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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:48 pm 
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Original, dated 8th November 2012: http://www.grandepremio.com.br/f1/noticias/coluna-superpole-por-victor-martins-quem-e-melhor-alonso-ou-vettel

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A championship that’s going to have a loser between Fernando Alonso and Sebastian Vettel rises the doubt that looked eternal when comparing Ayrton Senna and Michael Schumacher – thankfully so. Now that the German engaged 7th gear on his way to his third title, the rivals claim that the pavement to the German’s glory is made by Adrian Newey’s ingenious machine as well as luck. Being that Vettel is equally a genius and doesn’t owe anything to Alonso in terms of talent.

F1 allows that we ask the question of who’s better between the two, and a public poll without error margin would hand Alonso the win. But the people’s answer is based on an imagination exercise: that Vettel wouldn’t do anything with this Ferrari car or that Alonso would already be champion with Red Bull at Hungary, for example. Less. Vettel is far from being a rider of perfect cars. The flaw in this evaluation is in not thinking about other reasoning paths that lead into believing that Vettel works better than Alonso to build a perfect car. Therefore, why not question Alonso’s efficiency as a setup specialist or not research why the cars the Spaniard drives don’t develop like the others? Why must a driver be evaluated only by merely what he does on the track during qualification and races?

Alonso won his last title in 2006 with a Renault a priori worse than Michael Schumacher’s Ferrari. There, the biggest name in F1 was about to rise, the one who slapped the best ever twice. But when he moved to McLaren and lost all the infinite privileges conquered by the not so respectable and ethical Flavio Briatore, Alonso couldn’t find himself. By entering into a conflict with Hamilton, he made McLaren lose an easy title to Raikkonen. Back to Renault in 2008, he won a race in the midst of Singapore’s scheme, another by talent in Japan and spent 2009 winless. After, he jumped to Ferrari. Three more years of drought. He couldn’t beat Red Bull in 2010 because there was a Petrov in the way at Abu Dhabi – and who loses a title stopped cold by a Petrov, doesn’t deserve to win anyway. And, last year, he couldn’t stand a chance against a Vettel motivated by the unexpected title from the year before.

2012 started with Ferrari slower than even Sauber, Mercedes, Lotus and Force India. There, McLaren had by far the best equipment and Red Bull was 0.5s worse on average. Meaning that the Bulls had a slightly complicated job to do for a team used to being ahead of the pack and Ferrari, a more than steep mountain to climb. With luck and competence, Alonso took advantage of the inconsistency and mechanical failures from his rivals to rise to the top of the tables with a car that improved a lot compared to the beginning, even more so because it had a much bigger window for development. Quietly, Red Bull caught up with McLaren, which showed some recovery and started to dominate for some races. But Hamilton again didn’t take advantage of it and Button, slow during some seven races, was too far to dream high.

Then the F1 vacation arrived, and Red Bull did its work. Knowing their efficiency was in the aerodynamics and the corners, Belgium and Italy served to extract the maximum possible amount of points until the Asian races arrived, with tracks different from each other, but all demanding the car’s precision. Done. The work developed by Vettel and delivered to Newey had its effect. Notice that Webber also took advantage of it, scoring seconds and thirds, but it’s evident that Webber isn’t expected to have the last word in the garage on where to move a flap or a wing’s height or how to efficiently utilize the tires. In a championship that started with seven different winners, Vettel made it boring with four consecutive wins and a formidable recovery at Abu Dhabi, finishing close behind Alonso staring from the pits.

In other words, Vettel built and rose Red Bull to the top in four years. Alonso never did this with Ferrari in three.

Technical master Ricardo Divila pointed at some stories and factors about the relationship driver/engineer that support the thesis that Alonso lacks the fine tune. “As much as you look at data and telemetry, the interpretation of what the driver feels is paramount, especially when the driver can identify what he wants to go faster”, he said. “There’s what’s called the perfect car, by the laws of physics, but every driver drives his own way – not necessarily the fastest theoretically possible, but the fastest in reality.”

Each driver, then, sets up the car in the manner they find best. It’s obvious Red Bull and Ferrari develop their cars according to the style of their first drivers, as what happened with Schumacher – who preferred an aggressive front – or Alain Prost – whose choice was a car with a more stable rear. Divila, by the way, remembered the contrast between the Frenchman and Keke Rosberg. “Keke was a juggler, with an incredible sense of balance, and very fast. But when he was at McLaren partnering Prost he was always slower, because John Barnard based the car’s setup on Prost and forced Keke to run with the same setup”, he told. “Discussing the subject with Keke at the time, he complained about a car that had a soft front, difficult and slow into the corners. He hated to drive against his instincts and reflexes. Only in the end of his last year they changed his track engineer, setting the car up towards his driving style, when he started to equal or beat Prost.”

The skill in developing a car to your own driving style is also exemplified to the extreme when Ferrari moved ahead with Schumacher, Divila emphasized. “Car, aerodynamics and tires were strictly developed to such point that he was able to dominate for a large period of time. After his retirement, the car became difficult to drive for the following drivers”, he pointed out, then saying adjustment is missing between Michael, Ross Brawn and Rory Byrne, the “true engineer at Ferrari”.

Then speaking of the current question, Divila underlined that Alonso is one of the best ever “in the criteria of aggression, skill and fighting spirit”, but he lacks “a little technical capacity”. Something the German competitor has in abundance. “By Newey’s comments, Vettel has that, he’s as fast as Alonso, but has a little difficulty in traffic, for he is less aggressive. But in comparison, Red Bull’s skill-technique match is superior to Ferrari’s”, he evaluated.

Divila, who worked with Newey, didn’t forget to compliment his work. “I must say he’s much better than me in aerodynamics”, he confessed and finished.

In conclusion, it’s no use for Alonso to credit to only Newey his new defeats. Vettel, it’s good to refresh the selective memory, won a race start-to-finish in a Toro Rosso when it was as slow as the then current Red Bull. His development is noticeable. And, dealing with the real facts, they should kneel themselves to the one who, with a triple championship in hand, becomes bigger than Alonso in numbers and statistics five years younger. And who already is one of the best drivers of all time.

Victor Martins

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:55 pm 
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Oh no this thread is going to go in a bd direction fast


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 2:07 pm 
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 2:34 pm 
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Piket87 wrote:
Original, dated 8th November 2012: http://www.grandepremio.com.br/f1/noticias/coluna-superpole-por-victor-martins-quem-e-melhor-alonso-ou-vettel

Quote:
A championship that’s going to have a loser between Fernando Alonso and Sebastian Vettel rises the doubt that looked eternal when comparing Ayrton Senna and Michael Schumacher – thankfully so. Now that the German engaged 7th gear on his way to his third title, the rivals claim that the pavement to the German’s glory is made by Adrian Newey’s ingenious machine as well as luck. Being that Vettel is equally a genius and doesn’t owe anything to Alonso in terms of talent.

F1 allows that we ask the question of who’s better between the two, and a public poll without error margin would hand Alonso the win. But the people’s answer is based on an imagination exercise: that Vettel wouldn’t do anything with this Ferrari car or that Alonso would already be champion with Red Bull at Hungary, for example. Less. Vettel is far from being a rider of perfect cars. The flaw in this evaluation is in not thinking about other reasoning paths that lead into believing that Vettel works better than Alonso to build a perfect car. Therefore, why not question Alonso’s efficiency as a setup specialist or not research why the cars the Spaniard drives don’t develop like the others? Why must a driver be evaluated only by merely what he does on the track during qualification and races?

In a day and age of little to no testing, the above paragraph is irrelevant. Development is done in the windtunnel and a straight line track, not by the driver.

Alonso won his last title in 2006 with a Renault a priori worse than Michael Schumacher’s Ferrari. There, the biggest name in F1 was about to rise, the one who slapped the best ever twice. But when he moved to McLaren and lost all the infinite privileges conquered by the not so respectable and ethical Flavio Briatore, Alonso couldn’t find himself. By entering into a conflict with Hamilton, he made McLaren lose an easy title to Raikkonen. He MADE McLaren lose an easy title? As in, he made Hamilton stick it in the gravel in China or fudge his race in Brazil? Regardless.. carry on...

Back to Renault in 2008, he won a race in the midst of Singapore’s scheme, another by talent in Japan and spent 2009 winless. After, he jumped to Ferrari. Three more years of drought. He couldn’t beat Red Bull in 2010 because there was a Petrov in the way at Abu Dhabi – and who loses a title stopped cold by a Petrov, doesn’t deserve to win anyway. And, last year, he couldn’t stand a chance against a Vettel motivated by the unexpected title from the year before.

1) Explain Webber's race. It was a miscalculated strategy on a track difficult to overtake. Do remember there was no DRS at that time. Does a driver who crashes into their own teammate or T-bones a car on a straight deserve the title? 2) He couldn't stand a chance due to Red Bull's flexi-wings, off-throttle blown diffusers, manual ride-height adjustment and retarded engine mapping. Red Bull have gone against the spirit of the rules on every occasion. Even this year Vettel was no-where until Red Bull repositioned to exhaust to technically legally blow the diffuser. Let's not even mention the DDRS introduced in Japan.

2012 started with Ferrari slower than even Sauber, Mercedes, Lotus and Force India. There, McLaren had by far the best equipment and Red Bull was 0.5s worse on average. Meaning that the Bulls had a slightly complicated job to do for a team used to being ahead of the pack and Ferrari, a more than steep mountain to climb. With luck and competence, Alonso took advantage of the inconsistency and mechanical failures from his rivals to rise to the top of the tables with a car that improved a lot compared to the beginning, even more so because it had a much bigger window for development. Quietly, Red Bull caught up with McLaren, which showed some recovery and started to dominate for some races. But Hamilton again didn’t take advantage of it and Button, slow during some seven races, was too far to dream high.

Then the F1 vacation arrived, and Red Bull did its work. Knowing their efficiency was in the aerodynamics and the corners, Belgium and Italy served to extract the maximum possible amount of points until the Asian races arrived, with tracks different from each other, but all demanding the car’s precision. Done. The work developed by Vettel and delivered to Newey had its effect. Notice that Webber also took advantage of it, scoring seconds and thirds, but it’s evident that Webber isn’t expected to have the last word in the garage on where to move a flap or a wing’s height or how to efficiently utilize the tires. In a championship that started with seven different winners, Vettel made it boring with four consecutive wins and a formidable recovery at Abu Dhabi, finishing close behind Alonso staring from the pits.

In other words, Vettel built and rose Red Bull to the top in four years. Alonso never did this with Ferrari in three.
Built? Again... he landed in a car second to Brawn in 2009, which was the class of the field after the first six races. There is no such thing as 'building' anymore, otherwise Mercedes with Schumacher, Brawn, Head and Costa wouldn't be trailing in the lower half of the field this year.

Technical master Ricardo Divila pointed at some stories and factors about the relationship driver/engineer that support the thesis that Alonso lacks the fine tune. “As much as you look at data and telemetry, the interpretation of what the driver feels is paramount, especially when the driver can identify what he wants to go faster”, he said. “There’s what’s called the perfect car, by the laws of physics, but every driver drives his own way – not necessarily the fastest theoretically possible, but the fastest in reality.”

Each driver, then, sets up the car in the manner they find best. It’s obvious Red Bull and Ferrari develop their cars according to the style of their first drivers, as what happened with Schumacher – who preferred an aggressive front – or Alain Prost – whose choice was a car with a more stable rear. Divila, by the way, remembered the contrast between the Frenchman and Keke Rosberg. “Keke was a juggler, with an incredible sense of balance, and very fast. But when he was at McLaren partnering Prost he was always slower, because John Barnard based the car’s setup on Prost and forced Keke to run with the same setup”, he told. “Discussing the subject with Keke at the time, he complained about a car that had a soft front, difficult and slow into the corners. He hated to drive against his instincts and reflexes. Only in the end of his last year they changed his track engineer, setting the car up towards his driving style, when he started to equal or beat Prost.”

The skill in developing a car to your own driving style is also exemplified to the extreme when Ferrari moved ahead with Schumacher, Divila emphasized. “Car, aerodynamics and tires were strictly developed to such point that he was able to dominate for a large period of time. After his retirement, the car became difficult to drive for the following drivers”, he pointed out, then saying adjustment is missing between Michael, Ross Brawn and Rory Byrne, the “true engineer at Ferrari”.

Then speaking of the current question, Divila underlined that Alonso is one of the best ever “in the criteria of aggression, skill and fighting spirit”, but he lacks “a little technical capacity”. Something the German competitor has in abundance. “By Newey’s comments, Vettel has that, he’s as fast as Alonso, but has a little difficulty in traffic, for he is less aggressive. But in comparison, Red Bull’s skill-technique match is superior to Ferrari’s”, he evaluated.

Divila, who worked with Newey, didn’t forget to compliment his work. “I must say he’s much better than me in aerodynamics”, he confessed and finished.

In conclusion, it’s no use for Alonso to credit to only Newey his new defeats. Vettel, it’s good to refresh the selective memory, won a race start-to-finish in a Toro Rosso when it was as slow as the then current Red Bull. Bourdais qualified P4 that day. The Torro Rosso B-spec was consistently in the points for the season and superior to the RB A-squad. Check your facts. His development is noticeable. And, dealing with the real facts, they should kneel themselves to the one who, with a triple championship in hand, becomes bigger than Alonso in numbers and statistics five years younger. And who already is one of the best drivers of all time.Laughable.

Victor Martins Certain you don't mean Christian Horner?


Biased. Nonfactual. Waste of a read.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 2:37 pm 
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Well if Victor Martins says so, it must be true!


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:14 pm 
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So funny to see guys get their panties in a twist because they don't agree with someone.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:32 pm 
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The amount of flak Alonso is receiving from all quarters since he lost the title is outstanding. I think most of the haters were biding their time in case he actually won the title in what was clearly not the fastest car. Imagine this piece from Victor MArtins (who?) in the light of Alonso winning, it would seem childish and petulant. The vultures are out in force :twisted:

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:55 pm 
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I found it a interesting read to be honest, its nice to read a opinion that's different to the same regurgitation of "Alonso's the best and Vettel's crap jsut riding Newey's genius".

I wouldn't say this matches my opinion but its a interesting perspective.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:57 pm 
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Wow RBR is doing great! All this anti-alonsist propaganda is precisely what Vettel called "dirty games" a few days ago...


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:06 pm 
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Who is Victor Martins?

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:10 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
Who is Victor Martins?
I don't know, but I hope he's not writing for free. They (Dr Marko & friends) should pay him.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:35 pm 
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 5:03 pm 
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Well, it's not inconceivable that Alonso is not that good in some aspects as Vettel, you know ;) While there are hardly evidence of this, except highly circumstantial, I also think that with all Ferrari resources behind him, Alonso's championship bids weren't that impressive (except this year's until 2-3 races ago).

Fact is, he hasn't won anything since joining Ferrari (okay 9 races and a few poles but that's it). The other fact is that Vettel denied him 2 championships already.

I said it before, and I'll say it again: Alonso is undoubtedly the best when the car is hard to drive/not so fast. But when the car is sorted out, Vettel is faster. And it's virtually impossible to win a championship with hard to drive car unless all your opponents trip badly (almost happened this year thought). If the car is good/easier to drive, Alonso loses his edge and even Massa seems equal to him.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 5:21 pm 
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superuser wrote:
I said it before, and I'll say it again: Alonso is undoubtedly the best when the car is hard to drive/not so fast. But when the car is sorted out, Vettel is faster. And it's virtually impossible to win a championship with hard to drive car unless all your opponents trip badly (almost happened this year thought). If the car is good/easier to drive, Alonso loses his edge and even Massa seems equal to him.
You can't be serious.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 5:24 pm 
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The thing that is most telling is that this is now aero dynamic orientated and there is no better than newey at this, that is why red bull keep winning, yes vettel is a very good driver but i do agree the deciding factor is newey. I think Alonso or Hamilton in that red bull would also have won the past 3 years. Not to take it away from vettel though, you can have the best car but you still have to win.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 5:25 pm 
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The problem is on this forum is people can't accept that Vettel may well be a better driver than Alonso, thus any differing opinions gets bashed as Vettel's success due to Newey etc. The fact is Vettel is far more successful than Alonso now and Alonso has failed to win anything at Ferrari so far. 3 titles certainty show that he probably is a better driver than Alonso.

Will wait for more to get their panties in a twist because they can't handle it.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 5:30 pm 
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Jomox wrote:
The problem is on this forum is people can't accept that Vettel may well be a better driver than Alonso, thus any differing opinions gets bashed as Vettel's success due to Newey etc. The fact is Vettel is far more successful than Alonso now and Alonso has failed to win anything at Ferrari so far. 3 titles certainty show that he probably is a better driver than Alonso.

Will wait for more to get their panties in a twist because they can't handle it.

he could very well be but too difficult to say as the red bull car has been so dominant its hard to tell how much is vettel how much the car, as i have said before mark Webber is not a good yard stick as i don't and never have considered him one of the best drivers


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 5:38 pm 
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First of all, we'll never know who's better than whom, unless they're at the same team. Opinions aren't a proof whatsoever.
We can't take someone's opinion as the truth (be it Victor Martins or whoever). We can't relate team's development to a driver's technical ability, so I won't take this article as a proof of anything.
OTOH, I won't take even more idiotic comments such as he's always lucky, he's an average driver in the best machinery, the real winner is the car designer, etc. There's no proof if drivers A and B switch cars, one will do better or worse than the other. It's all SPECULATIONS, no proof whatsoever, it's all BS.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 5:40 pm 
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That article was pretty interesting to read, then I scrolled down and saw Theodore's Hate comments, which, I must say, sadly, are quite Pathetic. Its an opinion for crying out loud. I wonder if this thought ever occured to these people that, there are people who are MORE knowledgeble about the workings in F1, than Us who sit at home, watch the race on TV or track, read the news and form opinions, which dont make sense at all.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 6:02 pm 
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Race2win wrote:
That article was pretty interesting to read, then I scrolled down and saw Theodore's Hate comments, which, I must say, sadly, are quite Pathetic. Its an opinion for crying out loud. I wonder if this thought ever occured to these people that, there are people who are MORE knowledgeble about the workings in F1, than Us who sit at home, watch the race on TV or track, read the news and form opinions, which dont make sense at all.
I agree on everything Theodore said. It's not hate but good reasoning.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 6:06 pm 
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Jomox wrote:
The problem is on this forum is people can't accept that Vettel may well be a better driver than Alonso, thus any differing opinions gets bashed as Vettel's success due to Newey etc. The fact is Vettel is far more successful than Alonso now and Alonso has failed to win anything at Ferrari so far. 3 titles certainty show that he probably is a better driver than Alonso.

Will wait for more to get their panties in a twist because they can't handle it.


:nod:


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 6:10 pm 
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Lotus38 wrote:
The amount of flak Alonso is receiving from all quarters since he lost the title is outstanding. I think most of the haters were biding their time in case he actually won the title in what was clearly not the fastest car. Imagine this piece from Victor MArtins (who?) in the light of Alonso winning, it would seem childish and petulant. The vultures are out in force :twisted:

why not? If the credits received is often hyped up then bringing it down to earth is also a must. Nothing to do with "hating" a certain driver.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 6:21 pm 
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I think the point on Alonso's lack of technical feedback is an interesting one. It's something I've heard about before; I remember reading a feature on Ferrari in F1 Racing recently in which it was said that Alonso's input in the team's engineering meetings is negligible. It does seem that Vettel is very good on the technical side of things and of course his qualifying is very strong, but in my view Alonso trumps him in everything else.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 6:22 pm 
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I predict this thread will go to 15+ pages :]


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 6:24 pm 
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MikeV1987 wrote:
I predict this thread will go to 15+ pages :]

with all SPECULATIONS of who's better than whom


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 6:25 pm 
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This is only going to get worse isn't it

I thought we weren't allowed to quote whole articles

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 6:31 pm 
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one thing is for certain... as soon as I saw who started the thread and the title of the thread, the conclusion reached by Martins was obvious!

Of course, Martins, whoever he is, is entitled to his opinion, just as any other columnist is... are the people here bashing those who they feel are bashing the article which is of course bashing Alonso by comparison to Vettel. So be it.

All said, I prefer the conclusions of many others who actually give Alonso come credit for the driving he did this year. And... for what it is worth, while I certainly respect Vettel for what he has accomplished, more power to him... I would prefer to have Alonso in my favorite cars... again, just an opinion.
;)

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 6:31 pm 
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ferdinand wrote:
MikeV1987 wrote:
I predict this thread will go to 15+ pages :]

with all SPECULATIONS of who's better than whom


Yup, I wonder how many mods are keeping a close eye on this thread


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 6:32 pm 
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MikeV1987 wrote:
I predict this thread will go to 15+ pages :]
I'll predict that somebody will provide the answer 'Lewis Hamilton' to the title question.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 6:33 pm 
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Let the battle begin...
:lol:

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/fernando-alonso-driver-of-the-year/

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:06 pm 
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Gary Anderson's take on Vettel and Alonso and their team's car development over the season:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/20501817

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:17 pm 
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I think Fernando has made a superb season. Vettel scored more points and wins, so he deserves the title, but to me, the driver of the year is Alonso. Race by race, I think his performance has been better.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:27 pm 
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Very interesting point that he's only won both his titles with Briatore, even though he's been to the two greatest teams since.

I do wish more people would just appreciate the pair of them, instead of going round and round in circles trying to figure out which one is better, when there isn't an answer.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:29 pm 
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:thumbdown:


Last edited by Adit N. on Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:21 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:45 pm 
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I was going to come back here when this thread was 3+ pages, but I couldn't resist...

So, who's Victor Martins? He's one of the leading reporters for Grande Prêmio, which, along with Tazio and Livio Oricchio's blog, are the primary sources of specialized F1 (and motorsport) content in Brazil. Of course, Brazil is not an English-speaking country, so he might not be as well-known as, say, Martin Brundle or James Allen. But this makes he and his team no less knowledgeable.

Of course it's an opinion, but every valid opinion must be based on facts. And Victor presents his, first by dismissing the speculative argument that, were their seats reversed, Vettel would be struggling whereas Alonso would be champion with several races to go.

His opinion is also supported by Ricardo Divila. If you don't know who Divila is, I suggest starting at his Wikipedia topic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Divila

So it's not like Victor is a nobody and his opinion is worth less than the English-speaking media because he doesn't speak English.

I must say, at first I disagreed with him, but then I remembered that much of Williams' success in the 90's was due to Damon Hill's input in the team. Williams had Newey, but they also had the perfect test driver in the person of Hill, who knew the cars inside out and would probably be the best person to extract the maximum from it.

I also remember reading that Vettel was the only driver on the grid to visit Pirelli's factory when Pirelli entered F1. This shows a driver who's concerned about the technical aspects of the sport and is prepared to react accordingly. And he's just 25 years old.

Floppy_Boy wrote:
Very interesting point that he's only won both his titles with Briatore, even though he's been to the two greatest teams since.

I do wish more people would just appreciate the pair of them, instead of going round and round in circles trying to figure out which one is better, when there isn't an answer.


The problem is that people have no issues accepting Alonso as a great driver, but think Vettel is a journeyman who landed a drive in a top team and is winning just because of that.

Vettel doesn't have to prove himself in a weaker team. He destroyed Bourdais, who was much more experienced and a multiple Champ Car champion, and was duking it out with the upper midfield in a Toro Rosso, beating even the Red Bull cars. Back then the STR had an engine advantage, but would you really put your money in Webber and a past-it Coulthard?

He scored a point in his first race. Of course, he had a good car (BMW), but compare to let's say D'Ambrosio this year, who was well out of the points in a car that could be 6th or 7th on the grid at Monza.

Who knows what may happen in the years to come, but right now Vettel is the top dog. Heck, Alonso was actually extremely lucky in Brazil, since Vettel spun on the first lap, was hit by Senna, ended up with a damaged car, and the Spaniard was largely benefitted by Hamilton and Hulkenberg's crash in front of him, but it seems fate course-corrected itself and handed the WDC to Vettel.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:01 pm 
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Evidence clearly point to Vettel when it comes to deciding who the better driver is but like Alonso, his fans rarely make sense. It's all about personal appeal, manicured goatees, public image and of course, branding. To many supporters of the drivers who've been on the racing scene longer, Vettel is probably seen as a "young upstart" for out shining his older colleagues and competitors. Red Bull, as far as some F1 fans afe concerned, are about energy drinks so what right have they t be winning F1 championship titles. truth of the matter is, Alonso and Ferrari have been outclassed in every way. It takes good team (minus Webber) support and an intelligent driver able to think on his feet in those nerve-wrecking conditions to recover and catch up as well as Vettel did. Sure he's had some luck on his side but so did Alonso. And ironically, when fate handed him the crash that took out Hulkenberg and Hamilton in Brazil and pushed Alonso into P2 he still could not win the race. His team have done all they could short of hiring snipers to take out all the other lead drivers and still he could not win. Alonso had a better car than Massa and Still he was in danger of being eclipsed by his unfortunate team mate who'd been sidelined again and again to the point where Ferrari had to break his gear box seal to give Alonso a leg up. I forget which race it was when Massa was told to pull back to give Alonso space. Alonso clearly can't handle healthy competition. Typical of the macho, showy, shallow set. Empty vessels do make the most noise.

I wasn't into F1 until recently but I can already see where the talent really lies. Vettel has done well for himself and RBR. There is justice after all.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:57 pm 
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Piket87 wrote:
Who knows what may happen in the years to come, but right now Vettel is the top dog. Heck, Alonso was actually extremely lucky in Brazil, since Vettel spun on the first lap, was hit by Senna, ended up with a damaged car, and the Spaniard was largely benefitted by Hamilton and Hulkenberg's crash in front of him, but it seems fate course-corrected itself and handed the WDC to Vettel.


Quite the contrary, Vettel was actually extremely lucky... to have not been out of the race but instead able to get back high enough in the points to hold off Alonso.

I am not discrediting Vettel's championship, but am as tired of many Vettel & Hamilton fans attempting to discredit Alonso's driving this year as lucky/gifted as much as you and other Vettel fans are of others saying it is all the car and not Seb. You have done exactly that with your "extremely lucky" statement.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:30 pm 
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chican wrote:
superuser wrote:
I said it before, and I'll say it again: Alonso is undoubtedly the best when the car is hard to drive/not so fast. But when the car is sorted out, Vettel is faster. And it's virtually impossible to win a championship with hard to drive car unless all your opponents trip badly (almost happened this year thought). If the car is good/easier to drive, Alonso loses his edge and even Massa seems equal to him.
You can't be serious.


I actually agree with him. Alonso can adjust himself in a car other drivers would call crap.

But when Alonso's teammate finds the sweet spot in car, it's going to be hard for Alonso to beat him. We've seen this at Mclaren and the last set of races this year. Massa, I fear was faster than Alonso in the last two races.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:42 pm 
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superuser wrote:
Alonso loses his edge and even Massa seems equal to him.


I love the "even Massa"
It's Alonso who made Massa look bad, he was always considered a quick driver.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:57 pm 
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Blake wrote:
Piket87 wrote:
Who knows what may happen in the years to come, but right now Vettel is the top dog. Heck, Alonso was actually extremely lucky in Brazil, since Vettel spun on the first lap, was hit by Senna, ended up with a damaged car, and the Spaniard was largely benefitted by Hamilton and Hulkenberg's crash in front of him, but it seems fate course-corrected itself and handed the WDC to Vettel.


Quite the contrary, Vettel was actually extremely lucky... to have not been out of the race but instead able to get back high enough in the points to hold off Alonso.

I am not discrediting Vettel's championship, but am as tired of many Vettel & Hamilton fans attempting to discredit Alonso's driving this year as lucky/gifted as much as you and other Vettel fans are of others saying it is all the car and not Seb. You have done exactly that with your "extremely lucky" statement.


And that was all because his team mate left him no room into the first corner, if not for that Vettel would have never been in the incident. While Alonso had Massa playing the team game and attacking in first corner to Help Alonso (By attacking the RedBull's) So Alonso is lucky really that Webber decided to not play the team game into the first corner.

It could go on and on, but they all are what ifs and buts.


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