planetf1.com

Formula 1's variation on the "if you can't beat them join them" is "if you can't beat them, try to discredit them, then bring them over to your side". This could be Gazetta looking to destabilise Red Bull a bit and it could be them looking to associate Ferrari with the current golden boy in Formula 1.

I don't see Vettel going to Ferrari for 2014. Even if there are performance clauses in his contract IMO the Red Bull will perform well enough in 2013 to keep Vettel at the team. Aside from which I don't think Vettel looks as though he wants to leave at this point.

But IMO 2015 is a different story. Then Vettel's a free agent. The new regulations may change the pecking order of Formula 1 and Vettel may wish to move from Red Bull if they're not performing well or for a different challenge. And IMO that Alonso's contract runs to 2016 is irrelevant in this context. If Montezemolo decides he wants Vettel to drive, particularly if Alonso has not secured a WDC in the meantime, then Alonso will be booted out to accommodate that.

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Formerly kai_

The pursuit of a new challenge is a reasonable point but I think one difference between Vettel and Hamilton is the team relationship. Vettel looks to be genuinely loved by RBR whereas Hamilton's position at McLaren seemed a lot cooler, especially in the last couple of years.

As long as RBR remain competitive, and assuming the team dynamic doesn't change, I see no reason for Vettel to leave.

I partly agree. Vettel stated in 2010 that at some point in his career he wants to drive for Ferrari and Mercedes. My opinion is that Vettel will remain at Red Bull till the end of 2014, when his contract expires. He will then join Ferrari for 2015, but I don't think that they will ask Alonso to make way. By then Ferrari will have to rethink their strategy and concentrate on WCC primarily, which Vettel and Alonso can surely give them. Also, unlike the passive Massa, Vettel will be more pro-active in the team and he and Alonso will bring out the best in each other, increasing the chances of one of them winning the WDC.

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Vettel / Raikkonen / Button

Well, maybe if he wins next year's WDC? Hasn't he been saying on various occasions he'll quit when he gets that third WDC?

That's an interesting take. But there are huge risks to having two standout, highly competitive drivers with strong personalities in one team. Sometimes it results in exceptional results for the team ala Senna-Prost, but other times it can be counterproductive such as 2007 and there are always fireworks and relationship management issues. It's different if a team has two drivers with more laidback personalities. For example, Raikkonen and Massa. To me Alonso and Vettel would be more like the former.

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Formerly kai_

Yes, there is a risk of a Vettel-Alonso partnership turning out like Senna-Prost but one thing that has changed in the last 20 years that makes a confrontation unlikely is that regulations are now tighter and no driver can get away with the shenanigans of Prost and Senna in 1989. Also, there was a real personality issue with those two and it continued after Prost moved to Ferrari in 1990. While there is bound to be intense rivalry between Vettel & Alonso, I don't think that it will quite come to 'blows'. And unlike the tense Alonso-Hamilton partnership with McLaren in 2007, neither Vettel nor Alonso are really proteges of the Ferrari team and will have no cause to complain of preferential treatment.

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Vettel / Raikkonen / Button

True on the protege issue, but Alonso has never historically responded well to having a teammate that challenges him. Even if Ferrari were prepared to consider this sort of line-up due to the benefits it offers, I think Alonso's attitude is a sticking point and something they'd take into account. And if it did eventuate, I can't see him simply containing it to a competitive-push-each-other type rivalry, but rather that he'd resort to a lot of the mind games, manipulation and destabilising behaviour we've seen in the past and this year.

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Formerly kai_

Could be. But IF Vettel moves to Ferrari in 2015, he will not be a rookie like Hamilton was in 2007 but a multiple WDC, with almost certainly more wins and points than Alonso (by then). Also, he is a smart cookie and Alonso's mind games, even if he tried them, are very unlikely to work on Vettel.

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Vettel / Raikkonen / Button

Edit: Wrong thread...

Who was the man that took TWO titles away from them?

Alonso.

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1994 1995 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004

Really? When?

vettel is under contract for two more seasons. imo there is no doubt he would consider going to ferrari in 2015 and ask newey to come with him. that doesn't mean he will go though.

2014 will be a very interesting year with the new regulations. 2015 could see many, many interesting changes in team driver lineups depending on who gets it right and who doesn't in 2014.

anyhow, i won't concern myself with that in the least. will just enjoy next season as it unfolds and hope it is exciting as this season was

Has anyone considered the possibility that if Vettel moves to Ferrari, Alonso won't be there?

I forgot where I heard it, but someone was talking about Ferrari and money, and how Ferrari has their little vault, the one they use to pay drivers and other personnel, and then they have the big vault...the one they throw open when they need it, to nab a high skill designer or make necessary improvements.

05 and 06. Ferrari weren't in the title fight in 2005 but Alonso was seen as the man who toppled Schumi and the Ferrari dominance years.

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1994 1995 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004

Luca said he didn't want two roosters in the hen house when Massa's contract was being discussed. Agree with posters who think that Alonso may be eased out ahead of time if that is what it takes to get Vettel. Luca was mad enough to sack Michael and Kimi, why not Alonso? OTOH, I can't see Alonso leaving in 2014. It would take a catastrophe of some sort in RB for Vettel to opt out in 2014. But....if it did happen, it would certainly add be a treat for fans to see them compete in the same car. I am going to go out on a limb here and say that Vettel would be the winner, at age 27-28, against a 33-34 year old Alonso.

Confused by all the posters who say SV is only on top because he has the best car and because of Adrian, that Lewis and Fernando are better drivers...yet you think Ferrari will sack Fernando to buy Seb instead because they must have the best. The logic in that one..."its fantastic!" If you think its because Seb and RBR will continue to beat Fernando and Ferrari for the next few years, making Fernando less attractive...does that not also make Ferrari a lot less attractive to Seb? (As if it could be any LESS attractive than it is now)

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So Ferrari wasn't in the title fight in 2005 but Alonso still managed to take the title away from them.... Does anyone else spot the logical fallacy here?

I can't imagine how bitter HRT must be for Vettel taking three titles away from them.

Missing the point much?

Alonso was the first guy to beat Schumacher to a title since 1999. He was seen as the anti christ by Ferrari fans at the time. It would have been the same reaction to whoever would have won that year. Then he did beat Schumacher in a straight fight in 2006. He ended the Schumacher era. That's what Blake means by that.

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1994 1995 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004

I look at it more from the perspective of whether this is something Ferrari are willing to manage and whether it would send Alonso 'over the edge' (metaphorically speaking). Even if the mind games don't work, it might still have a negative impact on the environment and competitiveness and performance of the team.

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Formerly kai_

Make a questionable absolute statement. Then supply a contradictory fact. Then say the fact doesn't matter because people *believe* something else.

S.O.P. for forum posting.

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Well, I don't think they should fire Fred, but it could well happen. Ferrari is not known to be predictable (there may a logic, but it might be hidden like the Santander deal and Kimi, and sometimes it's just all about whose manhood is bigger, like how they got rid of everyone who made them dominant for half a decade).

And I am not one of those who say that it was Vettel and Newey v/s Alonso. I think Fernando got away with murder on that one. It was meant to belittle Vettel, but it also belittled whoever in Ferrari was taking on Newey's role.

No... everyone is talking about Vettel and Alonso being a pairing at Ferrari. Alonso will never be sacked in the next few years

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Support: Kimi Raikkonen, Lewis Hamilton, Jenson Button, Heikki Kovalainen
Respect: Alonso, Schumacher, Newey
Not so keen on: Vettel, Di Resta, whoever decides to red flag when it rains in F1

You can't miss something that doesn't exist.

True, Alonso was the first guy to beat Schumacher to a title since 1999 but he only did it ONCE in 2006, not twice. I don't know what Blake meant and that's why I asked HIM to clarify his quote about "the man that took TWO titles away from Ferrari" because Hakkinen is the only driver that fits this criteria but he never drove for Ferrari afterwards.

You do understand what "taking a title away" means, do you? It means that if it wasn't for THAT ONE particular driver, a Ferrari driver would have won. That was true in 2006 but that was definitely not the case in 2005. Do you get the point now? Alonso didn't take TWO titles away from Ferrari.

Meh. I know what Blake was meaning. That's all I care about frankly, not the pedantics of that.

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1994 1995 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004

That's not all what I care about though. What I care about is the truth. And you failed when you said it was Alonso who took TWO titles away from Ferrari.

Everyone except the people that aren't. Like Smus. And countless others in the countless threads on this same subject.

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Well in this thread there was only one guy who suggested it as a possibility but I think that in general terms when those in the paddock and in the media talk about Vettel possibly moving to Ferrari it is in the context of him going there with Alonso as a team mate seeing as Alonso has a contract to 2016. Yes Ferrari are prone to shock decisions but I would say Alonso is pretty embedded at Ferrari as much as Vettel is at Red Bull so any suggestions that they may fire him is quite frankly fanciful.

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Support: Kimi Raikkonen, Lewis Hamilton, Jenson Button, Heikki Kovalainen
Respect: Alonso, Schumacher, Newey
Not so keen on: Vettel, Di Resta, whoever decides to red flag when it rains in F1

Yeah, just like Schumacher, and Kimi.

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Well I did acknowledge Ferrari's history in terms of getting rid of drivers out of the blue, but I still would be extremely surprised if Ferrari sacked him it just does not make sense with him being on such a long contract and with the way he is performing at the moment.

I also think a lot of Vettel fans seem quite keen to entertain the idea of Alonso getting sacked by Ferrari (mainly because of his comments about Vettel over the course of the year), a mate of mine at uni is a huge Vettel fan and gets quite rattled when Alonso downplays Vettel's achievements so now he is entertaining the idea that Ferrari will sack Alonso in 2014 to make way for Vettel!

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Support: Kimi Raikkonen, Lewis Hamilton, Jenson Button, Heikki Kovalainen
Respect: Alonso, Schumacher, Newey
Not so keen on: Vettel, Di Resta, whoever decides to red flag when it rains in F1

Yes, Greg... Laura is right, that is what I meant, none of the underlying implications that you are seeing. My bad for not making it clear.... The scenario you have created I had not even thought about.

All I was trying to say was that Ferrari had hired a guy who had beaten them twice for the WDC ...

I am sorry to have given you the material to make a mountain out of a molehill, so please get off Laura's case. She doesn't deserve your rhetoric. Direct it to me instead.
I did not respond before because it was no big deal to me, but when you attack someone for defending my comment, it becomes personal.

Let us not make this into something it isn't, please.

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Forza Ferrari
WCCs = 16
WDCs = 15

Nah, they'll just crack open their big vault and buy all of Red Bull Racing >.>

I think if Fernando doesn't deliver a title in the next couple of years he WILL be shown the door, but not to make room for Sebastian.

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Then who? I'm not wanting to start an argument here I'm genuinely interested who you'll see replacing Alonso.

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1994 1995 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004

Blake, you know that I respect you and even when I don't agree with you I still treat you with the respect you deserve but I also expect to be treated back the same way.

I know that your reply was meant as a tongue in cheek to the person who made fun of the italian press reporting that Ferrari will hire the person who stole two titles from them (meaning Vettel) but while I appreciate your sarcasm and I agree that rivalries and antagonism mean nothing in F1, I also can't accept your insinuation that Alonso took TWO titles away from Ferrari before joining them because it translates to Alonso beating Schumacher twice for the title in a fair fight. To you it might be a molehill, to me it isn't and I do find it a big deal if it goes uncontested because I'm afraid that tomorrow there'll be a few more people who genuinely believe it to be true because Blake himself said it.

As for Laura, I've got nothing personal against her. I asked YOU a simple question, expecting an answer from YOU. Laura assumed herself competent enough to provide an answer in your place so I don't see why "I should get off her case". Perhaps she shouldn't have accepted the case in the first place.

As for the rest, whatever is pathetic about this place, I doubt it's coming from me.

For the record, I still insist that Alonso only took ONE title away from Ferrari.

He will probably go there eventually.

Greg, I never meant it to be anything more than Alonso won two titles Ferrari did not. I am not, and was not implying anything underhanded or "stolen" or in any way questionable. It was a simple statement in response to someone saying that Ferrari would not hire a driver who took two WDCs from them meaning Vettel. IT was all an innocent response that got blown up into far more than it was intended, which is why I hadn't responded, it wasn't worth a "fight" over a thought I had not even considered. In no way was I trying to take anything from Vettel or Alonso...never even crossed my mind. BTW, your fear that people will believe it because "Blake" said it is probably very much unfounded in this forum any more!


As for the "pathetic" part, (and you will note that I had edited that comment, but probably while you were responding to the previous unedited post), it is a frustration of seeing so many people posting in such negative ways, and in large part by "johnny come lately" types who think they know all about F1 after a month of posting.... and no, you don't qualify for that characteristic!


Anyway, let us move forward, as this is not worthy of further debate.

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Forza Ferrari
WCCs = 16
WDCs = 15

No idea who will be strong and otherwise appealing 2 years from now. While planning ahead is important in F1, the sport is won and lost in the "now". No point in trying to guess who will be where and why in seasons to come without filling in the blanks.

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I know what you mean Blake and that's why I wanted to clarify the "Two title" remark. There are many fans here who seem to not even bother with the history of this sport and expect to find the absolute truth among the posts of this forum. I'm not saying it isn't here but there are so many half-truths and lies that make it impossible to tell which is which. The sad part is that chances are many people will take the wrong post and run away with it.

Other than that, as I said already, I agree with the bulk of your post. Drivers and teams may have and express hard feelings towards each-other but when it comes to it, they realize this is business first and beauty parlor last. I have no doubt that if Ferrari have the best car in 2014 or 2015 and they want to have both Alonso and Vettel or Alonso and Hamilton or Hamilton and Vettel, they will.

Anyway, back to the OP, I've said it before, I don't see for another few years why Ferrari needs to replace Alonso. He's definitely been the most consistent top driver of the past few years, even more than Vettel and definitely more than Hamilton or Button. I don't see his speed or performance declining either. Like it or not, I believe Alonso has found his place and I'm sure, at least a title will soon belong to him, as long as he keeps performing in such levels.

Fair enough. Two years ago no one would have put Perez near a McLaren seat I suppose!

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