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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:25 am 
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Luca himself at his "young age' does not know how to speak most of the times. SO definitely it is not a symptom of old age, simply a symptom of brain fade and both Bernie and Luca are affected by this disease.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:55 am 
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If Luca is senile, then Bernie is 17 years "seniler".


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:52 am 
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kai_ wrote:
I disagree with this. On what grounds were Ferrari asking for the clarification?

The onboard of Vettel's showed a green flag, which was missed by the guy posting it on youtube. So it's backwards to say that something was missed initially or that something was genuinely in doubt. It's the amateur analysis that should be rigorously checked before being relied upon for query. If we accept Ferrari making this clarification on the basis of that video then we're opening the door to results being queried based on anything that's posted on youtube, which could include doctored videos.

The lights, flags, dashboard situation has been around for several years. Any suggestion that Ferrari were unaware of how they interacted would be to suggest that they didn't understand the circumstances under which they'd been racing for quite awhile, and that they had on their car a dashboard function that they didn't understand, either.

Ferrari's clarification can only have been born out of incompetence or spite.

As for Montezemolo's comments, he just sounds ridiculous to me. Rather than discuss the substance of the matter he's childishly thrown personal insults. He can't win the argument so he's just thrown some mud at the arguer. He sounds petty and silly.


The YT video had the green flag partially hidden by the graphics plus it wasn't exactly high res.

As for doctored footage on YT and going on it. To me that is a reason to query it. They could say "Oh look it was green" when in reality the footage could be doctored to make it look green. Especially when one of the FIA readouts which has been posted shown the whole lot to be a yellow zone. We don't know where the YT poster that missed the green got his footage. I know we are going on conspiracy tin hat territory but thats one of the reasons it should be checked.

The only people to have access to full Res undoctored image with no graphics is the FIA and FOM. Hence going to the FIA for a clarification to have the original image looked at. It's called due diligence.

AND remember it was just a clarification asked for, not a full protest of the result. It's not as if RBR haven't asked for clarifications this year against competitor teams ;)

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:00 am 
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Johnston wrote:
kai_ wrote:
I disagree with this. On what grounds were Ferrari asking for the clarification?

The onboard of Vettel's showed a green flag, which was missed by the guy posting it on youtube. So it's backwards to say that something was missed initially or that something was genuinely in doubt. It's the amateur analysis that should be rigorously checked before being relied upon for query. If we accept Ferrari making this clarification on the basis of that video then we're opening the door to results being queried based on anything that's posted on youtube, which could include doctored videos.

The lights, flags, dashboard situation has been around for several years. Any suggestion that Ferrari were unaware of how they interacted would be to suggest that they didn't understand the circumstances under which they'd been racing for quite awhile, and that they had on their car a dashboard function that they didn't understand, either.

Ferrari's clarification can only have been born out of incompetence or spite.

As for Montezemolo's comments, he just sounds ridiculous to me. Rather than discuss the substance of the matter he's childishly thrown personal insults. He can't win the argument so he's just thrown some mud at the arguer. He sounds petty and silly.


The YT video had the green flag partially hidden by the graphics plus it wasn't exactly high res.

As for doctored footage on YT and going on it. To me that is a reason to query it. They could say "Oh look it was green" when in reality the footage could be doctored to make it look green. Especially when one of the FIA readouts which has been posted shown the whole lot to be a yellow zone. We don't know where the YT poster that missed the green got his footage. I know we are going on conspiracy tin hat territory but thats one of the reasons it should be checked.

The only people to have access to full Res undoctored image with no graphics is the FIA and FOM. Hence going to the FIA for a clarification to have the original image looked at. It's called due diligence.

AND remember it was just a clarification asked for, not a full protest of the result. It's not as if RBR haven't asked for clarifications this year against competitor teams ;)

So how come it went on for the best part of a week before Ferrari admitted a green flag was waved and the move was legal?

Quite apart from the fact that they would have had their own info independent of the FIA, I'm sure the FIA would have given them the info they needed as soon as they queried it.

But it took them one hell of a long time to admit the overtake was legal. Edit - posters on this forum came up with the evidence days before Ferrari 8O !


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:03 am 
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They maybe had their own info. But if that info was the same info that was posted in the other thread it showed the section to be yellow.

As far as I know the teams just get the FOM feed so they wouldn't have had the footage without the graphics.

As for the week, well the FIA doesn't exactly rush these things.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:26 am 
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Johnston wrote:
The YT video had the green flag partially hidden by the graphics plus it wasn't exactly high res.

As for doctored footage on YT and going on it. To me that is a reason to query it. They could say "Oh look it was green" when in reality the footage could be doctored to make it look green. Especially when one of the FIA readouts which has been posted shown the whole lot to be a yellow zone. We don't know where the YT poster that missed the green got his footage. I know we are going on conspiracy tin hat territory but thats one of the reasons it should be checked.

The only people to have access to full Res undoctored image with no graphics is the FIA and FOM. Hence going to the FIA for a clarification to have the original image looked at. It's called due diligence.

AND remember it was just a clarification asked for, not a full protest of the result. It's not as if RBR haven't asked for clarifications this year against competitor teams ;)

Well, they couldn't protest the result. To do that they had to lodge one within 30 minutes of the end of the race, which had passed, so their only option was to query the FIA.

My position on this is that there should have been a rigorous analysis done of the youtube video before Ferrari went to the FIA for clarification. And only if the matter was still in doubt was a clarification request justified. Otherwise it's opening the door to protests and queries being made on dodgy videos.

Therefore one of two things happened. Either Ferrari didn't rigorously examine the footage themselves, which is poor OR they did rigorously examine it and still believed they had some foundation for querying the matter, which I find very difficult to swallow given they would have had access to a lot more footage and information than was just available to us. The youtube video was Vettel's onboard from the race, which was available on several broadcasts and is also published online at a few (secret) sites in high resolution.

On the issue of the FIA map showing the segment yellow, Ferrari would know that this relates to the electronic map being connected to the lights not the Marshall post and if they didn't know that then I come back to the fact that they'd have to be completely incompetent because that has been the system for several years.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:43 am 
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Whats the point of analysing Low Res potentially altered footage when a letter to the FIA could have the original footage analysed.

As for Access to stuff like I said I believe the teams only get the FOM . Which had the green flag obscured by the graphics.

As for the Map it should all correlate. Flags lights and the screen should be showing the same thing. If the Marshall is told his sector is green the map should show green too.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:18 am 
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Johnston wrote:
Whats the point of analysing Low Res potentially altered footage when a letter to the FIA could have the original footage analysed.

As for Access to stuff like I said I believe the teams only get the FOM . Which had the green flag obscured by the graphics.

As for the Map it should all correlate. Flags lights and the screen should be showing the same thing. If the Marshall is told his sector is green the map should show green too.


My point was that the teams have access to official high resolution footage. They can also figure out if the footage is doctored - compare it to the official footage. The green flag wasn't entirely obscured by the graphics anyway - you can see it waving.

Whether or not the map should correlate is not the point. It doesn't, and the teams know that because they've been racing under that system for several years. I'm not sure how they even can have an automated system where the flags transmit a signal to the system that then builds the maps, either.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:23 am 
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the teams access is the FOM feed. Do you think they record everything shown?

IIRC the Seb in car wasn't broadcast on the main feed just the in car feeds. So who knows if Ferrari had that being recorded.I don't think the pit wall has it .


So I would doubt that Ferrari have a recording of every bit of footage transmitted.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:30 pm 
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Luca has every right to voice his opinion just like Bernie does. What is wrong with this? LUCA WAS RIGHT there are too many rules changes that doesnt make sense. why is it that you can spend every second on wind tunnel but you cant test on the track? Has anyone did a cost based analysis of the difference? Wind tunnels are expensive running a wind tunnel some teams run 2 for the entire season plus hiring a whole team of engineers/model manufactures and the support staff plus the computer hardware/software is huge. No one discusses this and only blame Ferrari for wanting testing when they have 2 tracks the own. Well Mclaren could have done same thing but they chose to spend hundreds of millions on a new factory which is fine, but dont then blame Ferrari because they want to test on the track. Luca is 100% correct.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:01 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
The YT video had the green flag partially hidden by the graphics plus it wasn't exactly high res.

As for doctored footage on YT and going on it. To me that is a reason to query it. They could say "Oh look it was green" when in reality the footage could be doctored to make it look green. Especially when one of the FIA readouts which has been posted shown the whole lot to be a yellow zone. We don't know where the YT poster that missed the green got his footage. I know we are going on conspiracy tin hat territory but thats one of the reasons it should be checked.

The only people to have access to full Res undoctored image with no graphics is the FIA and FOM. Hence going to the FIA for a clarification to have the original image looked at. It's called due diligence.

AND remember it was just a clarification asked for, not a full protest of the result. It's not as if RBR haven't asked for clarifications this year against competitor teams ;)

:thumbup: This is what I call a sensible post.

Funny thing is that some people pick on Alonso when it was Ferrari who asked for the clarification, FA just wrote a criptic twit to answer his fans. Vettel needs a twitter account to even things =D


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:12 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
I must be the only one who thinks these spats keep the sport interesting. The drama is almost as entertaining as the racing.


once again, I agree with you. The drama is one of the reason why i love f1. There is little to no drama in other sports

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:30 pm 
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greenwizard13 wrote:
Montezemolo isn't exactly a youngster either...

Oh, and Bernie was right this time...


And Monty is by far the bigger thug of the two.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:29 am 
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Bernie's reply:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/20579360

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:55 am 
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Covalent wrote:

Uncle Bernie wrote:
"I think there was so much pressure from probably the driver," Ecclestone said. "You must remember he's been saying nearly every race this year the car is rubbish and it's a bit difficult for them not to look as if they're trying to do something to help him."
So Bernie is blaming Alonso for the clarification. Is he just causing commotion or it was Alonso behind the clarification? Pressumption of innocence!


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