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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:24 pm 
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Aren't they all bad losers?

I remember Vettel crying after Jenson won in 2009. Then in a formula1.com interview he went on to say he hates losing and Red Bull should have won that year.

I don't think you get to F1 level if you're ok with losing.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:39 pm 
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Most drivers do.

But honestly, even though I have tremendous respect for the guy, Alonso is one of the worst.

Him and Ferrari must be immensely frustrated, they should be match made in heaven, arguably the best driver in the sport at the moment driving for his dream team and the most successful team in the sport, yet in three years of partnership they have been outshone by a combo they perceive to be a young pretender driving a rocketship fuelled by technical loopholes.

For the first 3/4 of the year Alonso did nothing wrong and maxmised everything, but I think Vettel's four race winning streak really did sap the fight out of them and that is when they began to resort to their backhanded comments and unsporting tactics.

But even after all that and Alonso doing everything he needed to do, even with Felipe playing lapdog supreme, they could not overcome the RBR and Alonso goes another year winless, his youth beginning to slip away and it now being 6 seasons since he won his last championship, I struggle to remember if there has been a gap that large between a world champion winning his last title and going on to win another.

Alonso is bullish, he knows he is good and he must be sick to his stomach, while he makes all these comments about titles not mattering = he must be absolutely rabid that he is not a triple or even quadruple world champion by now.

He is a very strange character El Nano, immensely talented and has the capacity to have a resolve of iron, but at the same time he has extremely emotional and can flip-flop from this steely samurai warrior that he likes to think of himself as to an ungracious little baby.

Quite honestly, I do not know how much longer I expect to see Alonso in the sport if he does not win a world title soon, it seems to me another couple of years of fighting an uphill battle might be to much for him, we have already seen cracks in his armour this year to the extent that we have not seen since 2007.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:42 pm 
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Pot calling the kettle black.

Every driver has problems with losing.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:43 pm 
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H-Holloway wrote:
Most drivers do.

But honestly, even though I have tremendous respect for the guy, Alonso is one of the worst.

Him and Ferrari must be immensely frustrated, they should be match made in heaven, arguably the best driver in the sport at the moment driving for his dream team and the most successful team in the sport, yet in three years of partnership they have been outshone by a combo they perceive to be a young pretender driving a rocketship fuelled by technical loopholes.

For the first 3/4 of the year Alonso did nothing wrong and maxmised everything, but I think Vettel's four race winning streak really did sap the fight out of them and that is when they began to resort to their backhanded comments and unsporting tactics.

But even after all that and Alonso doing everything he needed to do, even with Felipe playing lapdog supreme, they could not overcome the RBR and Alonso goes another year winless, his youth beginning to slip away and it now being 6 seasons since he won his last championship, I struggle to remember if there has been a gap that large between a world champion winning his last title and going on to win another.

Alonso is bullish, he knows he is good and he must be sick to his stomach, while he makes all these comments about titles not mattering = he must be absolutely rabid that he is not a triple or even quadruple world champion by now.

He is a very strange character El Nano, immensely talented and has the capacity to have a resolve of iron, but at the same time he has extremely emotional and can flip-flop from this steely samurai warrior that he likes to think of himself as to an ungracious little baby.

Quite honestly, I do not know how much longer I expect to see Alonso in the sport if he does not win a world title soon, it seems to me another couple of years of fighting an uphill battle might be to much for him, we have already seen cracks in his armour this year to the extent that we have not seen since 2007.

Very well said! :thumbup:

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:51 pm 
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H-Holloway wrote:
Most drivers do.

But honestly, even though I have tremendous respect for the guy, Alonso is one of the worst.

Him and Ferrari must be immensely frustrated, they should be match made in heaven, arguably the best driver in the sport at the moment driving for his dream team and the most successful team in the sport, yet in three years of partnership they have been outshone by a combo they perceive to be a young pretender driving a rocketship fuelled by technical loopholes.

For the first 3/4 of the year Alonso did nothing wrong and maxmised everything, but I think Vettel's four race winning streak really did sap the fight out of them and that is when they began to resort to their backhanded comments and unsporting tactics.

But even after all that and Alonso doing everything he needed to do, even with Felipe playing lapdog supreme, they could not overcome the RBR and Alonso goes another year winless, his youth beginning to slip away and it now being 6 seasons since he won his last championship, I struggle to remember if there has been a gap that large between a world champion winning his last title and going on to win another.

Alonso is bullish, he knows he is good and he must be sick to his stomach, while he makes all these comments about titles not mattering = he must be absolutely rabid that he is not a triple or even quadruple world champion by now.

He is a very strange character El Nano, immensely talented and has the capacity to have a resolve of iron, but at the same time he has extremely emotional and can flip-flop from this steely samurai warrior that he likes to think of himself as to an ungracious little baby.

Quite honestly, I do not know how much longer I expect to see Alonso in the sport if he does not win a world title soon, it seems to me another couple of years of fighting an uphill battle might be to much for him, we have already seen cracks in his armour this year to the extent that we have not seen since 2007.


:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:58 pm 
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Alonso is a competitive guy. Don't see the problem with him being a bad loser, 90% of world champions/any kind of champions in any sport are bad losers!

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 4:38 pm 
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I can see Alonso having a fit with Ferrari if they don't come up with the goods from the off next year. When you're regularly touted as the best my the majority of the F1 community, and you haven't won a title for 6 consecutive seasons, despite being in THE team of F1 (supposedly)... and seeing the chance to become the youngest triple champion in history go up in smoke before his eyes despite his best efforts, I think he'll get fed up of it, which would be a shame. I've enjoyed seeing the 2012 Alonso. Vettel's come in and clean sweeped, when Alonso/Hamilton were expecting to be the ones to do it, and I think that's getting to them.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:41 pm 
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Spot on by Marko, at least this time.

It's obvious that no driver likes to lose and some of them are overreacting in a way or another(Alonso showing his fist in Abu Dhabi 2010, Vettel complaining like a spoilt brat in the radio when Hamilton passed him in Austin, etc) but when it comes to politics / off track / controversies, Alonso and his team(whatever may it be, Renault / Mclaren / Ferrari) are always the prima donna.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:45 pm 
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H-Holloway wrote:
Most drivers do.

But honestly, even though I have tremendous respect for the guy, Alonso is one of the worst.

Him and Ferrari must be immensely frustrated, they should be match made in heaven, arguably the best driver in the sport at the moment driving for his dream team and the most successful team in the sport, yet in three years of partnership they have been outshone by a combo they perceive to be a young pretender driving a rocketship fuelled by technical loopholes.

For the first 3/4 of the year Alonso did nothing wrong and maxmised everything, but I think Vettel's four race winning streak really did sap the fight out of them and that is when they began to resort to their backhanded comments and unsporting tactics.

But even after all that and Alonso doing everything he needed to do, even with Felipe playing lapdog supreme, they could not overcome the RBR and Alonso goes another year winless, his youth beginning to slip away and it now being 6 seasons since he won his last championship, I struggle to remember if there has been a gap that large between a world champion winning his last title and going on to win another.

Alonso is bullish, he knows he is good and he must be sick to his stomach, while he makes all these comments about titles not mattering = he must be absolutely rabid that he is not a triple or even quadruple world champion by now.

He is a very strange character El Nano, immensely talented and has the capacity to have a resolve of iron, but at the same time he has extremely emotional and can flip-flop from this steely samurai warrior that he likes to think of himself as to an ungracious little baby.

Quite honestly, I do not know how much longer I expect to see Alonso in the sport if he does not win a world title soon, it seems to me another couple of years of fighting an uphill battle might be to much for him, we have already seen cracks in his armour this year to the extent that we have not seen since 2007.


+1 on this. Alonso does seem to throw his toys out the pram more often than others when things are not going his way.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:07 pm 
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Balibari wrote:
If you keep winning all the time it's easy to be gracious.
If you keep getting pipped at the post it's easy to be a sore loser.

Relatively speaking Red Bull seem no better at being gracious than Ferrari are at losing, and it seems the former should be easier than the latter.


About the only sensible post in the entire thread.

I see many Helmet fans around here that are quite not happy enough with their boy's victory and need to insult others, just as Vettel and Marko have done this season and others. For the most banal, obscure, or long-past reasons, be them right or wrong. It just seems to be their way.

In the end, I guess, it must be true the title feels just a little hollow. Otherwise they should be celebrating.

Amazing...


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:23 pm 
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-ZeroGravityToilet- wrote:
Balibari wrote:
If you keep winning all the time it's easy to be gracious.
If you keep getting pipped at the post it's easy to be a sore loser.

Relatively speaking Red Bull seem no better at being gracious than Ferrari are at losing, and it seems the former should be easier than the latter.


About the only sensible post in the entire thread.

I see many Helmet fans around here that are quite not happy enough with their boy's victory and need to insult others, just as Vettel and Marko have done this season and others. For the most banal, obscure, or long-past reasons, be them right or wrong. It just seems to be their way.

In the end, I guess, it must be true the title feels just a little hollow. Otherwise they should be celebrating.

Amazing...


Well in fairness you are just trying to stir them up more with this post.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:55 am 
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This is a joke. All the greats are like this. You will see Sebatsian act the same way when he has a poor car. What about the Senna and Prost battles. Doesn't even compare to Alonso and those two were legends. That's what makes drivers great, that's why they win multiple titles not just one like Lewis, Jenson and Kimi. They're good, but not great because they aren't willing no cross the line to beat their rivals. How do die hard fans not know this about the sport?


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:49 am 
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Alonso was big enough to congratulate Vettel when he won the title, he was even man enough to go to the McLaren garage and congratulate Hamilton when he won the title in 2008, not really the actions of a bad loser.

When I think back a couple of races to Vettel screaming on the radio "it was a stupid overtake" as Hamilton out raced him,sounding as though he was almost in tears. Or earlier in the season screaming at his team to "make the car go faster", maybe Marko would do better focusing on his own driver.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:18 am 
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-ZeroGravityToilet- wrote:
About the only sensible post in the entire thread.

I see many Helmet fans around here that are quite not happy enough with their boy's victory and need to insult others, just as Vettel and Marko have done this season and others. For the most banal, obscure, or long-past reasons, be them right or wrong. It just seems to be their way.

In the end, I guess, it must be true the title feels just a little hollow. Otherwise they should be celebrating.

Amazing...

I don't understand the assumption that just because people want to discuss matters in the sport on here they are labelled as 'sore winners'. Morever just because people agree with Marko's comments doesn't make them sore winners - it is possible to see the validity in his comments regardless of allegiances.

Here's a novel idea. Instead of attacking the posters, why not offer your opinion on Marko's comments. Taking out the 'other drivers do it too' argument, which IMO is like saying "well he killed someone so therefore let's not discuss the fact that I killed someone". Do you think that what he has said about Alonso is incorrect and if so, why?

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:26 am 
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LKS1 wrote:
kai_ wrote:
LKS1 wrote:
kai_ wrote:
Marko is right. Alonso has demonstrated time and time again that he doesn't cope well when things aren't going his way.

In 2006 after Schumacher took the WDC lead at China he accused his Renault team of not wanting him to win the WDC and only wanting the WCC because he was off to McLaren the following year.

In 2007 at the Hungarian GP he attempted to blackmail Dennis into making him the #1 driver at McLaren and when Dennis refused he went to the FIA with emails regarding the Ferrari data.

Since Vettel took the WDC lead in 2012 we've had him talk about racing Newey and making implications that Hamilton is better than Vettel. When Vettel actually does win a furore erupts over a green flag that was never in doubt, with Alonso posting the message on twitter: "I don't believe in miracles, but......" and Ferrari then clarifying the matter with the FIA.

Just because Marko himself behaves badly at times and makes statements that could be regarded as being a sore loser doesn't mean that what he's saying here is inaccurate.

Whilst I agree with everything else, I though Ron went to the FIA when Alonso tried to blackmail him? Edit - sorry, I realise too late you meant Ron (not Alonso) went to the FIA with the info.

No, I did mean Alonso.

My understanding of how that played out is that Dennis rang Mosley after Alonso had stormed out and relayed the conversation but said to Mosley that there was nothing in it. Meanwhile, two weeks prior Alonso had revealed the emails to Briatore, who had in turn told his buddy Ecclestone about them. After he stormed out Alonso went back to Briatore who went back to Ecclestone who went to Mosley and said, "Well actually old friend there's some truth in this........".

Mosley believed that Dennis knew all along and had been lying to him, hence why their already tense relationship reached breaking point.

First time I've heard that! As an ordinary F1 fan, I've no inside knowledge so have to go with the info provided, but it always seemed odd that Ron would 'phone the FIA to admit they had stolen info just 'cos Alonso had demanded no. 1 status on the back of knowing this.


chican wrote:
LKS1 wrote:
First time I've heard that! As an ordinary F1 fan, I've no inside knowledge so have to go with the info provided, but it always seemed odd that Ron would 'phone the FIA to admit they had stolen info just 'cos Alonso had demanded no. 1 status on the back of knowing this.
Yes, somebody should rewrite History for their millions because it seems there's still a lot of misinformation going round...



Aren't you the one, on other thread, who loves to ask for evidence

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsp ... 003042.stm

Enjoy this.

Quote:
During the row, Alonso threatened to go to the FIA with evidence, but Dennis then phoned FIA president Max Mosley himself.


This is not attributed to anyone, it was a known information publicly. Some Alonso fans would go as far as trying to re-write history to make him look good.. why? He has a perfect image of being an asshole of a person, who as much as he could make you hate him, he will shut you up on the track.. Embrace that Alonso fans, don't try change it

That being said, we still don't know how bad Vettel when he loses.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:45 am 
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Going through old article is very entertaining.

If McLaren were not caught, they would've still lost the WCC to Ferrari, again, because of Alonso. In Hungary, it's not that only Alonso got the penalty, the team got their points from that GP docked (need to double check), so that will make Ferrari have higher points at the end of the season.

This guy is a destruction machine. He goes to McLaren, makes them lose not only the WDC but the WCC and causes the biggest fine in F1 history. Goes back to Renault and causes the Crash-gate and because of him Massa lost an almost certain WDC. Goes to Ferrari, makes them fire their last WDC and then causes the "Fernando is faster than you" scandal

Unbelievable.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:55 am 
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F1nsider wrote:
Going through old article is very entertaining.

If McLaren were not caught, they would've still lost the WCC to Ferrari, again, because of Alonso. In Hungary, it's not that only Alonso got the penalty, the team got their points from that GP docked (need to double check), so that will make Ferrari have higher points at the end of the season.

This guy is a destruction machine. He goes to McLaren, makes them lose not only the WDC but the WCC and causes the biggest fine in F1 history. Goes back to Renault and causes the Crash-gate and because of him Massa lost an almost certain WDC. Goes to Ferrari, makes them fire their last WDC and then causes the "Fernando is faster than you" scandal

Unbelievable.


So you don't think the fact that McLaren cheated did have anything to do with the collapse? No it was all the spaniards fault wasn't it? :uhoh:


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:01 am 
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AnRs wrote:
F1nsider wrote:
Going through old article is very entertaining.

If McLaren were not caught, they would've still lost the WCC to Ferrari, again, because of Alonso. In Hungary, it's not that only Alonso got the penalty, the team got their points from that GP docked (need to double check), so that will make Ferrari have higher points at the end of the season.

This guy is a destruction machine. He goes to McLaren, makes them lose not only the WDC but the WCC and causes the biggest fine in F1 history. Goes back to Renault and causes the Crash-gate and because of him Massa lost an almost certain WDC. Goes to Ferrari, makes them fire their last WDC and then causes the "Fernando is faster than you" scandal

Unbelievable.


So you don't think the fact that McLaren cheated did have anything to do with the collapse? No it was all the spaniards fault wasn't it? :uhoh:


So Alonso is the good guy here? I'm not sure what are you trying to say

Edit: what collapse are ou talking about? The Hungary incident had nothing todo with the spygate, plus, the only driver who was using the information was Alonso with the help of Pedro, hence the "0.6 gain" he claims he brought to McLaren. There's just no way whatsoever you can spin this to make him look good


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:08 am 
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Well Alonso isn't the only one doing it right? They have been quite a handful of 'bad' losers in the past too. You can be criticizing him right now, but how would this season turn out without him challenging for the title? How 'exciting' will the title fight be with Sebastian Vettel and Kimi Raikonnen when he's trailing him by uhh I don't know around 50 points? By the looks of it, vettel could've taken the championship before Interlagos. Do try to respect other drivers and of course emotions run high when they just lost a wdc after trying like for three years and all of them got taken away by only a few points. I mean how would you feel if your in Fernando's state? Just shut up and think.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:22 am 
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F1nsider wrote:
Going through old article is very entertaining.

If McLaren were not caught, they would've still lost the WCC to Ferrari, again, because of Alonso. In Hungary, it's not that only Alonso got the penalty, the team got their points from that GP docked (need to double check), so that will make Ferrari have higher points at the end of the season.

This guy is a destruction machine. He goes to McLaren, makes them lose not only the WDC but the WCC and causes the biggest fine in F1 history. Goes back to Renault and causes the Crash-gate and because of him Massa lost an almost certain WDC. Goes to Ferrari, makes them fire their last WDC and then causes the "Fernando is faster than you" scandal

Unbelievable.


I agree, what you wrote is unbelievable.

Alonso baulked at Hamilton not honouring a qualifying agreement that Alonso himself had honoured throughout the season, the blame could not possibly fall entirely on the Spaniard. What's more, you conveniently choose Hungary and no other race from that year where McLaren or another driver at that team competing for the championship, let's call him Lewis Hamilton, threw away that points lead in Shanghai.

Alonso caused Crashgate? Not only is there no proof of his complicity in the planning, nobody forced Piquet Jr to drive into that wall. Nobody at all. That was certainly his choice, Alonso didn't remotely drive Piquet Jr's car. I believe Nelsinho only went public because he lost his seat. We didn't know about the scandal until he was out on his ear. I can't prove that, but no more than anyone can prove that Alonso planned Crashgate.

Massa and Ferrari lost the title because of their stupid pit lane traffic light system, which should have been changed after the near miss in Valencia. I was not alone in screaming on the forums for them to change that system after that race. As it transpired in Singapore, it cost them more than the points they needed to take the title in Interlagos, even if Crashgate had never happened. They lost so much time with Massa sitting at the end of the pitlane alone. The race fixing scandal just exacerbated the scale of Ferrari's embarrassment that day, but didn't actually alter the outcome of the championship. The Crashgate is just a big "what if" used to beat Hamilton over the head, just as the current green flag/yellow light on steering wheel will be used to beat Vettel over the head with in years to come.

Alonso made Ferrari fire Kimi? One of the biggest teams in the sport, with the financial backing of Philip Morris and other sponsors in addition to Santander, and he single handedly prevailed in the boardroom before he joined the team? Hell, that's amazing, the only reason Newey is not at Ferrari must be because Alonso isn't trying hard enough. He's already running things according to you. Raikkonen was a WDC yes, so was Alonso and you already wrote that Massa lost an almost certain WDC and finished close to Kimi in 2007 and was running with him in 2009 so forgive me if I don't back you on that theory either.

"Fernando is faster than you." Guilty as charged, though Ferrari weren't the only ones to have used team orders after 2002, they just weren't very subtle on that day and were fed up of the deceit up and down the pitlane. They opened up the debate and there was consensus among commentators that whether you agreed with the ethics or not, Ferrari were not the only ones.

Alonso is a driver where scandal is never far away, I acknowledge that. If the FIA had not given him immunity in exchange for his evidence in the 2007 scandal he would probably have faced some sort of ban, but the need to charge Hamilton too, as both were aware, under requirements of consistency put paid to that. Losing two star drivers would have been disastrous and Bernie was constantly trying to intefere in the case.

You and others are really giving him too much credit for what he is capable of. As far as him having problems when he loses, he took a long time to recover from 2007, I think he didn't truly recover until he moved to Ferrari. He had a mediocre season in 2009, even accounting for the car.

This season, he has said a few things, but this has been under adversity after 6 seasons without a championship. I think he is much stronger now. I have a yearbook from the 1998 season, Schumacher was not always complementary about his team, or happy about things.

In 2007, Alonso was the double world champion in a very quick car and should have been mentally stronger. The way in which he lost his mental discipline was quite different to now.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:44 am 
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F1nsider wrote:
AnRs wrote:
F1nsider wrote:
Going through old article is very entertaining.

If McLaren were not caught, they would've still lost the WCC to Ferrari, again, because of Alonso. In Hungary, it's not that only Alonso got the penalty, the team got their points from that GP docked (need to double check), so that will make Ferrari have higher points at the end of the season.

This guy is a destruction machine. He goes to McLaren, makes them lose not only the WDC but the WCC and causes the biggest fine in F1 history. Goes back to Renault and causes the Crash-gate and because of him Massa lost an almost certain WDC. Goes to Ferrari, makes them fire their last WDC and then causes the "Fernando is faster than you" scandal

Unbelievable.


So you don't think the fact that McLaren cheated did have anything to do with the collapse? No it was all the spaniards fault wasn't it? :uhoh:


So Alonso is the good guy here? I'm not sure what are you trying to say

Edit: what collapse are ou talking about? The Hungary incident had nothing todo with the spygate, plus, the only driver who was using the information was Alonso with the help of Pedro, hence the "0.6 gain" he claims he brought to McLaren. There's just no way whatsoever you can spin this to make him look good


What I am saying is that if McLaren weren't cheating there would never have been anything to discuss in Hungary. "The only driver", have you someone on the inside or how do you know that, if you keep reading about what really happened in 2007 you will see that McLaren as a team had to apologize because it was widely spread..but keep blaiming the spaniard. x(


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:44 am 
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LKS1 wrote:
Seb isn't a great loser either... He may not be as political as Alonso, but he's younger - give him time...

Both display unattractive qualities when going through difficult times. It seems to be a developing trend amongst F1 drivers?


Some of the best drivers of all time had those qualities, e.g. Senna, Schumacher. I'm not saying its ideal, it just happens.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:35 am 
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F1nsider wrote:
Aren't you the one, on other thread, who loves to ask for evidence

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsp ... 003042.stm

Enjoy this.

I do know that story very well, and I think Dennis is the ultimate responsible of McLaren's fine, not Fernando. Fernando reacted too impusively, but he took his words back right after the argument.

http://carloscastella.wordpress.com/2011/01/26/08-–-una-piedra-en-el-zapato/ wrote:
Pero antes de la carrera, el domingo por la mañana, se produce un hecho trascendental: un Alonso furibundo entra en el despacho de Dennis, discute con él y con Martin Whitmarsh y les amenaza con enviar a la FIA los mails comprometedores que guarda en su ordenador, y que demuestran que McLaren recibía información desde febrero. Ignoro el como y el porqué de la discusión (insisto: no tengo ninguna información fiable), pero lo cierto es que al acabar la misma Dennis se asusta y comete el error de llamar a Mosley. Le cuenta al Presidente que uno de sus pilotos tiene esa información, le dice que él no sabía nada de eso y que por ello quiere ser el primero en informarle, que McLaren siempre ha colaborado en la investigación y que lo sigue haciendo como lo demuestra su llamada.

Unos minutos más tarde el manager de Alonso habla con Dennis, le asegura que todo ha sido un “calentón” y que por supuesto Alonso no hará nada de lo que ha dicho. Dennis vuelve a llamar a Mosley para contarle eso y decirle que todo ha sido una falsa alarma.

Pero Mosley no se lo traga.


Google Translator wrote:
But before the race, on Sunday morning, is a momentous event: a furious Alonso enters the office of Dennis, argues with him and with Martin Whitmarsh and threatens to send them to the FIA the incriminating emails stored in your computer, and to show that he received information from McLaren February. I do not know the how and why of the discussion (I repeat: I have no reliable information), but the fact is that at the end of the same Dennis gets scared and makes the mistake of calling Mosley. He tells the President that one of its pilots has that information, he said that he knew nothing about it and therefore want to be the first to tell you, that McLaren has always cooperated in the investigation and continues to do so as evidenced by their called. A few minutes later the manager talks to Dennis Alonso, assures him that everything was a "heater" and of course Alonso will do nothing of what he said. Dennis Mosley called again to tell him that and tell him that it was all a false alarm.But Mosley is not buying.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:46 am 
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Marko is a tool couldnt care less what he says though its funny coming from him whos driver is a sore loser too.. or do they call that passion I wander? ......


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:47 am 
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callMEcrazy wrote:
LKS1 wrote:
Some of the best drivers of all time had those qualities, e.g. Senna, Schumacher. I'm not saying its ideal, it just happens.


Very true. Some, like Prost, were more subtle than others but they made their dissatisfaction with losing known in their own ways. I suppose it comes with having that extra competitive edge.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:48 am 
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chican wrote:
F1nsider wrote:
Aren't you the one, on other thread, who loves to ask for evidence

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsp ... 003042.stm

Enjoy this.

I do know that story very well, and I think Dennis is the ultimate responsible of McLaren's fine, not Fernando. Fernando reacted too impusively, but he took his words back right after the argument.

http://carloscastella.wordpress.com/2011/01/26/08-–-una-piedra-en-el-zapato/ wrote:
Pero antes de la carrera, el domingo por la mañana, se produce un hecho trascendental: un Alonso furibundo entra en el despacho de Dennis, discute con él y con Martin Whitmarsh y les amenaza con enviar a la FIA los mails comprometedores que guarda en su ordenador, y que demuestran que McLaren recibía información desde febrero. Ignoro el como y el porqué de la discusión (insisto: no tengo ninguna información fiable), pero lo cierto es que al acabar la misma Dennis se asusta y comete el error de llamar a Mosley. Le cuenta al Presidente que uno de sus pilotos tiene esa información, le dice que él no sabía nada de eso y que por ello quiere ser el primero en informarle, que McLaren siempre ha colaborado en la investigación y que lo sigue haciendo como lo demuestra su llamada.

Unos minutos más tarde el manager de Alonso habla con Dennis, le asegura que todo ha sido un “calentón” y que por supuesto Alonso no hará nada de lo que ha dicho. Dennis vuelve a llamar a Mosley para contarle eso y decirle que todo ha sido una falsa alarma.

Pero Mosley no se lo traga.


Google Translator wrote:
But before the race, on Sunday morning, is a momentous event: a furious Alonso enters the office of Dennis, argues with him and with Martin Whitmarsh and threatens to send them to the FIA the incriminating emails stored in your computer, and to show that he received information from McLaren February. I do not know the how and why of the discussion (I repeat: I have no reliable information), but the fact is that at the end of the same Dennis gets scared and makes the mistake of calling Mosley. He tells the President that one of its pilots has that information, he said that he knew nothing about it and therefore want to be the first to tell you, that McLaren has always cooperated in the investigation and continues to do so as evidenced by their called. A few minutes later the manager talks to Dennis Alonso, assures him that everything was a "heater" and of course Alonso will do nothing of what he said. Dennis Mosley called again to tell him that and tell him that it was all a false alarm.But Mosley is not buying.



just love that part :)

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:11 am 
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Denorth wrote:
just love that part :)
What I quoted is part of a longer article of several pages long, what the autor tried to remark is that he is not in possesion of the absolute truth, and so he is not writing about the details of that reunion.

If you play with fire, you get burnt. McLaren had been playing with fire the whole 07 season, they should have been more cautious, it was an unclean conscience what make Ron phone Max.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:34 am 
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especially for those who hasn't read it yet (it happened 5 years ago, you know ;) )

full transcription of FIA hearings about spygate. it was published by FIA publicly but now available via
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/wp-content/u ... 9-2007.pdf

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:38 am 
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chican wrote:
Denorth wrote:
just love that part :)
What I quoted is part of a longer article of several pages long, what the autor tried to remark is that he is not in possesion of the absolute truth, and so he is not writing about the details of that reunion.

If you play with fire, you get burnt. McLaren had been playing with fire the whole 07 season, they should have been more cautious, it was an unclean conscience what make Ron phone Max.



McLaren got stolen information and it was wrong and they paid for it (twice - fee and no money from TV rights), but Fernando was no whistler here either. he was a guy trying blackmailing his boss, not caring about sport reputation or anything and still he was allowed to fight for WDC. and lost it because of Hungary antics.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:13 am 
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Denorth wrote:
chican wrote:
Denorth wrote:
just love that part :)
What I quoted is part of a longer article of several pages long, what the autor tried to remark is that he is not in possesion of the absolute truth, and so he is not writing about the details of that reunion.

If you play with fire, you get burnt. McLaren had been playing with fire the whole 07 season, they should have been more cautious, it was an unclean conscience what make Ron phone Max.



McLaren got stolen information and it was wrong and they paid for it (twice - fee and no money from TV rights), but Fernando was no whistler here either. he was a guy trying blackmailing his boss, not caring about sport reputation or anything and still he was allowed to fight for WDC. and lost it because of Hungary antics.
Did you read the words "heat of the moment" and "immediately apologised"?

It was better for the sport having a Ferrari winner (so it's not that paranoid McLaren lost it on purpose), that calmed things down at Maranello, otherwise spygate could have gotten worse. In Hungary Lewis played his hand as well, it was kind of tit for tat. Anyway I'm not saying Alonso is an angel.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:47 am 
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chican wrote:
Denorth wrote:
chican wrote:
Denorth wrote:
just love that part :)
What I quoted is part of a longer article of several pages long, what the autor tried to remark is that he is not in possesion of the absolute truth, and so he is not writing about the details of that reunion.

If you play with fire, you get burnt. McLaren had been playing with fire the whole 07 season, they should have been more cautious, it was an unclean conscience what make Ron phone Max.



McLaren got stolen information and it was wrong and they paid for it (twice - fee and no money from TV rights), but Fernando was no whistler here either. he was a guy trying blackmailing his boss, not caring about sport reputation or anything and still he was allowed to fight for WDC. and lost it because of Hungary antics.
Did you read the words "heat of the moment" and "immediately apologised"?

It was better for the sport having a Ferrari winner (so it's not that paranoid McLaren lost it on purpose), that calmed things down at Maranello, otherwise spygate could have gotten worse. In Hungary Lewis played his hand as well, it was kind of tit for tat. Anyway I'm not saying Alonso is an angel.


I read it of course. But him contacting Bernie some days later (already after he apologised) talking about emails doesn't really work with 'heat of the moment'.

Let's be honest, whether 'heat of the moment' or not, it doesn't change some facts. Fernando provided initial info against his team in exchange of personal immunity and the only reason was - they didn't give him N1 status.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:47 am 
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NvrDieYoung wrote:
Khazrak134 wrote:
tbh Red Bull arent exactly the best losers either.



at least they nvr undermine alonso 's achievement


I would't' call Ferrari/Alonso's talking as something that undermines Vettel's achievement. Rather, id say that it puts it into perspective.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:27 am 
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The article quoted above : "I have no reliable information. But the fact is....." There could be something lost in translation there, but if not, I'm afraid that sentence lost me.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:55 am 
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Well Vettel hates losing also and does not take it well. However, he does not try to improve his results through politics, in or after the race. Additionally, he doesn't demean the other top drivers to elevate himself or to play mind games with them. Vettel's only response to Alonso saying that he was racing Newey, was that it was an unfair statement because all of the engineers and crew had put a lot of effort into the car. :lol: He's also got the best sense of humor of the bunch. :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:56 am 
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bourbon19 wrote:
Well Vettel hates losing also and does not take it well. However, he does not try to improve his results through politics, in or after the race. Additionally, he doesn't demean the other top drivers to elevate himself or to play mind games with them.

He will when he needs to.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:58 am 
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Some of the posters think if they can prove its McLarens fault in 2007 that means Alonso is innocent!

Those are not related, McLaren was ultimately the bad guy there, and they paid for it, what I'm trying to highlight is Alonso's screwed up behaviour who put the team in that situation. Especially after knowingly working and benefiting from the stolen information he goes up to his bosses threatening them of revealing the big doodoo..

I thought we are discussing Alonso' behaviour in this thread, but its funny how some of his fans try to change the subject and blame everything around Alonso even for his own actions..

I agree with CallMeCrazy, I'm assuming he's an Alonso fan, and he admits that these characteristics are also shared by some of the greats in the sport. Alonso will never be a saint, he has said and done so many unsporting things. Why can't some of his fans just accept him as he is is beyond me

Is it good to not care about people? or be rude to reporters? No, but most if not all Kimi fans love him for that and don't want him to change. Why can't Alonso fans just accept that he's a bad guy :P ..

Brilliant driver nevertheless


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:25 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
Aren't they all bad losers?

I remember Vettel crying after Jenson won in 2009. Then in a formula1.com interview he went on to say he hates losing and Red Bull should have won that year.

I don't think you get to F1 level if you're ok with losing.


Did Vettel say they deserved to win, or that they should have won if they had gotten their act together?

Regardless, I don't see what is wrong about showing some emotion when things don't work out. It is quite different, when you have had a week to recover from a disappointment to be going on about how people call you a samurai or gladiator or making rather grandiose statements suggesting that you are now a great because you did so well even though you lost.

For all of his achievements, I do not recall Michael Schumacher ever suggesting that he is one of the greats, and if anyone in the F1 paddock is entitled to make that claim, it is him.

The truth of the matter is that a lot of F1 drivers are extremely jealous of Vettel and his success. Hamilton, Alonso and Button would like to think of themselves as the best on the grid, but here is a young upstart who has upended them and achieved more than they might achieve in their lifetimes. In 2006, it was all about Hamilton and in 2009, it was all about Button. But they are clearly bothered by Vettel, and it shows.

What ever happened to congratulating someone who has beaten you and moving on. Don't pass backhanded comments and let it go.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:08 am 
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mkone wrote:
I don't see what is wrong about showing some emotion when things don't work out.

It's funny that Alonso was ridiculed for just that when he shook his fist at Petrov in 2010. Yet I'm sure many would defend Vettel for giving Narain the finger this year.

Anyway my point is that they are all bad losers, Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton, all of them.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:39 am 
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mcdo wrote:
mkone wrote:
I don't see what is wrong about showing some emotion when things don't work out.

It's funny that Alonso was ridiculed for just that when he shook his fist at Petrov in 2010. Yet I'm sure many would defend Vettel for giving Narain the finger this year.

Anyway my point is that they are all bad losers, Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton, all of them.

I think the problem people have with Alonso shaking his fist at Petrov is that Petrov was innocent didn't deserve that treatment. I don't remember the Vettel vs. Narain incident but I suspect they weren't racing each other...

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:54 am 
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Covalent wrote:
mcdo wrote:
mkone wrote:
I don't see what is wrong about showing some emotion when things don't work out.

It's funny that Alonso was ridiculed for just that when he shook his fist at Petrov in 2010. Yet I'm sure many would defend Vettel for giving Narain the finger this year.

Anyway my point is that they are all bad losers, Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton, all of them.

I think the problem people have with Alonso shaking his fist at Petrov is that Petrov was innocent didn't deserve that treatment. I don't remember the Vettel vs. Narain incident but I suspect they weren't racing each other...

Narain was being lapped, and Vettel cut across too early, punctured his tyre on Narain's wing. Vettel's fault as far as I'm concerned, Narain had no where to go, on a long straight, and didn't turn. Vettel did his old Istanbull-Webber trick, cutting across too early. I'm sure others disagree and see it as Cucumber's fault.

Ofcourse another difference is that Seb continued the insults and slander after the race, which was only the 2nd race of the season, whereas Alonso had calmed down and said he didn't blame Petrov after Abu Dhabi, the last race and title decider. Big difference in race importance.

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