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replacing raikkonen with fernando worth it?
yes 41%  41%  [ 104 ]
no 59%  59%  [ 148 ]
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:57 pm 
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No doubt Räikkonën is a top driver, he's in the same league as Fernando, but his commitment has always been stronger inside the vehicle than outside, and Ferrari is not simply a F1 team...


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:14 pm 
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Some people are saying that alonso is doing a better job than Kimi because of their comparative performances against Massa. This may be partly true, but I think it paints a bit of a false picture. We've seen in the last few races this season that Massa can actually have the pace to be faster than Alonso all weekend, and it seems like once he managed it once, it got his confidence up and he was able to do it again.

I think if Massa had beaten Alonso early in the season, Alonso would have had as much of a fight on his hands as kimi did against Massa.

Massa's problem has never been his pace. It's his massive inconsistency, dips in form, and lack of confidence. Although, it's probably also a fair bit to do with the tyres, which don't/didn't suit his style either.

I actually think kimi and alonso are extremely similar drivers - both top tier in terms of speed (but maybe not quite the fastest), but also drive intelligently and consistently, and almost always make the right judgement calls (not just about when to change to inters, but in terms of all aspects of race-craft).


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:21 pm 
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When Kimi beat Massa , he made it count by winning the title
Kimi is not interested in beating the teammate for the sake of it. Thats what makes him so unpolitical

Alonso wants to beat the teammate even at the expense of his own title. See 2007
Thats his problem


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:27 pm 
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arthurbent wrote:
Some people are saying that alonso is doing a better job than Kimi because of their comparative performances against Massa. This may be partly true, but I think it paints a bit of a false picture. We've seen in the last few races this season that Massa can actually have the pace to be faster than Alonso all weekend, and it seems like once he managed it once, it got his confidence up and he was able to do it again.

I think if Massa had beaten Alonso early in the season, Alonso would have had as much of a fight on his hands as kimi did against Massa.

Massa's problem has never been his pace. It's his massive inconsistency, dips in form, and lack of confidence. Although, it's probably also a fair bit to do with the tyres, which don't/didn't suit his style either.

I actually think kimi and alonso are extremely similar drivers - both top tier in terms of speed (but maybe not quite the fastest), but also drive intelligently and consistently, and almost always make the right judgement calls (not just about when to change to inters, but in terms of all aspects of race-craft).


Massa couldn't match Alonso in the start of the season, simply couldn't. The car was a dog and very difficult to drive and Massa is not good enough at adapting. And the tyres? Look at Alonso 2005 and 2006, his cornering style was extremely agressive. But he adapted in a great manner to the Pirelli's.

But I agree - Massa shouldn't be used as a reference. Alonso's performances compared to the car capabilities during the last 3 years is what edges it out for me.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:29 pm 
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Yes, worth it. Alonso in other teams would have done more damage to Ferrari than Kimi to be honest.
I like kimi, but teams like Ferrari and McLaren these days have different expectations from their drivers than what Kimi has to offer.
Modern McLaren is not the McLaren of early 2000s. And same with Ferrari.
Kimi would not fit in there. He is where he can be right now and seems to work for both parties. This is how it was meant to be.
All Ferrari fans will forever be happy with the WDC which Kimi got for the team, but Alonso and Ferrari are the pair they both want to be.

In the end, what would any other driver have done in last 3 years at Ferrari? Even top drivers like Kimi cant do fairy cakes if car is not good or good enough. We saw that in 2009.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:51 pm 
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F1yer wrote:
Kimi is not interested in beating the teammate for the sake of it. Thats what makes him so unpolitical

That's utter bollox. Every driver first and foremost wants to (dare I say NEEDS to these days) beat the guy in the other car. Kimi is no different.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:58 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
F1yer wrote:
Kimi is not interested in beating the teammate for the sake of it. Thats what makes him so unpolitical

That's utter bollox. Every driver first and foremost wants to (dare I say NEEDS to these days) beat the guy in the other car. Kimi is no different.


However with Alonso he demands a number one driver policy. Even if Massa could challenge Alonso earlier in season he would not be allowed. Ferrari insure Massa cannot challenge Alonso at the start of a given season, if he did consistently all hell would break lose again, Ferrari won't allow that to happen and only let Massa go for it later in the season.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:58 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
F1yer wrote:
Kimi is not interested in beating the teammate for the sake of it. Thats what makes him so unpolitical

That's utter bollox. Every driver first and foremost wants to (dare I say NEEDS to these days) beat the guy in the other car. Kimi is no different.


Both are typing utter bollocks.

Kimi don't care about his team mate. He have said it in numerous interviews.

That makes him so good.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:19 pm 
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funkymonkey wrote:
Yes, worth it. Alonso in other teams would have done more damage to Ferrari than Kimi to be honest.
I like kimi, but teams like Ferrari and McLaren these days have different expectations from their drivers than what Kimi has to offer.
Modern McLaren is not the McLaren of early 2000s. And same with Ferrari.
Kimi would not fit in there. He is where he can be right now and seems to work for both parties. This is how it was meant to be.
All Ferrari fans will forever be happy with the WDC which Kimi got for the team, but Alonso and Ferrari are the pair they both want to be.

In the end, what would any other driver have done in last 3 years at Ferrari? Even top drivers like Kimi cant do fairy cakes if car is not good or good enough. We saw that in 2009.

hmmm but Kimi did win in 2009... even when they decided very early into the season not to further develop the car...

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:27 pm 
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Red bull has only been the prime force for 3 years, remove them from the equation before making comparisons between drivers.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:38 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
iceman_fan90 wrote:
You have to appreciate the poetic justice in the "lazy, unmotivated, party animal, failing to help develop the car" Finn being the last driver to give Ferrari a world championship in half a decade. What disgusted me even more than Ferrari buying Kimi's contract out was the way in which they tried to drag his name through the mud before he left the team. It was a display of complete disrespect to the driver than won them the championship. I hope that Santander money was worth it. I think that Santander money is cursed and I doubt Ferrari wins a championship while Alonso and Santander are at the team.

It appeared to me that Kimi was only happy to take the money. He didn't have to you know, he could have sorted out a top drive elsewhere on the grid.

why should he let another team pick up the tab for Ferrari wanting to get out of a contract? He could take it and go elsewhere to enjoy the millions until his "contractually imposed sabbatical" lapsed and which is what he has done. I'd say this is the best thing he has done for himself. His name was already dragged through the mud, so why not take a breather since he was offered a severance package that was very very sweet.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:46 pm 
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Jomox wrote:
mcdo wrote:
F1yer wrote:
Kimi is not interested in beating the teammate for the sake of it. Thats what makes him so unpolitical

That's utter bollox. Every driver first and foremost wants to (dare I say NEEDS to these days) beat the guy in the other car. Kimi is no different.


However with Alonso he demands a number one driver policy. Even if Massa could challenge Alonso earlier in season he would not be allowed. Ferrari insure Massa cannot challenge Alonso at the start of a given season, if he did consistently all hell would break lose again, Ferrari won't allow that to happen and only let Massa go for it later in the season.

I think you better take a look back at 2010.

First 7 races:
Code:
Fernando Alonso 1 4 13 4 2 6 8
Felipe Massa    2 3  7 9 6 4 7

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:53 pm 
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SwSpeed wrote:
mcdo wrote:
F1yer wrote:
Kimi is not interested in beating the teammate for the sake of it. Thats what makes him so unpolitical

That's utter bollox. Every driver first and foremost wants to (dare I say NEEDS to these days) beat the guy in the other car. Kimi is no different.


Both are typing utter bollocks.

Kimi don't care about his team mate. He have said it in numerous interviews.

That makes him so good.

Of course he does, don't be so naive. If Romain consistently beat him out on track it would eat him up inside (and he would probably lose his seat also, seems to be the nature of modern F1).
When Massa got the upper hand in 2008 Kimi started overdriving. Started to get intimate with a few walls. In F1 you have to beat your teammate before you can think about beating anyone else.

And if he says he doesn't care about beating his teammate in an interview, does it not make you wonder why people call his dedication into question?

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:02 pm 
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Jinx wrote:
mcdo wrote:
iceman_fan90 wrote:
You have to appreciate the poetic justice in the "lazy, unmotivated, party animal, failing to help develop the car" Finn being the last driver to give Ferrari a world championship in half a decade. What disgusted me even more than Ferrari buying Kimi's contract out was the way in which they tried to drag his name through the mud before he left the team. It was a display of complete disrespect to the driver than won them the championship. I hope that Santander money was worth it. I think that Santander money is cursed and I doubt Ferrari wins a championship while Alonso and Santander are at the team.

It appeared to me that Kimi was only happy to take the money. He didn't have to you know, he could have sorted out a top drive elsewhere on the grid.

why should he let another team pick up the tab for Ferrari wanting to get out of a contract? He could take it and go elsewhere to enjoy the millions until his "contractually imposed sabbatical" lapsed and which is what he has done. I'd say this is the best thing he has done for himself. His name was already dragged through the mud, so why not take a breather since he was offered a severance package that was very very sweet.

So Kimi left F1 to save other teams from paying for his services? WHAA?!
"You know what Ron, I'd love to drive for you but I'll cost you too much. I'll just leave instead"

He took the money and ran. Simple as! He didn't have to.
Fair play to him, I would have too. But he's not this hero who had his career cut down by Ferrari while he was in his prime. He had other options, like not taking Ferrari's offer and driving for another team.
Ferrari dangled the carrot... and he bit.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:06 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
Jomox wrote:
mcdo wrote:
F1yer wrote:
Kimi is not interested in beating the teammate for the sake of it. Thats what makes him so unpolitical

That's utter bollox. Every driver first and foremost wants to (dare I say NEEDS to these days) beat the guy in the other car. Kimi is no different.


However with Alonso he demands a number one driver policy. Even if Massa could challenge Alonso earlier in season he would not be allowed. Ferrari insure Massa cannot challenge Alonso at the start of a given season, if he did consistently all hell would break lose again, Ferrari won't allow that to happen and only let Massa go for it later in the season.

I think you better take a look back at 2010.

First 7 races:
Code:
Fernando Alonso 1 4 13 4 2 6 8
Felipe Massa    2 3  7 9 6 4 7


so, first seven races and Massa was beating Alonso (4 out of 7). and then (on 11th race) we all know what happened. ...faster.... than.... you......

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:46 pm 
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Denorth wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Jomox wrote:
mcdo wrote:
F1yer wrote:



However with Alonso he demands a number one driver policy. Even if Massa could challenge Alonso earlier in season he would not be allowed. Ferrari insure Massa cannot challenge Alonso at the start of a given season, if he did consistently all hell would break lose again, Ferrari won't allow that to happen and only let Massa go for it later in the season.

I think you better take a look back at 2010.

First 7 races:
Code:
Fernando Alonso 1 4 13 4 2 6 8
Felipe Massa    2 3  7 9 6 4 7


so, first seven races and Massa was beating Alonso (4 out of 7). and then (on 11th race) we all know what happened. ...faster.... than.... you......

Massa was actually leading the WDC at one point in 2010! Then Alonso destroyed him with the pit lane overtake and Fernando is faster than you episodes. As you know, Massa never again finished in front of Alonso that year and his career was over.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:48 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
SwSpeed wrote:
mcdo wrote:
F1yer wrote:
Kimi is not interested in beating the teammate for the sake of it. Thats what makes him so unpolitical

That's utter bollox. Every driver first and foremost wants to (dare I say NEEDS to these days) beat the guy in the other car. Kimi is no different.


Both are typing utter bollocks.

Kimi don't care about his team mate. He have said it in numerous interviews.

That makes him so good.

Of course he does, don't be so naive. If Romain consistently beat him out on track it would eat him up inside (and he would probably lose his seat also, seems to be the nature of modern F1).
When Massa got the upper hand in 2008 Kimi started overdriving. Started to get intimate with a few walls. In F1 you have to beat your teammate before you can think about beating anyone else.

And if he says he doesn't care about beating his teammate in an interview, does it not make you wonder why people call his dedication into question?

:thumbup:

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:50 pm 
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Exactly, the only time he managed it, he got told to let Alonso past and then since then Massa has not been allowed to challenge Alonso, even this season when he could he had to yield (Albiet because of Alonso's title challenge) But if he challenges him again at start of season Ferrari won't let it happen because it's not the way Alonso has the team operating for him. The only time Massa did it was 2010 and then he got destroyed after the Alonso is faster then you etc.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:53 pm 
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Denorth wrote:
so, first seven races and Massa was beating Alonso (4 out of 7). and then (on 11th race) we all know what happened. ...faster.... than.... you......

Jomox wrote:
Exactly, the only time he managed it, he got told to let Alonso past and then since then Massa has not been allowed to challenge Alonso, even this season when he could he had to yield (Albiet because of Alonso's title challenge) But if he challenges him again at start of season Ferrari won't let it happen because it's not the way Alonso has the team operating for him. The only time Massa did it was 2010 and then he got destroyed after the Alonso is faster then you etc.

In the 3 races in between Alonso extended his points gap over Massa to the point where he was their only realistic hope at the WDC (as proven by the end of season results).

This shouldn't still be a difficult concept to grasp.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:57 pm 
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jammin78 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
SwSpeed wrote:
mcdo wrote:
F1yer wrote:
Kimi is not interested in beating the teammate for the sake of it. Thats what makes him so unpolitical

That's utter bollox. Every driver first and foremost wants to (dare I say NEEDS to these days) beat the guy in the other car. Kimi is no different.


Both are typing utter bollocks.

Kimi don't care about his team mate. He have said it in numerous interviews.

That makes him so good.

Of course he does, don't be so naive. If Romain consistently beat him out on track it would eat him up inside (and he would probably lose his seat also, seems to be the nature of modern F1).
When Massa got the upper hand in 2008 Kimi started overdriving. Started to get intimate with a few walls. In F1 you have to beat your teammate before you can think about beating anyone else.

And if he says he doesn't care about beating his teammate in an interview, does it not make you wonder why people call his dedication into question?

:thumbup:

I think you guys read way too much into random statements, specially Kimi's dismissive statements, all of which end with the subtext "I wish this interview were over, leave me alone".

I'm of the opinion that Kimi doesn't care as much about beating his teammate as some others do. It's even possible (gasp!) that he has a life he cares about outside of F1.

None of this means he is not focused when he is in the car. All this is speculation of course.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:59 pm 
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no it wasnt

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:01 pm 
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Iowa'sOnlyF1Viewer wrote:
jammin78 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
SwSpeed wrote:
mcdo wrote:
That's utter bollox. Every driver first and foremost wants to (dare I say NEEDS to these days) beat the guy in the other car. Kimi is no different.


Both are typing utter bollocks.

Kimi don't care about his team mate. He have said it in numerous interviews.

That makes him so good.

Of course he does, don't be so naive. If Romain consistently beat him out on track it would eat him up inside (and he would probably lose his seat also, seems to be the nature of modern F1).
When Massa got the upper hand in 2008 Kimi started overdriving. Started to get intimate with a few walls. In F1 you have to beat your teammate before you can think about beating anyone else.

And if he says he doesn't care about beating his teammate in an interview, does it not make you wonder why people call his dedication into question?

:thumbup:

I think you guys read way too much into random statements, specially Kimi's dismissive statements, all of which end with the subtext "I wish this interview were over, leave me alone".

I'm of the opinion that Kimi doesn't care as much about beating his teammate as some others do. It's even possible (gasp!) that he has a life he cares about outside of F1.

None of this means he is not focused when he is in the car. All this is speculation of course.

I don't think mcdo is saying Kimi isn't focused/dedicated... but comments such as "I don't care about beating my teammate" etc could very easily be misinterpreted as a lack of dedication/commitment/focus, as they always say the first person you need to beat is your team mate. I think Kimi's very dedicated after this year, but mcdo's right in saying is it any wonder why people question his dedication if he comes up with statements like that?

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:04 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
Denorth wrote:
so, first seven races and Massa was beating Alonso (4 out of 7). and then (on 11th race) we all know what happened. ...faster.... than.... you......

Jomox wrote:
Exactly, the only time he managed it, he got told to let Alonso past and then since then Massa has not been allowed to challenge Alonso, even this season when he could he had to yield (Albiet because of Alonso's title challenge) But if he challenges him again at start of season Ferrari won't let it happen because it's not the way Alonso has the team operating for him. The only time Massa did it was 2010 and then he got destroyed after the Alonso is faster then you etc.

In the 3 races in between Alonso extended his points gap over Massa to the point where he was their only realistic hope at the WDC (as proven by the end of season results).

A self fulfilling prophecy?
Alonso could have caused a double DNF with the pit lane overtake. He apparently changed his engine settings to appear faster - correct me if I am wrong - before the "faster than you" episode. Massa was mentally destroyed, mainly I think because his team was fully behind Alonso during these episodes. He never again finished in front of Alonso that year.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:14 pm 
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jammin78 wrote:

I don't think mcdo is saying Kimi isn't focused/dedicated... but comments such as "I don't care about beating my teammate" etc could very easily be misinterpreted as a lack of dedication/commitment/focus, as they always say the first person you need to beat is your team mate. I think Kimi's very dedicated after this year, but mcdo's right in saying is it any wonder why people question his dedication if he comes up with statements like that?
[/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote]
Could be misinterpreted, sure, as we sometimes even willfully do around here :-P
But Kimi press statements are not worth the paper they are printed on.
People looking for something to hang him will find plenty there.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:21 pm 
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Do you give Alonso the same benefit of the doubt for the questionable things that he says? Saying they aren't worth the paper they are printed on? It seems like it might be a bit selective.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:44 pm 
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Blake wrote:
Do you give Alonso the same benefit of the doubt for the questionable things that he says? Saying they aren't worth the paper they are printed on? It seems like it might be a bit selective.

Sure, why not. Sports journalism is the worst kind nowadays, and not just in F1. Context is everything. That said, I have been guilty of once calling Fred "Samurai Jack" (a cartoon character, for those not fond of obscure references). And you must admit, he seems to take greater care in choosing his words and presenting himself to the press. What he says means something, though again context is sometimes lacking in press reports.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:56 pm 
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Iowa'sOnlyF1Viewer wrote:
Alonso could have caused a double DNF with the pit lane overtake.


Yes, he COULD have caused a double DNF. And many others WOULD have caused an accident...The sign of true champions is to be on the limit of causing an accident...without actually causing it !!

For me, that overtaking was a master piece, others would think it wasn't the right thing to do...maybe I'm wrong, but I enjoy Formula 1 more than chess.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:05 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
Denorth wrote:
so, first seven races and Massa was beating Alonso (4 out of 7). and then (on 11th race) we all know what happened. ...faster.... than.... you......

Jomox wrote:
Exactly, the only time he managed it, he got told to let Alonso past and then since then Massa has not been allowed to challenge Alonso, even this season when he could he had to yield (Albiet because of Alonso's title challenge) But if he challenges him again at start of season Ferrari won't let it happen because it's not the way Alonso has the team operating for him. The only time Massa did it was 2010 and then he got destroyed after the Alonso is faster then you etc.

In the 3 races in between Alonso extended his points gap over Massa to the point where he was their only realistic hope at the WDC (as proven by the end of season results).

This shouldn't still be a difficult concept to grasp.


31 points in midseason equals 'only realistic hope'? I wouldn't put money on that.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:19 pm 
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jammin78 wrote:
I don't think mcdo is saying Kimi isn't focused/dedicated... but comments such as "I don't care about beating my teammate" etc could very easily be misinterpreted as a lack of dedication/commitment/focus, as they always say the first person you need to beat is your team mate. I think Kimi's very dedicated after this year, but mcdo's right in saying is it any wonder why people question his dedication if he comes up with statements like that?

:thumbup: Precisely

I quite like Kimi. He was greatly missed in 2010/2011.
He's been guilty of a couple of things, but lack of dedication is not one of them.

However I do see where people get that idea from.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:25 pm 
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Denorth wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Denorth wrote:
so, first seven races and Massa was beating Alonso (4 out of 7). and then (on 11th race) we all know what happened. ...faster.... than.... you......

Jomox wrote:
Exactly, the only time he managed it, he got told to let Alonso past and then since then Massa has not been allowed to challenge Alonso, even this season when he could he had to yield (Albiet because of Alonso's title challenge) But if he challenges him again at start of season Ferrari won't let it happen because it's not the way Alonso has the team operating for him. The only time Massa did it was 2010 and then he got destroyed after the Alonso is faster then you etc.

In the 3 races in between Alonso extended his points gap over Massa to the point where he was their only realistic hope at the WDC (as proven by the end of season results).

This shouldn't still be a difficult concept to grasp.


31 points in midseason equals 'only realistic hope'? I wouldn't put money on that.

Going into the German GP Fernando was 47 behind the leader. Felipe was 78 behind.
Felipe was mathematically still in it. But not realistically.
For a team that exists to win titles (regardless of if they achieve titles or not), it would have been madness to allow Massa take the German GP win.

And the end of season results prove they made the right choice.
And the 2011 results prove they made the right choice.
And the 2012 results prove they made the right choice.
And I'll bet the 2013 results will continue to prove they backed the right driver in Germany 2010.

edit: Got my numbers wrong. Correct now.

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Last edited by mcdo on Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:30 pm 
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Denorth wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Denorth wrote:
so, first seven races and Massa was beating Alonso (4 out of 7). and then (on 11th race) we all know what happened. ...faster.... than.... you......

Jomox wrote:
Exactly, the only time he managed it, he got told to let Alonso past and then since then Massa has not been allowed to challenge Alonso, even this season when he could he had to yield (Albiet because of Alonso's title challenge) But if he challenges him again at start of season Ferrari won't let it happen because it's not the way Alonso has the team operating for him. The only time Massa did it was 2010 and then he got destroyed after the Alonso is faster then you etc.

In the 3 races in between Alonso extended his points gap over Massa to the point where he was their only realistic hope at the WDC (as proven by the end of season results).

This shouldn't still be a difficult concept to grasp.


31 points in midseason equals 'only realistic hope'? I wouldn't put money on that.


Yes, it was the only realistic hope Ferrari had at WDC. Let's not forget there were not one, or two, but FOUR drivers ahead of Alonso at that time, even Alonso's chance seemed pretty slim at the time (that's why so many people considered it was outrageous). But if Alonso's chances were slim what can we say about Massa's? Non-existent.

Had the Ferrari drivers been leading the standings 1-2 I'm pretty sure no team order's would have been handed out. Given the circumstances it WAS their only realistic hope. I would think anyone would see this is pretty straightforward. Massa didn't stand a chance to make it to WDC, unless of course you get a freak scenario where the FIVE drivers in front of him in the standings start taking each other out or all of them suddenly start having mechanical issues etc. because I suppose you will agree Massa (prior to Germany) was not exactly driving masterclass was he?

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:32 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
jammin78 wrote:
I don't think mcdo is saying Kimi isn't focused/dedicated... but comments such as "I don't care about beating my teammate" etc could very easily be misinterpreted as a lack of dedication/commitment/focus, as they always say the first person you need to beat is your team mate. I think Kimi's very dedicated after this year, but mcdo's right in saying is it any wonder why people question his dedication if he comes up with statements like that?

:thumbup: Precisely

I quite like Kimi. He was greatly missed in 2010/2011.
He's been guilty of a couple of things, but lack of dedication is not one of them.

However I do see where people get that idea from.

yeah, I don't think he helps himself sometimes with his "I don't care" comments. I suspect - no proof before anyone asks - that he does actually care about at least some of the things but doesn't want to get drawn into discussing it. Saying "I don't care" wraps most of the interviews up sooner :]

I can't imagine any competitive driver not wanting to beat their team mate. Conversely, it must grate when your team mate has done better than you. I really can't see how you can be competitive and not care, tbh. Every top athlete must believe that they are the best, so being beaten by somebody else (in equal machinery, in F1's case) must provide some motivation to return the favour next time.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:33 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
Denorth wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Denorth wrote:
so, first seven races and Massa was beating Alonso (4 out of 7). and then (on 11th race) we all know what happened. ...faster.... than.... you......

Jomox wrote:
Exactly, the only time he managed it, he got told to let Alonso past and then since then Massa has not been allowed to challenge Alonso, even this season when he could he had to yield (Albiet because of Alonso's title challenge) But if he challenges him again at start of season Ferrari won't let it happen because it's not the way Alonso has the team operating for him. The only time Massa did it was 2010 and then he got destroyed after the Alonso is faster then you etc.

In the 3 races in between Alonso extended his points gap over Massa to the point where he was their only realistic hope at the WDC (as proven by the end of season results).

This shouldn't still be a difficult concept to grasp.


31 points in midseason equals 'only realistic hope'? I wouldn't put money on that.

Going into the German GP Fernando was 29 behind the leader. Felipe was 60 behind.
Felipe was mathematically still in it. But not realistically.
For a team that exists to win titles (regardless of if they achieve titles or not), it would have been madness to allow Massa take the German GP win.

And the end of season results prove they made the right choice.
And the 2011 results prove they made the right choice.
And the 2012 results prove they made the right choice.
And I'll bet the 2013 results will continue to prove they backed the right driver in Germany 2010.


I may be mistaken, but I think ALonso was 48 points behind Hamilton and 23 behind 4th place Vettel, with Button and Webber slotted in between those two.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:38 pm 
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Lotus38 wrote:
I may be mistaken, but I think ALonso was 48 points behind Hamilton and 23 behind 4th place Vettel, with Button and Webber slotted in between those two.

fairy cakes ya you're right. I took my numbers from post-Valencia rather than post-Silverstone.

47 points behind after Silverstone. That makes way more sense.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:51 pm 
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Ferrari and Alonso are a much better pairing than Ferrari and Kimi were.

However:
People always used to say that Alonso is a much better car developer than Kimi was and that Alonso would get Ferrari to become the best team/car once again.
In the 3 years that Alonso has been there he hasn't proved this.
The F10 (or whatever the 2010 car was called) was the best car that Fernando has had while at Ferrari, and that car was largely developed by Kimi.
I may not be remembering correctly, but I want to say that Ferrari starting developing the 2010 car (ie. stopped devolving the F2009) around Monaco.
Massa was injured, and couldn't drive, so all of the development was done by Kimi for the F10.
The 2011 car was ok, but RB dominated so we don't really know how good it was.
2012 was bad in the beginning, not so much slow but hard to drive, and became better throughout the season.

I think LdM was the main reason for Kimi's departure.
I can't imagine that they got along at all.
One Todt was gone, there was nobody at Ferrari who "understood" Kimi, so they turned toward Massa to become the No.1

I also think that when Kimi insulted LdM was when Luca decided he didn't want Kimi to succeed in the team anymore.*
LdM tried making Kimi look bad because Kimi hurt his feelings.
This is just my theory and cannot ever be proven of course.

*Here's the video where Kimi insulted LdM.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2WKdmbVmG0&t=4m23s

*Correspondent walks towards Kimi*
Kimi: Hey chocolate fudge cake off!
Correspondent: I know, but it's Montezemolo he wants to speak to you.
Kimi: Yeah but I'm doing this so I don't give... *pushes correspondent* chocolate fudge cake off now so I can finish this
Correspondent: What am I going to tell him?
Kimi: Tell him I'll come when I'm finished ... go!
Correspndent: Okay ... I'll tell him
Kimi: Yeah chocolate fudge cake off


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:54 pm 
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Well, it's difficult to say. I think Fernando is the better driver to have at Maranello, however, had they kept Kimi he would've either matched or bettered his achievements. Alonso was brought in to win titles, so far he's brought in none.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:55 pm 
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Jomox wrote:
So far it's been far from worth it:

1 WDC
1 WCC
vs
0 WDC
0 WCC

Please don't bring up the excuses as the simple facts are Kimi was far more successful at Ferrari than Alonso has been (Alonso's time at Ferrari is seen as a failure until he's won a title with them, drivers or constructors)

The number one driver policy and making Massa not compete and yield any time he's ahead of Alosno certainly has not helped them either.


but kimi had a very good ferrari for 07 and 08. alonso has had a decent ferrari since he joined in 2010?

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:58 pm 
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Iowa'sOnlyF1Viewer wrote:
Blake wrote:
Do you give Alonso the same benefit of the doubt for the questionable things that he says? Saying they aren't worth the paper they are printed on? It seems like it might be a bit selective.

Sure, why not. Sports journalism is the worst kind nowadays, and not just in F1. Context is everything. That said, I have been guilty of once calling Fred "Samurai Jack" (a cartoon character, for those not fond of obscure references). And you must admit, he seems to take greater care in choosing his words and presenting himself to the press. What he says means something, though again context is sometimes lacking in press reports.

Sorry Blake, can't post as fast as I want due to work place restrictions, but I would like to refine my position a bit.

The Lotus Kimi is more aware of his media presence and the effect it has on team sponsors. So, anything he says this year, I would pay attention to (but not whatever he says while being chased by journalists). I don't think he has said anything damaging this year.

Fernando is more particular about his media image, and I would pay attention to everything he has to say, with the same exception I mentioned above. He likes to "tweet" and not being a tweeter, I have to assume that he is control of his tweets and can edit them to his satisfaction. Whatever comes out of the tweet factory is an accurate reflection I would think.


Last edited by Iowa'sOnlyF1Viewer on Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:00 pm 
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Floppy_Boy wrote:
No, in my opinion, and I'll tell you why.

Since 2010, Ferrari have had all kinds of drama. First there was Germany 2010, and it caused an uproar. Is swapping cars around really that bad? Ultimately, probably not, and the fact they were fined a mere $100,000 possibly confirms that. But it ruins the show. Yes, maybe it is better for Alonso's championship challenge, but I think many feel it was still a little too early. Like Austria 2002. What would have been much better for Alonso's championship challenge is not jumping the start at China, or not crashing the car in FP3 at Monaco, or giving the position straight back to Kubica at Silverstone. But Ferrari and Alonso dragged it out to Abu Dhabi, only to catch themselves out.

Then Ferrari had a relatively subdued season in 2011. One win at Silverstone, thanks to a somewhat odd sets of rules that weekend, and more consistent driving from Alonso.

And of course, there was 2012. Ferrari, to their credit, brilliantly turning their season around from pre-season testing to lead the WDC. Of course, Alonso's part in this should also be noted, as he was the standout driver along with Vettel all year. Things were good when they were out in front. But then, when it started to slip away from Ferrari, partly due to a series of unfortunate events, and partly due to Red Bull and Vettel striking when it mattered most, things began to get uglier. Some would call it petty remarks, discrediting his rival, others would call it gamesmanship. All through the summer, Alonso had been hailed, and Ferrari praised for their strategies, and execution and maximisation of races. But then, it was no longer just the driver catching Alonso, it was their brilliant technical director too. There was Austin, with what some would call brilliant, and with what others would call underhand. And finally, there was Brazil. Some would give Ferrari the benefit of the doubt, and others still would say it was a ploy, driven by Alonso, to try and smear and discredit the job done by Red Bull and Vettel.

That was Ferrari with Alonso. Two very near misses in 3 years, with the driver many regard as the most complete for several years now. Although it is impossible to know what Räikkönen could have achieved in the same three years, of Räikkönen we do know this. He is quiet, he gets his head down, and he does what he does best. For all the talk and rumours in 2009 about being unmotivated, being matched by Massa, and not delivering his on his enormous potential, he has returned in 2012, after two years away, and instantly reaffirmed himself as one of the very best. Many people at Lotus say he is highly motivated, we know Massa can match Alonso, from 2010 and the latter races of 2012, and to finish 3rd in the WDC on your return displays the potential Räikkönen has in abundance. Whilst much can change in three years, and in particular in Formula One, 2009 Räikkönen does seem to add up.

And so with Räikkönen, Ferrari could have got on with the job in hand. Winning titles. Except the one thing all the dramas since 2010 have obscured. The one thing that would have been highlighted quickly with Räikkönen's no nonsense attitude. The one thing that has truly stopped Ferrari from winning.

The car.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:04 pm 
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diablof1 wrote:

:lol: :lol: :lol:
Care to elaborate? Image


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