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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 11:03 am 
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jammin78 wrote:
Narain was being lapped, and Vettel cut across too early, punctured his tyre on Narain's wing. Vettel's fault as far as I'm concerned, Narain had no where to go, on a long straight, and didn't turn. Vettel did his old Istanbull-Webber trick, cutting across too early. I'm sure others disagree and see it as Cucumber's fault.


The marshalls did, for one :)
But I also disagree, particularly about the part in bold. Race footage clearly shows Narain moving to the right, clipping Vettels tyre. Vettel had left enough space. Might have been tight, but it was enough.

I agree about the post-race behaviour by the way.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 11:28 am 
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mds wrote:
jammin78 wrote:
Narain was being lapped, and Vettel cut across too early, punctured his tyre on Narain's wing. Vettel's fault as far as I'm concerned, Narain had no where to go, on a long straight, and didn't turn. Vettel did his old Istanbull-Webber trick, cutting across too early. I'm sure others disagree and see it as Cucumber's fault.


The marshalls did, for one :)
But I also disagree, particularly about the part in bold. Race footage clearly shows Narain moving to the right, clipping Vettels tyre. Vettel had left enough space. Might have been tight, but it was enough.

I agree about the post-race behaviour by the way.

And I respect yours and the marshalls view of the incident, I'm just biased. :)

And that is how you accept someone with a different opinion, take note, particular PF1 members haha.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:17 pm 
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F1nsider wrote:
Some of the posters think if they can prove its McLarens fault in 2007 that means Alonso is innocent!

Those are not related, McLaren was ultimately the bad guy there, and they paid for it, what I'm trying to highlight is Alonso's screwed up behaviour who put the team in that situation. Especially after knowingly working and benefiting from the stolen information he goes up to his bosses threatening them of revealing the big doodoo..

I thought we are discussing Alonso' behaviour in this thread, but its funny how some of his fans try to change the subject and blame everything around Alonso even for his own actions..

I agree with CallMeCrazy, I'm assuming he's an Alonso fan, and he admits that these characteristics are also shared by some of the greats in the sport. Alonso will never be a saint, he has said and done so many unsporting things. Why can't some of his fans just accept him as he is is beyond me

Is it good to not care about people? or be rude to reporters? No, but most if not all Kimi fans love him for that and don't want him to change. Why can't Alonso fans just accept that he's a bad guy :P ..

Brilliant driver nevertheless


Well, it's established that McLaren was guilty and noone has convicted Alonso off anything so what is your point?
I have a problem only with the bold part, it wasn't Alonsos actions that "put the team in that situation", it was the whole cheating that McLaren did that was the problem, if not for that nothing would have happened.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:31 pm 
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F1nsider wrote:
Some of the posters think if they can prove its McLarens fault in 2007 that means Alonso is innocent!

Those are not related, McLaren was ultimately the bad guy there, and they paid for it, what I'm trying to highlight is Alonso's screwed up behaviour who put the team in that situation. Especially after knowingly working and benefiting from the stolen information he goes up to his bosses threatening them of revealing the big doodoo..

I thought we are discussing Alonso' behaviour in this thread, but its funny how some of his fans try to change the subject and blame everything around Alonso even for his own actions..


Quite the contrary...

You are doing exactly what is the cause for those trying to "prove its McLarens fault in 2007". I see few fans who have said that Alonso was free of blame or fault, but ever since 2007 in this forum, I have seen many, many x more whose posts tend to blame Alonso for Spygate. Fans who are either attempting to rewrite history or simply don't know that Alonso was a player come later in the saga, not the source of McLaren's transgressions. You have done EXACTLY that with your "Alonso's screwed up behavior who put the team in that situation". MCLAREN put the team in that situation... Alonso was but a player in the scandal, not innnocent in any way, but definitely not the one put them there. .

Some of the responses to the Alonso bashing going on here, is response to those who have posted such drivel attmepting to rewrite history... just clearing up the air.

OK... that said, the Alonso bash can continue...
;)

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Last edited by Blake on Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:35 pm 
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Show me a good loser,
and I'll show you a loser.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:42 pm 
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AnRs wrote:
F1nsider wrote:
Some of the posters think if they can prove its McLarens fault in 2007 that means Alonso is innocent!

Those are not related, McLaren was ultimately the bad guy there, and they paid for it, what I'm trying to highlight is Alonso's screwed up behaviour who put the team in that situation. Especially after knowingly working and benefiting from the stolen information he goes up to his bosses threatening them of revealing the big doodoo..

I thought we are discussing Alonso' behaviour in this thread, but its funny how some of his fans try to change the subject and blame everything around Alonso even for his own actions..

I agree with CallMeCrazy, I'm assuming he's an Alonso fan, and he admits that these characteristics are also shared by some of the greats in the sport. Alonso will never be a saint, he has said and done so many unsporting things. Why can't some of his fans just accept him as he is is beyond me

Is it good to not care about people? or be rude to reporters? No, but most if not all Kimi fans love him for that and don't want him to change. Why can't Alonso fans just accept that he's a bad guy :P ..

Brilliant driver nevertheless


Well, it's established that McLaren was guilty and noone has convicted Alonso off anything so what is your point?
I have a problem only with the bold part, it wasn't Alonsos actions that "put the team in that situation", it was the whole cheating that McLaren did that was the problem, if not for that nothing would have happened.

well, to be fair, it was also established that Alonso was guilty, since it was his email exchange that was used as evidence against McLaren. He was granted immunity, which is why he (and PDR) wasn't convicted. Not saying he was the only one at fault, but lack of any convictions can't be used as proof of innocence either. Just saying


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:54 pm 
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daveyh21 wrote:
Show me a good loser,
and I'll show you a loser.

:thumbup: Wish I could have said it so succinctly

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:00 pm 
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potter84 wrote:
No one within f1 takes losing well, especially the top teams


Exactly! I always laugh when people like to single out Alonso and Vettel for this. If any one them were "good" losers they'd never have made it to F1 in the first place!


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:41 pm 
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Image

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This lad Vettel is good isn't he, he wins everything :nod:

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:14 pm 
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Barrichello was a good loser. He took losing with damn good grace... well, when he was told to. The rest of the time he bitched and moaned about Brawn not wanting to win :P

Massa is a very good loser, absolute grace.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:00 pm 
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Well, he is right. A bit rich coming from him though.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:11 pm 
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Proper Alonso bash-fest, this.

Re: 2007 - it seems to be largely forgotten that the entire McLaren team was aware that Nigel Stepney had informed Coughlan of the "sprung floor" device that Ferrari had run at Melbourne. Given that the entire hierarhcy knew this, it cant have been too much of a surprise that other members of the hierarchy were subsequently well aware of the other leakages coming through.

McLaren essentially tried to cover it with an internal investigation that would appear to have been rather selective in its nature. The emails between Alonso, PDR and Coughlan were not from private email accounts, they were from McLaren accounts and could easily have been sourced during any such investigation through a basic sweep. Ergo, I think Dennis et al were well aware that such emails (along with others and SMS messages emanating from other senior members of the team, which Mosley has always said would have convicted them anyway even if the Alonso emails had never come to light) existed and simply tried to cover it all up until Alonso decided to use their known existence as a threat to the team, at which point they had little choice but to 'fess up. From this point McLaren's strategy was to portray Alonso as a loose cannon within McLaren (hence all the stuff at the "trial" about Alonso being a recluse, implying that he would hide things from the team etc., and that tehrefore the team were shocked to learn about the earlier communications, which is a ridiculous defence given McLaren's history of corporate meticulousness).

As far as I'm concerned they tried to hang him out to dry to protect themselves. I have little sympathy for them.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:14 pm 
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I think most people have problems when they lose, never mind losing such a big prize.

And RBR are just as bad. If Alonso had won the WDC and it looked like he might have infringed on rules, they would have complained. It is simply the logical thing to do.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:24 pm 
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wj_gibson wrote:
Proper Alonso bash-fest, this.

Re: 2007 - it seems to be largely forgotten that the entire McLaren team was aware that Nigel Stepney had informed Coughlan of the "sprung floor" device that Ferrari had run at Melbourne. Given that the entire hierarhcy knew this, it cant have been too much of a surprise that other members of the hierarchy were subsequently well aware of the other leakages coming through.

McLaren essentially tried to cover it with an internal investigation that would appear to have been rather selective in its nature. The emails between Alonso, PDR and Coughlan were not from private email accounts, they were from McLaren accounts and could easily have been sourced during any such investigation through a basic sweep. Ergo, I think Dennis et al were well aware that such emails (along with others and SMS messages emanating from other senior members of the team, which Mosley has always said would have convicted them anyway even if the Alonso emails had never come to light) existed and simply tried to cover it all up until Alonso decided to use their known existence as a threat to the team, at which point they had little choice but to 'fess up. From this point McLaren's strategy was to portray Alonso as a loose cannon within McLaren (hence all the stuff at the "trial" about Alonso being a recluse, implying that he would hide things from the team etc., and that tehrefore the team were shocked to learn about the earlier communications, which is a ridiculous defence given McLaren's history of corporate meticulousness).

As far as I'm concerned they tried to hang him out to dry to protect themselves. I have little sympathy for them.

McLaren played dirty. They cheated, and were rightfully punished for their actions. But so did Alonso. They are both equally to blame and neither can pretend to be innocent in the whole affair.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 2:20 pm 
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wj_gibson wrote:
Proper Alonso bash-fest, this.

Re: 2007 - it seems to be largely forgotten that the entire McLaren team was aware that Nigel Stepney had informed Coughlan of the "sprung floor" device that Ferrari had run at Melbourne. Given that the entire hierarhcy knew this, it cant have been too much of a surprise that other members of the hierarchy were subsequently well aware of the other leakages coming through.

McLaren essentially tried to cover it with an internal investigation that would appear to have been rather selective in its nature. The emails between Alonso, PDR and Coughlan were not from private email accounts, they were from McLaren accounts and could easily have been sourced during any such investigation through a basic sweep. Ergo, I think Dennis et al were well aware that such emails (along with others and SMS messages emanating from other senior members of the team, which Mosley has always said would have convicted them anyway even if the Alonso emails had never come to light) existed and simply tried to cover it all up until Alonso decided to use their known existence as a threat to the team, at which point they had little choice but to 'fess up. From this point McLaren's strategy was to portray Alonso as a loose cannon within McLaren (hence all the stuff at the "trial" about Alonso being a recluse, implying that he would hide things from the team etc., and that tehrefore the team were shocked to learn about the earlier communications, which is a ridiculous defence given McLaren's history of corporate meticulousness).

As far as I'm concerned they tried to hang him out to dry to protect themselves. I have little sympathy for them.



Which is exactly how i see 2007 as well. RD hired an 'image coach' during that time and that guy fed the british press to make sure all the focus (and the blame) switched to Alonso. Worked perfectly, because until today a lot of people still see Alonso as the perfect villain here and not many made the effort of looking at the whole affair from different sides.

Coming back from the off- topic, RB after winning 3 titles in a row seem to be a bunch of bigmouths coupled with some inferiority complex, and who has the best 'political skills' here is out of question for me. For sure its not Alonso, who most of the time says what he thinks and certainly lacks a lot in the field of diplomacy. Instead, we have RB using quite a lot of 'politics' with even complaining to the press that other teams dare to fight them and FIA looking into the other direction most of the time. Or even complaining directly to other teams (like Marko- was it Marko?) storming the TR garage and making a fuss about Algersuari daring to hold up Vettel in- free practise. On a Friday. Well, they made sure the TR got out of their way pretty quick in the races after that.

For me there is no doubt who is using 'politics' here. Unfortunately neither Ferrari nor Alonso possess similar skills. Maybe they should hire RD's image coach.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 2:23 pm 
It's saddening and amazing how some people are so quick to dig up old dirty laundry.

If I was a team owners I'd want a driver who was dangerous if he did not succeed. I'd want a driver who threw things in the garage, unleashed a stream of profanity and foul language, just go crazy angry. I would want a driver who accepts nothing less than success.

Most successful drivers seek out and would do almost anything to attain the number one status. The list is very long, from Fangio on. What do you think the classic battle between Senna and Prost at McLaren was about?

Get real, racing does not involve cute loveable characters such a smurfs or pokeman, it's brutal and harsh.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 3:40 pm 
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Vettel seems 'King' when putting up a sour face if something doesn't work out. That's for sure, Marko, so get over it.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:17 pm 
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wj_gibson wrote:
Proper Alonso bash-fest, this.

I could not agree more with you, but I would not limit it to this specific thread: in the last few days, I have seen a number of them with exactly that purpose. And some which intended to bash other drivers too. Interestingly, I seem to see the same forumer names in most if not all of them.

peterh wrote:
Or even complaining directly to other teams (like Marko- was it Marko?) storming the TR garage and making a fuss about Algersuari daring to hold up Vettel in- free practise. On a Friday. Well, they made sure the TR got out of their way pretty quick in the races after that.

It was Marko: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXDI2HNLqoo


Last edited by morgana on Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:18 pm 
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When will people stop taking that penis seriously?

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:22 pm 
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morgana wrote:
peterh wrote:
Or even complaining directly to other teams (like Marko- was it Marko?) storming the TR garage and making a fuss about Algersuari daring to hold up Vettel in- free practise. On a Friday. Well, they made sure the TR got out of their way pretty quick in the races after that.

It was Marko: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXDI2HNLqoo


Everytime I see this clip it makes my blood boil, both Alguersuari and Buemi got a right royal shafting by Red Bull.

Red Bull do not want to develop drivers, they do not want to reer them and help through as they hone their craft, they just want to stumble around and find the next Vettel or, failing that, find the current one an amenable stooge.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 12:37 pm 
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wj_gibson wrote:
The emails between Alonso, PDR and Coughlan were not from private email accounts, they were from McLaren accounts and could easily have been sourced during any such investigation through a basic sweep. Ergo, I think Dennis et al were well aware that such emails


Don't want to derail this thread but would that have been legal in the UK? At least in Finland it's not, corporate account or not.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 12:50 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
wj_gibson wrote:
The emails between Alonso, PDR and Coughlan were not from private email accounts, they were from McLaren accounts and could easily have been sourced during any such investigation through a basic sweep. Ergo, I think Dennis et al were well aware that such emails


Don't want to derail this thread but would that have been legal in the UK? At least in Finland it's not, corporate account or not.



Think it depends on the work and their small print. Like if they tell you they do it up front it's okay. If they don't it's not.

My old place all internet traffic was looked at by England HQ. Some of the girls got bollockings for looking up Horsie stuff on the web and doing the odd online shop during work times. My Department manager got it for his Son sending emails with Nudie women to him through his work account.

The best one though was when he was looking for a new static caravan. He was googling ones for sale on sites around a particular area. He went to the bog so we googled the area and added "Dogging spots" to the search from his computer. He was none the wiser until about half an hour later the GM pulled him in and gave him a mouthful because HQ in England had been on the phone to him :lol: :lol:

and people wondered why I would never use my own private accounts on the system.

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