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replacing raikkonen with fernando worth it?
yes 41%  41%  [ 104 ]
no 59%  59%  [ 148 ]
Total votes : 252
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:09 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
EverestBaseCamp wrote:
Jammin..

If everything is kept "Relative" as you describe it for Massa- Raikkonen.... Meaning other drivers like Hamilton also present in the grid and mega competetive etc.

Then why the hell did Hamilton barely managed to beat Massa by 1 point in an equally competive Mclaren.

Also, going by the same logic of performance between Massa-Hamilton.... And your current "Relative" performance of Alonso against Massa.... Then doesn't that actually make all other drivers on the Grid in 2008 really aweful to have been trounced by Massa.

You are trying to say Alonso is so much superior to Kimi because of Massa's point difference.... Yet he has 0 WDC's.


Technically, Kimi has "also" trounced Massa driving a Lotus in a approx points margin that Alonso has in 2012. Kimi was absent in 2010-11, so your assessment is really flawed as one of the main protagonist of the comparision was not on the grid.



You assuming that the Ferrari and Mclaren were equal in 2008. What are you basing that on?

Assuming that Heikki Kovalaïnen wasn't quite up to the level of the defending world champion, the comfortable second place in the constructors' championship might be taken as a trustworthy indicator, might it not?

The Ferrari was the fastest car, Massa had most poles and wins, Kimi most fastest laps, Kimi's season got derailed by problems he had in qualifying getting heat into his tyres, once the tyres came to him the car was a rocketship but overtaking at times was near impossible, hence the introduction of DRS
Good point, Ferrari was the fastest car. But which was the better?
By the way, I understand Räikkönen is responsible for the introduction of DRS? Wait till he comes home.... :twisted: (Of course he wasn't, it was the Ferrari design staff, unable to turn the fastest car into the best. :) )

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 12:41 pm 
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It's inevitable that almost 99% of all threads of this forum end up sucked into the vortex of Kimi vs. Massa in 2008

So I'll do like so many forum members here and just look at statistics without digging an inch beneath the surface.

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replacing raikkonen with fernando worth it?
yes 41% [ 102 ]
no 59% [ 146 ]


Cheers


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 2:19 pm 
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I don't know what would have happened had Kimi stayed at Ferrari, but one thing is for sure, Fernando hasn't pushed no kid nor photographer yet, so that's one reason to vote YES xD


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 2:49 pm 
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I stayed quiet so far on this... I believe Luca doesn't understand much about running F1 team on track. He pays people to do it. Trouble started when he got too paranoid and too involved. Ferrari have won only 1 WDC and two WCC(iirc) ever since he got too involved, this coming from Schumacher/ Todt/ Brawn/ Byrne juggernaut. Attaining success at such a rate is not sustainable for long, but to trail off like they have is sure down to whatever monkey business was going on behind the scenes. I think they should have kept Michael till '08 or so then gotten either Kimi/ Alonso, whoever was available.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 2:53 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
EverestBaseCamp wrote:
Jammin..

If everything is kept "Relative" as you describe it for Massa- Raikkonen.... Meaning other drivers like Hamilton also present in the grid and mega competetive etc.

Then why the hell did Hamilton barely managed to beat Massa by 1 point in an equally competive Mclaren.

Also, going by the same logic of performance between Massa-Hamilton.... And your current "Relative" performance of Alonso against Massa.... Then doesn't that actually make all other drivers on the Grid in 2008 really aweful to have been trounced by Massa.

You are trying to say Alonso is so much superior to Kimi because of Massa's point difference.... Yet he has 0 WDC's.


Technically, Kimi has "also" trounced Massa driving a Lotus in a approx points margin that Alonso has in 2012. Kimi was absent in 2010-11, so your assessment is really flawed as one of the main protagonist of the comparision was not on the grid.



You assuming that the Ferrari and Mclaren were equal in 2008. What are you basing that on?

Assuming that Heikki Kovalaïnen wasn't quite up to the level of the defending world champion, the comfortable second place in the constructors' championship might be taken as a trustworthy indicator, might it not?

The Ferrari was the fastest car, Massa had most poles and wins, Kimi most fastest laps, Kimi's season got derailed by problems he had in qualifying getting heat into his tyres, once the tyres came to him the car was a rocketship but overtaking at times was near impossible, hence the introduction of DRS
Good point, Ferrari was the fastest car. But which was the better?
By the way, I understand Räikkönen is responsible for the introduction of DRS? Wait till he comes home.... :twisted: (Of course he wasn't, it was the Ferrari design staff, unable to turn the fastest car into the best. :) )

This seems another thread blaming the design staff for a driver's problems whlst its the fastest car in the other drivers hands, the actual DRS point i made was a generalisation that overtaking was very difficult for everybody and so wasn't a criticism of Kimi but quite the opposite in fact in explaining the snowball effect caused by his poor qualifying.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 2:59 pm 
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F1nsider wrote:
It's inevitable that almost 99% of all threads of this forum end up sucked into the vortex of Kimi vs. Massa in 2008

So I'll do like so many forum members here and just look at statistics without digging an inch beneath the surface.

Quote:
replacing raikkonen with fernando worth it?
yes 41% [ 102 ]
no 59% [ 146 ]


Cheers

Well in the cold light of the day any extra performance Alonso has brought to the team hasn't brought any titles, so understandable

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 4:18 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:


You assuming that the Ferrari and Mclaren were equal in 2008. What are you basing that on?

Assuming that Heikki Kovalaïnen wasn't quite up to the level of the defending world champion, the comfortable second place in the constructors' championship might be taken as a trustworthy indicator, might it not?

The Ferrari was the fastest car, Massa had most poles and wins, Kimi most fastest laps, Kimi's season got derailed by problems he had in qualifying getting heat into his tyres, once the tyres came to him the car was a rocketship but overtaking at times was near impossible, hence the introduction of DRS
Good point, Ferrari was the fastest car. But which was the better?
By the way, I understand Räikkönen is responsible for the introduction of DRS? Wait till he comes home.... :twisted: (Of course he wasn't, it was the Ferrari design staff, unable to turn the fastest car into the best. :) )

This seems another thread blaming the design staff for a driver's problems whlst its the fastest car in the other drivers hands, the actual DRS point i made was a generalisation that overtaking was very difficult for everybody and so wasn't a criticism of Kimi but quite the opposite in fact in explaining the snowball effect caused by his poor qualifying.

I was just joking. Well, mostly. I agree it was the fastest car; how else would the fastest driver in F1 have scored that record amount of fastest laps? Taking your lead a bit further, the results seem to indicate it was a car better suited to Massa than to Räikkönen, which is just fine. Was it the best all-round? Probably not, because another team's driver managed to win the drivers' title, while his new teammate was fourth. So it isn't altogether nonsensical to think both cars were fairly evenly matched. Or "equal" as mikeyg123 put it. Which is what I initally reacted to.

DRS is, of course, wholly nonsensical. But if it sells overpriced F1 tickets and gets bums on seats...

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 7:10 pm 
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garagetinkerer wrote:
I believe Luca doesn't understand much about running F1 team on track.
So, what was Luca doing back in the 70s?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 7:30 pm 
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chican wrote:
garagetinkerer wrote:
I believe Luca doesn't understand much about running F1 team on track.
So, what was Luca doing back in the 70s?

Image

Telling Niki what he was doing wrong? :D

On a serious note, and perhaps ever so slightly off-topic, why was there ever a ban on tobacco advertising in the seventies? :?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 8:26 pm 
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chican wrote:
garagetinkerer wrote:
I believe Luca doesn't understand much about running F1 team on track.
So, what was Luca doing back in the 70s?

Image

how do you explain his handling of Michael and Kimi, and other staff including Todt? Or do you think Ferrari are better off now?

edit: I'll give you that he knows the business side of F1 as good as anyone out there.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:06 am 
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garagetinkerer wrote:
how do you explain his handling of Michael and Kimi, and other staff including Todt?
I just don't try to justify anything but I've read somewhere that there were not so clean business inside the team involving JT, RB and several others, so there might be one possible justification among many. As for the drivers, everyone runs his enterprise his-r own way, and Luca is an entrepreneur above all. But if you look at the past there are many other examples of decisions hard to understand for us in other teams like McLaren, Williams, Sauber...


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:17 am 
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stendec wrote:
Grosjean did very well at Silverstone but pardon me for highlighting a few facts here.

1. Grosjean switched to New Hard tyres on lap 2 when pitting after his incident. His second stint was also on new hard tyres.
2. Grosjean had to therefore run on softs for only 1 lap, by far the fewest of any driver that finished.
3. On race day, the hard tyre clearly proved better than the soft.If I recall correctly, Alonso lost this race arguably due to the soft tyre stint at the end of the race.
4. Grosjean did a terrific job of managing his hard tyres, effectively making it a one-stop race for him after pitting so early.
5. It is easy to argue that he battered Kimi since Grosjean did several more overtakes than Kimi. Any racing fan will tell you that its easier for a Lotus to overtake 2 Caterhams, 2 Toro Rosso's, 2 Mercedes' etc than overtake 1 Red Bull or 1 Ferrari (who were quick that weekend).

Haha, not if Vettel's involved. Overtaking the backmarkers and Toro Rossos and Mercedes is a feat worthy of the greats if Vettel's involved haha. I love double standards (not saying you have double standards stendec, I tend to agree with you on your post).

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:14 am 
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chican wrote:
garagetinkerer wrote:
how do you explain his handling of Michael and Kimi, and other staff including Todt?
I just don't try to justify anything but I've read somewhere that there were not so clean business inside the team involving JT, RB and several others, so there might be one possible justification among many. As for the drivers, everyone runs his enterprise his-r own way, and Luca is an entrepreneur above all. But if you look at the past there are many other examples of decisions hard to understand for us in other teams like McLaren, Williams, Sauber...

These posts reminded me of being surprised by some writing it was Todt who wanted Räikkönen, while at the time Schumacher decided not to drive alongside Kimi, it was said di Montezemolo forced Todt into accepting Räikkönen. Ferrari politics are never far below the surface.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 12:48 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
chican wrote:
garagetinkerer wrote:
how do you explain his handling of Michael and Kimi, and other staff including Todt?
I just don't try to justify anything but I've read somewhere that there were not so clean business inside the team involving JT, RB and several others, so there might be one possible justification among many. As for the drivers, everyone runs his enterprise his-r own way, and Luca is an entrepreneur above all. But if you look at the past there are many other examples of decisions hard to understand for us in other teams like McLaren, Williams, Sauber...

These posts reminded me of being surprised by some writing it was Todt who wanted Räikkönen, while at the time Schumacher decided not to drive alongside Kimi, it was said di Montezemolo forced Todt into accepting Räikkönen. Ferrari politics are never far below the surface.



I think that was my post and I still stand for it. I don;t think I expressed my thought clearly though:

1. There are evidences that Todt wanted Kimi to drive for Ferrari. He mentioned it several times. Of course, when and under what conditions he would want to have Kimi, is another question.
2. BUT, it doesn't mean that the actual move from McLaren to Ferrari was organised by Todt. There are (again) reports that it was orchestrated by Luca, in order to push Schumi out and weaken Todt position in Ferrari.
3. HOWEVER, my opinion is that Luca didn't get in Kimi what he bargained for. Kimi stayed a man of his own and didn't play in Luca's interest. From what I read in many magazines Kimi and Todt have great relationship (we are not talking about friendship here).
4. As soon as Todt was gone and it became obvious that Kimi wasn't playing by Luca's rules, he (Luca) started to look for another top driver who would play along.

this is off-topic and just to make clear my thoughts from previous posts

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 1:35 pm 
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Denorth wrote:
Fiki wrote:
chican wrote:
garagetinkerer wrote:
how do you explain his handling of Michael and Kimi, and other staff including Todt?
I just don't try to justify anything but I've read somewhere that there were not so clean business inside the team involving JT, RB and several others, so there might be one possible justification among many. As for the drivers, everyone runs his enterprise his-r own way, and Luca is an entrepreneur above all. But if you look at the past there are many other examples of decisions hard to understand for us in other teams like McLaren, Williams, Sauber...

These posts reminded me of being surprised by some writing it was Todt who wanted Räikkönen, while at the time Schumacher decided not to drive alongside Kimi, it was said di Montezemolo forced Todt into accepting Räikkönen. Ferrari politics are never far below the surface.



I think that was my post and I still stand for it. I don;t think I expressed my thought clearly though:

1. There are evidences that Todt wanted Kimi to drive for Ferrari. He mentioned it several times. Of course, when and under what conditions he would want to have Kimi, is another question.
2. BUT, it doesn't mean that the actual move from McLaren to Ferrari was organised by Todt. There are (again) reports that it was orchestrated by Luca, in order to push Schumi out and weaken Todt position in Ferrari.
3. HOWEVER, my opinion is that Luca didn't get in Kimi what he bargained for. Kimi stayed a man of his own and didn't play in Luca's interest. From what I read in many magazines Kimi and Todt have great relationship (we are not talking about friendship here).4. As soon as Todt was gone and it became obvious that Kimi wasn't playing by Luca's rules, he (Luca) started to look for another top driver who would play along.

this is off-topic and just to make clear my thoughts from previous posts


Kimi and Todt were more than friends?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 1:48 pm 
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chican wrote:
I don't know what would have happened had Kimi stayed at Ferrari, but one thing is for sure, Fernando hasn't pushed no kid nor photographer yet, so that's one reason to vote YES xD



lol, that photographer had it coming, the kid well...i'd blame that crazy woman with the clipboard for that one ;)


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 2:19 pm 
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diablof1 wrote:

Kimi and Todt were more than friends?


using an opportunity to post just for sake of it?

how about - less than friends? didn't occur to you?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 2:50 pm 
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Denorth wrote:
diablof1 wrote:

Kimi and Todt were more than friends?


using an opportunity to post just for sake of it?

how about - less than friends? didn't occur to you?


:lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 2:52 pm 
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F1nsider wrote:
It's inevitable that almost 99% of all threads of this forum end up sucked into the vortex of Kimi vs. Massa in 2008

So I'll do like so many forum members here and just look at statistics without digging an inch beneath the surface.

Quote:
replacing raikkonen with fernando worth it?
yes 41% [ 102 ]
no 59% [ 146 ]


Cheers

The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread - currently 262 pages
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15

The Official Fernando Alonso thread - currently 3 pages
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=73

I wouldn't take the poll results too seriously.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 3:41 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
F1nsider wrote:
It's inevitable that almost 99% of all threads of this forum end up sucked into the vortex of Kimi vs. Massa in 2008

So I'll do like so many forum members here and just look at statistics without digging an inch beneath the surface.

Quote:
replacing raikkonen with fernando worth it?
yes 41% [ 102 ]
no 59% [ 146 ]


Cheers

The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread - currently 262 pages
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15

The Official Fernando Alonso thread - currently 3 pages
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=73

I wouldn't take the poll results too seriously.

Yes i guess it has to be taking into account that Kimi is possibly the best supported driver on the forum

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 4:00 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
F1nsider wrote:
It's inevitable that almost 99% of all threads of this forum end up sucked into the vortex of Kimi vs. Massa in 2008

So I'll do like so many forum members here and just look at statistics without digging an inch beneath the surface.

Quote:
replacing raikkonen with fernando worth it?
yes 41% [ 102 ]
no 59% [ 146 ]


Cheers

The Official Kimi Räikkonen thread - currently 262 pages
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15

The Official Fernando Alonso thread - currently 3 pages
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=73

I wouldn't take the poll results too seriously.



That was a joke post. My serious take on this thread is back few pages when it was still a civilised discussion :)

chican wrote:
garagetinkerer wrote:
I believe Luca doesn't understand much about running F1 team on track.
So, what was Luca doing back in the 70s?

Image



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And I'm a straight guy


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