planetf1.com

It is currently Mon Jul 28, 2014 12:24 pm

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic
Author Message
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:06 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 9:29 pm
Posts: 829
Location: Qart-Hadast
Cozz wrote:
chican wrote:
superuser wrote:
I said it before, and I'll say it again: Alonso is undoubtedly the best when the car is hard to drive/not so fast. But when the car is sorted out, Vettel is faster. And it's virtually impossible to win a championship with hard to drive car unless all your opponents trip badly (almost happened this year thought). If the car is good/easier to drive, Alonso loses his edge and even Massa seems equal to him.
You can't be serious.


I actually agree with him. Alonso can adjust himself in a car other drivers would call crap.

But when Alonso's teammate finds the sweet spot in car, it's going to be hard for Alonso to beat him. We've seen this at Mclaren and the last set of races this year. Massa, I fear was faster than Alonso in the last two races.

Massa was definitely faster than Alonso in the last races, but the Ferrari wasn't any better than in mid-season. Following that logic, Renault R25&26 weren't that good despite the fact they won each constructors championship (?)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:25 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:11 pm
Posts: 3029
There's no such thing as best car, best driver, best whatever. They all have differing strengths and weaknesses and when they balance out they make both drivers pretty great, and honestly they've both had pretty great cars. For every speed disadvantage Alonso had to the red bull, he had reliability to counter it. The statistics for SV are among the most impressive in history. In almost every evaluayion of job performance its the numbers that count most. Great. Do you FEEL the weight of statistics when you're watching a race? Probably not. You enjoy the feeling you get watching a driver or drivers you think is or are great. So do just that. Why must people always have to order drivers? You all know there is no one right answer to the question who is the best. Be real. Is your enjoyment of the sport lessened by the knowledge that others might value the strengths of a different driver? I hope not. Watch it, take it on board, and be grateful you had the opportunity.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:29 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2003 6:57 pm
Posts: 147
Alonso needed luck in Brazil to win the championship, and he almost got it. Yes, Vettel might have been lucky to not have crashed out of the race, but he would rather not have crashed and spent the whole racing nursing a stricken car.

On a side note, anyone else drives a car having lost part of the car's floor, damaged some aero bits and with the engine turned down as well as Vettel did in Brazil, they would be hailed as a genius. When Vettel does it, it is all credit to Newey!

Sometime I think Vettel has to win a race in reverse to get some credit from some people.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:33 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2012 11:18 am
Posts: 679
chican wrote:
Cozz wrote:
chican wrote:
superuser wrote:
I said it before, and I'll say it again: Alonso is undoubtedly the best when the car is hard to drive/not so fast. But when the car is sorted out, Vettel is faster. And it's virtually impossible to win a championship with hard to drive car unless all your opponents trip badly (almost happened this year thought). If the car is good/easier to drive, Alonso loses his edge and even Massa seems equal to him.
You can't be serious.


I actually agree with him. Alonso can adjust himself in a car other drivers would call crap.

But when Alonso's teammate finds the sweet spot in car, it's going to be hard for Alonso to beat him. We've seen this at Mclaren and the last set of races this year. Massa, I fear was faster than Alonso in the last two races.

Massa was definitely faster than Alonso in the last races, but the Ferrari wasn't any better than in mid-season. Following that logic, Renault R25&26 weren't that good despite the fact they won each constructors championship (?)


No, I think you're missing the point. When two drivers aren't happy with the car, Alonso will shine if he's one of those two drivers. But peak performance of Alonso vs. peak performance of other drivers, I think Alonso will struggle against some if only a few of them. In fact, I think Alonso would struggle against JBs best days. In no way I am say button is the better driver. Alonso can give better feed back than 98% of the field.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 12:15 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 3:29 pm
Posts: 442
ashley313 wrote:
There's no such thing as best car, best driver, best whatever. They all have differing strengths and weaknesses and when they balance out they make both drivers pretty great, and honestly they've both had pretty great cars. For every speed disadvantage Alonso had to the red bull, he had reliability to counter it. The statistics for SV are among the most impressive in history. In almost every evaluayion of job performance its the numbers that count most. Great. Do you FEEL the weight of statistics when you're watching a race? Probably not. You enjoy the feeling you get watching a driver or drivers you think is or are great. So do just that. Why must people always have to order drivers? You all know there is no one right answer to the question who is the best. Be real. Is your enjoyment of the sport lessened by the knowledge that others might value the strengths of a different driver? I hope not. Watch it, take it on board, and be grateful you had the opportunity.


Bingo!

I have no issue reading others' opinions. Especially credited journalists and members of the F1 community. It's the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain any thought without having to accept it.

It actually boggles my mind when people IMMEDIATELY jump down each other's throats over these types of things. Do you guys need more sex or something? Stop being so damned high strung! LOL

If I were to bestow a crown on a driver this year based on what they did with the perceived car they had, I'd hand it to Alonso with Vettel trailing just behind together with Hamilton. All three of these gentleman gave us an AWESOME season. And given they are all in different cars, it's so difficult to call. Yes, Hamilton and Alonso were teammates, but that doesn't mean things for both drivers were at 100% while they were teammates. Alonso may have found something at Ferrari that has raised his game from his McLaren tenure. And likewise with Seb. We don't know how much is Newey and his team or Vettel and his race engineer. All we know is it takes people to build a car, people to adjust the car, people to develop the car, and someone to drive the car. Red Bull is doing all oh so right at the moment. Given Seb's results in BMW, STR, and now Red Bull... I do find it difficult to believe his talent is still questioned to this day. It's not like we're watching Zsolt Baumgartner win three titles in a row. It's Vettel.

And choosing between Vettel, Alonso, and Hamilton is like choosing between who's a better painter between van Gogh, Monet, and Cezanne. Who cares?! Just sit back, turn the volume up, and watch the fireworks unfold. This is a serious golden era in F1 in terms of driver skill of the entire grid.

_________________
[ Kimi Raikkonen ]
2007 Formula 1 World Drivers Champion


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 1:45 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2012 7:16 pm
Posts: 105
Race2win wrote:
That article was pretty interesting to read, then I scrolled down and saw Theodore's Hate comments, which, I must say, sadly, are quite Pathetic. Its an opinion for crying out loud. I wonder if this thought ever occured to these people that, there are people who are MORE knowledgeble about the workings in F1, than Us who sit at home, watch the race on TV or track, read the news and form opinions, which dont make sense at all.


Please tell me how I'm 'hating' anywhere...

My question to you then is
1) Do you actually think drivers are 'developing' the car since testing was banned?
2) Do you actually consider that Alonso made Hamilton lose a 17 point lead in 2007?
3) Do you not agree that it is a fact that Red Bull have been on the sword's edge of legality since 2010? Or you actually believe that Vettel 'built' the RB5 into a race winner weeks into starting up at the Red Bull squad.
4) Do you not agree Vettel still has critics, despite his and Horner's repeated interview statements that "the critics have been silenced" (since 2010)?

It's opinion... but it's wrong. Also: Victor Martins isn't exactly involved in F1 either. He too sits and watches 19 races a year a home, with the likely exception of Brazil. If this was Martin Brundle, or Ted Kravitz (or even James Allen - I threw up a little there), I'd take an opinion piece a bit more seriously.


Last edited by theodore on Sun Dec 02, 2012 1:55 am, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 1:49 am 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2011 9:41 am
Posts: 1592
The premise of Vettel building Red Bull is backwards. Red Bull built Vettel. The Red Bull dream team was already there before Vettel rocked up.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 1:59 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:15 pm
Posts: 31
mkone wrote:
Alonso needed luck in Brazil to win the championship, and he almost got it. Yes, Vettel might have been lucky to not have crashed out of the race, but he would rather not have crashed and spent the whole racing nursing a stricken car.

On a side note, anyone else drives a car having lost part of the car's floor, damaged some aero bits and with the engine turned down as well as Vettel did in Brazil, they would be hailed as a genius. When Vettel does it, it is all credit to Newey!

Sometime I think Vettel has to win a race in reverse to get some credit from some people.



Hear hear. That's telling it like it is.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 2:07 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:00 pm
Posts: 2075
ashley313 wrote:
There's no such thing as best car, best driver, best whatever. They all have differing strengths and weaknesses and when they balance out they make both drivers pretty great, and honestly they've both had pretty great cars. For every speed disadvantage Alonso had to the red bull, he had reliability to counter it. The statistics for SV are among the most impressive in history. In almost every evaluayion of job performance its the numbers that count most. Great. Do you FEEL the weight of statistics when you're watching a race? Probably not. You enjoy the feeling you get watching a driver or drivers you think is or are great. So do just that. Why must people always have to order drivers? You all know there is no one right answer to the question who is the best. Be real. Is your enjoyment of the sport lessened by the knowledge that others might value the strengths of a different driver? I hope not. Watch it, take it on board, and be grateful you had the opportunity.

It's called selection bias. Once someone chooses a preference whether it's a sportsman, or a smartphone they sometimes feel the need to defend their choice. Not everyone falls prey to it, but a lot of people do and that's why forums fill up with flame wars over Android vs iOS, Windows vs Linux, or Hamilton vs Vettel vs Alonso.

I have a favorite driver, but I don't think he's the undoubtably best one on the grid and I won't get into shouting matches with someone who talks down about him. I will however correct them if they say something in correct about him or his performance. In fact I will do the same when someone says something incorrect about any driver whether I care for that driver or not. There are many other posters on this board who will do the same, and those posters are the reason I continue to come here.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 2:08 am 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2011 9:41 am
Posts: 1592
Honda Quick wrote:
And choosing between Vettel, Alonso, and Hamilton is like choosing between who's a better painter between van Gogh, Monet, and Cezanne. Who cares?! Just sit back, turn the volume up, and watch the fireworks unfold. This is a serious golden era in F1 in terms of driver skill of the entire grid.

Its not like that at all. Painting is about subjectively appealing to ones interests and emotions.

Formula 1 racing is about who can get around a race track fastest. If one driver can do it faster than another, then you can say they are the better drive.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 2:20 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:00 pm
Posts: 2075
infi24r wrote:
Honda Quick wrote:
And choosing between Vettel, Alonso, and Hamilton is like choosing between who's a better painter between van Gogh, Monet, and Cezanne. Who cares?! Just sit back, turn the volume up, and watch the fireworks unfold. This is a serious golden era in F1 in terms of driver skill of the entire grid.

Its not like that at all. Painting is about subjectively appealing to ones interests and emotions.

Formula 1 racing is about who can get around a race track fastest. If one driver can do it faster than another, then you can say they are the better drive.

It was that simple there wouldn't be so much discussion over the subject on boards like this one. As people are always saying "you can tell unless you see them all in the same equipment." So now you have the subjectivity of which car is better, whose team made the better strategy calls, or pit stops.

Even if the cars were all the same one driver might have more reliability issues, and then there will be an argument over whether or not that driver is a "car breaker."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 2:40 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 28, 2009 7:49 am
Posts: 2069
Location: Australia
Lotus38 wrote:
The amount of flak Alonso is receiving from all quarters since he lost the title is outstanding. I think most of the haters were biding their time in case he actually won the title in what was clearly not the fastest car. Imagine this piece from Victor MArtins (who?) in the light of Alonso winning, it would seem childish and petulant. The vultures are out in force :twisted:

Or is it possible that some people waited until the season was fully complete to make their assessment about the drivers this year?

Up until Abu Dhabi I felt that Vettel and Alonso had driven equivalently well. Alonso was trouncing his teammate by comparison for the majority of the season, but IMO Vettel's teammate was performing at a better level for a greater proportion of the season; come Japan and then Korea Alonso's performance comparative to Massa was not as much of a standout. Both had made what I would regard as complacent errors - Vettel should have been more careful lapping Karthikeyan in Malaysia and Alonso should have exercised more caution in the first turn in Japan. Both had had great drives - Alonso at Valencia and Vettel at Spa.

I've never subscribed to the theory that Vettel has a car advantage overall. Whilst his car was faster in qualifying, the Ferrari's starts compensated for that. On race pace there wasn't much in it overall in the season. In the early part there were races where the Ferrari was quicker and even in the latter part there were times when it was equivalent or marginally better. Also in the earlier part of the season the Ferrari was significantly better in the wet. Plus the Ferrari was bulletproof with reliability and historically there are examples of situations where both the faster but more fragile car has been better option for a WDC challenge over the season AND when the more consistent and reliable car has been the better option (for example 2005). I don't view driving out in front as Vettel did in Japan, Korea and India as any less impressive than a driver coming through the field because I think both are equivalently impressive skills of an F1 driver. The driver out in front has to rely entirely on their own judgement and doesn't benefit from any retirements or issues with cars in the race because they're behind them.

What tipped it over the edge in Vettel's favour for me was the run to the end of the championship. A Formula 1 season has always been a marathon and this one has been longer than any other. Both these drivers had really had an exhaustive task to get to the point that they were: Alonso performing with metronomic consistency race in and race out to maximise the points and Vettel having to fight back from such a deficit by driving absolutely flawlessly for several races in a row. They were locked in an extremely tight world championship battle and both bidding to become the youngest ever triple WDC. All the eyes of the sport and the world's media were on them. The stress, the strain, the pressure must have been about as immense as it has ever been. And yet they still had to perform.

For me it was Vettel who rose to this challenge while Alonso started to flounder. He had the setbacks of both the qualifying situation in Abu Dhabi and the spin in Brazil and yet he kept his head together and, in his words, "kept believing". While everyone in Red Bull was despondent in Abu Dhabi after qualifying, Vettel was determined and confident and then aside from a couple of errors he did drive a spectacular race for the most part. And whether or not he contributed to the incident with Senna, the fact remains that he had the presence of mind in the most pressurised situation imaginable to think to roll his car backwards down the hill and manoeuvre it a bit to give the cars coming at him more time to see him. In contrast Alonso started to struggle. He was outperformed by his teammate in qualifying and in races from Japan onwards (not in every race, but in some). Whilst I have no problem with Massa moving aside for Alonso in the context of the WDC, that isn't a positive when it comes to an assessment of his driving. Although the statistics will show him ahead of his teammate, the fact is that he wasn't. Overall Vettel had more setbacks and still drove better.

In addition to this, Alonso resorted to tactics to try to psychologically destabilise his opponent. Not only did Vettel not retaliate, but he didn't let it get to him. I regard the mentality of a driver as an important component in how well they perform. And for me, Alonso having to do that detracted from how well I judge him as a driver.

Overall, for me, with every race completed, Vettel was the better driver in 2012.

_________________
Twitter @Jo_Soucek


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 3:14 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 7:11 pm
Posts: 177
kai_ wrote:
Lotus38 wrote:
The amount of flak Alonso is receiving from all quarters since he lost the title is outstanding. I think most of the haters were biding their time in case he actually won the title in what was clearly not the fastest car. Imagine this piece from Victor MArtins (who?) in the light of Alonso winning, it would seem childish and petulant. The vultures are out in force :twisted:

Or is it possible that some people waited until the season was fully complete to make their assessment about the drivers this year?

Up until Abu Dhabi I felt that Vettel and Alonso had driven equivalently well. Alonso was trouncing his teammate by comparison for the majority of the season, but IMO Vettel's teammate was performing at a better level for a greater proportion of the season; come Japan and then Korea Alonso's performance comparative to Massa was not as much of a standout. Both had made what I would regard as complacent errors - Vettel should have been more careful lapping Karthikeyan in Malaysia and Alonso should have exercised more caution in the first turn in Japan. Both had had great drives - Alonso at Valencia and Vettel at Spa.

I've never subscribed to the theory that Vettel has a car advantage overall. Whilst his car was faster in qualifying, the Ferrari's starts compensated for that. On race pace there wasn't much in it overall in the season. In the early part there were races where the Ferrari was quicker and even in the latter part there were times when it was equivalent or marginally better. Also in the earlier part of the season the Ferrari was significantly better in the wet. Plus the Ferrari was bulletproof with reliability and historically there are examples of situations where both the faster but more fragile car has been better option for a WDC challenge over the season AND when the more consistent and reliable car has been the better option (for example 2005). I don't view driving out in front as Vettel did in Japan, Korea and India as any less impressive than a driver coming through the field because I think both are equivalently impressive skills of an F1 driver. The driver out in front has to rely entirely on their own judgement and doesn't benefit from any retirements or issues with cars in the race because they're behind them.

What tipped it over the edge in Vettel's favour for me was the run to the end of the championship. A Formula 1 season has always been a marathon and this one has been longer than any other. Both these drivers had really had an exhaustive task to get to the point that they were: Alonso performing with metronomic consistency race in and race out to maximise the points and Vettel having to fight back from such a deficit by driving absolutely flawlessly for several races in a row. They were locked in an extremely tight world championship battle and both bidding to become the youngest ever triple WDC. All the eyes of the sport and the world's media were on them. The stress, the strain, the pressure must have been about as immense as it has ever been. And yet they still had to perform.

For me it was Vettel who rose to this challenge while Alonso started to flounder. He had the setbacks of both the qualifying situation in Abu Dhabi and the spin in Brazil and yet he kept his head together and, in his words, "kept believing". While everyone in Red Bull was despondent in Abu Dhabi after qualifying, Vettel was determined and confident and then aside from a couple of errors he did drive a spectacular race for the most part. And whether or not he contributed to the incident with Senna, the fact remains that he had the presence of mind in the most pressurised situation imaginable to think to roll his car backwards down the hill and manoeuvre it a bit to give the cars coming at him more time to see him. In contrast Alonso started to struggle. He was outperformed by his teammate in qualifying and in races from Japan onwards (not in every race, but in some). Whilst I have no problem with Massa moving aside for Alonso in the context of the WDC, that isn't a positive when it comes to an assessment of his driving. Although the statistics will show him ahead of his teammate, the fact is that he wasn't. Overall Vettel had more setbacks and still drove better.

In addition to this, Alonso resorted to tactics to try to psychologically destabilise his opponent. Not only did Vettel not retaliate, but he didn't let it get to him. I regard the mentality of a driver as an important component in how well they perform. And for me, Alonso having to do that detracted from how well I judge him as a driver.

Overall, for me, with every race completed, Vettel was the better driver in 2012.


Top post...I agree with all your observations...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 3:21 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:23 am
Posts: 166
kai_ wrote:
Lotus38 wrote:
The amount of flak Alonso is receiving from all quarters since he lost the title is outstanding. I think most of the haters were biding their time in case he actually won the title in what was clearly not the fastest car. Imagine this piece from Victor MArtins (who?) in the light of Alonso winning, it would seem childish and petulant. The vultures are out in force :twisted:

Or is it possible that some people waited until the season was fully complete to make their assessment about the drivers this year?

Up until Abu Dhabi I felt that Vettel and Alonso had driven equivalently well. Alonso was trouncing his teammate by comparison for the majority of the season, but IMO Vettel's teammate was performing at a better level for a greater proportion of the season; come Japan and then Korea Alonso's performance comparative to Massa was not as much of a standout. Both had made what I would regard as complacent errors - Vettel should have been more careful lapping Karthikeyan in Malaysia and Alonso should have exercised more caution in the first turn in Japan. Both had had great drives - Alonso at Valencia and Vettel at Spa.

I've never subscribed to the theory that Vettel has a car advantage overall. Whilst his car was faster in qualifying, the Ferrari's starts compensated for that. On race pace there wasn't much in it overall in the season. In the early part there were races where the Ferrari was quicker and even in the latter part there were times when it was equivalent or marginally better. Also in the earlier part of the season the Ferrari was significantly better in the wet. Plus the Ferrari was bulletproof with reliability and historically there are examples of situations where both the faster but more fragile car has been better option for a WDC challenge over the season AND when the more consistent and reliable car has been the better option (for example 2005). I don't view driving out in front as Vettel did in Japan, Korea and India as any less impressive than a driver coming through the field because I think both are equivalently impressive skills of an F1 driver. The driver out in front has to rely entirely on their own judgement and doesn't benefit from any retirements or issues with cars in the race because they're behind them.

What tipped it over the edge in Vettel's favour for me was the run to the end of the championship. A Formula 1 season has always been a marathon and this one has been longer than any other. Both these drivers had really had an exhaustive task to get to the point that they were: Alonso performing with metronomic consistency race in and race out to maximise the points and Vettel having to fight back from such a deficit by driving absolutely flawlessly for several races in a row. They were locked in an extremely tight world championship battle and both bidding to become the youngest ever triple WDC. All the eyes of the sport and the world's media were on them. The stress, the strain, the pressure must have been about as immense as it has ever been. And yet they still had to perform.

For me it was Vettel who rose to this challenge while Alonso started to flounder. He had the setbacks of both the qualifying situation in Abu Dhabi and the spin in Brazil and yet he kept his head together and, in his words, "kept believing". While everyone in Red Bull was despondent in Abu Dhabi after qualifying, Vettel was determined and confident and then aside from a couple of errors he did drive a spectacular race for the most part. And whether or not he contributed to the incident with Senna, the fact remains that he had the presence of mind in the most pressurised situation imaginable to think to roll his car backwards down the hill and manoeuvre it a bit to give the cars coming at him more time to see him. In contrast Alonso started to struggle. He was outperformed by his teammate in qualifying and in races from Japan onwards (not in every race, but in some). Whilst I have no problem with Massa moving aside for Alonso in the context of the WDC, that isn't a positive when it comes to an assessment of his driving. Although the statistics will show him ahead of his teammate, the fact is that he wasn't. Overall Vettel had more setbacks and still drove better.

In addition to this, Alonso resorted to tactics to try to psychologically destabilise his opponent. Not only did Vettel not retaliate, but he didn't let it get to him. I regard the mentality of a driver as an important component in how well they perform. And for me, Alonso having to do that detracted from how well I judge him as a driver.

Overall, for me, with every race completed, Vettel was the better driver in 2012.


As a new person to this board, it is people like you who can write out well thought out posts and not be completely biased toward a driver that keep me around.

It can honestly be hard to deal with some of the "fanboy" comments around here. Especially as a vettel fan :)

As for the article I find it interesting, but I tend to be more middle of the road in my thinking. I mean I don't have to downplay or devalue the accomplishments of one driver to have a favorite.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 3:35 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 12:28 pm
Posts: 615
ashley313 wrote:
There's no such thing as best car, best driver, best whatever. They all have differing strengths and weaknesses and when they balance out they make both drivers pretty great, and honestly they've both had pretty great cars. For every speed disadvantage Alonso had to the red bull, he had reliability to counter it. The statistics for SV are among the most impressive in history. In almost every evaluayion of job performance its the numbers that count most. Great. Do you FEEL the weight of statistics when you're watching a race? Probably not. You enjoy the feeling you get watching a driver or drivers you think is or are great. So do just that. Why must people always have to order drivers? You all know there is no one right answer to the question who is the best. Be real. Is your enjoyment of the sport lessened by the knowledge that others might value the strengths of a different driver? I hope not. Watch it, take it on board, and be grateful you had the opportunity.


top post! :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

_________________
FORZA FERNANDO * FORZA FERRARI * FORZA FELIPE


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 3:46 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2009 5:52 am
Posts: 1306
ashley313 wrote:
There's no such thing as best car, best driver, best whatever. They all have differing strengths and weaknesses and when they balance out they make both drivers pretty great, and honestly they've both had pretty great cars. For every speed disadvantage Alonso had to the red bull, he had reliability to counter it. The statistics for SV are among the most impressive in history. In almost every evaluayion of job performance its the numbers that count most. Great. Do you FEEL the weight of statistics when you're watching a race? Probably not. You enjoy the feeling you get watching a driver or drivers you think is or are great. So do just that. Why must people always have to order drivers? You all know there is no one right answer to the question who is the best. Be real. Is your enjoyment of the sport lessened by the knowledge that others might value the strengths of a different driver? I hope not. Watch it, take it on board, and be grateful you had the opportunity.
This is the sort of post that should stop the thread descending into a 15-page playground spat.

_________________
What did you say... Douglas?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:53 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:11 pm
Posts: 3029
infi24r wrote:
The premise of Vettel building Red Bull is backwards. Red Bull built Vettel. The Red Bull dream team was already there before Vettel rocked up.

They are a family, and neither would have achieved this kind of success without the other. SV didn't build RBR, and RBR didn't build SV. Together they have grown into a mighty force. Its the relationship that gives them their strength, not one extremely talented driver, one legendary designer, one charismatic boss, or the depth of the "bench" beneath these men. That's the difference, and the same type of strength has been seen in other teams, at other times. Look behind the most significant records in the book and that's what you see.



As a side note, I highly recommend the two pieces on Adrian in the Dec issue of MotorSport. Very little of it has anything to do with RBR, but reading it will help anyone come to understand what this man brings to a team, not just in physical design value as so many people seem to think, and why he can't outrun the grid alone.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 8:18 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:09 am
Posts: 316
Vettel nvr throw away title chances.

Alonso did it in great style in 2007

2010 - poor starts....cant overtake petrov

2012 - forcing kimi wide in suzuka (something he despise very much when others did it to him)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 8:25 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2012 6:27 am
Posts: 593
Alonso is better than vettel imho. But vettel is in his league i have to admit..

_________________
Latest F1 vid I made http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4C4qJXyRLDg&feature=youtu.be


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 8:27 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 5:52 am
Posts: 86
One other interesting stat (courtesy of another well-known forum): In total overtakes for 2012 (without lapping, first lap overtakes, pits, the other driver obviously yielding, and technical problems), Vettel is joint leader with Webber with 74 overtakes each. Alonso is 9th with 45.

When only the overtakes of top 5 cars are taken into consideration (Red Bull, Ferrari, McLaren, Mercedes, Lotus) and only when both cars have equally fresh tires (max 5 laps difference), Vettel is again first with 17 overtakes and Alonso is 7th with 7 overtakes.

So, it seems that the guy learned to overtake somehow ;)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 8:48 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon May 09, 2011 4:41 pm
Posts: 468
Location: Royal Wootton Bassett
infi24r wrote:
The premise of Vettel building Red Bull is backwards. Red Bull built Vettel. The Red Bull dream team was already there before Vettel rocked up.


Nothing can be further from the truth. Red Bull Racing were struggling and had never won a race up to and including 2008, a year in which they scored less points than their sister team Toro Rosso. I am not saying that Vettel 'built' the team but things certainly changed for the better since he joined in 2009.

_________________
Vettel / Raikkonen / Button


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 8:59 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2010 6:31 am
Posts: 966
Blake wrote:
Quite the contrary, Vettel was actually extremely lucky... to have not been out of the race but instead able to get back high enough in the points to hold off Alonso.


One could legitimately characterize the entire event as lucky, but more than luck went into it, didn't it? From rolling and steering backward to avoid oncoming cars to mustering up his focus and determination when in P LAST at the start, Vettel did have a part in helping "lucky" along. Everyone gets by the HRTs, Marussias and Caterhams without much trouble, but they were not the only cars to pass, and drivers like Kobayashi and Rosberg did make work of Vettel's travels. The car was damaged and slow on the straights sans rain, so it was not exactly smooth sailing to put himself into championship position. His double pitstop didn't help, nor did losing his radio and there was more to contend with as well. So while I agree Alonso's position was not 'lucky' either (as he had his burdens to deal with as well), to characterize Vettel as lucky - either of them really - is incorrect in all but the most general and casual forms of speech.

Quote:
I am not discrediting Vettel's championship, but am as tired of many Vettel & Hamilton fans attempting to discredit Alonso's driving this year as lucky/gifted as much as you and other Vettel fans are of others saying it is all the car and not Seb. You have done exactly that with your "extremely lucky" statement.


Well yeah, but those are pretty extreme views. Just because they are oft' repeated - casually and dismissively - is no reason to join the crowd. :lol:. I agree they are all wrong. Lucky/gifted is never going to be enough. It is always the car + driver. Among the top drivers and top cars, the best package wins. However, when one says that, the crowd goes into a fury discussing best drivers and best cars apart. That has to be overlooked. It doesn't matter if you have a rocket on rails with a dynamic driver; if it is unreliable or if there are sufficient incidents/errors or miserable strategy calls involving that rocket and astrounaut, then that is not going to be the best package in the end. A less impactual package will result in the WDC champion. In that overall casual sense, it is lucky - but as I pointed out, the other factors (and there are many) really do have a greater impact on the season.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 9:22 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 28, 2006 8:01 pm
Posts: 824
superuser wrote:
One other interesting stat (courtesy of another well-known forum): In total overtakes for 2012 (without lapping, first lap overtakes, pits, the other driver obviously yielding, and technical problems), Vettel is joint leader with Webber with 74 overtakes each. Alonso is 9th with 45.

When only the overtakes of top 5 cars are taken into consideration (Red Bull, Ferrari, McLaren, Mercedes, Lotus) and only when both cars have equally fresh tires (max 5 laps difference), Vettel is again first with 17 overtakes and Alonso is 7th with 7 overtakes.

So, it seems that the guy learned to overtake somehow ;)


Sorry, but why 1st lap overtakes would not be taken into consideration?

_________________
I'm a racing driver. Always was, always will be.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:13 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon May 09, 2011 4:41 pm
Posts: 468
Location: Royal Wootton Bassett
mkone wrote:
Alonso needed luck in Brazil to win the championship, and he almost got it. Yes, Vettel might have been lucky to not have crashed out of the race, but he would rather not have crashed and spent the whole racing nursing a stricken car.

On a side note, anyone else drives a car having lost part of the car's floor, damaged some aero bits and with the engine turned down as well as Vettel did in Brazil, they would be hailed as a genius. When Vettel does it, it is all credit to Newey!

Sometime I think Vettel has to win a race in reverse to get some credit from some people.


+1 :thumbup: . Vettel rose several notches in my esteem not because of the 5 races that he won in 2012 but because of his performances in two that he didn't. Abu Dhabi & Brazil.
Of course, there are still plenty of biased people with their own warped 'logic' that puts it all down to luck.

_________________
Vettel / Raikkonen / Button


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:55 am 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2011 9:41 am
Posts: 1592
Zekenwolf wrote:
infi24r wrote:
The premise of Vettel building Red Bull is backwards. Red Bull built Vettel. The Red Bull dream team was already there before Vettel rocked up.


Nothing can be further from the truth. Red Bull Racing were struggling and had never won a race up to and including 2008, a year in which they scored less points than their sister team Toro Rosso. I am not saying that Vettel 'built' the team but things certainly changed for the better since he joined in 2009.

The car got better for 2009, thats it.

Its not like Webber struggled, he was leading Vettel in 2009 until his series of mechanical problems towards the end of the year. Also if Vettel wasn't at RBR crashing into him at Istanbul and taking away his wins at other races Mark would have won the title for them in 2010.

The teams improvement had nothing to do with Vettel 'improving the team'.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:05 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 5:26 pm
Posts: 804
Location: Ontario, Canada
^ yup, the usual suspects strawberry on Vettel's success again, what else is new.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:15 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2012 8:17 am
Posts: 28
i don't know who Victor Martins is, but i like him :)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:30 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:43 am
Posts: 208
i cant imagine how vettel would do in this ferrari :D , he will be running into the back of the toro rossos and the williams , putting it in the gravel in qualifying. did any of vettel's 3 cars in '10,'11,'12 was particularly hard to drive , did he ever complain of understeer , oversteer in his car ? nop

_________________
Ask no questions, hear no lies


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:35 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:33 pm
Posts: 4409
Location: Ireland
Zekenwolf wrote:
infi24r wrote:
The premise of Vettel building Red Bull is backwards. Red Bull built Vettel. The Red Bull dream team was already there before Vettel rocked up.


Nothing can be further from the truth. Red Bull Racing were struggling and had never won a race up to and including 2008, a year in which they scored less points than their sister team Toro Rosso. I am not saying that Vettel 'built' the team but things certainly changed for the better since he joined in 2009.

The raft of regulation changes gave Newey and the boys an opportunity to make serious gains on the leading teams. Newey himself has said that's the reason they are front runners. They never would have closed the gap to McLaren/Ferrari if the regs hadn't changed.

Vettel made the very wise move of jumping to Red Bull before 2009, even though the "junior" Toro Rosso team had beaten the "senior" team in 2008.

_________________
"I am a believer, but I start each Grand Prix with 195 liters of fuel behind me," he explains. "I don't rely entirely on God, I rely on Prost."


#14 for '14


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 12:46 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:00 pm
Posts: 2075
infi24r wrote:
Zekenwolf wrote:
infi24r wrote:
The premise of Vettel building Red Bull is backwards. Red Bull built Vettel. The Red Bull dream team was already there before Vettel rocked up.


Nothing can be further from the truth. Red Bull Racing were struggling and had never won a race up to and including 2008, a year in which they scored less points than their sister team Toro Rosso. I am not saying that Vettel 'built' the team but things certainly changed for the better since he joined in 2009.

The car got better for 2009, thats it.

Its not like Webber struggled, he was leading Vettel in 2009 until his series of mechanical problems towards the end of the year. Also if Vettel wasn't at RBR crashing into him at Istanbul and taking away his wins at other races Mark would have won the title for them in 2010.

The teams improvement had nothing to do with Vettel 'improving the team'.

Yes the car overall was good at the start of the '09 season, and Mark was doing well, but part of the reason he was leading Vettel was because of Vettels mechanical problems early in the year when was leading Webber in races. And I don't know where you the "get taking away his wins" bit from, I don't recall any Vettel is faster than you messages during that season, and the nose incident at Silverstone didn't impact Webbers season since he won the race anyway.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 1:13 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2010 6:31 am
Posts: 966
infi24r wrote:
The premise of Vettel building Red Bull is backwards. Red Bull built Vettel. The Red Bull dream team was already there before Vettel rocked up.


But it was just a dream. The factory was able to implement the engineering designs, purchasing and building parts as required. But they were missing the part between the engine and the wing, that slots in the cockpit. They knew what they wanted, but they couldn't design or build it, so they had to search for it. Once they found that, things began to gel.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 1:53 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2011 10:21 pm
Posts: 1707
mcdo wrote:
Who is Victor Martins?


This. Never heard of him. Never want to hear from him again either. Some of the crap in that was stuff I'd expect to see on here.

_________________
Official Kamui Kobayashi Fanboy


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 1:58 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2012 11:18 am
Posts: 679
Porsan wrote:
superuser wrote:
One other interesting stat (courtesy of another well-known forum): In total overtakes for 2012 (without lapping, first lap overtakes, pits, the other driver obviously yielding, and technical problems), Vettel is joint leader with Webber with 74 overtakes each. Alonso is 9th with 45.

When only the overtakes of top 5 cars are taken into consideration (Red Bull, Ferrari, McLaren, Mercedes, Lotus) and only when both cars have equally fresh tires (max 5 laps difference), Vettel is again first with 17 overtakes and Alonso is 7th with 7 overtakes.

So, it seems that the guy learned to overtake somehow ;)


Sorry, but why 1st lap overtakes would not be taken into consideration?


Because some cars are not on the clean side. Some drivers have a gain by simply ending up on the odd side.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:15 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:27 am
Posts: 409
infi24r wrote:
Also if Vettel wasn't at RBR crashing into him at Istanbul and taking away his wins at other races Mark would have won the title for them in 2010.

I'm afraid you're wrong this time. Vettel won the title with 256 points while Webber had 242 points. If they didn't crash and Webber won that race, his total points would be 267, but Vettel would've had 274. Vettel would still be the champion, but Webber would be runner up, not 3rd.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:56 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 3:29 pm
Posts: 442
@ kai... Top notch post!

infi24r wrote:
Honda Quick wrote:
And choosing between Vettel, Alonso, and Hamilton is like choosing between who's a better painter between van Gogh, Monet, and Cezanne. Who cares?! Just sit back, turn the volume up, and watch the fireworks unfold. This is a serious golden era in F1 in terms of driver skill of the entire grid.

Its not like that at all. Painting is about subjectively appealing to ones interests and emotions.

Formula 1 racing is about who can get around a race track fastest. If one driver can do it faster than another, then you can say they are the better drive.


So then you agree that Vettel is better than both drivers in your signature? And has been better for four straight years? ;)

I think you'll find Formula 1 a very, very subjective endeavor.

_________________
[ Kimi Raikkonen ]
2007 Formula 1 World Drivers Champion


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:47 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2008 10:07 pm
Posts: 668
May wrote:
Evidence clearly point to Vettel when it comes to deciding who the better driver is but like Alonso, his fans rarely make sense. It's all about personal appeal, manicured goatees, public image and of course, branding. To many supporters of the drivers who've been on the racing scene longer, Vettel is probably seen as a "young upstart" for out shining his older colleagues and competitors. Red Bull, as far as some F1 fans afe concerned, are about energy drinks so what right have they t be winning F1 championship titles. truth of the matter is, Alonso and Ferrari have been outclassed in every way. It takes good team (minus Webber) support and an intelligent driver able to think on his feet in those nerve-wrecking conditions to recover and catch up as well as Vettel did. Sure he's had some luck on his side but so did Alonso. And ironically, when fate handed him the crash that took out Hulkenberg and Hamilton in Brazil and pushed Alonso into P2 he still could not win the race. His team have done all they could short of hiring snipers to take out all the other lead drivers and still he could not win. Alonso had a better car than Massa and Still he was in danger of being eclipsed by his unfortunate team mate who'd been sidelined again and again to the point where Ferrari had to break his gear box seal to give Alonso a leg up. I forget which race it was when Massa was told to pull back to give Alonso space. Alonso clearly can't handle healthy competition. Typical of the macho, showy, shallow set. Empty vessels do make the most noise.

I wasn't into F1 until recently but I can already see where the talent really lies. Vettel has done well for himself and RBR. There is justice after all.

Yes, I had guessed that much.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:22 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:15 pm
Posts: 31
morgana wrote:
May wrote:
Evidence clearly point to Vettel when it comes to deciding who the better driver is but like Alonso, his fans rarely make sense. It's all about personal appeal, manicured goatees, public image and of course, branding. To many supporters of the drivers who've been on the racing scene longer, Vettel is probably seen as a "young upstart" for out shining his older colleagues and competitors. Red Bull, as far as some F1 fans afe concerned, are about energy drinks so what right have they t be winning F1 championship titles. truth of the matter is, Alonso and Ferrari have been outclassed in every way. It takes good team (minus Webber) support and an intelligent driver able to think on his feet in those nerve-wrecking conditions to recover and catch up as well as Vettel did. Sure he's had some luck on his side but so did Alonso. And ironically, when fate handed him the crash that took out Hulkenberg and Hamilton in Brazil and pushed Alonso into P2 he still could not win the race. His team have done all they could short of hiring snipers to take out all the other lead drivers and still he could not win. Alonso had a better car than Massa and Still he was in danger of being eclipsed by his unfortunate team mate who'd been sidelined again and again to the point where Ferrari had to break his gear box seal to give Alonso a leg up. I forget which race it was when Massa was told to pull back to give Alonso space. Alonso clearly can't handle healthy competition. Typical of the macho, showy, shallow set. Empty vessels do make the most noise.

I wasn't into F1 until recently but I can already see where the talent really lies. Vettel has done well for himself and RBR. There is justice after all.

Yes, I had guessed that much.


Ah, another Samurai/Gladiator fan.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:22 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 6:17 pm
Posts: 1275
Okay, so I decided I'd avoid this thread at first.

Having read the article in the OP, I have to say.... It is the biggest load of rubbish I have ever read in my life. Literally. That's such an easy thing to say, but in this instance it is actually true.

Drivers do next to nothing with developing cars now. F1 revolves so much around wind tunnels that the role of the driver is minimal. Schumacher's day is long gone.

And heck, if we want to use the logic in the article, then we could hail Alonso as a miracle worker for turning a midfield car into a title contender. And Button must be the greatest driver ever because he turned a backmarker into the clear best car.

I too believe that Vettel is better than Alonso. But the reasoning given by Victor Martins (who?) is completely delusional, devoid of facts and shows a horrible lack of understanding of F1.

_________________
I don't follow F1 so I don't know what I'm talking about


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:36 pm 
Online

Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:22 am
Posts: 2516
kai_ wrote:
Lotus38 wrote:
The amount of flak Alonso is receiving from all quarters since he lost the title is outstanding. I think most of the haters were biding their time in case he actually won the title in what was clearly not the fastest car. Imagine this piece from Victor MArtins (who?) in the light of Alonso winning, it would seem childish and petulant. The vultures are out in force :twisted:

Or is it possible that some people waited until the season was fully complete to make their assessment about the drivers this year?

Up until Abu Dhabi I felt that Vettel and Alonso had driven equivalently well. Alonso was trouncing his teammate by comparison for the majority of the season, but IMO Vettel's teammate was performing at a better level for a greater proportion of the season; come Japan and then Korea Alonso's performance comparative to Massa was not as much of a standout. Both had made what I would regard as complacent errors - Vettel should have been more careful lapping Karthikeyan in Malaysia and Alonso should have exercised more caution in the first turn in Japan. Both had had great drives - Alonso at Valencia and Vettel at Spa.

I've never subscribed to the theory that Vettel has a car advantage overall. Whilst his car was faster in qualifying, the Ferrari's starts compensated for that. On race pace there wasn't much in it overall in the season. In the early part there were races where the Ferrari was quicker and even in the latter part there were times when it was equivalent or marginally better. Also in the earlier part of the season the Ferrari was significantly better in the wet. Plus the Ferrari was bulletproof with reliability and historically there are examples of situations where both the faster but more fragile car has been better option for a WDC challenge over the season AND when the more consistent and reliable car has been the better option (for example 2005). I don't view driving out in front as Vettel did in Japan, Korea and India as any less impressive than a driver coming through the field because I think both are equivalently impressive skills of an F1 driver. The driver out in front has to rely entirely on their own judgement and doesn't benefit from any retirements or issues with cars in the race because they're behind them.

What tipped it over the edge in Vettel's favour for me was the run to the end of the championship. A Formula 1 season has always been a marathon and this one has been longer than any other. Both these drivers had really had an exhaustive task to get to the point that they were: Alonso performing with metronomic consistency race in and race out to maximise the points and Vettel having to fight back from such a deficit by driving absolutely flawlessly for several races in a row. They were locked in an extremely tight world championship battle and both bidding to become the youngest ever triple WDC. All the eyes of the sport and the world's media were on them. The stress, the strain, the pressure must have been about as immense as it has ever been. And yet they still had to perform.

For me it was Vettel who rose to this challenge while Alonso started to flounder. He had the setbacks of both the qualifying situation in Abu Dhabi and the spin in Brazil and yet he kept his head together and, in his words, "kept believing". While everyone in Red Bull was despondent in Abu Dhabi after qualifying, Vettel was determined and confident and then aside from a couple of errors he did drive a spectacular race for the most part. And whether or not he contributed to the incident with Senna, the fact remains that he had the presence of mind in the most pressurised situation imaginable to think to roll his car backwards down the hill and manoeuvre it a bit to give the cars coming at him more time to see him. In contrast Alonso started to struggle. He was outperformed by his teammate in qualifying and in races from Japan onwards (not in every race, but in some). Whilst I have no problem with Massa moving aside for Alonso in the context of the WDC, that isn't a positive when it comes to an assessment of his driving. Although the statistics will show him ahead of his teammate, the fact is that he wasn't. Overall Vettel had more setbacks and still drove better.

In addition to this, Alonso resorted to tactics to try to psychologically destabilise his opponent. Not only did Vettel not retaliate, but he didn't let it get to him. I regard the mentality of a driver as an important component in how well they perform. And for me, Alonso having to do that detracted from how well I judge him as a driver.

Overall, for me, with every race completed, Vettel was the better driver in 2012.

Great post.

Its heartening to read posts like this that are as objective as possible, rather than the normal fanboy rubbish. :thumbup:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:14 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 6:17 pm
Posts: 1275
kai_ wrote:
Lotus38 wrote:
The amount of flak Alonso is receiving from all quarters since he lost the title is outstanding. I think most of the haters were biding their time in case he actually won the title in what was clearly not the fastest car. Imagine this piece from Victor MArtins (who?) in the light of Alonso winning, it would seem childish and petulant. The vultures are out in force :twisted:

Or is it possible that some people waited until the season was fully complete to make their assessment about the drivers this year?

Up until Abu Dhabi I felt that Vettel and Alonso had driven equivalently well. Alonso was trouncing his teammate by comparison for the majority of the season, but IMO Vettel's teammate was performing at a better level for a greater proportion of the season; come Japan and then Korea Alonso's performance comparative to Massa was not as much of a standout. Both had made what I would regard as complacent errors - Vettel should have been more careful lapping Karthikeyan in Malaysia and Alonso should have exercised more caution in the first turn in Japan. Both had had great drives - Alonso at Valencia and Vettel at Spa.

I've never subscribed to the theory that Vettel has a car advantage overall. Whilst his car was faster in qualifying, the Ferrari's starts compensated for that. On race pace there wasn't much in it overall in the season. In the early part there were races where the Ferrari was quicker and even in the latter part there were times when it was equivalent or marginally better. Also in the earlier part of the season the Ferrari was significantly better in the wet. Plus the Ferrari was bulletproof with reliability and historically there are examples of situations where both the faster but more fragile car has been better option for a WDC challenge over the season AND when the more consistent and reliable car has been the better option (for example 2005). I don't view driving out in front as Vettel did in Japan, Korea and India as any less impressive than a driver coming through the field because I think both are equivalently impressive skills of an F1 driver. The driver out in front has to rely entirely on their own judgement and doesn't benefit from any retirements or issues with cars in the race because they're behind them.

What tipped it over the edge in Vettel's favour for me was the run to the end of the championship. A Formula 1 season has always been a marathon and this one has been longer than any other. Both these drivers had really had an exhaustive task to get to the point that they were: Alonso performing with metronomic consistency race in and race out to maximise the points and Vettel having to fight back from such a deficit by driving absolutely flawlessly for several races in a row. They were locked in an extremely tight world championship battle and both bidding to become the youngest ever triple WDC. All the eyes of the sport and the world's media were on them. The stress, the strain, the pressure must have been about as immense as it has ever been. And yet they still had to perform.

For me it was Vettel who rose to this challenge while Alonso started to flounder. He had the setbacks of both the qualifying situation in Abu Dhabi and the spin in Brazil and yet he kept his head together and, in his words, "kept believing". While everyone in Red Bull was despondent in Abu Dhabi after qualifying, Vettel was determined and confident and then aside from a couple of errors he did drive a spectacular race for the most part. And whether or not he contributed to the incident with Senna, the fact remains that he had the presence of mind in the most pressurised situation imaginable to think to roll his car backwards down the hill and manoeuvre it a bit to give the cars coming at him more time to see him. In contrast Alonso started to struggle. He was outperformed by his teammate in qualifying and in races from Japan onwards (not in every race, but in some). Whilst I have no problem with Massa moving aside for Alonso in the context of the WDC, that isn't a positive when it comes to an assessment of his driving. Although the statistics will show him ahead of his teammate, the fact is that he wasn't. Overall Vettel had more setbacks and still drove better.

In addition to this, Alonso resorted to tactics to try to psychologically destabilise his opponent. Not only did Vettel not retaliate, but he didn't let it get to him. I regard the mentality of a driver as an important component in how well they perform. And for me, Alonso having to do that detracted from how well I judge him as a driver.

Overall, for me, with every race completed, Vettel was the better driver in 2012.


Excellent, excellent post.

I would disagree that Vettel was better this year, but I think, overall, he has demonstrated that he is as complete, if not more so, than Alonso.

The key thing is that Vettel proved just how awesome his racecraft is this year, especially in races like Spa, Abu dhabi and Brazil. I already thought he had moved on from the darker days of Spa 2010 and before, but I never thought he could demonstrate top-level ability in that area, at least not so soon. Yet he was probably the best passer in F1 this year.

You cite his mental strength, but really I was not surprised that he performed so well in the crucial races. Just look back at 2010. He was error prone, and when he was getting the job done, his car was letting him down. It would be so easy to lose faith in yourself and your team, especially at 22, but instead he had a near perfect run to the end of the season. And then to suffer big setbacks this year like in Abu Dhabi, like in Brazil, what he did in those circumstances was brilliant. How many drivers, in those circumstances, would sense an opportunity? How many would then go and make the most of the circumstances?

IMO his driving skills are brilliant, up there with Hamilton and Alonso. But what seperates him is that he's so tough mentally. Arguably even better than Schumacher was in that regard. Without that, maybe he only has 1 WDC.

_________________
I don't follow F1 so I don't know what I'm talking about


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Alienturnedhuman, bighobbo10, Black_Flag_11, Blinky McSquinty, breeksy, Chunky, Clarky, DOLOMITE, Fiki, flyboy10, infi24r, Jeepkhana, Lesky, Liket, LKS1, Mizanthropic, nixxxon, orbthef1fan, pubpokerplayer, Rekonizakilla, RunningMan, shoot999, stevey, w1Y!, wrath and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
[ Time : 0.192s | 13 Queries | GZIP : Off ]