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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:27 am 
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One of the problems that the RB8 clearly had was its lack of straight line speed in its 'standard' high downforce setting which makes overtaking difficult. Equally, Vettel's comeback from the pitlane in Abu Dhabi proved that the straight speed and overtaking capabilities could be improved.

With the WDC running close the Red Bull team might not have wanted to risk an Abu Dhabi type setting for the remaining two races but will they rethink their strategy for 2013? Now they have time and are starting from scratch for the new season and IMO they should consider a setting that allows more straight line speed. Perhaps not as radical as at Abu Dhabi but at least an improvement over their standard setting even if it meant a slight sacrifice of downforce.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:35 am 
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Doubt it. It's worked for them for three years running so if it ain't broke...


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:36 am 
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Doubt it, the RB9 will probably be a direct evolution of the RB8 since the regs don't really change much, and their engine just doesn't seem to have the grunt the others have.

edit: Lotus has the same problem IIRC, regarding top speed anyway.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:54 am 
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They really need to get a handle on KERS, it's cost them dearly since it was introduced. So hears hoping it's a Full Powered KERS system that just works.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:57 am 
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Renault kers aren't as good as merc or Ferrari, should be interesting seeing the new designs for next year, should be better looking cars now the stepped nose is out.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 12:00 pm 
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RBR KERS just doesn't work if your name is Mark Webber.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 3:10 pm 
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I think there may be certain things they need to look at.

If DRS is now going to be limited in practice and qualy (to just it's allotted DRS zone, and not the full lap) then that's something I feel they need to work on.

Is their other device (similar to the Merc device) banned for next season? If so that gives them a double headache.

They probably have a load of other stuff up their sleeve for next season, so it will more than likely still be the fastest car.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 3:20 pm 
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Yellowbin74 wrote:

They probably have a load of other stuff up their sleeve for next season, so it will more than likely still be the fastest car.


Sad but It's probably true.


Last edited by Eva09 on Sun Dec 02, 2012 3:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 3:20 pm 
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I think that the DRS restrictions will force them to make the car more slippery.

Double DRS is also banned for 2013 (http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/ ... 13848.html) so that means even less straightline speed for RBR if they keep the same aero package for next year.

Should be interesting to watch testing at Jerez next year.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 3:50 pm 
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RBR style "DDRS" is not banned. Neither is the Lotus setup. Only Merc's secondary use is specifically banned.


RBR will not suddenly start designing a straight-line car. Newey cars (as most others' are) are evolutions, and the theory isn't going to change dramatically next year as the rules don't either. Its quite fortunate that the rules are fairly steady as RBR and Ferrari would likely be a bit on the back foot coming into next season having had to develop their 2012 cars full stop to the end while their main rivals had less to play for. McLaren, Merc, Lotus have probably had more resources working on 2013 for a longer period of time. It'll be interesting to see if any of the teams really change their concepts for next year. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense given the big changes coming after that, but I'm sure some will surprise us. McLaren in particular is known lately for throwing the baby out with the bathwater and starting clean.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:00 pm 
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If that's the case, then I stand corrected.

However, the fact remains that there will be much fewer opportunities for RBR to exploit DRS during qualifying.

I wasn't implying that Newey would be designing a brand new car, but rather, do something to compensate for the fact that DRS won't be so readily available to ensure putting their drivers on the front row.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:05 pm 
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aftershocksinthebath wrote:
They really need to get a handle on KERS, it's cost them dearly since it was introduced. So hears hoping it's a Full Powered KERS system that just works.

It already is a full powered KERS system. Its just more complex than the standard Renault package used by Lotus and Caterham.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:07 pm 
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Wasn't RBR's DDRS the same concept as Mercedes'? Meaning it will be banned next season. Lotus' passive system isn't banned (yet..) for next year.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:19 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
RBR style "DDRS" is not banned. Neither is the Lotus setup. Only Merc's secondary use is specifically banned.


RBR will not suddenly start designing a straight-line car. Newey cars (as most others' are) are evolutions, and the theory isn't going to change dramatically next year as the rules don't either. Its quite fortunate that the rules are fairly steady as RBR and Ferrari would likely be a bit on the back foot coming into next season having had to develop their 2012 cars full stop to the end while their main rivals had less to play for. McLaren, Merc, Lotus have probably had more resources working on 2013 for a longer period of time. It'll be interesting to see if any of the teams really change their concepts for next year. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense given the big changes coming after that, but I'm sure some will surprise us. McLaren in particular is known lately for throwing the baby out with the bathwater and starting clean.

Since the Red Bull system uses a secondary effect of opening the DRS (opening a hole in the end plate) it is banned for next year.

The passive system that Lotus & Mercedes played with some this season is allowed (for now at least) because it is not triggered by an action by the driver, and there are no moving parts to it.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:23 pm 
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It's a little different - the endplate ducts aren't the crucial part to what they have been doing. Edit: I just realized that won't make sense to anybody else. Yes, they were using vertical ducting in the endplate that will be illegal next year, but they've tested some different ideas to stall the same elements of the rear wing/diffuser, which they can still try next year. With the qualifying restrictions on DRS use, secondary uses won't matter much either way. But its ironic that Mark Webber was one of the drivers pushing for the change there. Boo mark, boooooo!

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Last edited by ashley313 on Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:33 pm 
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Maybe they will again make two different chassis models to find out which design is the better.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:36 pm 
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froze wrote:
Maybe they will again make two different chassis models to find out which design is the better.



When did RB have two different chassis?

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:37 pm 
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The number of different gear ratios allowed over the course of the year is being reduced massively for next year right? Down from over 25 to 8? This might force them to pick a more conventional range of ratios...


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:39 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
froze wrote:
Maybe they will again make two different chassis models to find out which design is the better.



When did RB have two different chassis?

In 2012 winter testing. Granted it wasn't a completely different chassis, but it was radically different on some aspects and they evaluated both designs as far as I know.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:47 pm 
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froze wrote:
Johnston wrote:
froze wrote:
Maybe they will again make two different chassis models to find out which design is the better.



When did RB have two different chassis?

In 2012 winter testing. Granted it wasn't a completely different chassis, but it was radically different on some aspects and they evaluated both designs as far as I know.



chassis were identical. All they did was have two exhaust layouts and flew out the second design rather than swap the parts on the chassis they had been using overnight.

Their original design wasn't given the ok by the FIA so the first one tested was a quicky to get them running whilst the latter one was being prepared.

A lot of the BS that surrounded the whole thing was based on rumours the first version was a RB7 to 2012 rules because they were hiding something big on the RB8. McLaren did something similar with their exhausts, they just didn't fly out a new car with the newer layout.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 5:46 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
froze wrote:
Johnston wrote:
froze wrote:
Maybe they will again make two different chassis models to find out which design is the better.

When did RB have two different chassis?

In 2012 winter testing. Granted it wasn't a completely different chassis, but it was radically different on some aspects and they evaluated both designs as far as I know.

chassis were identical. All they did was have two exhaust layouts and flew out the second design rather than swap the parts on the chassis they had been using overnight.

Their original design wasn't given the ok by the FIA so the first one tested was a quicky to get them running whilst the latter one was being prepared.

A lot of the BS that surrounded the whole thing was based on rumours the first version was a RB7 to 2012 rules because they were hiding something big on the RB8. McLaren did something similar with their exhausts, they just didn't fly out a new car with the newer layout.

http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/ ... 13066.html
http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2012/3/13066.html wrote:
Mark Webber who was running a new chassis and development components on a heavily revised Red Bull RB8. “We had a pretty good run today and once again we learned a lot,” said Webber. “I have to say the car was not massively different to the one I drove on Thursday.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 7:07 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
It's a little different - the endplate ducts aren't the crucial part to what they have been doing. Edit: I just realized that won't make sense to anybody else. Yes, they were using vertical ducting in the endplate that will be illegal next year, but they've tested some different ideas to stall the same elements of the rear wing/diffuser, which they can still try next year. With the qualifying restrictions on DRS use, secondary uses won't matter much either way. But its ironic that Mark Webber was one of the drivers pushing for the change there. Boo mark, boooooo!


Why would you say that? Lotus' passive system doesn't take any hit from either DDRS ban or DRS restrictions in FP/quali. It's a passive system, it activates when the car is going fast enough, effectively activating a DRS-like effect (but of course not as powerful).

EDIT: Actually, by "secondary effects", did you mean the Mercedes / RBR -style DDRS that they had this season? If so, then I understand your post a bit better :)


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 8:24 pm 
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Yellowbin74 wrote:
They probably have a load of other stuff up their sleeve for next season, so it will more than likely still be the fastest car.


Well, it depends on your definition of the "fastest car". The RB8 was probably the fastest car in qualifying in the second part of the season but it was not the fastest car during the race. In Austin for example, the commentators said that Hamilton's McLaren was doing 313 kph in the long straight where Vettel's RB8 recorded a max speed of only 295 kph. Even allowing for its cornering advantages, that is quite a difference and something that other teams - especially McLaren & Ferrari with their faster cars in straights - are sure to work towrds exploiting to their advantage. To some extent, that was already obvious - with McLaren at least - in 2012 as compared with 2011. I don't think Red Bull and Newey can afford to rest on their laurels for 2013 and IMO it would be a risk sticking to the same sort of settings once more. There are also the new regulations and limitations to contend with.

I am sure that Adrian Newey knows that more than anyone else. But it would be interesting to see the sort of solutions he implements in trying to improve the car's performance.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 8:29 pm 
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froze wrote:
http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/ ... 13066.html
http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2012/3/13066.html wrote:
Mark Webber who was running a new chassis and development components on a heavily revised Red Bull RB8. “We had a pretty good run today and once again we learned a lot,” said Webber. “I have to say the car was not massively different to the one I drove on Thursday.



It was a new chassis in the way if they were running RB8 chassis #1 all testing then #2 comes of the production line and into the garage it's "New" . It wasn't a new design just a brand spanking fresh chassis.

Like driver writes of a chassis in a race and instead of giving him a used one the next race they give him a "New" one. It's new but identical to the old one.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 9:38 pm 
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With the change in quali regs regarding DRS use, I think they will have to. Any advantage they got through the corners by using high downforce set ups was not much of a hindrance on the straights due to the use of DRS, without that straight line help I doubt they will be able to get on pole and control the race from up front.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:11 am 
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aftershocksinthebath wrote:
They really need to get a handle on KERS, it's cost them dearly since it was introduced. So hears hoping it's a Full Powered KERS system that just works.


Considering the amount of success they've had I'm not so sure it's 'cost them dearly' although it is something they've had a lot of problems with compared to other top teams.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:40 am 
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DRS usage in fps and qualifying will be limited in 2013

If you think the gap to rbr is huge.....dont be surprise that the gap will be bigger than ever in 2013


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:09 am 
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I started a thread after the Abu Dhabi GP, which essentially asked the same question but for the last 2 GP's of the season (not for 2013). My opinion was that they'd better go for a mixed setup with less downforce but higher top speeds.

They went for the high DF setups and that obviously worked out well, but with what happened in T4 in the first lap in Brazil, they should be very happy it rained. Dry weather and Vettel, with the RBR with its lack of top speed and hence lack of overtaking possibilities, would have had major difficulties to return to the top-10.

Anyway, I think it's something they really should focus on. The Ferrari wasn't good in qualifying but it has shown itself to be really great car as far as top speed and overtaking is concerned.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:43 am 
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mds wrote:
My opinion was that they'd better go for a mixed setup with less downforce but higher top speeds.


In short, that is what I also felt. The present setup works well in qualifying and in the race provided the driver qualifies in the first row. But the RB8 was clearly inferior if caught-up in a train of cars or had to ovetake from the back. That said, the enforced change of settings for Abu Dhabi and Vettel's barnstorming drive with it showed that the car can work differently. Even if it is not as radical as the Abu Dhabi setting, I think Red Bull should be prepared to reduce downforce in favour of straight line speed. Otherwise IMO, they will pay the price sooner or later as the rivals work around RBR's strengths.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:31 am 
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A lot will depend on the tires. They are gonna be differet from what we had this year. So yes they will make changes but majorly they will keep it the same

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:36 am 
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Johnston wrote:
froze wrote:
http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/ ... 13066.html
http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2012/3/13066.html wrote:
Mark Webber who was running a new chassis and development components on a heavily revised Red Bull RB8. “We had a pretty good run today and once again we learned a lot,” said Webber. “I have to say the car was not massively different to the one I drove on Thursday.



It was a new chassis in the way if they were running RB8 chassis #1 all testing then #2 comes of the production line and into the garage it's "New" . It wasn't a new design just a brand spanking fresh chassis.

Like driver writes of a chassis in a race and instead of giving him a used one the next race they give him a "New" one. It's new but identical to the old one.

Well, be that as it may. My point was, RBR could get an answer to the OP's question by trying two different designs. They have done so before. If I remember correct, they weren't sure which version of the RB8 was better until eventually.

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