't mind knowing what they've done!


They are just Ferrari and Alonso drives for them. That's enough for most people around here, don't ask for a logical explanation, you won't get it.

Where there's smoke there's usually fire. Ferrari and Alonso have earned the suspicion.


Cov,

Is it only Ferrari who merits their "suspicions"? Or the rest of the teams so clean as to deserve the benefit of the doubt by those same people?

;)

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 7:35 pm 
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Blake wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Lotus38 wrote:
Balibari wrote:
Again, what did Ferrari actually do? All I've seen is the story about them asking the FIA for clarification (as to whether flags trump lights, and whether a green flag was indeed being waved).

Trust me, I don't normally need a reson to assume Ferrari are being unsportsmanlike, but I wouldn't mind knowing what they've done!


They are just Ferrari and Alonso drives for them. That's enough for most people around here, don't ask for a logical explanation, you won't get it.

Where there's smoke there's usually fire. Ferrari and Alonso have earned the suspicion.


Cov,

Is it only Ferrari who merits their "suspicions"? Or the rest of the teams so clean as to deserve the benefit of the doubt by those same people?

;)

Well it's not that black-and-white IMO, some teams and drivers have been doing more controversial acts than others and it's up to you to decide if you want to give them the benefit of the doubt or not :)

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 7:47 pm 
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So basically, Ferrari, Renault, McLaren, and Red Bull merit suspicions in anything they do... as there have been questions at times surrounding all of them. OR is it still Ferrari because they are the so-called "bad boys" on the block?

We have heard the "gentlemen's" team applied to a certain team before, only to find out that the higher the pedestal, the greater the fall when the truth becomes known. So, when & where does a team earn status on the "earned the suspicion" list?
:)

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:25 pm 
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mds wrote:
Balibari wrote:
But I disagree with your main point there. Ferrari compromised the chances of their 'number 2' to give their 'number 1' the best shot possible. That's exactly what RB did when they brought Webber in.


Well, Ferrari impacted other drivers too - by moving them to the dirty side of the grid (and others to the clean side). RB bringing in Webber didn't impact others.
Also, Webber had the chance to just let Vettel by, instead he went on to do some purple times. His fault really (also, he had stuffed up his race for himself already).

edit: but to be clear: I see no wrong in what Ferrari did there. It was clever.


I know you have said that you dont think that the gearbox move was wrong, and im not having a go at you.
Regarding the issue of this move affecting other teams, I would just like to point out that no teams were aiming to qualify on a certain side of the grid, they were all just trying to post the fastest time.

The fact that there was a really dirty/oily/slippery side of the starting grid was a bit of a blunder imo by the race organisers (who did a fantastic job with the whole facility in general it must be said). If they had things on a better time scale they could have ran several more (not sure if they even had any??) warm-up/test events, or even had the tarmac laid down with time for it to weather in.

As noted above, teams are going for fastest laps, and whether they started on the clean or dirty side was mainly a coin toss. I don't think things at the penultimate race/business end should be affected so much by a coin flip as this, which is only an issue due to the failings i noted above. Yes the move affected other cars, but it was all random sides anyway, as least this way the contenders start out at it from an even grip.

And personally, i think it was good use of the rules.

It does seem a little bit naughty that RB gain points by using parts that are later deemed to be outside of the rules, but im not bitter about that. Tighter scrutineering is needed, but not easy to establish.

What does really upset me is that

1) Yes The Torro Rosso's let the RB's thru all season, but even more annoying that...

2) All the other teams on the grid know that RB gherkin all over the Resource Restriction Agreement in ways that are outside the rules.
In the gearbox situation, it is Ferrari's choice to sacrifice one of their cars for the hopeful benefit of the other. Please note that this move came very very close to costing them 2nd place in the WCC & $10,000,000. That's their choice and their gamble to make within the rules. RB's sneaky moves are outside the rules, and totally against the spirit of the rules.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:35 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
Lotus38 wrote:
Balibari wrote:
Again, what did Ferrari actually do? All I've seen is the story about them asking the FIA for clarification (as to whether flags trump lights, and whether a green flag was indeed being waved).

Trust me, I don't normally need a reson to assume Ferrari are being unsportsmanlike, but I wouldn't mind knowing what they've done!


They are just Ferrari and Alonso drives for them. That's enough for most people around here, don't ask for a logical explanation, you won't get it.

Where there's smoke there's usually fire. Ferrari and Alonso have earned the suspicion.


...or some Morons on the internet with nothing else to do???

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:45 am 
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Balibari wrote:
Again, what did Ferrari actually do? All I've seen is the story about them asking the FIA for clarification (as to whether flags trump lights, and whether a green flag was indeed being waved).

Trust me, I don't normally need a reson to assume Ferrari are being unsportsmanlike, but I wouldn't mind knowing what they've done!


Sorry, thought I had mentioned it.

Ferrari's investigation of Vettel's pass on Vergne. Not because they should not have pursued it - they should! - but the WAY they went about it.

Some fellow capture images from in car camera, post it on the 'net with their opinions, frenzy ensues. Ferrari should have inquired - privately! - of the FIA asking for clarification. Where they went wrong was posting to the Twitterverse and BBC that they had asked the FIA for 'clarification'. Ok, then, Seb did something wrong and we want to know why nothing was done!

Wrong. He did nothing wrong. Ferrari had to back pedal, but the damage was done. Congrats Ferrari PR machine, if Alonso wins it next year they will underline 'deserving' or something in their press releases. Alonso's tweet about 'rules' didn't help, either. It should have been quiet and professional until resolved. Instead it looks like a campaign of besmirchment. I was terribly disappointed in Maranello about how this was handled.

http://www.planet-f1.com/editorial/8295 ... -Losing-It

There have been two interesting comments on it from the F1 press. Dave Jorgensen's opinion on PF-1. Just because some Alonso lover rubbished it does not make it lousy reporting. It highlights how Alonso often behaves. And Adam Cooper, an F1 journalist for more than 30 years gives it another treatment:

http://adamcooperf1.com/

And makes clear why Bernie was unhappy. Both those pieces came out after I had posted my comments. After watching F1 for almost 30 years now, I have seen a fair amount of gamesmanship. What Ferrari did was intended to cast dirt on Vettel and see what sticks. 10 years from now we will be hearing from uninformed sources about how he cheated to win the championship.

The other thing that troubles me is Ferrari's 'acceptance' of it. Team Principal Domenicali said they 'did not want to belittle the championship winner.' Never calls him by name, never apologizes, never even congratulates him. Tacky.

You would think a company that savvy in PR could have handled it much better.

Regards.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:53 am 
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Oh, and a comment I forgot, the FIA response made clear why flags trump lights, something drivers are continually reminded about in the driver briefings. At Interlagos there were 23 marshal stands but only 16 light boards. THAT is why flags trump lights, there are more operative stations. And everyone concerned about the dashboard lights? I would guess they are synched to the light boards via a transponder. Pass the board, your steering wheel lights change. And why don't they change at the marshal stations without light boards? No power so no transponder. That was easy.

I love easy.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:38 am 
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bourbon19 wrote:
Hamilton unlapping himself while torturing the front runners was wrong. There was absolutely nothing to gain by his doing so at that precise moment. Macca had the timing - they knew Vettel was catching Alonso - but Hamilton became a backmarker racer with his fresh tyres and placed Vettel in dirty air. It was a farce. I don't have a problem with his unlapping himself, it was just that he had to care for the timing of it, as REAL backmarkers do all the time. Since he is rarely one, his team should have directed him.

He was free to race, no blue flags, what's the problem?

Haribo wrote:
Vettel was the childish one there. Alonso said he would have let Lewis through as he was no competitor.
While Vettel drove the other McLaren off track. Lewis was faster than vettel why should he stay behind?
Vettel made some other maneuvers this season wich can be called unsportmanlike

yep, and in any event as Vettel was a likely title rival it made perfect sense to complicate things for him.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:47 am 
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what has this forum come to......?


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