planetf1.com

Bullshit...
What an asinine statement. That whole paragraph reeks of an uninformed bias that has no purpose other than to continue your three month long rant against Alonso.

I am a big Massa fan and one of the VERY FEW who thought Ferrari's signing him to replace Rubens was great. However, even I cannot say that he has "shown time and time again that given a chance he can be very competitive". Since his accident there have been a few times when Massa has been competitive with Alonso, but all too many times when he has not... and not from any sabotaging by the team... but don't let facts get in your way.

Nothing would please me more than to see Massa continue his return to form in the year to come... it will help Ferrari greatly... Alonso too... and Massa as well.

Despite the rantings of many on this forum, it does not serve ANY purpose for a team to sabotage either of their drivers ... never has, never will. Ferrari are not idiots when it comes to this game... you don't win WCCs with only one driver. But you do however expect a teammate to support the one who established that they have the best chance for the team to win a WDC. There is no apologizing for that.

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Forza Ferrari
WCCs = 16
WDCs = 15

I like how the OP opens a thread asking if replacing kimi with alonso was worth it, and then proceeds to dismiss every post saying it wasnt.

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Räikkönen - Vettel - Rosberg - Bottas

Next year Ferrari will again fail Alonso by making car that is far from the top 2 (McLaren and Red Bull might have edge) and when 2014 comes mercedes might be the best car out there. So will Alonso retire from frustration when he see vettel to take 4th WDC because i don't see button or perez being able to stop that and webber is a joke in that car (almost like massa, but still they win WCC). I don't see Ferrari to produce a good car from start of the season compared to those top 2 teams, it might be a good car but nothing like those two can do. Even lotus might gain more momentum from this year than Ferrari.

So who will replace Alonso within few years? Vettel? Highly doupt it because he wants newey on his side. Ferrari is quite much out of options when looking a better driver than Alonso. Their own junior drivers aren't even good to drive second car and it's seems that only option is that Mercedes suck badly and Hamilton will replace Alonso. And i would say that would be worth of few titles.

EDIT: Ferrari needs a driver that is awesome in Q and that's Hamilton. And when you get your car to top2 in start even with that Ferrari you can win easily. Alonso and Massa aren't that good in Q compared to Hamilton that destroys faster cars in there. Alonso + Hamilton in Ferrari 2015

maybe a bit biased towards alonso but i am trying my best to be open minded. but some of the stuff fans have said:

iceman_fan90 wrote:

"This is often overlooked in discussions about Alonso/Massa/Ferrari. Alonso and Ferrari have been basically conducting psychological warfare against Massa"



iceman some of your other posts were insightful and good but the above quote

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Oh wow! How did I mess this thread??! I was away from the forum in the wrong time

So I'll just put in my honest opinion and not being influenced by any of the replies coz I won't read them (no disrespect, but 4 pages is a lot of reading)

Worth it or not?

A: In terms of money and direction of team

Ferrari was spoilt by the Schumi era that the whole team focuses mostly on one driver which makes life much easier. The combination of Kimi's character plus the massive change in the organisational structure in 2007 and 2008 has made the team a bit shaky, and if they didn't have a good car they would've been in big trouble, and it has shown in 2008 in the way the lost the championship and how their reigning WDC performed badly during the middle of the season (reasons don't matter the fact that he didn't perform well enough in qualifying)

Ferrari, and according to their team principal had a huge gap in terms of having a lead driver who pushes the team. None of Kimi or Massa are used to that, Massa is very emotional, and Kimi just doesn't do that.

Santader has been trying to put Alonso in Ferrari since the falling out he had with McLaren, even Ecclestone was very keen to see that happening "Ferrari is red, they are red, it makes sense". In Alonso, Ferrari didn't only get a good financial backing from a very solid bank, but they got a double WDC who fits their requirement from day one and he's a frikin damn good driver to say the least about his talent.

Worth it? Damn well it was.


B: In terms of results (warning: MAJOR if's in this scenario)

This is highly arguable because no one can know how things would've panned out, but the way I see it is that it could've gone two ways

1) If Ferrari continued focusing on Kimi the way they did after Massa's accident, we might have seen Kimi being crowned in 2010. Why? He simply wouldn't have made some of Alonso's mistakes, which most probably he has done because he was still new in the team and there are so many things to adjust to. 2011 was a washout for Redbull and 2012 would be very hard to tell because Alonso has drove fantastically, but so did Kimi after 2 years break, so imagine if he didn't take those two years off? but someone can argue that the Lotus is the fastest car in the grid and Romain is not a benchmark

2) If Ferrari have re-shifted the focus to Massa after his accident, we might not have seen him challenge for the WDC because no "XXX is faster than you" might have occured without Alonso, and surely Kimi will keep eating points from Massa, weakening further their WDC position

Worth it or not? in a hindsight, might be not worth it as Kimi might have won the 2010, but still this is very very arguable

Bottom line. Ferrari had a fantastic driver and one of the best in Kimi, and now they have a fantastic driver and one of the best in Alonso with extra $$$ in their pockets. It's a win win situation for them, and an endless misery for Kimi fans lol

But surely that the point of this forum - expressing our opinion and providing (hopefully ) reasoned argument to support our view?

Kimi (IMO) really didn't perform v well at Ferrari - they're just not the right team for him.

Ferrari/Alonso are a far better 'match' - but even so they haven't been 'outstanding' since Alonso replaced Kimi.

Personally, I blame Luca. He should have stuck to running the Ferrari 'group'. I've no doubt he's an excellent CEO for the Ferrari group, but he's useless as the boss of Ferrari F1.... Which is why they lost those that made the team so successful and haven't yet really recovered.

for all the post but the bold part i do not agree. kimi would have been similar to massa if he stayed with ferrari in 2010.

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interesting thread.

well the basics are that Raikkonen won the title at his first attempt with Ferrari, and 2013 will be Alonso's 4th attempt.

but Kimi lost interest after 2007 and it took 2 average seasons plus 2 years out of the sport entirely to kick him back into life. When Alonso has been working hard to win it each of his 3 seasons.

overall, has it been worth it? probably not.

so he matched fonzo in 2010 first 7 races i think? and the final 3 races of 2012 but what about the rest of the races from 2010 until 2012???[/quote]
Yes, which is exactly what I said. I never said anything about being able to compete with Alonso the rest of the time, because he hasn't. But he obviously can, on occasion.[/quote]

ok

but is that not a point? where as massa matched alonso on occasions kimi and massa were evenly matched throughout kimi's time with ferrari? so ferrari went for alonso.[/quote]
Yes. But as people have pointed out, the '07 and '08 Ferraris were better than the ones in the last three years. It's much easier to achieve better results in a better car, and in a better car there is less scope for being massively outperformed by your teammate. If Massa had a, lets say, average race in 2007 or 2008, he might finish 4th or 5th, whilst Räikkönen having a good race might finish 1st. Now, if Alonso has a good race, he can finish 2nd, and if Massa has a average race, he can finish 8th or 9th. The field is much tighter now. Which is why I think its inaccurate, and I'm very hesitant, to use Massa as a yardstick.[/quote]

but floppy what about 2009? prior to hungary massa was beating raikkonen comfortably and the car was uncompetitive???

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Kimi won '07 'cos McLaren were too busy fighting each other (literally) to make the most of having the best car that season....

Kimi just didn't fit the Ferrari 'job description', so it wasn't good for either of them to continue the association.

Incidentally, I also thought that the Ferrari red didn't suit Kimi's complexion - he looked far better in silver .

Sorry to jump into the conversation, but I don't think that is true! Kimi was the first to score points for Ferrari that year IIRC. Comfortably would be exaggerating. I'm not even sure if he was even ahead of him in terms of points, but I could be wrong

Massa was well ahead of Kimi in points before his accident.

Long-term, yes.

Taking the 2007 title out of the equation (it's been debated to death whether he 'lucked' into it or not so I'm not gonna go into it) - Kimi just didn't fill the void left by Schumacher in 2006. Ferrari regretted this.

Alonso fits the bill perfectly.

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1) That's a meaningless statement. Alonso' wouldn't have won in 2006 if Schumi's engine didn't blow up, Alonso wouldn't be fighting for the WDC if McLaren didn't screw up so many times this season. Hamilton wouldn't have become a WDC if crashgate didn't happen, and the list goes on.. Unless you have another point you want to prove?

2) In my opinion and Jean Todt's Kimi was exactly what Ferrari wanted, but changes in the top level management have made Kimi incompatible with the new Italian formula. I agree with you that it was good for both to end it, but maybe it could've happened in a better way. The way Kimi was fired have shown that it was either something personal happened (LdM?) or money talked. No team ever fired their WDC in that way without a valid reason. Even if he wasn't performing so good, still a team would not give up on their WDC who scored the most points in the second half of 2009 in a shit of a car (the way they're not giving up on Massa)

3) Completely agree, I've always hated Ferrari, and it was a tough pill to swallow when Kimi decided to move there. But a slight correction. Kimi looks better in Black

1) My point was that McLaren had the best car in '07, but the shennanigans in McLaren cost them the WDC. I wasn't trying to put Kimi down - but '07 was the weirdest season I've ever seen. The end result had nothing to do with luck/racing - just what was going on in McLaren. Edit - '06 was entirely different. Renault had the better car at the beginning of the season, Ferrari at the end of the season. Both had some bad luck, but at the end of the day Alonso won and I (as a Schumi fan), I don't have a problem with that.

2) I somehow doubt that Todt wanted Kimi to replace Schumi... Luca wanted this. But I agree that Luca was also so embarrassed at the way Kimi failed to dominate Massa that he demanded he be replaced by Alonso (Lewis wasn't available at the time, otherwise I suspect Luca would have wanted Lewis).

2) That's what Todt had ro say when they chose Kimi and not Alonso. They also tried to sign Kimi before McLaren. As for LdM getting embarrassed, I'm sure its just like so many other theories, so I don't subscribe to this one. If a team wanted a driver to dominate they would at least give him the suspension he asked for

I am sure he's lost loadsa sleep over it.

Actually he was hurt. That's why he decided to leave F1 altogether despite having contracts from McLaren AND Mercedes (before signing Schumi)

He still keeps saying it "could've ended in a better way". He also says that he drove his best season in 2009, which to me, proves that it doesn't have anything to do with performance or motivation. Even Kimi hinted that it was a money related transaction.

Yes he would have!

It would have finished Alonso 132, Schumacher 131.


1996 WDC Damon Hill - Williams.
1997 Damon Hill - Arrows.

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"I am a believer, but I start each Grand Prix with 195 liters of fuel behind me," he explains. "I don't rely entirely on God, I rely on Prost."

Taking this from earlier in this thread. Nobody seems to have read my post.
I just want to hear what you have to say about my theory

Kimi was more expensive, but he also was there for 1 WDC and 2 WDC by my count. Alonso has won nothing.

I know it is an unfair comparison and Kimi won them in a McLaren vs Ferrari fight that was relatively even for being best car, and Alonso hasn't had as nice a time as it, but the stats are what matters in the end aren't they?

I posted my thoughts on this earlier on this page...

Yes, I think Luca has been behind all the decisions over the last few years.

I'm suprised that Todt stayed for a year after Brawn and Schumi left. They were 'his' team.

of course you somehow doubt it... (where is facepalm when it's needed?)... instead of just remembering simple facts.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/56985




but this is going off topic of course...

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We are worse than animals, we hunger for the kill.
We put our faith in maniacs the triumph of the will,
We kill for money, wealth and lust, for this we should be damned.
We are disease upon the world, brotherhood of man.

Denorth - How have you managed to miss the point of my post entirely? Facepalm.

I said that I doubt Todt preferred Kimi over Schumi! And that Luca was behind this, as he was behind Alonso replacing Kimi.

Valid point. Indeed he was. Massa had 22 points to Räikkönens 10 prior to the Hungarian Grand Prix. But, as always, points don't always tell the whole story...
In reverse order:

Germany - Massa 8th to 3rd, Räikkönen 9th to DNF
Massa outqualifies his teammate and drives a brilliant race to finish 3rd. On lap 35, whilst running 6th closely behind Barrichello and narrowly ahead of Button, Räikkönen retires with radiator problems.

Britain - Massa 11th to 4th, Räikkönen 9th to 8th

Turkey - Massa 7th to 6th, Räikkönen 6th to 9th

Monaco - Massa 5th to 4th, Räikkönen 2nd to 3rd
Brilliant showing by Räikkönen in qualifying to start on the front row. Loses out to Barrichello on the run to St Devote, and Ferrari finish 3-4, best of the rest behind the Brawns.

Spain - Massa 4th to 6th, Räikkönen 16th to DNF
Räikkönen admits going out in Q1 is his own fault, believing his first qualifying lap is enough to get him through to Q2. In the race, he retires on lap 17 with hydraulic failure (running approximately 10th?), whilst Massa running in 4th has to conserve fuel heavily late in the race, losing positions to Vettel and Alonso.

Bahrain - Massa 8th to 14th, Räikkönen 10th to 6th
Räikkönen utilises his KERS well at the start, whilst Massa has to pit early for a change of front wing. Massa then has temperature problems with his KERS, and is advised to turn it off, completing a lacklustre afternoon for him.

China - Massa 13th to DNF, Räikkönen 8th to 10th
Massa suffers electrical problems on lap 20 (running 3rd at the time? perhaps having not pitted?).

Malaysia - Massa 16th to 9th, Räikkönen 7th to 14th
In an interview to Rede Globo, Massa said that he and the team thought the initial time posted was enough to qualify for the second session, and did not run to spare the engine. Räikkönen infamously questions why he is on extreme wet dry tyres on a dry track, and both finish out of the points.

Australia - Massa 6th to DNF, Räikkönen 7th to 15th
According to Formula 1.com, Massa retired on lap 45 with suspension issues and Räikkönen retired on lap 55 with a differential problem, but that's the one race I haven't watch, so I don't know where each of them were running.
So an extra DNF for Räikkönen, and 5-4 to him in qualifying, with one major strategy error for each. I feel they were even stevens, with Massa perhaps having one or two more impressive drives from his poorer qualifying positions. But overall, in the same way the first 7 races of 2010 don't necessarily give a clear picture across the whole of that season, I think 9 races is too little to be able to judge properly, although that's all we have to go on from 2009. What is worth noting is Räikkönens much better form post-Hungary.

To speculate however, for whats its worth, whilst the car in 2009 may have been uncompetitive, I feel it may have been easier to drive, at least from Massas perspective, than the early 2012 car, which is why Massa appears to have struggled more in comparison to his teammate in 2012. That and the perception of Massa being a confidence driver. Massa went into 2009 having missed out on the 2008 title by a whisker, so I imagine the belief and self confidence in his own abilities would have been high, and as a result, his performances would have benefited from this.

you didn't really say that
I agree that Luca wanted to remove Schumi and Todt didn't like it. I remember there were a lot of posts with info that Luca was afraid of growing strength of 'Jean Todt & Co'. Even sponsors were talking to Jean not Luca.

however, it was reported that Kimi was Todt's choice. Kind of - 'you want to remove Schumi but I still get the one I want more than you want him.'

EDIT: Todt actually stated in 2004 (I think) that he would choose Kimi over Juan-Pablo any day. just to say that Todt was keen on Kimi as a driver.

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We are worse than animals, we hunger for the kill.
We put our faith in maniacs the triumph of the will,
We kill for money, wealth and lust, for this we should be damned.
We are disease upon the world, brotherhood of man.

I only posted that Luca was behind all the decisions at Ferrari, that started with Kimi replacing Schumi.

Todt had nothing to do with it (as far as I know), although its been reported that Schumi said Kimi was a talent to watch.

Incidentally, you agree that Luca got rid of Schumi, but have a problem with him being behind Brawn leaving the same year and Todt the next? Not to mention Kimi being employed at the same time?

But I'm sure you're right. Todt left pretty much immediately 'cos he was thrilled that Kimi had been employed at his insistence.

are you going to 'create' something that I didn't say... hold on a sec. you already did.

all I said that Todt was happy to have Kimi. I didn't say he was happy to replace Schumi with Kimi. and by the way, I agreed the whole idea was Luca's. it's just backfired a bit

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We are worse than animals, we hunger for the kill.
We put our faith in maniacs the triumph of the will,
We kill for money, wealth and lust, for this we should be damned.
We are disease upon the world, brotherhood of man.

Some very interesting reading on this very topic here:
http://www.crapwagon.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-43431.html

I don't know how accurate it is but surely it's not too far from the truth.
I was fascinated to find out this (may have) happened behind the scenes and all we saw were the headlines. Every aspect of F1 is fascinating.

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"I am a believer, but I start each Grand Prix with 195 liters of fuel behind me," he explains. "I don't rely entirely on God, I rely on Prost."

Was worth it for Ferrari, with Santander's mulah....

This thread is a combination of face palms and WTFs.....

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KIMI: Yeah,Winning feels good.But I am not the type of guy to jump up and down and rub it in everyone's face.

Fernando didn't make Massa look average. Massa did that all by himself. After being called off in Germany, Massa completely lost the plot. From then until the latter half of 2012, he was hopeless, crashing, spinning, moving along, at times, quite sloppy and slow, and basically acting as a roadblock for his teammate.

The proof is of course the beginning of 2010 and the end of 2012 where Massa showed great prowess on track. That proves that Alonso wasn't making him look average - the truth can only be that Massa was substantially underperforming.

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I don't have access to the particular video now, but I believe the video in question is the one Kimi telling to Gino Rosato to f*** off. Gino is not a correspondent, he is an employee in Ferrari looking after the personnel security aspect. He is a good friend of Kimi and that chat is more of banter between them rather than insult to Ldm. And I am sure this incident hasn't affected in anyway on Kimi's departure, that is more to do with Santander.

Very very interesting read



This can be backed up by Kimi statement in 2009 when he was asked about his feelings of Schumi driving the next car (after Massa's incident and before Schumi announced that he can't). Kimi said "It almost happened before so .. [insert some kimi doesn't care comment here]"

I thoroughly enjoyed the piece. It is one of the reasons why I watch F1 and no other motorsport. The deep politics side

it was worth because of this



or this

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Seems to me Alonso is a better fit for Ferrari because Kimi was only really interested in racing and Alonso doesn't mind all the other stuff that comes with being a Ferrari driver so much. Plus Alonso brought Santander with him.

Both are great drivers, but Alonso seems a better fit for Ferrari. Just like Kimi was, arguably, a better fit for McLaren.

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I'm a racing driver. Always was, always will be.

With the benefit of hindsight maybe it was a mistake but at the time it was the right decision. True Kimi had won the title in 2007 but was outclassed by Massa the next two years and was fairly anonymous. Alonso has generally been consistently good and had two titles which could have easily been three, plus he worked magic with poor Renault's and brought Santander. He would have won the title for Ferrari in 2010 has they not screwed up tactics and there was not much more aside from not crashing at Spa that he could have done, last year he had a bad car and wasnt perfect but still was a podium regular, this year he has been stunningly good and virtually faultess. Kimi finnished behind him in the championship in what was not by any margin a far worse car and he could have won earlier. True he has been very good but Alonso has been fantastic and I feel it was and is still the right decision.