planetf1.com

Have no1 asked the question:
Why didn't Ferrari allow Kimi to race in F1 in different team? They clearly paid him to stay out of F1 but why? Ofc few teams wanted him but in news it was clearly said that Kimi wanted too much money (and that was never the case said by Kimi). And looking from this season Lotus hitted the jackpot (wasn't cheap because of all those bonuses), imagine him at McLaren with Lewis. But that wouldn't have worked because McLaren is worst kind of team to Kimi. So was Ferrari and in reality not many teams allow Kimi have what he really needs.

And Kimi doesn't need motivation, he needs a little bit freedom and that's his motivation. If Kimi enjoys his being as pure driver he will get the results.

Santander did get more out of Massa/Alonso than with Kimi/Alonso. And Ferrari got them a leader. Wouldn't be suprised that Alonso is the man who every1 listens in Ferrari and says the final word about some things.

based on the bolded part of your statement, when does it become Alonso's "responsibility" if the team doesn't win the WDC and WCC???

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I'll tell you when. When he under-performs at his own job. Being a consultant/advisor at Ferrari is not his job. Ferrari occasionally uses his advice on other matters because its free and valuable.

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Don't forget that at the time Weber and Schumacher wanted to leave Benetton for damaging his good name, the official verdict on their cheating was still to come. Which, if you think about it, means that Weber and Schumacher had already decided Benetton were indeed cheating. But leaving there and then would have constituted a breach of contract, with consequences. It may well be that Weber and Schumacher were as surprised as all of us when the FIA decided not to throw the team out for cheating.

Senna was going to Ferrari; do you believe he wanted to go to a team without any prospect of winning the title(s) with them, after leaving McLaren when their dry spell started? I don't. I am convinced Schumacher - and Weber - were aware of how Todt was changing the way Ferrari worked. Since Ferrari never dropped out of the top tier of teams (despite what some would have us believe about the state they were in in the first half of the nineties), they had every reason to believe switching to them was less of a gamble than you seem to think. 1997 showed they were right; Schumacher threw the title away, but he was a contender down to the final race.

That was a ironic reaction to callMEcrazy; since we know that the decision to parachute Alonso in and drop Räikkönen from Ferrari was not taken in 2009, but only weeks/months after Räikkönen had won the drivers' world championship, and Ferrari themselves won the constructors' championship; it would be interesting to know just how their opinion of Räikkönen had changed since he was recruited. It was clear they were not really capable of building him the car he needed, but whether that was his fault or theirs is not something I need to think long and hard about.

I'm not ignoring anything; but the suggestion was made Ferrari didn't want Kimi. That may be true, but they did recruit him to race alongside Schumacher. If they didn't want him, why hire him?

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Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota

Hi CMC,

tht was what I was trying to say about putting all that praise on Fonzie... he's only a driver... just like all the other drivers on the grid. People are giving him far too much credit for being this and that other than being a capable driver who can give good feedback about the car he's driving. I mean, the other side of the argument could be that if he is a this and that as proclaimed by people, why hasn't Ferrari won any WDCs or WCCs since his arrival? What I'm trying to say (without trying to put him down) is that he is not responsible for many aspects of the whole shebang. He has been performing above par based on what his job scope is. But even if I am only assessing his driving this year, I dun think he is as flawless as many people make him out to be becos I do think that towards the last couple of races, Massa had performed better than Fonzie. But almost all year long, his driving had been a sight to behold! and that is what I really think about Fonzie. I hope we can appreciate his driving in all its glory and not go overboard and lump all the other "credit" on him bcos it then becomes disrespectful to the other team members who actually did their jobs to keep pushing the development of the car, for example. Hope this comment doesn't upset anyone.

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Ferrari didn't prevent Kimi from racing for McLaren or any other team as far as i'm aware, the problem was the Ferrari severance pay, teams factored that into negotiations with Kimi whilst Kimi wanted an entirely fresh contract as in effectively receiving two top salaried wage deals.

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lol yeah totally.

Kimi did not fit for LdiM. What I´we read, the Ferrari staff or even SD did not have problems. Why not read http://f1bias.com/2012/04/05/truth-about-kimi-ferrari-santander-2008/ to get a picture what were the real reasons for sacking him.

It´s not the case of not being able to build a car but build good business. I bet the real F1 insiders get good laughs every now and then when they read about people arguing only about the sporting side of F1 when the no1 issues for example for Ferrari & Santander are: How do we sell more Fiats or how do we make our banking services more successful in Europe (and in Brazil!!!).

Sorry don´t be more precise. The "newcomers" reference to teams involved, not individuals hired.

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A man is measured by the size of its rivals.

Of course, you are right to pointing this, but to expect that Vettel could duplicate Red Bull performance in MacLaren is a bit optimistic. Look Button´s consecutive seasons at Brawn and MacLaren.

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A man is measured by the size of its rivals.

Its funny that everyone acknowledges how Alonso have driven his car this year which on some occasions was the fastest and in many not too far away, but no one gives credit to Kimi putting a dog of a car, that was much worse and far further than the front than this year's Ferrari, on podiums and scoring the most in the second half of 2009 than any other driver (alongside Hamilton). I think it is also worth mentioning that the car's development was stopped since June that year and all resources were shifted to 2010's car

I bet if it was Alonso, we wouldn't have heard the end of it till date.

The problem is though upto Massa's accident he was beating Kimi and after that there was no true barometer just to gauge how well Kimi was driving

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You don't need a barometer. The car was a dog, and they completely stopped developing it. That only means that it was getting even worse. The only thing that changed is that they listened to Kimi and focused on him when it came to setting up the car

Of course, it is worth it. Räikkönen would be on Massa's level (as he was in their common time), which would mean three catastrophic seasons for Ferrari.

Is there a specific reason why you think Räikkönen would 'only' be at Massa's level? (Which, at any rate, was nothing to be sneezed at.) Perhaps we are forgetting that Massa came closer than anybody had ever imagined, to becoming world champion in 2008, and that in both 2008 and 2009 the car suited him better than it did Räikkönen.
Are you perhaps saying the car would continue to have suited Massa better than Räikkönen? And if so, do you see a specific reason why Alonso has failed for three consecutive years to win the title?

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Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota

Lol, did you read any of the discussion?

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..

Minds are like parachutes, they work best when they are open

One specific reason would be that Ferrari have not had the best car since 2008

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I've no doubts that Kimi drove very well in the second half of 2009, i'm just saying its hard to know just how well in Massa's absense

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The points and the race win may not constitute a barometer, but they at least tell you his weather was nice and sunny.

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Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota

Its funny though how i often read posts that its not possible to outperform the car

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I love your signature-- fastest, most talented, etc. I agree with all of them, fully!

Even current Raikkonen employers think Alonso would do much better in their Lotus car in 2012, so yes, Ferrari made brilliant decision replacing Raikkonen with Alonso.

Do not, I repeat - do not, take anything at face value of what Andrew Benson writes. He is the biggest Alonso fanboy out there and is trying hard to pass as a journalist. The amount of horse manure he has produced is stacking up. There is absolutely no credibility to what he is saying unless he backs it up with real quotes. When called on it, he either ignores or back tracks. Stay clear is my sound advice.

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In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

My blog. Enter at your own risk: http://www.f1bias.com
Kimi fans on FB: http://www.facebook.com/groups/kimifanclub/

I am 100% with Soren on this one - anything that Benson rights should be treated with a careful approach. He was the main journalist who stirred all 'green flag' drama for days before and days after Ferrari made any statements, any Autosport reports.

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Andrew Benson...do we need to say more.
@Soren & Denorth

According to the whinging monobrow the car was basically a dog, i didn't actually hear of anyone at HRT saying their car was a dog......ergo you are correct!
I also agree that Andrew Benson is an Alonso fanboi. Now if anyone were to ask what Benson was smoking i could tell them.......

Well, you added the 'only'.
He was on Massa's level when they were teammates for almost three seasons, so the safest assumption is that he would be on Massa's level. All else is rather speculative.

Yes, the car was obviously not good enough, not even close.

Yes, lots of speculative ifs and maybes - but in the end the most plausible scenario is that one.

Btw, Ferrari failed to produce a sufficiently competitive car for four seasons in a row now.

Are you saying being on Massa's level is something to be ashamed of. Wonder what you think of Alonso then

Had Alonso been at Massa 's level , he probbaly would be 3 x champ now

I would say that your attack on Benson is a bit unjustified given the usual standards in this forum!

We had a full thread about a blog entry by a supporter on the whole 2008-09 Ferrari saga, which was presented by some as an extraordinary piece of well researched journalism. In defense of the blogger, it has to be said that he openly described his blog as a biased approach to F1 . Plus, for some Leo Turrini is considered a reference in terms of objectivity.

So, you may well be right about Benson (I don't know him that well), but he is just balancing the approaches when it comes to Alonso I am sure that we can find similar examples for every other driver.

One thing is true, though: all these comments and discussions keep us going through the off-season, so they do serve a purpose!

It is easily noticeable that Andrew Benson is the biggest Alonso fanboy out there. Not only that, he feels the constant need to belittle Raikkonen's and Schumi's achievements to praise Alonso, which is totally uncalled for and unprofessional. How the BBC employs him is beyond me.

You are right, I added the only. But only (sorry! ) because you wrote that being at that level would mean three catastrophic seasons for Ferrari.
Yet looking at their times together, Räikkönen and Massa won two titles and two near-misses out of six title posssibilities. Alonso and Massa scored 'only' two near-misses out of six. Catastrophic? Perhaps, but hardly on Räikkönen's side.
I understand it was claimed by Ferrari they wanted a driver who could lead a team. Well, perhaps they do. Not that I believe for a second that drivers lead F-1 teams, at least not while they are driving, but perhaps they do. Any suggestions?

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Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota

This thread is still going? I wonder if this'll become a never-ending thread story.

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"You are the universe expressing itself as a Human for a little while..."

I do not think that Massa's level is a bad level. But the competitiveness of the Ferrari during the past four seasons was not good enough, so that two drivers of Massa's level would have - most obviously - meant catastrophic seasons (for Ferrari standards, that is).

You've totally lost me there

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Actually y'know what I'll just wade in with what I think...

Kimi and Felipe @ Ferrari
2007 > Kimi WDC Champ, 110 points > Massa 4th in WDC, 94 points. 16 point difference.
2008 > Massa 2nd in WDC, 97 points > Kimi 3rd in WDC, 75 points. 22 point difference.
2009 > Kimi 6th in WDC, 48 points > Massa 11th in WDC, 22 points. 26 point difference.

in 2009 it's worth noting that Massa missed 8 races. But up to his accident, the points standings were:
Massa 22 points > Kimi 10 points, 12 point difference.

Fernando and Felipe @ Ferrari
2010 > Nando 2nd in WDC, 252 points > Massa 6th in WDC, 144 points. 108 point difference.
2011 > Nando 4th in WDC, 257 points > Massa 6th in WDC, 118 points. 139 point difference.
2012 > Nando 2nd in WDC, 278 points > Massa 7th in WDC, 122 points. 156 point difference.

So, using the common factor between the two (Massa). Alonso has beaten Massa by the equivalent of 5.3 race wins per year on average, whilst Kimi was beaten/being beaten by Massa in two of the three seasons they raced. Kimi defeated Massa by the equivalent of a win and a third place in 07, was beaten by two wins and a 7th in 2008, and was being beaten by a win and a 7th place just after the halfway point in 2009. Felipe actually fared better in 2010 than he has since, so you can't say he lost that much pace after his accident, and he's been on form lately as well. From what I can gather with those statistics, Fernando has been much better compared to Felipe than Kimi.

As such, it was worth replacing Kimi with Fernando, according to statistics, and by all accounts Ferrari seem happier with Alonso around. But that one I can't backup other than what I've read on the forums etc.

Assumptions that can be drawn... if Fernando has been on average 5 wins worth of points ahead of Felipe by the end of the year, and you applied the same margin to 2007-2009 as though he was driving the Ferrari alongside Massa, then Fernando would have been 2007 and 2008 World Champion. But that's an assumption, and is pure speculation on my part.

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