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The Massa Kimi beat and the Massa Alonso beat are two different persons just so you know.

all people are equal... and some people are more idiots than others.... damn, I meant 'equal'....

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We are worse than animals, we hunger for the kill.
We put our faith in maniacs the triumph of the will,
We kill for money, wealth and lust, for this we should be damned.
We are disease upon the world, brotherhood of man.

That quote is the winner, they don't make drivers like that anymore.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQGl-q36sVk

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Hi Snakes,

Dun take this the wrong way, but not everyone has the "win or lose at all costs" outlook. It's just a forum, and clearly everyone has their own opinions regarding F1. I'm usually about having fun and prefer not to take things so seriously cos it is supposed to be a hobby, not a profession. And I am quite a busy person and sometimes I think it is really pointless to repeat points if people won't even be open to different views, that's why I respectfully said what I said Anyway, I dun even remember the context of why I said what I said so I'll reply based on this topic, if that's ok with you?

If I want to give my honest opinion on this whole matter, (which I have done some time ago but can't remember if it was here or somewhere else) I don't think what Ferrari did was well worth it in any sense you looked at it. And here's why:

1) Massa just had the accident, Ferrari should have taken the option to use 2010 as a gap year for Massa to sit out the season to recuperate. After all, he is paid much less than Kimi so it makes perfect sense financially, emotionally (for Massa and tifosi), physically (for Massa), and politically (for showing tifosi they care for Massa's well-being and for treating Kimi a little more civilly than what they did to him to ruin his reputation).

2) Kimi was paid handsomely NOT to drive for reportedly 18 months. Why couldn't they have the option to have 2 WDCs in their camp for 2010 and let Kimi know that it would be the last year for him in Ferrari? They could have taken the opportunity to "ignore" Kimi's feedback and just focus on Alonso too. They could have used that pay-off money much more effectively. They could have let the tifosi feel, wow, Ferrari is really gunning for it hard, getting 2 WDCs to drive for them - like what Macca did (with Lewis and Jenson). Now that would be marketing 101. But it seemed Kimi had an equal-status clause signed into his contract (when there was a time Schummy dominated the team and the roberstons were so shrewd to put that clause in). That's why Kimi always said "we are equal". From this perspective, it didn't make any sense at all what ferrari did. Not even if it was because Santander paid for it. That was money not well-spent. And I bet it is because Santander paid for it that Ferrari so casually and callously dismissed their last world champion. The worst thing for me in all of this was, they treated Kimi with such disregard and went all out to ruin his reputation just to "justify" their actions. From a fan's perspective, it was just low from Ferrari. We get that the changing of the guards (Todt to Stefano) meant a change of strategic members but Ferrari didn't have to take the route that they did. Even if they insisted on ending the relationship, they didn't need to kick the man so publicly unless they were also afraid he would show them up in another team the following season (and in some ways, I think he showed them up this season).

WARNING - PURE SPECULATIONS FROM THIS POINT!
In some ways, I think Massa's uneven performance these past couple of years are due the car and his emotional state. I dun want to speculate the 08-09 Massa and the 10-12 Massa but it seems that we always have to go there. I dunno where the sources are now, but I remember distinctly that Massa had been boasting he was no.1 in the beginning of 09 having forgotten his teammate had helped him out a number of times in 08 than he did for Kimi in 07. He has also forgotten that Kimi had many issues for performance failures (like exhaust falling out in france, hammy hitting him in canada, and I can;t remember some other issues, like tyre strategies gone wrong - but those could have contributed to spa DNF for overdriving to compensate for all the lost points). Anyway, this kind of "confidence" coming from Massa, an emotional driver, tells you that he had tremendous support from Stefano/Schummy. And according to Leo Turinni, Ferrari had approached Alonso when spy-gate was full-blown. So Kimi was not able to understand why they signed an option with Alonso in summer 08 when he had just won the WDC in 07and was at that point, still in contention in 08... I guess it could explain his over-driving in spa and later, his willingness to help massa in a no. of races when he was out of contention. I think he was trying to show that if he could not lead the WDC charge, he could at least be a team player. This quality is something a few drivers on the grid certainly lack and they are in the top 3 cars.

I could see how low Kimi's spirit had been by the end of it all. Even drivers like Rosberg came out saying they would not have been able to tolerate such treatment, let alone still perform for the team when they needed him to. Kimi taking the 2 years off to rally was just what the doctor ordered. He could clear his head, get his mindset back to where he would be happy again and see if his skin would grow thick enough to return to F1. For fans like me, I'm so happy he returned. Even if he didn't perform as well as he did this year, I would still have just been euphoric. I even went to 7 Gps this year when I only went on 1 every year since 2009. And I would likely try to go for as many or more GPs in the next years until he reitres. After that, I'll probably be just another spectator watching from the tele broadcast and maybe go back to the 1 a year race.

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FORZA FERNANDO * FORZA FERRARI * FORZA FELIPE

I am so falling in love with you!!!!!

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KIMI: Yeah,Winning feels good.But I am not the type of guy to jump up and down and rub it in everyone's face.

Usman,

I dun think ur wifey would approve

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FORZA FERNANDO * FORZA FERRARI * FORZA FELIPE

Totally not!!! She is an alonso fan

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KIMI: Yeah,Winning feels good.But I am not the type of guy to jump up and down and rub it in everyone's face.

ahhh, she likes the hot blooded types eh??? She probably needs a lot of comforting from you seeing as Fonzie has not won a WDC since 06...

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FORZA FERNANDO * FORZA FERRARI * FORZA FELIPE

Nah. She started following this year.... And became an Alonso fan coz i dont like him

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KIMI: Yeah,Winning feels good.But I am not the type of guy to jump up and down and rub it in everyone's face.

The trouble with Kimi is that at the age of 33 he's probably the oldest teenager in the world, his radio comments this season hint at that. His biggest problem however is his lack of application when faced with a situation where he can't win. I wonder where he would have finished in Melbourne or Valencia if he'd been in Fernando's shoes.

you do realize he came back from 2 years out rallying dun you? cut the guy some slack.

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FORZA FERNANDO * FORZA FERRARI * FORZA FELIPE

ah ah... wifey deserves a spanking just to spite you cos you dun like Fonzie

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FORZA FERNANDO * FORZA FERRARI * FORZA FELIPE

His comeback has been very good. He's shown that he's lost none of his speed. When he's good he's amazing, when he's not he's awful.

This whole thread proves your point. Those who want to find fault with the decision will do so, those who want to support it will defend it. As usual, many opinions are being represented as facts, and many facts are being dismissed as meaningless.

It should be surprising that this thread is still "alive", but then, given the passion of some of Alonso's critics, it isn't really a shock.

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Forza Ferrari
WCCs = 16
WDCs = 15

Now now Blake, the passionate work done by Alonso's fans also deserves some credit

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Räikkönen - Vettel - Rosberg - Bottas

True, Cov.... But there so many less of them... they kind of get lost in the avalanche.

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Forza Ferrari
WCCs = 16
WDCs = 15

I can't speak for others here, but my impression is that it is not about Alonso in particular, it was about Ferrari, and whether what they did was worth it.

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FORZA FERNANDO * FORZA FERRARI * FORZA FELIPE

Some interesting reading.

http://f1bias.com/2012/04/05/truth-abou ... nder-2008/

Well said And i support both drivers. Just glad to have Raikkonen back in the action this year

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F1 fan since 97...
Kimi Raikkonen
Fernando Alonso
Lewis Hamilton
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Alonso : As long as the car is not red, I wish you the best.

First of all, great post.

Second, you clearly missed the two smilies at the end of my post or else you would not have written the first paragraph at all. You do know what they mean right? Accusing me of having a win at all costs outlook is weird when I clearly showed you I was having fun with the comment, meaning I wasn't being serious about it.

Third, as you said, all you have is speculation. The facts say that Alonso and Kimi, after a similar number of races, have similar stats even though Alonso has had tougher opposition and Kimi had two cars that were at worst equal-best to only 1 other car, something Alonso has not had. You can try to make it look however you want, you can try to speculate on all the behind-the-scene stuff and assume Kimi felt this way or that way or that Ferrari were out to make him fail, or as the other guy said, Schumi wanted Kimi to fail and made sure it happened, but if you have nothing to back it up then how am I supposed to believe any of it?

The one thing you guys keep saying is that Ferrari is a worse team now than it was before, yet Alonso has as many wins and podiums as Kimi after three years in spite of being in what you guys consider to be a worse team and having more opposition to compete against. Sounds to me like Ferrari traded up.

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I think it was worth it. Kimi just seemed to lose interest in F1 when he did what he set out to do and that was to be World Champion.

on second - ok, I didn't know if it was one of those "I put smiley there to disarm people but I really just want to do the opposite" things...

on third, hmm, I dun think I said all those things about Fonzie or Kimi. Yeah, I dun have evidence that's why I say it is speculation. I only really talked about Massa and why it is not a good idea to compare fonzie and kimi using massa as a yardstick. Then someone posted a link of Soren and wrcva's piece on the whole 08-09 thingy but the issue is if someone would read it and agree with it or not. The piece is a read-between-the-lines one backed up by articles with timelines. And I am one of those who agree with what these two people have pieced together. But from your reply here, I would venture a guess this piece would not be what you call hard-core evidence, something that none of us non-insiders would be privy to anyway, so anyone would have lost the plot right there and then when in such "debates".

Regarding whether Ferrari traded up... the main point I was making when replying to you was whether replacing raikkonen with fernando was worth it or not. I gave my opinions from financial and marketing perspectives. I dun really care for the stats between the 2 drivers, who IMHO, are two very very talented drivers with very very different personalities. And I haven't thought about it from a trading-up perspective. But if you do think they have traded up, it certainly hasn't materialized for Ferrari yet in terms of WDC or WCC (for whatever reasons). I certainly don't think Alonso is the weakest link but we cannot assume that his competitors stayed constant in their performances nor can we assume that Ferrari had not made inroads with their cars. Overall, I'm just having a hard time accepting that year x car is shit compared to year y or year z, etc. There are just so many variables and factors at play, it is just impossible to compute unless we are able to develop a data network that enables such analysis.

Also on your last para - why do you lump those who think ferrari is worse team now together as a group? Is it because we happen to have a difference of opinions. First of all, I am one of those who are of the opinion that the team is much more together than when kimi was there. This team is united and cohesive etc. Again, this unity and cohesiveness may have been due to several factors (of which none of us are also privy to). But it seems they have each other's backs (well except that Alonso kept saying that the car was shit right around the time when Massa started getting his mojo back). And when I contrast this to when kimi was there, they afforded him no such luxuries once Todt stood down. And yet, when he was called upon to help the team in their darkest moments, Kimi came through for them even in his darkest moments. So it is from this point of view that I wonder if Ferrari did trade up as you suggested. Again, I do not care for stats at all. I'm also not interested if this will eventually spiral into a senseless going-nowhere discussion. If we disagree, it's fine too. Everyone is rightfully allowed to have their own POVs

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FORZA FERNANDO * FORZA FERRARI * FORZA FELIPE

I, for one, am very impressed by the direction of this thread and maturity of the posters. This is by far the longest, most civil "Driver vs. Driver" thread I've seen in some time. And it's with two very polarizing entities which caused a few people banned via the Raikkonen Official thread. LOL I enjoy reading this stuff, everyone! Keep it up!

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[ Kimi Raikkonen ]
2007 Formula 1 World Drivers Champion

Thats coz we are not discussing Hamilton or button... That usually turns a thread nasty!! Kimi and Alonso fans are way more civilized.

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KIMI: Yeah,Winning feels good.But I am not the type of guy to jump up and down and rub it in everyone's face.

That's a weird reaction to have to such an innocent comment. Instead of trying to read between the lines, just read what I write next time.

As for why I lumped you in with others on here, I assumed you agreed with what others were saying since you said they replied the way you would reply.



It's easy to see when a car is better compared to other cars because of how well they do against their competition. You're mistake is this:



That's not required at all because the cars are judged by how well they do against the competition, so it's easy to see when the Ferrari was a top-2 car and when McLaren and Red Bull had better cars.

The funny thing is you say the team seems to be better now than it was when Kimi was there. It's funny because you refused to make the assumption that Alonso had something to do with that but you are more than willing to make assumptions about why Kimi did not perform as well as Massa for most of his time there, and why Ferrari are worse financially and from a marketing perspective (BTW, isn't Alonso more sponsor-friendly than Kimi? I think Lotus has answered that quite a bit this year when they talk about how they handle Kimi and his time away from the circuit).

This conversation will go nowhere, that's for sure, so except for your weird response to my innocent comment, all went well.



We're trying!



I'm not so sure about that , but of course there are exceptions.

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Ok, I guess I have come across a number of posters who are not as simple and honest as you are *hugs*




I guess I disagree from this perspective because you dun just judge outright speed, for example. Reliability is also a factor, and a driver's comfort level (or being one with the car) is also another factor. As Schummy, Kimi and Stefano confirmed, the development direction that the F2008 took went away from Kimi's preferred driving style. So while it became more and more suited to Massa, it had the opposite impact on Kimi. With the benefit of hindsight, and if I would venture a guess, I think the F2012 may have also went slightly away from Fonzie in the last couple of races and again to the positive impact for Massa. This is one reason I can think of for Massa's recent upswing in performance.

In my mind, all the seasoned drivers are about the same skill level. They just need their personalized equipment to really be in the zone...from this angle, it is why I dun look at stats.





What I mean by the team seems to be better now, is that there is personality harmony. Kimi had that when Todt was there, but the moment Stefano took over, the "harmony" went to hell although you could not see from the outside. As I said, I choose to believe what Soren and wrcva wrote about the 2008-09 saga because they had the timelines of news releases that showed why the car was not ideal for Kimi. That's also why I said we cannot compare Kimi and Fonzie's performances based on Massa's.



It is not about who is more sponsor friendly. I meant that Ferrari would have scored major marketing success if they had 2 WDCs in their stable, like Lewis and Jenson for Macca. If you are a marque team like Ferrari, you only want to hire the best, isn't it? And since both of them are WDCs, it would appear that they mean business and sends a chilling message to their competitors, no??? They were willing to throw so much money to pay off Kimi when they could have used that money more effectively - by paying Kimi that amount to DRIVE for them instead. It is from this perspective that it was not a financially worthwhile thing to do.




actually after your response above, I think this discussion is going somewhere quite ok, dun you think? I think I am better understanding your points of view and trying to convey mine as well...

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FORZA FERNANDO * FORZA FERRARI * FORZA FELIPE

Another interesting question to ask here might be if Santander thinks it was worth it for them. They have gotten a big fat zero out of their investment in F1. Imagine paying a driver to NOT RACE to make sure your guy wins and still 3 years later, no championships and no glory. If anything they got more bad press from this, it doesn''t look good when in the middle of the financial crisis caused by banks a bank is seen to be throwing money away by paying drivers NOT to race. Santander does not operate in North America but if it did I would make a point to not use their services or products or that of any company associated with them.

Ferrari came off looking bad in my view. You just don't handle a premiere F1 driver the way they did with Kimi. They did the same with Prost, and to my mind, they weren't alll that brilliant with Schumy either. With Schumy and Kimi, it was their own champions - their own champions - that they appeared to treat with utter disrespect - from the outside looking in - and that is the most important perspective, isn't it...

So my viewpoint is perhaps a bit distinct. It wasn't worth it at all, but not because of Kimi, who got to do rallying which he loved and returned to find success with another team, or for Prost, ditto, or for Schumy, who's 7 titles is a lifetime achievement. Not even because of Alonso, who is trying to find his way in the red car. It wasn't worth it because of the further damage to Ferrari's reputation.

I know some will strike back with their on-going world wide popularity and so forth. However, they could have even more if they would just fly straight in terms of the handling of their drivers.

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Do you honestly think that the "world" cares if Ferrari paid Kimi to end his contract early and signed Fernando Alonso in his place??? Most of the world could care less... even the car crazy world. To think that Ferrari's reputation is "damage" is foolish in my opinion. Sometimes we get caught up in our own avid little F1 world and begin to feel that the rest of the world thinks as we do. Time and time again, manufacturers have proven that not to be the case. Ferrari car sales & memoribilia sales will not suffer because of the perceived unfairness to Kimi by Kimi fans. Mercedes sales did not suffer because the F1 team did not dominate, nor did BMWs, Toyota's and Honda's.

F1 gets their name in front of the public. Success of the brand can make their corporate image greater as can drivers. However, to think that replacing Kimi with Alonso or even Schumi with Kimi causes some great swing in Ferrari image is one hell of a reach.

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Forza Ferrari
WCCs = 16
WDCs = 15

Blake,

From your rationale, I completely agree with you. No one in the car world could care less. It is only the avid F1 fans who would be interested in such things.

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FORZA FERNANDO * FORZA FERRARI * FORZA FELIPE

Blake's point, which I share, made me think I would like to read how Ferrari put this whole episode to their customers - supposing of course that they send them publicity magazines as most manufacturers seem to do. I remember being very amazed at how BMW presented their F1 adventure at the time. Supposedly, such "information" is meant to be read and achieve some kind of strengthening of customer feeling of belonging in the great Ferrari family.


Jinx, I believe you're making the mistake of thinking Ferrari paid off Kimi. They didn't, it was Santander, who needed to buy Alonso a place in a top team before he went stale. Which means it's not certain Ferrari would have received that money for other puposes in the first place.

If it is true that the only thing worse than bad publicity is no publicity, then perhaps Santander really do think they achieved what they wanted. But I have to admit that this question was what ran through my mind when I saw the Santander executive in the Ferrari garage for the final race.

How long is Alonso's contract with Santander?

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Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota

Well I agree with you if we are talking about the big wide world in which we live. But I was referring to the world wide popularity of Ferrari among F1 fans. I acknowledged their on-going world wide popularity among those fans, but merely said that it could be greater if they flew straight with the popular drivers they hire. If they toss Alonso in a similar fashion, it won't sit well with some Alonso fans either. I can move back in time to include even more.

These things can be handled with grace. Many believe that McLaren was as eager to let Alonso go as he was to leave, but McLaren's statement was that Alonso decided to leave. He was a double world champion and had earned that respect, whether it was true, 1/2 true or untrue. It is just using 'best methods' to carry out the business.

Why upset large groups of fans? This thread focuses on Kimi, but I was a huge fan of Prost and his leaving F1 for a year was devastating for many. Kimi leaving for 2 years was similarly horrible. I was not a fan of Schumy, but I can relate to his retirement in those circumstances as a similarly weighty situation for his fans. It is just a matter of seeing it from another point of view. The anger is directed at Ferrari because they did not handle the situation well at all. They allowed the media to pass judgment on the drivers, putting them under the grueling spotlight of interrogation and illuminating them as being at fault - when the fault lay with the Ferrari car, which escaped the spotlight in the wake of the headline departures of these superstars of the sport.

So yeah, I still agree with myself, lol. I think Ferrari could handle things much better. They seem to write off the angry F1 fans, but I think from a business standpoint, it would be better to embrace them. That doesn't mean you have to retain the driver, Macca didn't - it just means handling the situation in a respectful manner and not coming across as treating them with a certain amount of callousness.

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Fiki,


I hadn't thought of it in this sense at all. Thanks, it does make sense when we consider that this might have been a prerequisite... so it would seem that Santander preferred to blow all that money to smitherines than to let 2 WDCs represent Ferrari... oh I forgot, who cares about little ol' Finland when they can conquer the big Brazilian market! Now it makes complete sense!!!

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FORZA FERNANDO * FORZA FERRARI * FORZA FELIPE

Amen brother!

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FORZA FERNANDO * FORZA FERRARI * FORZA FELIPE

Santander couldn't care less where Alonso finishes in the championship as long as they get the exposure they want in the markets they want.

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"I am a believer, but I start each Grand Prix with 195 liters of fuel behind me," he explains. "I don't rely entirely on God, I rely on Prost."

Alonso just got voted driver of the year by the team principals for the 2nd time in his 3 years at Ferrari. So clearly he is doing his job. Ferrari knows they have the best driver. If they can produce a car good enough to win the title then they will win it.

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Yes that will sure make you feel better

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..

Minds are like parachutes, they work best when they are open

Of course it does. Wouldn't you be happy if your favorite driver got the award ? I'm not a supporter of Ferrari anyway. I just support Alonso. Actually this award makes me happier than if Ferrari won the Constructors championship. Nothing can substitute a WDC though .

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