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replacing raikkonen with fernando worth it?
yes 41%  41%  [ 104 ]
no 59%  59%  [ 148 ]
Total votes : 252
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:21 pm 
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Denorth wrote:
Jomox wrote:
So far it's been far from worth it:

1 WDC
2 WCC
vs
0 WDC
0 WCC

Please don't bring up the excuses as the simple facts are Kimi was far more successful at Ferrari than Alonso has been (Alonso's time at Ferrari is seen as a failure until he's won a title with them, drivers or constructors)

The number one driver policy and making Massa not compete and yield any time he's ahead of Alosno certainly has not helped them either.


Corrected it for you ;) it is huge in terms of money :)


apparently they have equal quantity of wins for 3 seasons at Ferrari (52 GPs for Kimi and 58 GPs for Fernando) - each has 9 wins (it's not over yet for Fernando of course)


And nobody can possibly argue that Alonso's cars have been as competitive as Kimi's were. In fact, Kimi had a great car for two of his 3 years with the team.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 2:26 am 
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SnakeSVT2003 wrote:

And nobody can possibly argue that Alonso's cars have been as competitive as Kimi's were. In fact, Kimi had a great car for two of his 3 years with the team.


no matter how many times this is repeated, we don't really have any evidence of this. Besides, what is the basis of comparison? For example, Alonso himself said the F10 was the best car he ever drove during the winter tests. And another example, Kimi said the F2008 was far worse than the F2009. And yet the F2009 only came alive for him when they finally listened to him when Felipe went down for his accident. It tells you that the car wasn't made for him and Schummy was also interviewed about the 2008 issues that Kimi seemed to have suffered from and he willingly put up his hand to take the blame that they didn't listen to Kimi's feedback about suspension etc. So we can't judge the car's competitiveness like that.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 9:02 am 
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From the WDC point of view I think not much has changed, tbh. I think Alonso and Kimi are equally talented and I don't think Ferrari have improved their lot by replacing the latter with the former. They haven't gone backwards, either. Overall status quo.

From the WCC point of view I think they have definitely gone backwards. The focus for everything on Alonso (contentious, I know - just my opinion!) has IMO really knocked Massa's confidence for six and as a result they aren't getting the performances from him that they used to when he and Kimi had equal status. He went from being a consistent race winner to not even seeing the podium in 2011, which means that either Ferrari have produced a complete dog of a car from 2010 onwards and that Alonso is a driving god, or that Massa's performances have tailed off since he joined. It has cost Ferrari dearly in the WCC.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 12:52 am 
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Jinx wrote:
SnakeSVT2003 wrote:

And nobody can possibly argue that Alonso's cars have been as competitive as Kimi's were. In fact, Kimi had a great car for two of his 3 years with the team.


no matter how many times this is repeated, we don't really have any evidence of this. Besides, what is the basis of comparison? For example, Alonso himself said the F10 was the best car he ever drove during the winter tests. And another example, Kimi said the F2008 was far worse than the F2009. And yet the F2009 only came alive for him when they finally listened to him when Felipe went down for his accident. It tells you that the car wasn't made for him and Schummy was also interviewed about the 2008 issues that Kimi seemed to have suffered from and he willingly put up his hand to take the blame that they didn't listen to Kimi's feedback about suspension etc. So we can't judge the car's competitiveness like that.


There's plenty of evidence. The results speak for themselves. Massa got more wins than Kimi in 2008-2009 and was 1 point away from the Title in 2008 and nowhere in 2009, and he was beating Kimi both seasons. The car was one of the two best cars in 2008. The McLaren was only faster in the wet. Ferrari only had to beat McLaren in 2007/2008. That's undeniable.

Since Alonso's arrival, Ferrari has never had even the equal-best car over a whole season, and they've had to beat another team as well (Red Bull).

It's simple and there is plenty of evidence.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 6:59 am 
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If Alonso were not to win anymore WDC with ferrari, then it does not matter how well he has driven in 2010-12. 30 years down the line, history books will show Alonso not winning a championship with ferrari and hence the move to replace him was not worth it. Do you think Luca di monti sitting in his couch and thinking 'hey. this guy has driven a cracking 3 seasons in our dog of a car, it has been worthwhile'. I bet all he cares for is the number of championships they win, upper management is always about end results.

The answer to OP's question is really tough to answer because of the following reasons.

1) Massa's form is poor yardstick, he swings between being very good to downright abysmal.
2) Why Kimi's form suddenly went off after turkey 2008 and suddenly returned after hungary 2009? Was it his motivation or was there more to it (hopefully some bigwig in a drunken state will spill all in his autobiagraphy for or against the above theory)
3) How good really was that Ferrari. Taking the case of 2012, there were races (like India for example) where it had pretty serious race pace, but its qualifying (almost throught) and race pace in some other races were not so good.

There are also 2 other questions to be asked..

Even assuming Fernando has done a better job than Kimi..a couple of questions keep bothering me.

1) Why he has not been able to develop the car? One of the reasons why people cite fernando's greatness (over kimi) is his ability to develop a car. Immediately after he joined Mclaren in 2007, he claimed to have brought 3 tenths to Mclaren just after winter testing. So why he has not been able to develop the car in 3 seasons to win the title or improve it considering how bad he makes it to be.

2) Everybody was talking about how fernando outdrives the car at the start of the season and how bad the car was, I dont think the car got any worse, but fernando's form seemed to taper off towards the end of the season. Monza qualifying, Korea race (where massa had to slow down), Austin qualifying & race and brazil qualifying are arguably places where Fernando could have done better. I thought there is where he lost the championships rather than blame the incidents in spa or japan or adrian newey.

Just based on HARD RESULTS as the bottom line (as much as its a poor yardstick, history will only use hard results)

Kimi was WDC in 2007, twice WCC in 2007 and 2008
Massa was better than Kimi in 2008
Replacing Kimi with Fernando has not yielded the results ferrari really want.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:20 am 
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Raikkonen and Massa worked well together, IMO they'd have brought the team better results in the WCC.

Alonso cost them money, because he destroyed Massa (or else the team had to destroy him for Alonso and Santander), which cost them WCC positions.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:56 am 
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SnakeSVT2003 wrote:

Since Alonso's arrival, Ferrari has never had even the equal-best car over a whole season, and they've had to beat another team as well (Red Bull).

It's simple and there is plenty of evidence.


So Alonso coming to team have made Ferrari bad. They have to design car only to suite one man and that's Alonso. And in this thread there is also said that he is master when it comes to develop a car. He hasn't really delivered anything special. We did see how red bull did gain a lot within season but Ferrari didn't. They lost a lot and Alonso feedback to team seemed to them to lost focus. Drivers feedback is important but ofc drivers aren't designing the car, but feedback and alonso experience should show and season updates.

2008 and 2009 car wasn't the best car out there, McLaren did have a real edge over wet conditions and it helped a lot. And let's say that Massa being that close wasn't from his performance but Hamilton mistakes again. Also Ferrari made huge amount of mistakes that year, few rookie ones but mainly Hamilton mistakes because of his age and unexperience almost cost him title again.
And 2007 Alonso cost Hamiltons title change but sadly they both should have been DQ from WDC because of spygate.

Ferrari and their bosses made their worst decision to give Schumi a change to be part of Ferrari developement team. Supporting Massa and i think Schumi wanted to Kimi to fail. If Ferrari would have gone supporting fully Kimi (thing that Kimi didn't want to and that's amazing show of fairness inside the team) Ferrari would have won WDC again with kimi. 2009 car was bad design, mostly because of changes inside the team and again they supported more massa. After Massa incident we did see huge leap infront with Kimi with performance more like Alonso this year but even worst car under him.

Ferrari did make Kimi to look like a old dog that's waiting to die. That was all bs to get Alonso to Ferrari and trying to proof to fans that even while Kimi won WDC he isn't good enough. This year changed everything. And we did see same thing with Massa also, making him to look like total idiot and then when they needed to proof that Massa is good enough to continue in team his perfomance skyrocket and was even quicker than Alonso. Ferrari didn't want perez because he had even more money and power behind him than Alonso, he wouldn't be so easily controlled. And now Ferrari is in position that they can't really get any WCC because Alonso needs to be quicker than Massa, WDC is going because they can't design a good car and red bull can take WCC easily because even driver like webber in second car they are doing better as a team.

If you look by the numbers, financially alonso move was way better. But Wins, WDC, WCC all that counts in motorsport it wasn't that good deal. But Fans like him, that's a plus. I think inside the team things have changed to worst, teamspirit might not be the highest even while they are 100% supporting alonso. Pressure is coming up, Ferrari needs to soon make a huge change again inside the team.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:31 am 
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keenf1fan wrote:
...
1) Massa's form is poor yardstick, he swings between being very good to downright abysmal.
2) Why Kimi's form suddenly went off after turkey 2008 and suddenly returned after hungary 2009? Was it his motivation or was there more to it (hopefully some bigwig in a drunken state will spill all in his autobiagraphy for or against the above theory)
3) How good really was that Ferrari. Taking the case of 2012, there were races (like India for example) where it had pretty serious race pace, but its qualifying (almost throught) and race pace in some other races were not so good.

There are also 2 other questions to be asked..

Even assuming Fernando has done a better job than Kimi..a couple of questions keep bothering me.

1) Why he has not been able to develop the car? One of the reasons why people cite fernando's greatness (over kimi) is his ability to develop a car. Immediately after he joined Mclaren in 2007, he claimed to have brought 3 tenths to Mclaren just after winter testing. So why he has not been able to develop the car in 3 seasons to win the title or improve it considering how bad he makes it to be.

2) Everybody was talking about how fernando outdrives the car at the start of the season and how bad the car was, I dont think the car got any worse, but fernando's form seemed to taper off towards the end of the season. Monza qualifying, Korea race (where massa had to slow down), Austin qualifying & race and brazil qualifying are arguably places where Fernando could have done better. I thought there is where he lost the championships rather than blame the incidents in spa or japan or adrian newey.

...

regarding the first "2)" there are/were rumours (news articles online are still available) during the Monaco GP, (the race after Turkey) that Alonso had been signed to Ferrari. If true, knowing that your team were dumping you four or five races into the season after winning the WDC would be demoralising to say the least.

Regarding the first "3)" and second "2)" I suspect that Alonso isn't actually a great qualifier. Beating Massa initially can be argued due to a combination of Massa underperforming following the accident, and the demoralization from being Alonso's teammate and suffering the infamous 'tactics' employed by him, as alluded to by Witmarsh, Dennis, James Allen's December podcast, other podcasts with McLaren engineers etc etc. In 2008/2009 it was Raikkonen undeperforming in qualifying, this year after Massa was re-signed, and back to consistantly beating his teammate, the 'talk' was that it was Massa who was doing so well and regained his form and not that Alonso had lost his.
The unspoken implication of this is that if Massa is now performing at his actual/normal ability, then he is a better qualifyier than his teammates. But we can't say that publicly because the real truth is that Raikkonen is lazy and Alonso is the greatest of his generation.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:41 am 
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keenf1fan wrote:
Replacing Kimi with Fernando has not yielded the results ferrari really want.
Unless you have a time machine and use it to swap seats between Kimi and Fernando for the last 3 seasons... it's hard to say where would Ferrari have ended in the standings. More wins? More points? It's mere speculation.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:58 am 
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chican wrote:
keenf1fan wrote:
Replacing Kimi with Fernando has not yielded the results ferrari really want.
Unless you have a time machine and use it to swap seats between Kimi and Fernando for the last 3 seasons... it's hard to say where would Ferrari have ended in the standings. More wins? More points? It's mere speculation.


I am not speculating anything, Based on pure results, Alonso of the first 3 years at ferrari has achieved less than Kimi at his first 3 years at ferrari. As much as the maranello squad will be happy with all the money santander money brought in, Ferrari would feel they have not had the same success with Nando as they had with kimi, irrespective the merits/demerits of the car.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:27 pm 
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keenf1fan wrote:
chican wrote:
keenf1fan wrote:
Replacing Kimi with Fernando has not yielded the results ferrari really want.
Unless you have a time machine and use it to swap seats between Kimi and Fernando for the last 3 seasons... it's hard to say where would Ferrari have ended in the standings. More wins? More points? It's mere speculation.


I am not speculating anything, Based on pure results, Alonso of the first 3 years at ferrari has achieved less than Kimi at his first 3 years at ferrari. As much as the maranello squad will be happy with all the money santander money brought in, Ferrari would feel they have not had the same success with Nando as they had with kimi, irrespective the merits/demerits of the car.
Your whole reply is a big flaw :D


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:50 pm 
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SnakeSVT2003 wrote:
Jinx wrote:
SnakeSVT2003 wrote:

And nobody can possibly argue that Alonso's cars have been as competitive as Kimi's were. In fact, Kimi had a great car for two of his 3 years with the team.


no matter how many times this is repeated, we don't really have any evidence of this. Besides, what is the basis of comparison? For example, Alonso himself said the F10 was the best car he ever drove during the winter tests. And another example, Kimi said the F2008 was far worse than the F2009. And yet the F2009 only came alive for him when they finally listened to him when Felipe went down for his accident. It tells you that the car wasn't made for him and Schummy was also interviewed about the 2008 issues that Kimi seemed to have suffered from and he willingly put up his hand to take the blame that they didn't listen to Kimi's feedback about suspension etc. So we can't judge the car's competitiveness like that.


There's plenty of evidence. The results speak for themselves. Massa got more wins than Kimi in 2008-2009 and was 1 point away from the Title in 2008 and nowhere in 2009, and he was beating Kimi both seasons. The car was one of the two best cars in 2008. The McLaren was only faster in the wet. Ferrari only had to beat McLaren in 2007/2008. That's undeniable.

Since Alonso's arrival, Ferrari has never had even the equal-best car over a whole season, and they've had to beat another team as well (Red Bull).

It's simple and there is plenty of evidence.


I think there have been many posts above that have replied in ways that I would have replied but since they already did it, I shall not rinse and repeat ;)

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:18 pm 
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SnakeSVT2003 wrote:
Jinx wrote:
SnakeSVT2003 wrote:

And nobody can possibly argue that Alonso's cars have been as competitive as Kimi's were. In fact, Kimi had a great car for two of his 3 years with the team.


no matter how many times this is repeated, we don't really have any evidence of this. Besides, what is the basis of comparison? For example, Alonso himself said the F10 was the best car he ever drove during the winter tests. And another example, Kimi said the F2008 was far worse than the F2009. And yet the F2009 only came alive for him when they finally listened to him when Felipe went down for his accident. It tells you that the car wasn't made for him and Schummy was also interviewed about the 2008 issues that Kimi seemed to have suffered from and he willingly put up his hand to take the blame that they didn't listen to Kimi's feedback about suspension etc. So we can't judge the car's competitiveness like that.


There's plenty of evidence. The results speak for themselves. Massa got more wins than Kimi in 2008-2009 and was 1 point away from the Title in 2008 and nowhere in 2009, and he was beating Kimi both seasons. The car was one of the two best cars in 2008. The McLaren was only faster in the wet. Ferrari only had to beat McLaren in 2007/2008. That's undeniable.

Since Alonso's arrival, Ferrari has never had even the equal-best car over a whole season, and they've had to beat another team as well (Red Bull).

It's simple and there is plenty of evidence.


its quite clear that ferrari had a fast car or they would have not won in 07 and be close in 08. so kimi had 2 seasons were his only real team rival was mclaren. but with alonso in 2010 he had mclaren and redbull. 2011 red bull were too quick and this season again same as 2010 with the added bonus of a quick lotus in the hands of kimi (ironically).

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 4:49 pm 
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Voted "YES". It was worth it. For a number of reasons, most of which have already been spoken in this thread regarding how Alonso has performed relative to competition and level of Ferrari competitiveness, "fit" with the team, etc.

keenf1fan wrote:
If Alonso were not to win anymore WDC with ferrari, then it does not matter how well he has driven in 2010-12. 30 years down the line, history books will show Alonso not winning a championship with ferrari and hence the move to replace him was not worth it. Do you think Luca di monti sitting in his couch and thinking 'hey. this guy has driven a cracking 3 seasons in our dog of a car, it has been worthwhile'. I bet all he cares for is the number of championships they win, upper management is always about end results.


Yes, upper management is about end results... but upper management also has plenty of analysts and foresight to take into account what's going on in detail rather than just simply looking at championships and race wins. And those championships clearly emerged from a "whole package" that was better than the one Ferrari currently has. However, via analyses and presentations given to management, I don't believe Fernando will be cited as a weak link in the team given his results. Which is also probably why many here on this forum aren't likely to be reporting to upper management in their professional careers given the reasons they come up with...

I think we can all argue for days about which team of Kimi/Massa and Alonso/Massa and how each have been handled has been better for Ferrari. I think that's a very, very valid argument. But one cannot discount the level of competition Ferrari have faced from 2010-2012 in comparison to 2007-2008. 2009 is a different story given the car. Even ignoring any possible outcome from the head injury, I agree that Massa is a poor benchmark at this point. It's very difficult to explain 2011, but 2012 you can see he simply wasn't comfortable with the car for a large portion of the season, and it showed. I also believe that if Kimi and Massa had a similarly difficult car to drive (maybe one with too much front end bite and severe oversteer) Kimi would have put a trouncing on Massa, too. It is always up to the driver to adapt to those changes, but that's always easier said than done, even at the highest end of motorsport. We even saw Vettel struggling at the beginning of this year in comparison to Webber. These things happen.

keenf1fan wrote:
1) Why he has not been able to develop the car? One of the reasons why people cite fernando's greatness (over kimi) is his ability to develop a car. Immediately after he joined Mclaren in 2007, he claimed to have brought 3 tenths to Mclaren just after winter testing. So why he has not been able to develop the car in 3 seasons to win the title or improve it considering how bad he makes it to be.


I think it's clear at this point that the myth of drivers developing cars is mostly moot. I still feel that what they ask for from the car (more aggressive steering, more stable rear, etc.) goes into what the engineers ultimately try and work into the package. And indirectly, it will alter development. But it's also up to the designers and engineers to make that happen. If the team of engineers can't translate what the drivers want and produce components that do that, then it's not necessarily the driver's fault but the effectiveness of the designers.

keenf1fan wrote:
2) Everybody was talking about how fernando outdrives the car at the start of the season and how bad the car was, I dont think the car got any worse, but fernando's form seemed to taper off towards the end of the season. Monza qualifying, Korea race (where massa had to slow down), Austin qualifying & race and brazil qualifying are arguably places where Fernando could have done better. I thought there is where he lost the championships rather than blame the incidents in spa or japan or adrian newey.


It is unfortunate to see Fernando trail off some, both in comparison to the Red Bulls and his teammate (which is arguably worse when judging what happened), but given Fernando's excellent start and mid-season, it was bound to happen. Is it really any different than Sebastien in 2012 starting slow, or Kimi in 2007 having a poor start (minus Australia). The championship is won over an entire season. It just so happened Alonso had his worst driving in the twilight of the season when the pressure was highest. I think if it happens one more time in the coming years we may be able to say he can't handle the pressure. But that's something to be fully judged later on.

With that said, Alonso turned it back on at the end of 2005 in comparison to the McLarens. Though, the title fight wasn't as intense and not as much pressure from the competition (Kimi).

keenf1fan wrote:
Just based on HARD RESULTS as the bottom line (as much as its a poor yardstick, history will only use hard results)


Four words. Sterling Moss. Gilles Villeneuve.

How's that for hard results and history? ;)

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:46 pm 
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WJF1 wrote:
SnakeSVT2003 wrote:

Since Alonso's arrival, Ferrari has never had even the equal-best car over a whole season, and they've had to beat another team as well (Red Bull).

It's simple and there is plenty of evidence.


So Alonso coming to team have made Ferrari bad. They have to design car only to suite one man and that's Alonso. And in this thread there is also said that he is master when it comes to develop a car. He hasn't really delivered anything special. We did see how red bull did gain a lot within season but Ferrari didn't. They lost a lot and Alonso feedback to team seemed to them to lost focus. Drivers feedback is important but ofc drivers aren't designing the car, but feedback and alonso experience should show and season updates.

2008 and 2009 car wasn't the best car out there, McLaren did have a real edge over wet conditions and it helped a lot. And let's say that Massa being that close wasn't from his performance but Hamilton mistakes again. Also Ferrari made huge amount of mistakes that year, few rookie ones but mainly Hamilton mistakes because of his age and unexperience almost cost him title again.
And 2007 Alonso cost Hamiltons title change but sadly they both should have been DQ from WDC because of spygate.

Ferrari and their bosses made their worst decision to give Schumi a change to be part of Ferrari developement team. Supporting Massa and i think Schumi wanted to Kimi to fail. If Ferrari would have gone supporting fully Kimi (thing that Kimi didn't want to and that's amazing show of fairness inside the team) Ferrari would have won WDC again with kimi. 2009 car was bad design, mostly because of changes inside the team and again they supported more massa. After Massa incident we did see huge leap infront with Kimi with performance more like Alonso this year but even worst car under him.

Ferrari did make Kimi to look like a old dog that's waiting to die. That was all bs to get Alonso to Ferrari and trying to proof to fans that even while Kimi won WDC he isn't good enough. This year changed everything. And we did see same thing with Massa also, making him to look like total idiot and then when they needed to proof that Massa is good enough to continue in team his perfomance skyrocket and was even quicker than Alonso. Ferrari didn't want perez because he had even more money and power behind him than Alonso, he wouldn't be so easily controlled. And now Ferrari is in position that they can't really get any WCC because Alonso needs to be quicker than Massa, WDC is going because they can't design a good car and red bull can take WCC easily because even driver like webber in second car they are doing better as a team.

If you look by the numbers, financially alonso move was way better. But Wins, WDC, WCC all that counts in motorsport it wasn't that good deal. But Fans like him, that's a plus. I think inside the team things have changed to worst, teamspirit might not be the highest even while they are 100% supporting alonso. Pressure is coming up, Ferrari needs to soon make a huge change again inside the team.


Massa beat Raikkonen fair and square, he scored more points than Raikkonen during their time as teammates, took 12 poles to Raikkonen's 5, won 9 races to Raikkonen's 8. Massa is a quality driver and he showed that these last few races.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:31 pm 
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Eva09 wrote:
Massa beat Raikkonen fair and square, he scored more points than Raikkonen during their time as teammates, took 12 poles to Raikkonen's 5, won 9 races to Raikkonen's 8. Massa is a quality driver and he showed that these last few races.

But the same can not be said of Alonso and Massa.
Note that I am not saying that Massa would have beaten Aonso if they did have equal treatment.

In 2010 Massa and Alonso exactly the same average finishing position (5.42) and Massa had a better average quali, after the first 7 races of the season, which included Massa getting mugged by Alonso in the Chinese pit entry.
Three poor races for Massa which were largely due to chance (contact in Canada. Safety car in Europe. Contact and puncture in Britain) preceded being told to move over and give up a win in Germany. From that moment until 3/4 of 2012 he was a shadow of his former self.
A new contract this year, and Massa is better. But he still gives Alonso a position (and what would have been his first podium for over a year) in Italy, is not allowed to race him in Korea, gives him a position and podium again in America, and a position in Brazil. And out qualifies him in the last three races.

Again, I want to stress that I'm not saying that Alonso would not have beaten Massa, I think that Massa is underrated as a qualifier, Alonso is obviously the better racer.
But there are lots of rumours of Alonso's "competitiveness" online "...we all know how ruthless he his, and there's things we know in the paddock that perhaps we can't talk about..." (James Allen's podcast, featuring a group discussion with Sam Michael, Oliver Weingarten, Mark Hughes & Darren Heath, at 26:30 in). The implications are that the gear box penalty in America was Alonso's idea, and many other things that we don't know about. The more I think about him the more I can not believe that he didn't know about Singapore 2008, and I suspect it may even have been his Idea. He certainly has a strong negative effect on the performance of his teammates, which if he doesn't win a title himself, ultimately costs the team in lost points.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:34 pm 
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Honda Quick wrote:
Voted "YES". It was worth it. For a number of reasons, most of which have already been spoken in this thread regarding how Alonso has performed relative to competition and level of Ferrari competitiveness, "fit" with the team, etc.


First of all, a great reply. :thumbup: I enjoyed reading your reply, it was to the point, sensible and without insults, which is all a rarity in this forum.

keenf1fan wrote:
If Alonso were not to win anymore WDC with ferrari, then it does not matter how well he has driven in 2010-12. 30 years down the line, history books will show Alonso not winning a championship with ferrari and hence the move to replace him was not worth it. Do you think Luca di monti sitting in his couch and thinking 'hey. this guy has driven a cracking 3 seasons in our dog of a car, it has been worthwhile'. I bet all he cares for is the number of championships they win, upper management is always about end results.


Quote:
Yes, upper management is about end results... but upper management also has plenty of analysts and foresight to take into account what's going on in detail rather than just simply looking at championships and race wins. And those championships clearly emerged from a "whole package" that was better than the one Ferrari currently has. However, via analyses and presentations given to management, I don't believe Fernando will be cited as a weak link in the team given his results. Which is also probably why many here on this forum aren't likely to be reporting to upper management in their professional careers given the reasons they come up with...


I dont think he will be cited as a weak link. but has he (in conjunction with ferrari) achieved the results they set out for in 2010?

Quote:
I think we can all argue for days about which team of Kimi/Massa and Alonso/Massa and how each have been handled has been better for Ferrari. I think that's a very, very valid argument. But one cannot discount the level of competition Ferrari have faced from 2010-2012 in comparison to 2007-2008. 2009 is a different story given the car. Even ignoring any possible outcome from the head injury, I agree that Massa is a poor benchmark at this point. It's very difficult to explain 2011, but 2012 you can see he simply wasn't comfortable with the car for a large portion of the season, and it showed. I also believe that if Kimi and Massa had a similarly difficult car to drive (maybe one with too much front end bite and severe oversteer) Kimi would have put a trouncing on Massa, too. It is always up to the driver to adapt to those changes, but that's always easier said than done, even at the highest end of motorsport. We even saw Vettel struggling at the beginning of this year in comparison to Webber. These things happen.


Agree

keenf1fan wrote:
1) Why he has not been able to develop the car? One of the reasons why people cite fernando's greatness (over kimi) is his ability to develop a car. Immediately after he joined Mclaren in 2007, he claimed to have brought 3 tenths to Mclaren just after winter testing. So why he has not been able to develop the car in 3 seasons to win the title or improve it considering how bad he makes it to be.


Quote:
I think it's clear at this point that the myth of drivers developing cars is mostly moot. I still feel that what they ask for from the car (more aggressive steering, more stable rear, etc.) goes into what the engineers ultimately try and work into the package. And indirectly, it will alter development. But it's also up to the designers and engineers to make that happen. If the team of engineers can't translate what the drivers want and produce components that do that, then it's not necessarily the driver's fault but the effectiveness of the designers.


Agree, I hope this and his stint with renault makes sure the talk of drivers being better car developers goes away. Better feedback,may be. Better developers, hogwash.

keenf1fan wrote:
2) Everybody was talking about how fernando outdrives the car at the start of the season and how bad the car was, I dont think the car got any worse, but fernando's form seemed to taper off towards the end of the season. Monza qualifying, Korea race (where massa had to slow down), Austin qualifying & race and brazil qualifying are arguably places where Fernando could have done better. I thought there is where he lost the championships rather than blame the incidents in spa or japan or adrian newey.


Quote:
It is unfortunate to see Fernando trail off some, both in comparison to the Red Bulls and his teammate (which is arguably worse when judging what happened), but given Fernando's excellent start and mid-season, it was bound to happen. Is it really any different than Sebastien in 2012 starting slow, or Kimi in 2007 having a poor start (minus Australia). The championship is won over an entire season. It just so happened Alonso had his worst driving in the twilight of the season when the pressure was highest. I think if it happens one more time in the coming years we may be able to say he can't handle the pressure. But that's something to be fully judged later on.

With that said, Alonso turned it back on at the end of 2005 in comparison to the McLarens. Though, the title fight wasn't as intense and not as much pressure from the competition (Kimi).


I dont think he quite turned it on at the end of 2005. He had a 32 point lead at the end of race 6 (spain) and then he rode it very well. In 2005 and 2006, he was able to maintain the performances in the second half whereas in 2010 and 12, he visibly dropped off. I feel once he gets a lead in the championships, he looks to defend it rather than drive all out though he always says otherwise.

keenf1fan wrote:
Just based on HARD RESULTS as the bottom line (as much as its a poor yardstick, history will only use hard results)


Four words. Sterling Moss. Gilles Villeneuve. [/quote]

whilst I partially agree, history will talk about his championships at renault, not 'so much' his driving at ferrari.

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How's that for hard results and history? ;)


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:06 pm 
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WJF1 wrote:
SnakeSVT2003 wrote:

Since Alonso's arrival, Ferrari has never had even the equal-best car over a whole season, and they've had to beat another team as well (Red Bull).

It's simple and there is plenty of evidence.


So Alonso coming to team have made Ferrari bad. They have to design car only to suite one man and that's Alonso. And in this thread there is also said that he is master when it comes to develop a car. He hasn't really delivered anything special. We did see how red bull did gain a lot within season but Ferrari didn't. They lost a lot and Alonso feedback to team seemed to them to lost focus. Drivers feedback is important but ofc drivers aren't designing the car, but feedback and alonso experience should show and season updates.

2008 and 2009 car wasn't the best car out there, McLaren did have a real edge over wet conditions and it helped a lot. And let's say that Massa being that close wasn't from his performance but Hamilton mistakes again. Also Ferrari made huge amount of mistakes that year, few rookie ones but mainly Hamilton mistakes because of his age and unexperience almost cost him title again.
And 2007 Alonso cost Hamiltons title change but sadly they both should have been DQ from WDC because of spygate.

Ferrari and their bosses made their worst decision to give Schumi a change to be part of Ferrari developement team. Supporting Massa and i think Schumi wanted to Kimi to fail. If Ferrari would have gone supporting fully Kimi (thing that Kimi didn't want to and that's amazing show of fairness inside the team) Ferrari would have won WDC again with kimi. 2009 car was bad design, mostly because of changes inside the team and again they supported more massa. After Massa incident we did see huge leap infront with Kimi with performance more like Alonso this year but even worst car under him.

Ferrari did make Kimi to look like a old dog that's waiting to die. That was all bs to get Alonso to Ferrari and trying to proof to fans that even while Kimi won WDC he isn't good enough. This year changed everything. And we did see same thing with Massa also, making him to look like total idiot and then when they needed to proof that Massa is good enough to continue in team his perfomance skyrocket and was even quicker than Alonso. Ferrari didn't want perez because he had even more money and power behind him than Alonso, he wouldn't be so easily controlled. And now Ferrari is in position that they can't really get any WCC because Alonso needs to be quicker than Massa, WDC is going because they can't design a good car and red bull can take WCC easily because even driver like webber in second car they are doing better as a team.

If you look by the numbers, financially alonso move was way better. But Wins, WDC, WCC all that counts in motorsport it wasn't that good deal. But Fans like him, that's a plus. I think inside the team things have changed to worst, teamspirit might not be the highest even while they are 100% supporting alonso. Pressure is coming up, Ferrari needs to soon make a huge change again inside the team.


I agree with some things (namely that Ferrari got worse between 2008 and 2009. They don't appear to have recovered which means that Kimi not only had betters cars but a better team ;) ), but most of this post is nothing but gut feelings. You have zero evidence to support most of what you just wrote, and yet you still took the time to write it. :?

Jinx wrote:
I think there have been many posts above that have replied in ways that I would have replied but since they already did it, I shall not rinse and repeat ;)


You're telling me you can't do better than that? Then you have to admit defeat! :twisted: :-P


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:08 pm 
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diablof1 wrote:
SnakeSVT2003 wrote:
Jinx wrote:
SnakeSVT2003 wrote:

And nobody can possibly argue that Alonso's cars have been as competitive as Kimi's were. In fact, Kimi had a great car for two of his 3 years with the team.


no matter how many times this is repeated, we don't really have any evidence of this. Besides, what is the basis of comparison? For example, Alonso himself said the F10 was the best car he ever drove during the winter tests. And another example, Kimi said the F2008 was far worse than the F2009. And yet the F2009 only came alive for him when they finally listened to him when Felipe went down for his accident. It tells you that the car wasn't made for him and Schummy was also interviewed about the 2008 issues that Kimi seemed to have suffered from and he willingly put up his hand to take the blame that they didn't listen to Kimi's feedback about suspension etc. So we can't judge the car's competitiveness like that.


There's plenty of evidence. The results speak for themselves. Massa got more wins than Kimi in 2008-2009 and was 1 point away from the Title in 2008 and nowhere in 2009, and he was beating Kimi both seasons. The car was one of the two best cars in 2008. The McLaren was only faster in the wet. Ferrari only had to beat McLaren in 2007/2008. That's undeniable.

Since Alonso's arrival, Ferrari has never had even the equal-best car over a whole season, and they've had to beat another team as well (Red Bull).

It's simple and there is plenty of evidence.


its quite clear that ferrari had a fast car or they would have not won in 07 and be close in 08. so kimi had 2 seasons were his only real team rival was mclaren. but with alonso in 2010 he had mclaren and redbull. 2011 red bull were too quick and this season again same as 2010 with the added bonus of a quick lotus in the hands of kimi (ironically).


Exactly. :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 5:03 am 
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Going through this thread and loads of biased one way or another opinions, i have to agree to one thing, Hiring Alonso did cost ferarri in terms of Massa's points.. I wouldnt say he would have beaten Alonso, but he is a better driver than what numbers show in last few seasons... It was mismanagement by ferarri to focus so much on Alonso that massa looses his confidence completely.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:19 am 
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Usman,

Putting it out that there are loads of biased opinions, you then go on to state a biased opinion yourself :D, that Massa's drop off in form is attributable to fernando and ferrari.

That in itself is a subject of discussion in the larger question of 'replacing raikkonen with fernando worth it?'

I wish luca di monti was a forum member so he can give the verdict in the above discussion


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:23 am 
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Quoting Domenicali from end of 2009.

Stefano Domenicali: I consider Räikkönen, in absolute terms, at the same level of Fernando, Felipe, Lewis. So, why this change? Because I’m sure our team, Ferrari, needs a man more similar to Schumi, as for the relationship with the team. Kimi is very fast, very competitive but also very closed, introvert. It’s not a limit and not a guilt: it’s his temper. With a winning car, he was and he is perfect. With a car to fix and a team to direct, I believe Alonso is superior. This I explained to Räikkönen: he wasn’t happy but he understood.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:43 am 
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keenf1fan wrote:
Quoting Domenicali from end of 2009.

Stefano Domenicali: I consider Räikkönen, in absolute terms, at the same level of Fernando, Felipe, Lewis. So, why this change? Because I’m sure our team, Ferrari, needs a man more similar to Schumi, as for the relationship with the team. Kimi is very fast, very competitive but also very closed, introvert. It’s not a limit and not a guilt: it’s his temper. With a winning car, he was and he is perfect. With a car to fix and a team to direct, I believe Alonso is superior. This I explained to Räikkönen: he wasn’t happy but he understood.

Well the car has been fixed for the worse and the team directed in the wrong direction since then :-P

But seriously, this sounds like a reasonable motivation although I'm not sure it has much to do with this thread - i.e. did it pay off?

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:07 am 
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SnakeSVT2003 wrote:
Denorth wrote:
Jomox wrote:
So far it's been far from worth it:

1 WDC
2 WCC
vs
0 WDC
0 WCC

Please don't bring up the excuses as the simple facts are Kimi was far more successful at Ferrari than Alonso has been (Alonso's time at Ferrari is seen as a failure until he's won a title with them, drivers or constructors)

The number one driver policy and making Massa not compete and yield any time he's ahead of Alosno certainly has not helped them either.


Corrected it for you ;) it is huge in terms of money :)


apparently they have equal quantity of wins for 3 seasons at Ferrari (52 GPs for Kimi and 58 GPs for Fernando) - each has 9 wins (it's not over yet for Fernando of course)


And nobody can possibly argue that Alonso's cars have been as competitive as Kimi's were. In fact, Kimi had a great car for two of his 3 years with the team.


Yeah, and according to Ferrari Alonso would have been better on developing the car. (search for quotes and you'll find em')
The car is a no-argument.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:14 am 
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[quote="bbobeckyj" The implications are that the gear box penalty in America was Alonso's idea[/quote]

I've read that it was Briatore's idea, which seems typical enough given his track record .Don't think Alonso is capable of coming up with that idea to be honest. I've seen my share of things, but never anticipated that move from Ferrari.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:21 am 
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Stereotyping a lot here, but I think that it was a huge culture clash, Raikkonen was/is too quiet and reserved for the team. They need a more flamboyant person who makes a lot of fuss. Looking back to the Bahrain winners room, the unfit and overweight Raikkonen was happily joking and talking with Vettel, while the best driver if his generation was so physically drained he hardly moved, and was so hot that he poured ice cold water over his head.
Alonso will never miss an opportunity to let the world know how hard he works, Raikkonen couldn't care less about making a show of things.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:27 am 
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"I am not speculating facts" they say! Assuming that things would be any different with Raikkonen driving the prancing horse is a big "what if", and History is not about "what ifs".

Facts are:
*Alonso speaks Italian.
*Alonso shows bigger commitment outside the car.
*Alonso looks like a leader.
*Alonso comes from a latin country.

This has nothing to do with Kimi's abitily to compete or win races, it's something beyond that.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:35 am 
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Ferrari has become a joke. Its messed up in almost every department and i like kimi not being there.
Lets see how much low they will stoop to turn things around.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:59 am 
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bbobeckyj wrote:
Stereotyping a lot here, but I think that it was a huge culture clash, Raikkonen was/is too quiet and reserved for the team. They need a more flamboyant person who makes a lot of fuss. Looking back to the Bahrain winners room, the unfit and overweight Raikkonen was happily joking and talking with Vettel, while the best driver if his generation was so physically drained he hardly moved, and was so hot that he poured ice cold water over his head.
Alonso will never miss an opportunity to let the world know how hard he works, Raikkonen couldn't care less about making a show of things.


*Sarcasm On*
There's something that rallies up the Tifosi about having a latin person win in a Ferrari. It is like a nationalistic sentiment. I mean even Michael Schumacher with all those wins was only the token "Italian" for as long as he won for Ferrari and kept Jean Todt happy.

Same thing with Asians - imagine if a Narain Karthikeyan, Kobayashi or Karun Chandhok won for Ferrari, somehow wouldn't look apt now, would it? The same thing goes for nordic Raikkonnen (what's the matter - can't digest the comparison of Indians with Finns in the same sentence? :twisted: ).

It's all about being an Italian Stallion or Spanish Fly in a Ferrari :uhoh:

*Sarcasm Off*


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:47 am 
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If we look at the statistics than I'm inclined to say no.

Kimi won allbeit with some luck WDC in his first year with the Scuderia. 2008 he seemed demotivated or the car didn't really suit him, anyway it was not a good year for him sice Massa almost became WDC with same car. 2009 Ferrari had no hope of winning a title. Yet Kimi still could win Spa.

Alonso almost became WDC in his first year too and it could have happened this season too but every time Vettel and Red Bull were able to sneak it away. 2011 Alonso had no chance Ferrari was too uncompetitive.

I think overall Alonso has extracted more of the Ferrari over the same period taking the competitiveness of the car into account. But so far it didn't pay off for neither party. I think Alonso always gave it all so it's not his fault I think. Red Bull has just been too strong last 3 seasons.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:43 am 
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no


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:23 am 
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I think that one thing has been forgotten...

During Alonsos first two years with Ferrari, he didn't have Kimi to compete against, in let's say McLaren or Renault/Lotus.
So my view on the matter is, if Kimi would have stayed in F1, Alonso would have had it at least a bit more difficult during his chase to win the WDC 2010.

I hope I made my statements somewhat understandeble :-)


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:28 am 
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Inferno_e_Paradiso wrote:
I think that one thing has been forgotten...

During Alonsos first two years with Ferrari, he didn't have Kimi to compete against, in let's say McLaren or Renault/Lotus.
So my view on the matter is, if Kimi would have stayed in F1, Alonso would have had it at least a bit more difficult during his chase to win the WDC 2010.

I hope I made my statements somewhat understandeble :-)


It would go something like this.

Ferrari: "Kimi Fernando is faster than you, you know what to do"
Kimi: "F*ck Off"


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:56 am 
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Jomox wrote:
Inferno_e_Paradiso wrote:
I think that one thing has been forgotten...

During Alonsos first two years with Ferrari, he didn't have Kimi to compete against, in let's say McLaren or Renault/Lotus.
So my view on the matter is, if Kimi would have stayed in F1, Alonso would have had it at least a bit more difficult during his chase to win the WDC 2010.

I hope I made my statements somewhat understandeble :-)


It would go something like this.

Ferrari: "Kimi Fernando is faster than you, you know what to do"
Kimi: "F*ck Off"


more like

Ferrari: "Kimi Fernando is faster than you, you know what to do"
Kimi: "Leave me alone, I know what I'm doing"

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:42 pm 
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finally, we are in a light-hearted discussion :)

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:21 pm 
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I don't think so, not by a long shot!

As pointed out earlier in the thread, Raikkonen gave Ferrari 1 drivers title (against the superior McLaren, in Alonso's words) and 1 constructors title in 2008. So far, after three years, Alonso has nothing to show on that department. That said, Alonso has been a more solid front runner at Ferrari throughout these three years than Raikkonen was during his tenure; and the only time that the finn looked like a force to be reckoned was 2007, up to Monaco (sort of) 2008, and (coincidentially?) after Massa's crash in 2009. Quite irregular in there!

One might try to argue at this point that although the results have not arrived for Ferrari, they have been *there* two times already. In 2010 dropping it for underestimating their competitors (and deciding to race ONLY Webber), and in this year Alonso's chop at Suzuka against Raikkonen was, in the end, proven to be VERY costly. One might say that yes, the results are not there, but that Ferrari is now a stronger team than it ever was when Raikkonen was onboard.

HOWEVER, Alonso has brought another thing to Ferrari: Continuous controversy! Massa is not allowed to race him, and was even asked to move over halfway through the season in 2010, when the distance between them was very small. With Raikkonen, we have a Ferrari giving an equal status to both its drivers. I doubt anyone can argue that this has been the case under Alonso's regime. Furthermore, we have seen Ferrari making a mockery of racing fans all over the world: first, the gearbox on Massa's car, and then Ferrari protesting a green flag overtake in Brazil... Simply embarrassing, and probably more costly than the three points that separated them in the end.

One can say that Alonso brings more money to the team. In fact, Kimi was paid out by Alonso's sponsor to finish his contract a year early. Given how strong the 2010 contender was (finished 1-2 the first race, and every race Ferrari won, except for Singapore, they had both cars there, more often than not 1-2), and the milliard of mistakes Alonso did earlier that year (until Germany, and then Spa), one could think that Kimi would have given them *that* title (I don't think that Raikkonen would have done as good as Alonso did this 2012, though).

At the end of the day, Ferrari has Alonso for a few more years, which means they are betting on Alonso delivering. All the rumours of Vettel joining them are, in my opinion, baseless speculations: Alonso will not allow another strong driver with him. Could have they been more successful (until now) with Kimi instead of Alonso? I think so. Will Alonso be more successful than Kimi at the end of his time in Ferrari? I am betting on it.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:29 pm 
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iamme2 wrote:
I don't think so, not by a long shot!

As pointed out earlier in the thread, Raikkonen gave Ferrari 1 drivers title (against the superior McLaren, in Alonso's words) and 1 constructors title in 2008. So far, after three years, Alonso has nothing to show on that department. That said, Alonso has been a more solid front runner at Ferrari throughout these three years than Raikkonen was during his tenure; and the only time that the finn looked like a force to be reckoned was 2007, up to Monaco (sort of) 2008, and (coincidentially?) after Massa's crash in 2009. Quite irregular in there!

One might try to argue at this point that although the results have not arrived for Ferrari, they have been *there* two times already. In 2010 dropping it for underestimating their competitors (and deciding to race ONLY Webber), and in this year Alonso's chop at Suzuka against Raikkonen was, in the end, proven to be VERY costly. One might say that yes, the results are not there, but that Ferrari is now a stronger team than it ever was when Raikkonen was onboard.

HOWEVER, Alonso has brought another thing to Ferrari: Continuous controversy! Massa is not allowed to race him, and was even asked to move over halfway through the season in 2010, when the distance between them was very small. With Raikkonen, we have a Ferrari giving an equal status to both its drivers. I doubt anyone can argue that this has been the case under Alonso's regime. Furthermore, we have seen Ferrari making a mockery of racing fans all over the world: first, the gearbox on Massa's car, and then Ferrari protesting a green flag overtake in Brazil... Simply embarrassing, and probably more costly than the three points that separated them in the end.
One can say that Alonso brings more money to the team. In fact, Kimi was paid out by Alonso's sponsor to finish his contract a year early. Given how strong the 2010 contender was (finished 1-2 the first race, and every race Ferrari won, except for Singapore, they had both cars there, more often than not 1-2), and the milliard of mistakes Alonso did earlier that year (until Germany, and then Spa), one could think that Kimi would have given them *that* title (I don't think that Raikkonen would have done as good as Alonso did this 2012, though).

At the end of the day, Ferrari has Alonso for a few more years, which means they are betting on Alonso delivering. All the rumours of Vettel joining them are, in my opinion, baseless speculations: Alonso will not allow another strong driver with him. Could have they been more successful (until now) with Kimi instead of Alonso? I think so. Will Alonso be more successful than Kimi at the end of his time in Ferrari? I am betting on it.


1) All ferrari asked was a clarification about the overtake.
2) But with having kimi he would have matched massa at best. It would have been 2009 (before massa's accident) all over again but with a more competitive car.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:46 pm 
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The best answer to the thread title is probably: "Depends who you support."

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:59 pm 
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diablof1 wrote:
Jomox wrote:
Inferno_e_Paradiso wrote:
I think that one thing has been forgotten...

During Alonsos first two years with Ferrari, he didn't have Kimi to compete against, in let's say McLaren or Renault/Lotus.
So my view on the matter is, if Kimi would have stayed in F1, Alonso would have had it at least a bit more difficult during his chase to win the WDC 2010.

I hope I made my statements somewhat understandeble :-)


It would go something like this.

Ferrari: "Kimi Fernando is faster than you, you know what to do"
Kimi: "F*ck Off"


more like

Ferrari: "Kimi Fernando is faster than you, you know what to do"
Kimi: "Leave me alone, I know what I'm doing"


Ferrari: "Kimi Fernando is faster than you, you know what to do"
McLaren: "Kimi we need to switch to plan C. I repeat, plan C."
Montoya: "all hail the mods Raikkonen, what a all hail the mods idiot"
Sauber: "Kimi, we need this position"
Kimi: "Leave me alone, I know what I'm doing. And don't talk to me in the middle of a corner."


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 2:04 pm 
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Whats the point in this anyway? What happened happened three years ago. From Ferraris point of view it was worth it . They all have to live with it, Kimi ,Alonso,Ferrari..to me it doesnt mean a rats donkey. More competitive teams more the merrier,that it was worth,for Lotus.


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