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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:27 am 
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F1nsider wrote:
You guys are going bonkers with the evidence thing!!

You can never prove a negative, but that doesn't mean it wasn't!

If everything had a very clear evidence, then why are we even debating anything over here. As fans of the sport we have exposure to so many stories and events that we are aware of, so any intelligent fan can put things together and come up with a theory, some are ridiculous but others are very acceptable and believable, with some stories backing them up

Prove to me that Ferrari didn't sabotage Kimi's reputation and didn't want him to win the WDC in 2008? if you don't have a proof that means I'm right, right?

This is getting ridiculous


its so weird in 2008 that the new development suddenly kick in and didnt suit kimi at all....thats how they treat their no.1

Either kimi is too lazy to get involve or idk really. Santander 's sudden involvement etc

Glad he's out of there, those political environment didnt suit him at all.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:29 am 
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LKS1 wrote:
We know that 1) Alonso tried to blackmail Ron Dennis in '07 2) was v angry that he wasn't treated as the no. 1 driver 3) accused Renault of not supporting him in '06 :uhoh: 4) declared that F1 was no longer a sport in '06 - and I'm sure there are many others. Its not a huge leap to assume that he knew about the Singapore crash (although I doubt it was his idea) and was party to the decision to question the overtake in the last race.

1-Unclear, it was only Ron's view, Alonso had to remain silent to prevent things getting worse.
2-He wasn't treated as #1, but that's not the real reason of his anger, actually it was that he never felt confortable at McLaren, he seemed like a driver from another team inside the McLaren box.
3-He was angry at Renault because they were focusing in 2007 in the middle of 2006, hence Schumacher caught him up in the standings. Yet he RETURNED to Renault instead of signing with RBR for 2008 & 09.
4-Is F1 a sport? LoL, no driver should say it isn't a sport, but, what the heck, that's true! It's a show, a circus, business!
5-Piquet Jr said it clear, Alonso knew nothing, what else do you need?


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:34 am 
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NvrDieYoung wrote:
F1nsider wrote:
You guys are going bonkers with the evidence thing!!

You can never prove a negative, but that doesn't mean it wasn't!

If everything had a very clear evidence, then why are we even debating anything over here. As fans of the sport we have exposure to so many stories and events that we are aware of, so any intelligent fan can put things together and come up with a theory, some are ridiculous but others are very acceptable and believable, with some stories backing them up

Prove to me that Ferrari didn't sabotage Kimi's reputation and didn't want him to win the WDC in 2008? if you don't have a proof that means I'm right, right?

This is getting ridiculous


its so weird in 2008 that the new development suddenly kick in and didnt suit kimi at all....thats how they treat their no.1

Either kimi is too lazy to get involve or idk really. Santander 's sudden involvement etc

Glad he's out of there, those political environment didnt suit him at all.


I don't want to derail the thread and make it about Kimi, I only used that example because its the most argued over the forum, whereby some people think its ridiculous to think that a team would sabotage its own driver, the others could almost swear that this is exactly what happened.

None of both sides can prove 100% what the case was, yet they both treat others as idiots and keep asking for proofs! It's never as plain as black and white, we can only read more into stories and twist them to whatever side we lean towards


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:35 am 
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NvrDieYoung wrote:
F1nsider wrote:
You guys are going bonkers with the evidence thing!!

You can never prove a negative, but that doesn't mean it wasn't!

If everything had a very clear evidence, then why are we even debating anything over here. As fans of the sport we have exposure to so many stories and events that we are aware of, so any intelligent fan can put things together and come up with a theory, some are ridiculous but others are very acceptable and believable, with some stories backing them up

Prove to me that Ferrari didn't sabotage Kimi's reputation and didn't want him to win the WDC in 2008? if you don't have a proof that means I'm right, right?

This is getting ridiculous


its so weird in 2008 that the new development suddenly kick in and didnt suit kimi at all....thats how they treat their no.1

Either kimi is too lazy to get involve or idk really. Santander 's sudden involvement etc

Glad he's out of there, those political environment didnt suit him at all.

I agree with this - Ferrari was always the wrong team for Kimi.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:37 am 
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chican wrote:
LKS1 wrote:
We know that 1) Alonso tried to blackmail Ron Dennis in '07 2) was v angry that he wasn't treated as the no. 1 driver 3) accused Renault of not supporting him in '06 :uhoh: 4) declared that F1 was no longer a sport in '06 - and I'm sure there are many others. Its not a huge leap to assume that he knew about the Singapore crash (although I doubt it was his idea) and was party to the decision to question the overtake in the last race.

1-Unclear, it was only Ron's view, Alonso had to remain silent to prevent things getting worse.
2-He wasn't treated as #1, but that's not the real reason of his anger, actually it was that he never felt confortable at McLaren, he seemed like a driver from another team inside the McLaren box.
3-He was angry at Renault because they were focusing in 2007 in the middle of 2006, hence Schumacher caught him up in the standings. Yet he RETURNED to Renault instead of signing with RBR for 2008 & 09.
4-Is F1 a sport? LoL, no driver should say it isn't a sport, but, what the heck, that's true! It's a show, a circus, business!
5-Piquet Jr said it clear, Alonso knew nothing, what else do you need?



So you're saying all the points listed above are untrue? I just want to know so I can start correcting the history of F1 for millions of people


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:45 am 
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F1nsider wrote:
chican wrote:
LKS1 wrote:
We know that 1) Alonso tried to blackmail Ron Dennis in '07 2) was v angry that he wasn't treated as the no. 1 driver 3) accused Renault of not supporting him in '06 :uhoh: 4) declared that F1 was no longer a sport in '06 - and I'm sure there are many others. Its not a huge leap to assume that he knew about the Singapore crash (although I doubt it was his idea) and was party to the decision to question the overtake in the last race.

1-Unclear, it was only Ron's view, Alonso had to remain silent to prevent things getting worse.
2-He wasn't treated as #1, but that's not the real reason of his anger, actually it was that he never felt confortable at McLaren, he seemed like a driver from another team inside the McLaren box.
3-He was angry at Renault because they were focusing in 2007 in the middle of 2006, hence Schumacher caught him up in the standings. Yet he RETURNED to Renault instead of signing with RBR for 2008 & 09.
4-Is F1 a sport? LoL, no driver should say it isn't a sport, but, what the heck, that's true! It's a show, a circus, business!
5-Piquet Jr said it clear, Alonso knew nothing, what else do you need?



So you're saying all the points listed above are untrue? I just want to know so I can start correcting the history of F1 for millions of people
I'm saying many people misinterpret Alonso. You can write what you think is right, History is not an exact science so it doesn't matter in the end,you create your own reality, just leave mine to me.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:06 am 
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chican wrote:
F1nsider wrote:
chican wrote:
LKS1 wrote:
We know that 1) Alonso tried to blackmail Ron Dennis in '07 2) was v angry that he wasn't treated as the no. 1 driver 3) accused Renault of not supporting him in '06 :uhoh: 4) declared that F1 was no longer a sport in '06 - and I'm sure there are many others. Its not a huge leap to assume that he knew about the Singapore crash (although I doubt it was his idea) and was party to the decision to question the overtake in the last race.

1-Unclear, it was only Ron's view, Alonso had to remain silent to prevent things getting worse.
2-He wasn't treated as #1, but that's not the real reason of his anger, actually it was that he never felt confortable at McLaren, he seemed like a driver from another team inside the McLaren box.
3-He was angry at Renault because they were focusing in 2007 in the middle of 2006, hence Schumacher caught him up in the standings. Yet he RETURNED to Renault instead of signing with RBR for 2008 & 09.
4-Is F1 a sport? LoL, no driver should say it isn't a sport, but, what the heck, that's true! It's a show, a circus, business!
5-Piquet Jr said it clear, Alonso knew nothing, what else do you need?



So you're saying all the points listed above are untrue? I just want to know so I can start correcting the history of F1 for millions of people
I'm saying many people misinterpret Alonso. You can write what you think is right, History is not an exact science so it doesn't matter in the end,you create your own reality, just leave mine to me.

Fair enough - it took me YEARS to accept Schumi's misdemeanours - as I preferred to believe that Hill/JV/Monaco '06 quali were all mistakes, not deliberate :D .

One of those odd things that we can clearly see the faults of drivers we don't support - whilst it takes one hell of a long time to see those of the drivers we do support!


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:15 am 
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LKS1 wrote:
Fair enough - it took me YEARS to accept Schumi's misdemeanours - as I preferred to believe that Hill/JV/Monaco '06 quali were all mistakes, not deliberate :D .

One of those odd things that we can clearly see the faults of drivers we don't support - whilst it takes one hell of a long time to see those of the drivers we do support!
But your examples are different, Schumacher misdemeanours were actions on track, everybody witnessed them. On the other hand, polemics around Alonso are not that clear. I admit he's prone to pass comments that tend to turn against him, but the most of the times they're over-inflated or simply misinterpreted by the Internet or the press. Maybe his main flaw is not being as smart as Vettel!


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:50 am 
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chican wrote:
LKS1 wrote:
Fair enough - it took me YEARS to accept Schumi's misdemeanours - as I preferred to believe that Hill/JV/Monaco '06 quali were all mistakes, not deliberate :D .

One of those odd things that we can clearly see the faults of drivers we don't support - whilst it takes one hell of a long time to see those of the drivers we do support!
But your examples are different, Schumacher misdemeanours were actions on track, everybody witnessed them. On the other hand, polemics around Alonso are not that clear. I admit he's prone to pass comments that tend to turn against him, but the most of the times they're over-inflated or simply misinterpreted by the Internet or the press. Maybe his main flaw is not being as smart as Vettel!

On the other hand, Alonso's actions are pre-meditated - rather than being in the heat of the moment...

Most of the 'bad' things said/done by Alonso are acknowledged - even if fans prefer to deny/find excuses.

As a Schumi fan, I can sympathise with this, whilst finding the 'events' surrounding Alonso far worse.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:16 am 
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I can't understand why the writer of the article the OP refers to, wants us to consider Ferrari and Alonso as "ungallant" for having had the temerity to bring up a possibly incorrect overtake. If I were a driver, any driver of any team, losing the title to a competitor in the final race of the season, I would expect my team (or in fact the FIA itself!) to ask for clarification of that phase of the race. In fact, I would consider my team to have failed me if they didn't. Gallantry or sportsmanship do not come into the equation at all.

That the investigation made it clear Vettel was indeed the rightful champion, doesn't make Ferrari or Alonso any less gallant than during the fantastic season they have mounted all through 2012.
On the contrary, it underlined the fine work of the track marshals, who did a stirling job, once again!

I don't have much time for the Ferrari team, or for Alonso - partly for the way they took Räikkönen out of my favourite sport. But they had the courage to do what Williams failed to do at the end of 1994, and I for one support their action.

What has me truly puzzled in this thread is this:
LKS1 wrote:
chican wrote:
You have to face it, Kimi lost his seat to Alonso. End of story.

Kimi deserved to lose his seat to Alonso as he hadn't performed as well as expected.
How does winning both titles first time round, change into not performing as well as expected? Was Räikkönen supposed to go to Santander on his knees and beg to be allowed to stay? Alonso was paying his way out of a spell with the team that had made him a 2x WDC, and welcomed him after his antics at McLaren. That is the part of his career that shows a lack of gallantry.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:31 am 
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NvrDieYoung wrote:
Blake wrote:
NvrDieYoung wrote:

i dont really care how long you hv been here.

A guy that involve in spygate was also involve in crahgate as well....

The controvery just follow him...and you expect people to believe he knew nth about it??

stop kidding urself LOL


Quote:
Make his teammate crash to win in 2008


You made the claim... so prove it.


he won the race. Nelson Jr crash for whose benefit?? and who benefit the most in this situation?? Prove me wrong

Everyone aware of his manipulation on teammate behavior in the past.....particularly 2007, when he kept ask the team to move lewis out of the way and let him win.

TR in 2007 season review


The onus is on the accuser to provide proof. Asking a team to move a driver out the way is very different to asking a driver to crash into a wall. I do hope you never get jury duty, you just gloss over the burdern of proof. If you were on a prosecution, using the logic you have used above, it would go something like this:

We, the NvrYoung prosecution, accuse this man of theft. We have no witnesses and no physical evidence. He once played cops and robbers as a boy. Everyone is aware of his history of being a robber. Prove me wrong.

You've been called out by Blake on not providing proof and now the best you can do is say that Alonso benefited and that means he is guilty. Sorry, it doesn't work like that. Guess what, my friend's grandmother died in a gas explosion and he gained some inheritance. He must have killed her according to your logic. Would have been difficult. He had lived 4,500 miles away from her for 18 months.

Plus you changed your story from saying that Alonso told Piquet to do it, to "Alonso knew about it." Finally, you make your conspiracy theory with the FIA that they didn't charge Alonso in 2007. They granted immunity to Alonso, Hamilton and de la Rosa in exchange for their evidence. It wasn't a fit up to let the Spaniard wriggle free. But plough on, don't let facts get in the way of your viable theory, because it's just that, a theory, until there is verified evidence to back it up.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:32 am 
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LKS1 wrote:
chican wrote:
You have to face it, Kimi lost his seat to Alonso. End of story.

Kimi deserved to lose his seat to Alonso as he hadn't performed as well as expected.

If it would've been a sporting decision, Alonso-Räikkönen would've been the Ferrari lineup. Sadly, there were too many unsporting factors involved.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:42 am 
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If I remember correctly, it was a YouTube video which started it all, followed by the media and fans via social networking. Not Alonso, nor Ferrari.

Whatever Ferrari did (asking for clarification or keep silence) people wouldn't stop protesting the result until they get an explanation from FIA.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:57 am 
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iceman_fan90 wrote:
We all know about Alonso and Ferrari's underhanded tactics over the years but reading this opinion piece on PF1 that lays it all out in one article really makes one reflect on it http://www.planetf1.com/editorial/8295279/Opinion-Losing-It. How long can the FIA deem such behavior as in any way acceptable? What kind of example does this set for the kids watching when they see one of the standard-bearers of the sport behave in such unsporting manner? I fear that all this will drag down the reputation of F1, clearly Luca and Fernando don't give a damn about the reputation of the sport when they raise questions about the legitimacy of the world champion. Looks like Bernie is finally starting to see the light but I fear the damage might already be done. Now that Ferrari's claims are widely acknoledged as bogus, FIA should make Ferrari publically apologize to Vettel & Red Bull, that's the only way this mess can be resolved and respect restored to F1 in the eyes of the public. It will also make sure that in the future teams don't go out spewing complete crap without having anything to back it up


While Ferrari and Alonso do all those evil things they also give people like yourself an excuse to come into PF1 forums and start this sort of thread. Again and again.. and again. You should be grateful. :)

Ferrari had the right to do this as much as any other team. Bernie of all people should know, it's his business after all isn't it? Actually if it had been any other team it would have simply been an anecdote to end the season. Had it been Alonso passing under yellows we would have had the exact same uproar as now but from a different angle with the usual drivel of 'cheats', FIArrari etc. The hypocrisy of some people beggars paralell. I find it amusing, such bitterness, he did not even win the WDC!

What respect are you talking about by the way? Who do you consider 'public'? I suppose I'm part of the public and F1 has not lost any respect in my eyes, I think you should speak for yourself when giving such subjective opinions. Moral crusaders..

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:00 am 
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swillis wrote:
Besides that, wow the Nando and Ferrari hate is nearly boiling over. Depending on what videos you could get your hands on it looked like Seb had passed under yellows. Footage implying he did was MUCH easier to find than the one which showed the marshal and his flag. Once it had come to light, that was it, end of, bring on 2013.


Adit N. wrote:
If I remember correctly, it was a YouTube video which started it all, followed by the media and fans via social networking. Not Alonso, nor Ferrari.

Whatever Ferrari did (asking for clarification or keep silence) people wouldn't stop protesting the result until they get an explanation from FIA.


Do you guys really think Ferrari has no access to the HD driver feeds? Do you really think they have to rely on grainy SD Youtube videos?

So question: Why was it so difficult for Ferrari to review Vettels 4th lap themselves, spot the green flag and simply bury the case? They could have told their fans: "We've reviewed the video, there was a green flag when Vettel overtook, he did nothing wrong, case closed"

Why was there a need for "clarification" from FIA? Please explain. :?:


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:19 am 
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LKS1 wrote:
chican wrote:
You have to face it, Kimi lost his seat to Alonso. End of story.

The editor who wrote that article didn't prove Alonso was behind the clarification. BBC said "Alonso is believed to be behind", yet people may believe whatever they want. Truth is that there is no fact supporting that but a criptic twit. BTW According to La Gazzetta dello Sport Fernando Fernando is not believed to be behind.

Kimi deserved to lose his seat to Alonso as he hadn't performed as well as expected.

We know that 1) Alonso tried to blackmail Ron Dennis in '07 2) was v angry that he wasn't treated as the no. 1 driver 3) accused Renault of not supporting him in '06 :uhoh: 4) declared that F1 was no longer a sport in '06 - and I'm sure there are many others. Its not a huge leap to assume that he knew about the Singapore crash (although I doubt it was his idea) and was party to the decision to question the overtake in the last race.

Do you ever ask yourself why both sides agreed to stay quiet after 2007?
As far as I'm aware there was an agreement struck that forbids Alonso from discussing the matter in any detail. I don't know if it was a financial agreement or a "you-don't-talk-about-us-we-won't-talk-about-you" type agreement.
There's an awful lot more to the 2007 story than any of us know. Everybody that keeps bringing it up keep spouting forth their own assumptions.

And yes Alonso declared F1 was no longer a sport after he was ridiculously accused of brake testing Felipe Massa in Monza practice and incurred a 5-place grid drop. He got a cold slap-in-the-face reminder that politics play as big a role in F1 as outright performance.
Funny how these days he is being touted as being as much of a politician as he is a driver. He learnt a lot in 2006.

Personally I've always been on the fence about Singapore. Mostly because I had suspected it when it happened. I've always thought that if I suspected it from my living room couch then Alonso must have had some idea of what was going.
On the other hand, Renault didn't seem to have a hope that day. Alonso may have been of the mindset to take a risky strategy and rely on a Safety Car (which seemed highly likely to appear at some point) to make gains. And it turned out that the Safety Car came courtesy of his teammate. Pat Symonds had been known to take aggressive gambles like that when they had nothing to lose.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:34 am 
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mcdo wrote:
LKS1 wrote:
chican wrote:
You have to face it, Kimi lost his seat to Alonso. End of story.

The editor who wrote that article didn't prove Alonso was behind the clarification. BBC said "Alonso is believed to be behind", yet people may believe whatever they want. Truth is that there is no fact supporting that but a criptic twit. BTW According to La Gazzetta dello Sport Fernando Fernando is not believed to be behind.

Kimi deserved to lose his seat to Alonso as he hadn't performed as well as expected.

We know that 1) Alonso tried to blackmail Ron Dennis in '07 2) was v angry that he wasn't treated as the no. 1 driver 3) accused Renault of not supporting him in '06 :uhoh: 4) declared that F1 was no longer a sport in '06 - and I'm sure there are many others. Its not a huge leap to assume that he knew about the Singapore crash (although I doubt it was his idea) and was party to the decision to question the overtake in the last race.

Do you ever ask yourself why both sides agreed to stay quiet after 2007?
As far as I'm aware there was an agreement struck that forbids Alonso from discussing the matter in any detail. I don't know if it was a financial agreement or a "you-don't-talk-about-us-we-won't-talk-about-you" type agreement.
There's an awful lot more to the 2007 story than any of us know. Everybody that keeps bringing it up keep spouting forth their own assumptions.

And yes Alonso declared F1 was no longer a sport after he was ridiculously accused of brake testing Felipe Massa in Monza practice and incurred a 5-place grid drop. He got a cold slap-in-the-face reminder that politics play as big a role in F1 as outright performance.
Funny how these days he is being touted as being as much of a politician as he is a driver. He learnt a lot in 2006.

Personally I've always been on the fence about Singapore. Mostly because I had suspected it when it happened. I've always thought that if I suspected it from my living room couch then Alonso must have had some idea of what was going.
On the other hand, Renault didn't seem to have a hope that day. Alonso may have been of the mindset to take a risky strategy and rely on a Safety Car (which seemed highly likely to appear at some point) to make gains. And it turned out that the Safety Car came courtesy of his teammate. Pat Symonds had been known to take aggressive gambles like that when they had nothing to lose.


This is the problem, it was all so very convenient. I think Alonso is far too clever and conniving himself to not have suspected something was up immediately after the race, but that's an entirely different affair to his complicity in the planning, for which there is no evidence. Unfortunately, some fans who are still upset that he deposed Kimi at Ferrari are determined to ride roughshod over backing up accusations with real facts and it is very transparent when they do.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:07 pm 
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Zatoichi wrote:
swillis wrote:
Besides that, wow the Nando and Ferrari hate is nearly boiling over. Depending on what videos you could get your hands on it looked like Seb had passed under yellows. Footage implying he did was MUCH easier to find than the one which showed the marshal and his flag. Once it had come to light, that was it, end of, bring on 2013.


Adit N. wrote:
If I remember correctly, it was a YouTube video which started it all, followed by the media and fans via social networking. Not Alonso, nor Ferrari.

Whatever Ferrari did (asking for clarification or keep silence) people wouldn't stop protesting the result until they get an explanation from FIA.


Do you guys really think Ferrari has no access to the HD driver feeds? Do you really think they have to rely on grainy SD Youtube videos?

So question: Why was it so difficult for Ferrari to review Vettels 4th lap themselves, spot the green flag and simply bury the case? They could have told their fans: "We've reviewed the video, there was a green flag when Vettel overtook, he did nothing wrong, case closed"

Why was there a need for "clarification" from FIA? Please explain. :?:


Yes, there was a green flag but the light on Vettel's dash and the FIA official circuit map was still yellow. What's wrong if they want a clarification, eh? It's not against the rules and they had every right to do so.

To say Alonso and Ferrari brought disgrace and dishonor for doing that is very harsh in my view. For all I know Alonso brought lots of Spanish audience to the sport. And that's a big market.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:10 pm 
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Bringing Dishonor may be a little too far fetch, Bringing Disgrace, yes.

Don't think anyone here has any doubt about what Alonso's tweet meant, and that Ferrari were only seeking clarifications.... To actually believe that means you're FANATIC. Of course Ferrari hoped to disqualify Vettel's WDC and by so,install Alonso as the champ. They shouldn't deny them, it's their team, who doesn't to win a WDC?

The fact that Alonso kept playing mind games, i.e. fighting Newey, not Vettle, after losing, he now claims that, "Hey, I've done all I can, the car just wasn't good enough" is utter BS. If Red Bull was that good, they would've lead both championships right from the begining. ALL, Vettel, Webber and Newey were great. In a year when they started badly, they were able to turn things around in their favor and WIN IT ALL. It's a great team effort, no RBR = 6, Vettel = 12 BS. Just great competition, with Vettel having to compete even with Webber, even in Brazil, forcing Vettel to spin, yet he caught up to take the WDC

That Vettel deserves to to be champ, is irrefutable.

And Yes, Alonso is great too, but he IS ALSO A SORE loser. Look at 07' when he could've managed better and probably won in McLaren, instead, he played the media game against Hamilton and McLaren. He threatened Ron Dennis about going to the FIA with the spygate info if he wasn't handed no. 1 status. And in a way, McLaren did that to themselves, they got in a super aggressive proven world champ, and would've won it all in 07', but they antagonised Alonso so much, that they're willing to be it all on Hamilton (a rookie), and threw away both championhips.

Then Crashgate in 08. Isn't Alonso just so full of it? Schumi seems pale compared to Alonso.

So, NO, no Dishonor here, just Disgrace.....


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:23 pm 
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This whole thread is a joke. The rules allow a team to ask for clarification, which Ferrari did or even protest the outcome of the race, which Ferrari didnt do. Any other team with this much evidence would have done the same thing and to say they wouldnt would be a lie. Too many monday morning quarterbacks but that is reality.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:35 pm 
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Adit N. wrote:
Zatoichi wrote:
swillis wrote:
Besides that, wow the Nando and Ferrari hate is nearly boiling over. Depending on what videos you could get your hands on it looked like Seb had passed under yellows. Footage implying he did was MUCH easier to find than the one which showed the marshal and his flag. Once it had come to light, that was it, end of, bring on 2013.


Adit N. wrote:
If I remember correctly, it was a YouTube video which started it all, followed by the media and fans via social networking. Not Alonso, nor Ferrari.

Whatever Ferrari did (asking for clarification or keep silence) people wouldn't stop protesting the result until they get an explanation from FIA.


Do you guys really think Ferrari has no access to the HD driver feeds? Do you really think they have to rely on grainy SD Youtube videos?

So question: Why was it so difficult for Ferrari to review Vettels 4th lap themselves, spot the green flag and simply bury the case? They could have told their fans: "We've reviewed the video, there was a green flag when Vettel overtook, he did nothing wrong, case closed"

Why was there a need for "clarification" from FIA? Please explain. :?:


Yes, there was a green flag but the light on Vettel's dash and the FIA official circuit map was still yellow. What's wrong if they want a clarification, eh? It's not against the rules and they had every right to do so.


So, you think Ferrari doesn't know the rules, so they had a need for clarification? You think Alonso wouldn't have passed Vergne if a marshall waves a green flag, because Ferrari thinks lights have precedence over flags? Well, that's really very unprofessional of Ferrari then. Maybe they should just READ THE RULES, and they could spare themselves a lot of asking...


AstoriaisBACK wrote:
This whole thread is a joke. The rules allow a team to ask for clarification, which Ferrari did or even protest the outcome of the race, which Ferrari didnt do. Any other team with this much evidence would have done the same thing and to say they wouldnt would be a lie. Too many monday morning quarterbacks but that is reality.


AAARGHHHH, what evidence??? The evidence of a green flag, which could be cleary seen on Vettels HD driver feed? There was NOTHING debatable about Vettel's move, NOTHING. It was completely NORMAL...


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:19 pm 
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chican wrote:
F1nsider wrote:
chican wrote:
LKS1 wrote:
We know that 1) Alonso tried to blackmail Ron Dennis in '07 2) was v angry that he wasn't treated as the no. 1 driver 3) accused Renault of not supporting him in '06 :uhoh: 4) declared that F1 was no longer a sport in '06 - and I'm sure there are many others. Its not a huge leap to assume that he knew about the Singapore crash (although I doubt it was his idea) and was party to the decision to question the overtake in the last race.

1-Unclear, it was only Ron's view, Alonso had to remain silent to prevent things getting worse.
2-He wasn't treated as #1, but that's not the real reason of his anger, actually it was that he never felt confortable at McLaren, he seemed like a driver from another team inside the McLaren box.
3-He was angry at Renault because they were focusing in 2007 in the middle of 2006, hence Schumacher caught him up in the standings. Yet he RETURNED to Renault instead of signing with RBR for 2008 & 09.
4-Is F1 a sport? LoL, no driver should say it isn't a sport, but, what the heck, that's true! It's a show, a circus, business!
5-Piquet Jr said it clear, Alonso knew nothing, what else do you need?



So you're saying all the points listed above are untrue? I just want to know so I can start correcting the history of F1 for millions of people
I'm saying many people misinterpret Alonso. You can write what you think is right, History is not an exact science so it doesn't matter in the end,you create your own reality, just leave mine to me.



And that's exactly what I stated in my rant, why do people ask for proofs then? If it wasn't an "exact science" .. Anyway, as you said, you can have your own opinion which I respect. To me? Alonso is an amazing driver who's as annoying as a continuously crying 2 years old kid. On and off track in that matter. I love having drivers like him on the grid and especially in a good car. It gives much more satisfaction seeing him getting beaten

Don't get me wrong, he's the only thing that kept me watching F1 after Kimi left, so I'm very grateful for him, and I hope he keeps doing what he's doing. He's very entertaining

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:28 pm 
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NvrDieYoung it is your responsibility to prove your claim to Blake, he is not making a positive or negative assertion about Alonso's involvement only you are doing that.

While you may suspect based on prior form, when you want to make a categorical factual claim you do have to back it up with some evidence rather than 'X did Y' 'X was involved in Z' 'Therefore as X did Y he did Z'

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:45 pm 
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OK, apologies here, but I'm gonna have to shout the next bit...

...BECAUSE I CANNOT BELIEVE HOW RIDICULOUS AND IDIOTIC AND PRO/ANTI ALONSO/VETTEL SOME FANBOYS CAN GET.

Phew.

Anyway, what was a small issue has been blown out of all proportion because it happened at the last race of the season at which the title was decided.

Where is the outcry about Vettel being investigated post-race in Singapore?

Where is the outcry for Vettel getting penalised post-race in Germany?

Where is the outcry about Ferrari and Alonso complaining about Vettel in Japan quali?


No, because it was the last race of the season, what was a simple query from Ferrari to the FIA of "have you seen this alleged incident, and can you issue an official verdict to let everyone know one way or another" has turned into something ridiculous.


Ferrari did nothing wrong as they merely asked the FIA to review the alleged incident and issue an official verdict of legal or illegal. The FIA said legal and the issue stopped there.

But no, idiotic fanboys of the net aren't happy. Vettel fanboys say Ferrari must pay for their unsporting actions. Ferrari fanboys say Vettel cannot truly be world champion and it's all a conspiracy against Alonso.

Please just let it drop. Ferrari asked. The FIA gave verdict and the title was decided. Vettel is champion.

Get over it and get on with life.

2013 here we come...

:D :D :D


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:00 pm 
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Though "disgrace & dishonor" are words archaic and a tad harsh, Ferrari seeking "clarification" do strike me as a rather gargantuan red herring. The serious way for Ferrari to go about it would be to shut thier trap and go over the evidence to see if they may have a proper case, then A) yes we may have case: pursue it with an effin vengeance, or B) nah, nothing there, so let's tell our fans just that: we have found niente.

Instead the we-are-the-victim-version: ai, victims of FIA fuzziness, ouch, victims of FIA's clarifications, oi, victims who will obediently accept said FIA's spanking clarifications, etc. etc.

Take charge fcol. But god knows the team has made some very peculiar politico-strategical decisions in the post-Todt era. This is yet another one.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:32 pm 
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iceman_fan90 wrote:
We all know about Alonso and Ferrari's underhanded tactics over the years but reading this opinion piece on PF1 that lays it all out in one article really makes one reflect on it http://www.planetf1.com/editorial/8295279/Opinion-Losing-It.


That op-ed would fit right in as a forum post.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:38 pm 
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Going off-topic for just a minute:
F1nsider wrote:
Don't get me wrong, he's the only thing that kept me watching F1 after Kimi left, so I'm very grateful for him, and I hope he keeps doing what he's doing. He's very entertaining

:? I agree he's very mildly entertaining, but Alonso's fear of equal driver treatment at Ferrari (where have we seen that before) was the reason Kimi had to go... Not exactly a good reason to be grateful for his entertaining tantrums, is it?

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:29 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
Going off-topic for just a minute:
F1nsider wrote:
Don't get me wrong, he's the only thing that kept me watching F1 after Kimi left, so I'm very grateful for him, and I hope he keeps doing what he's doing. He's very entertaining

:? I agree he's very mildly entertaining, but Alonso's fear of equal driver treatment at Ferrari (where have we seen that before) was the reason Kimi had to go... Not exactly a good reason to be grateful for his entertaining tantrums, is it?


And why do you think he became my most hated driver? lol.. even more than Schumi in his golden days

I can't blame him though, he wanted to get a good race seat, Santander wanted to protect their golden boy, they had to buyout Kimi, simple. Performance excuse was a joke considering how well he has done since the team forcibly focused on him after Massa's accident. I don't think it was too late, because they could've assessed what made him perform better, and just keep doing it!

Anyway, I agree with you. Let's not derail the thread even further ;)


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:51 pm 
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The 'most hated driver' with 1.369.000 followers on twitter. Delusion is not a river in China you know.

And even the certified 'haterz' can't stop talking about Alonso nonstop. Are some of you secretly in love with the guy?


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:09 pm 
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:lol:

all ferrari asked was a explanation about the overtaking! this has more to do with having a shot at alonso/ferrari since your a kimi fan. get over it, kimi was overated and ferrari wanted the best so they went with alonso in 2010.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:13 pm 
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What a load of bollocks. Alonso drove his as of that car. he has done amazingly well this year. Albeit a very reliable car.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:14 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
Going off-topic for just a minute:
F1nsider wrote:
Don't get me wrong, he's the only thing that kept me watching F1 after Kimi left, so I'm very grateful for him, and I hope he keeps doing what he's doing. He's very entertaining

:? I agree he's very mildly entertaining, but Alonso's fear of equal driver treatment at Ferrari (where have we seen that before) was the reason Kimi had to go... Not exactly a good reason to be grateful for his entertaining tantrums, is it?

Fiki, you know I love you ;) , but it is about time that you wake up from that dream in which Raikkonen was perfect for Ferrari but the bad guy came in and bought him out of his seat because he was afraid of competition.

Raikkonen failed to deliver what Ferrari expected, and they decided to get rid of him and get Alonso instead. You may argue that Ferrari made a mistake; you may argue that they should have known in advance what they were getting in Raikkonen; you may argue that it was a matter of character and not of driving skills. But to claim that Santander was calling the shots in the most powerful house in F1 (sponsored by Philip Morris) is absurd, and you know it.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:21 pm 
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morgana wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Going off-topic for just a minute:
F1nsider wrote:
Don't get me wrong, he's the only thing that kept me watching F1 after Kimi left, so I'm very grateful for him, and I hope he keeps doing what he's doing. He's very entertaining

:? I agree he's very mildly entertaining, but Alonso's fear of equal driver treatment at Ferrari (where have we seen that before) was the reason Kimi had to go... Not exactly a good reason to be grateful for his entertaining tantrums, is it?

Fiki, you know I love you ;) , but it is about time that you wake up from that dream in which Raikkonen was perfect for Ferrari but the bad guy came in and bought him out of his seat because he was afraid of competition.

Raikkonen failed to deliver what Ferrari expected, and they decided to get rid of him and get Alonso instead. You may argue that Ferrari made a mistake; you may argue that they should have known in advance what they were getting in Raikkonen; you may argue that it was a matter of character and not of driving skills. But to claim that Santander was calling the shots in the most powerful house in F1 (sponsored by Philip Morris) is absurd, and you know it.


this all day.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:57 pm 
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Zatoichi wrote:
Adit N. wrote:
Zatoichi wrote:
swillis wrote:
Besides that, wow the Nando and Ferrari hate is nearly boiling over. Depending on what videos you could get your hands on it looked like Seb had passed under yellows. Footage implying he did was MUCH easier to find than the one which showed the marshal and his flag. Once it had come to light, that was it, end of, bring on 2013.


Adit N. wrote:
If I remember correctly, it was a YouTube video which started it all, followed by the media and fans via social networking. Not Alonso, nor Ferrari.

Whatever Ferrari did (asking for clarification or keep silence) people wouldn't stop protesting the result until they get an explanation from FIA.


Do you guys really think Ferrari has no access to the HD driver feeds? Do you really think they have to rely on grainy SD Youtube videos?

So question: Why was it so difficult for Ferrari to review Vettels 4th lap themselves, spot the green flag and simply bury the case? They could have told their fans: "We've reviewed the video, there was a green flag when Vettel overtook, he did nothing wrong, case closed"

Why was there a need for "clarification" from FIA? Please explain. :?:


Yes, there was a green flag but the light on Vettel's dash and the FIA official circuit map was still yellow. What's wrong if they want a clarification, eh? It's not against the rules and they had every right to do so.


So, you think Ferrari doesn't know the rules, so they had a need for clarification? You think Alonso wouldn't have passed Vergne if a marshall waves a green flag, because Ferrari thinks lights have precedence over flags? Well, that's really very unprofessional of Ferrari then. Maybe they should just READ THE RULES, and they could spare themselves a lot of asking...


AstoriaisBACK wrote:
This whole thread is a joke. The rules allow a team to ask for clarification, which Ferrari did or even protest the outcome of the race, which Ferrari didnt do. Any other team with this much evidence would have done the same thing and to say they wouldnt would be a lie. Too many monday morning quarterbacks but that is reality.


AAARGHHHH, what evidence??? The evidence of a green flag, which could be cleary seen on Vettels HD driver feed? There was NOTHING debatable about Vettel's move, NOTHING. It was completely NORMAL...


If nothing was debatable, there wouldn't be a debate as a starter.

For "Maybe they should just READ THE RULES, and they could spare themselves a lot of asking...", I give you an example, over the season many teams have asked the FIA about legality of Red Bulls' cars. If the rules were so clear why they were still asking about this and that? You would say they don't know the rules either?

Nothing wrong about asking for clarification.

And as for "You think Alonso wouldn't have passed Vergne if a marshall waves a green flag, because Ferrari thinks lights have precedence over flags?", how would I know? I am not him. But even if he did and Red Bull made the protest, I'm not going to say Red Bull and Vettel are disgraceful and dishonor the sport.

Calm down. I'm not here to defend Alonso nor Ferrari. I simply am just giving my opinion.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:28 pm 
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iceman_fan90 wrote:
We all know about Alonso and Ferrari's underhanded tactics over the years but reading this opinion piece on PF1 that lays it all out in one article really makes one reflect on it http://www.planetf1.com/editorial/8295279/Opinion-Losing-It. How long can the FIA deem such behavior as in any way acceptable? What kind of example does this set for the kids watching when they see one of the standard-bearers of the sport behave in such unsporting manner? I fear that all this will drag down the reputation of F1, clearly Luca and Fernando don't give a damn about the reputation of the sport when they raise questions about the legitimacy of the world champion. Looks like Bernie is finally starting to see the light but I fear the damage might already be done. Now that Ferrari's claims are widely acknoledged as bogus, FIA should make Ferrari publically apologize to Vettel & Red Bull, that's the only way this mess can be resolved and respect restored to F1 in the eyes of the public. It will also make sure that in the future teams don't go out spewing complete crap without having anything to back it up


Ummm...Where do I start??? Tactics ??? Vettel is the first one to start sceaming over the radio when things don't go his way...Like when his car wasn't the best for the first few races...He was a baby....Whining about everything....because he can't make a bad car good....That's the difference here...Alonso made the third best car into a contender....If any other team had an opportunity to inquire about an illegal pass that would hand them a WDC.....they would do it....Don't cry the blues because an inferior car with a superior driver almost won....Consistancy kept them in it...even when the car was bad, points continued to come....You can't say that about Vettel...They had the best package down the stretch, next to McLaren, not Ferrari, but they were there....Reputation???? C'mon, I think RedBull fans were more worried about losing the championship to a lousy car than a superior driver...Put Vettel in an underachieving car, and see if he can do what Alonso did....That Ferrari was a disaster from the get go...yet...they almost pulled it off....Hmmmmmmmm......Respect????yeah,,,I think Alonso gained the respect of alot of F1 fans this year...You can't take that away from him....

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:55 am 
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Blake wrote:
iceman_fan90 wrote:
We all know about Alonso and Ferrari's underhanded tactics over the years but reading this opinion piece on PF1 that lays it all out in one article really makes one reflect on it http://www.planetf1.com/editorial/8295279/Opinion-Losing-It. How long can the FIA deem such behavior as in any way acceptable? What kind of example does this set for the kids watching when they see one of the standard-bearers of the sport behave in such unsporting manner? I fear that all this will drag down the reputation of F1, clearly Luca and Fernando don't give a damn about the reputation of the sport when they raise questions about the legitimacy of the world champion. Looks like Bernie is finally starting to see the light but I fear the damage might already be done. Now that Ferrari's claims are widely acknoledged as bogus, FIA should make Ferrari publically apologize to Vettel & Red Bull, that's the only way this mess can be resolved and respect restored to F1 in the eyes of the public. It will also make sure that in the future teams don't go out spewing complete crap without having anything to back it up


That article is a biased poor excuse piece of fairy cakes journalism, but it statifies you, so I guess it reached it's intended audience. It is full of suppositions, unsubstantiated claims and dubious conclusions. Only PF1 would have even published it... which is why I seldom read the PF1 homepage, something that most of us who have frequented this forum for years have learned to do.

Do you honestly believe that that Ferrari's request for clarification of questionable situation is BTSID? Have you any clue what Bringing the Sport into Disrepute really is? I seriously doubt it. Ferrari has nothing to apologize for, they acted within their rights and in the proper manner in requesting clarification. If you and the other anti-Ferrari/Alonso faction of this forum (and the person who wrote the article) can't handle it, that is your problem, not theirs!

This is such massive overreaction that it defies belief. Get over it.
:uhoh:



This.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:00 am 
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Adit N. wrote:
Zatoichi wrote:
Adit N. wrote:
Zatoichi wrote:
swillis wrote:
Besides that, wow the Nando and Ferrari hate is nearly boiling over. Depending on what videos you could get your hands on it looked like Seb had passed under yellows. Footage implying he did was MUCH easier to find than the one which showed the marshal and his flag. Once it had come to light, that was it, end of, bring on 2013.


Adit N. wrote:
If I remember correctly, it was a YouTube video which started it all, followed by the media and fans via social networking. Not Alonso, nor Ferrari.

Whatever Ferrari did (asking for clarification or keep silence) people wouldn't stop protesting the result until they get an explanation from FIA.


Do you guys really think Ferrari has no access to the HD driver feeds? Do you really think they have to rely on grainy SD Youtube videos?

So question: Why was it so difficult for Ferrari to review Vettels 4th lap themselves, spot the green flag and simply bury the case? They could have told their fans: "We've reviewed the video, there was a green flag when Vettel overtook, he did nothing wrong, case closed"

Why was there a need for "clarification" from FIA? Please explain. :?:


Yes, there was a green flag but the light on Vettel's dash and the FIA official circuit map was still yellow. What's wrong if they want a clarification, eh? It's not against the rules and they had every right to do so.


So, you think Ferrari doesn't know the rules, so they had a need for clarification? You think Alonso wouldn't have passed Vergne if a marshall waves a green flag, because Ferrari thinks lights have precedence over flags? Well, that's really very unprofessional of Ferrari then. Maybe they should just READ THE RULES, and they could spare themselves a lot of asking...


AstoriaisBACK wrote:
This whole thread is a joke. The rules allow a team to ask for clarification, which Ferrari did or even protest the outcome of the race, which Ferrari didnt do. Any other team with this much evidence would have done the same thing and to say they wouldnt would be a lie. Too many monday morning quarterbacks but that is reality.


AAARGHHHH, what evidence??? The evidence of a green flag, which could be cleary seen on Vettels HD driver feed? There was NOTHING debatable about Vettel's move, NOTHING. It was completely NORMAL...


If nothing was debatable, there wouldn't be a debate as a starter.

For "Maybe they should just READ THE RULES, and they could spare themselves a lot of asking...", I give you an example, over the season many teams have asked the FIA about legality of Red Bulls' cars. If the rules were so clear why they were still asking about this and that? You would say they don't know the rules either?

Nothing wrong about asking for clarification.

And as for "You think Alonso wouldn't have passed Vergne if a marshall waves a green flag, because Ferrari thinks lights have precedence over flags?", how would I know? I am not him. But even if he did and Red Bull made the protest, I'm not going to say Red Bull and Vettel are disgraceful and dishonor the sport.

Calm down. I'm not here to defend Alonso nor Ferrari. I simply am just giving my opinion.



Sure, at first it was debatable. Why? Cause nobody saw the damn green flag with the Yellow lights flashing in your face. But after someone pointed out the green flag that the FAMOUS youtube video on Vettel Yellow Flag missed, it eneded the debate. Since Sky Sports knows people won't listen, they try to tell fans too with an analysis of the pass. They also said the GREEN flag was waved to Vettel, saying human manual flags must come takes priority over flashing lights.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:51 am 
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Why are we debating over the flags again? Read my post again. People out there must have reasons for protesting. Do you think all, and I mean all people, they really know about the details of what is going on? No. For some, all they know is there's a controversy regarding Vettel's winning the championship, something about overtaking under yellow flags or something like that. And whose fault is it? Who started that? Alonso? Ferrari? No. It was a YouTube video, media and the fans itself.

My main point here is: Alonso and Ferrari brought disgrace and dishonor to the sport? That is harsh. Whatever Ferrari did, the news was already out there.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:56 pm 
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Just for reference when did this incident happen with Vettel?


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