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replacing raikkonen with fernando worth it?
yes 41%  41%  [ 104 ]
no 59%  59%  [ 148 ]
Total votes : 252
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:05 pm 
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Toby. wrote:
Raikkonen would have won no more titles than Fernando has done during his tenure at Ferrari. I believe Alonso is better at adapting to a car that doesn't perfectly suit his needs, so I dare say the Spaniard has won more races and scored more podiums than Kimi probably would have in the past 3 years.


:thumbup:

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:10 pm 
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Porsan wrote:
Iowa'sOnlyF1Viewer wrote:
Alonso could have caused a double DNF with the pit lane overtake.


Yes, he COULD have caused a double DNF. And many others WOULD have caused an accident...The sign of true champions is to be on the limit of causing an accident...without actually causing it !!

For me, that overtaking was a master piece, others would think it wasn't the right thing to do...maybe I'm wrong, but I enjoy Formula 1 more than chess.

As a Massa fan, it is my duty to point out that he was a willing participant in that masterly event. He ran wide to avoid a clash and then radioed the pits so they could get the right tires for Fernando.

I don't have blinkers on for my favorite driver. I can accept his inadequacies. And so I have no problem pointing out to others that there is no need to spin events to support theirs.

However, there is no doubt, coming back to the OP, that from my point of view, it has been a dismal couple of years. Kimi-Massa was a party, and I didn't mind if Kimi won (in fact cheered wildly when he won his WDC). I was so depressed the last couple of years I almost stopped posting completely (not that I post like some of you guys anyway). Fernando's presence has been bad for my favorite driver, but I can accept that he provides the leadership the team lacks under Stefano.

The original post could be reworded to ask, was Todt-Kimi a better choice than Stefano-Alonso


Last edited by Iowa'sOnlyF1Viewer on Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:11 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
SwSpeed wrote:
mcdo wrote:
F1yer wrote:
Kimi is not interested in beating the teammate for the sake of it. Thats what makes him so unpolitical

That's utter bollox. Every driver first and foremost wants to (dare I say NEEDS to these days) beat the guy in the other car. Kimi is no different.


Both are typing utter bollocks.

Kimi don't care about his team mate. He have said it in numerous interviews.

That makes him so good.

Of course he does, don't be so naive. If Romain consistently beat him out on track it would eat him up inside (and he would probably lose his seat also, seems to be the nature of modern F1).
When Massa got the upper hand in 2008 Kimi started overdriving. Started to get intimate with a few walls. In F1 you have to beat your teammate before you can think about beating anyone else.

And if he says he doesn't care about beating his teammate in an interview, does it not make you wonder why people call his dedication into question?


You still don't get it... Well I don't care ;)

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:15 pm 
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bourbon19 wrote:
Ferrari should have kept Kimi through the end of his contract. They screwed him over - just as they did Alain. As a avid fan of both, I personally lived through that pain - and the pain of both being completely out of F1 afterward. Alain and Kimi are over it, I'm getting there, lol.

In short, Ferrari's decision was unacceptable. But the reasons don't really concern Alonso - it wouldn't matter who they had brought in, it would be the same - poor behavior on Ferrari's part for when and how they did it.


alain was not screwed over i think. they got fed up of him complaining about the car. he referred to the car at one stage as a "truck" :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:17 pm 
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Muzzyf1 wrote:
Fernando was worth it . Never was a fan of him till he joined ferrari .the man haa heart and soul unlike raikonen who allways seemed distant from media fans side of things.

It doesn't matter if he doenst win as he showed that driving with your heart on your sleeve with passion and nearly clinching the championship in a car he shouldnt have ... well that makes me happy and proud to be able to watch such a great driver do his thing.


this :thumbup:

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:27 pm 
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jammin78 wrote:
Yes, I think it is. I don't think Kimi fit in with Ferrari very well, whereas Fernando is great for them. If Fernando had gone to Ferrari instead of Kimi in 07, I reckon we'd of seen Fernando the 05, 06, 07, and 08 champion. Since 08 though, Ferrari hasn't had as good a car. I'd say 2010 was the best car since then, and Fernando almost won the title in that year.

The weak link is most definately the car, whereas Fernando is the strongest link in Ferrari I'd say. He make Massa look average, Kimi made Massa look world class, like Championship material. Kimi is an exceptional driver, but I'd say Fernando is several degress better.


nail on head :thumbup: :thumbup:

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:37 pm 
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diablof1 wrote:
Floppy_Boy wrote:
No, in my opinion, and I'll tell you why.

Since 2010, Ferrari have had all kinds of drama. First there was Germany 2010, and it caused an uproar. Is swapping cars around really that bad? Ultimately, probably not, and the fact they were fined a mere $100,000 possibly confirms that. But it ruins the show. Yes, maybe it is better for Alonso's championship challenge, but I think many feel it was still a little too early. Like Austria 2002. What would have been much better for Alonso's championship challenge is not jumping the start at China, or not crashing the car in FP3 at Monaco, or giving the position straight back to Kubica at Silverstone. But Ferrari and Alonso dragged it out to Abu Dhabi, only to catch themselves out.

Then Ferrari had a relatively subdued season in 2011. One win at Silverstone, thanks to a somewhat odd sets of rules that weekend, and more consistent driving from Alonso.

And of course, there was 2012. Ferrari, to their credit, brilliantly turning their season around from pre-season testing to lead the WDC. Of course, Alonso's part in this should also be noted, as he was the standout driver along with Vettel all year. Things were good when they were out in front. But then, when it started to slip away from Ferrari, partly due to a series of unfortunate events, and partly due to Red Bull and Vettel striking when it mattered most, things began to get uglier. Some would call it petty remarks, discrediting his rival, others would call it gamesmanship. All through the summer, Alonso had been hailed, and Ferrari praised for their strategies, and execution and maximisation of races. But then, it was no longer just the driver catching Alonso, it was their brilliant technical director too. There was Austin, with what some would call brilliant, and with what others would call underhand. And finally, there was Brazil. Some would give Ferrari the benefit of the doubt, and others still would say it was a ploy, driven by Alonso, to try and smear and discredit the job done by Red Bull and Vettel.

That was Ferrari with Alonso. Two very near misses in 3 years, with the driver many regard as the most complete for several years now. Although it is impossible to know what Räikkönen could have achieved in the same three years, of Räikkönen we do know this. He is quiet, he gets his head down, and he does what he does best. For all the talk and rumours in 2009 about being unmotivated, being matched by Massa, and not delivering his on his enormous potential, he has returned in 2012, after two years away, and instantly reaffirmed himself as one of the very best. Many people at Lotus say he is highly motivated, we know Massa can match Alonso, from 2010 and the latter races of 2012, and to finish 3rd in the WDC on your return displays the potential Räikkönen has in abundance. Whilst much can change in three years, and in particular in Formula One, 2009 Räikkönen does seem to add up.

And so with Räikkönen, Ferrari could have got on with the job in hand. Winning titles. Except the one thing all the dramas since 2010 have obscured. The one thing that would have been highlighted quickly with Räikkönen's no nonsense attitude. The one thing that has truly stopped Ferrari from winning.

The car.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

Quote: wrote:
The Lotus Renault boss claimed, “In terms of motivation from what I have seen and spoken to him, he is probably as motivated as ever.

From http://www.formula1planet.com/2011/12/l ... l-perform/

Courtesy of mcdo:
First 7 races:
Code:
Fernando Alonso 1 4 13 4 2 6 8
Felipe Massa    2 3  7 9 6 4 7

And in the last four races, Massa outqualfied Alonso twice, qualified two places behind him once, and right behind him once. In the last two races, he finished one place behind him.


Last edited by Floppy_Boy on Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:37 pm 
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,....


Last edited by Jomox on Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:38 pm 
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Removed duplicate post.


Last edited by Floppy_Boy on Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:38 pm 
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Arr so people are making up conspiracies now that Alonso would of won so and so titles and Kimi would of won none. We could say the opposite way round, it's impossible to say what would of happened, all we do know is Kimi's time at Ferrari has been a much higher success than Alonso's, due to several reasons already talked about in this thread. It's easy to blame the car, but in a motorsports team there is a number of other key factors which play a massive role in the success of winning titles, the Alonso factor certainty has not helped them win any titles so far.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:40 pm 
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Jomox wrote:
Arr so people are making up conspiracies now that Alonso would of won so and so titles and Kimi would of won none. We could say the opposite way round, it's impossible to say what would of happened, all we do know is Kimi's time at Ferrari has been a much higher success than Alonso's,


I'd say they've been pretty even in Alonso's defence, 9 wins each from 3 seasons.

Sure Kimi got the title and Alonso didn't but that's not the only thing to consider.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:42 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
F1yer wrote:
Kimi is not interested in beating the teammate for the sake of it. Thats what makes him so unpolitical

That's utter bollox. Every driver first and foremost wants to (dare I say NEEDS to these days) beat the guy in the other car. Kimi is no different.


:lol: :lol: :lol: kimi is not interested in beating his teamate.... is it not a golden rule in f1 "first you have to beat your teammate" some of the kimi fanboys/girls are :uhoh:

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:45 pm 
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Jomox wrote:
Arr so people are making up conspiracies now that Alonso would of won so and so titles and Kimi would of won none. We could say the opposite way round, it's impossible to say what would of happened, all we do know is Kimi's time at Ferrari has been a much higher success than Alonso's, due to several reasons already talked about in this thread. It's easy to blame the car, but in a motorsports team there is a number of other key factors which play a massive role in the success of winning titles, the Alonso factor certainty has not helped them win any titles so far.


Just ignore that is just bad loser attitude. :)
Champs are won by winning not losing, and hey that wil also work with Hamilton.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:47 pm 
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diablof1 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
F1yer wrote:
Kimi is not interested in beating the teammate for the sake of it. Thats what makes him so unpolitical

That's utter bollox. Every driver first and foremost wants to (dare I say NEEDS to these days) beat the guy in the other car. Kimi is no different.


:lol: :lol: :lol: kimi is not interested in beating his teamate.... is it not a golden rule in f1 "first you have to beat your teammate" some of the kimi fanboys/girls are :uhoh:

In your short time of being a member on this forum I have yet to find a quality post from you.
But yet you criticize others openly and deliberately.
Opinions are just that.
Why can't you accept that not everyone thinks like you do? :uhoh:

Obviously Kimi wants to beat his teammate, but what F1yer was implying is that Kimi won't go out of his way to do so (ie. establishing No.1 status, demanding team orders, etc.).
Kimi only wants to beat his teammate on the track up front, not by playing games.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:58 pm 
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xECKSx58 wrote:
diablof1 wrote:

:lol: :lol: :lol:
Care to elaborate? Image


so he matched fonzo in 2010 first 7 races i think? and the final 3 races of 2012 but what about the rest of the races from 2010 until 2012???

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:02 pm 
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xECKSx58 wrote:
diablof1 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
F1yer wrote:
Kimi is not interested in beating the teammate for the sake of it. Thats what makes him so unpolitical

That's utter bollox. Every driver first and foremost wants to (dare I say NEEDS to these days) beat the guy in the other car. Kimi is no different.


:lol: :lol: :lol: kimi is not interested in beating his teamate.... is it not a golden rule in f1 "first you have to beat your teammate" some of the kimi fanboys/girls are :uhoh:

In your short time of being a member on this forum I have yet to find a quality post from you.
But yet you criticize others openly and deliberately.
Opinions are just that.
Why can't you accept that not everyone thinks like you do? :uhoh:

Obviously Kimi wants to beat his teammate, but what F1yer was implying is that Kimi won't go out of his way to do so (ie. establishing No.1 status, demanding team orders, etc.).
Kimi only wants to beat his teammate on the track up front, not by playing games.


come on mate just because some of the answers kimi fans gave made me laugh, you did not have to go that low about the posts. :uhoh:

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:10 pm 
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xECKSx58 wrote:
diablof1 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
F1yer wrote:
Kimi is not interested in beating the teammate for the sake of it. Thats what makes him so unpolitical

That's utter bollox. Every driver first and foremost wants to (dare I say NEEDS to these days) beat the guy in the other car. Kimi is no different.


:lol: :lol: :lol: kimi is not interested in beating his teamate.... is it not a golden rule in f1 "first you have to beat your teammate" some of the kimi fanboys/girls are :uhoh:

In your short time of being a member on this forum I have yet to find a quality post from you.
But yet you criticize others openly and deliberately.
Opinions are just that.
Why can't you accept that not everyone thinks like you do?
:uhoh:

Obviously Kimi wants to beat his teammate, but what F1yer was implying is that Kimi won't go out of his way to do so (ie. establishing No.1 status, demanding team orders, etc.).
Kimi only wants to beat his teammate on the track up front, not by playing games.


but i have not criticized. in topics i have contributed i gave my opinion and some people felt it was not good but i did not say to them how dare you question my opinion? for e.g the vettel and alonso thread.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:10 pm 
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diablof1 wrote:
xECKSx58 wrote:
diablof1 wrote:

:lol: :lol: :lol:
Care to elaborate? Image


so he matched fonzo in 2010 first 7 races i think? and the final 3 races of 2012 but what about the rest of the races from 2010 until 2012???

Yes, which is exactly what I said. I never said anything about being able to compete with Alonso the rest of the time, because he hasn't. But he obviously can, on occasion.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:27 pm 
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Floppy_Boy wrote:
diablof1 wrote:
xECKSx58 wrote:
diablof1 wrote:

:lol: :lol: :lol:
Care to elaborate? Image


so he matched fonzo in 2010 first 7 races i think? and the final 3 races of 2012 but what about the rest of the races from 2010 until 2012???

Yes, which is exactly what I said. I never said anything about being able to compete with Alonso the rest of the time, because he hasn't. But he obviously can, on occasion.


ok :thumbup:

but is that not a point? where as massa matched alonso on occasions kimi and massa were evenly matched throughout kimi's time with ferrari? so ferrari went for alonso.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:28 pm 
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diablof1 wrote:
Jomox wrote:
So far it's been far from worth it:

1 WDC
1 WCC
vs
0 WDC
0 WCC

Please don't bring up the excuses as the simple facts are Kimi was far more successful at Ferrari than Alonso has been (Alonso's time at Ferrari is seen as a failure until he's won a title with them, drivers or constructors)

The number one driver policy and making Massa not compete and yield any time he's ahead of Alosno certainly has not helped them either.


but kimi had a very good ferrari for 07 and 08. alonso has had a decent ferrari since he joined in 2010?



Ferrari 2010 was especially built for him. They even gave up (how many teams 'fighting for title' did this recently?) any developing of 2009 car. And Alonso was famously named a driver who develops the car.

Anyway. in terms of putting money on WDC. while Alonso always look like a good bet he has been 'always a bridesmaid, never a bride' since 2006. He is always (well almost) fighting at the top. Always praised for his achievements, while any other driver being 3rd or 4th in WDC standings is considered as a complete loser. Interesting how many people lost money they put on Fernando's 3rd title? I have little doubts that he would get it at some point, but he is like Hamilton right now - everyone says: 'must have another title'. When? no one would give an answer. and time is flying and RBR has a good car to start evolution for 2013 and Ferrari doesn't. And 2014... no one knows. it is always tricky. and last time of big changes Ferrari didn't do particularly well (2009)

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:37 pm 
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Denorth wrote:
diablof1 wrote:
Jomox wrote:
So far it's been far from worth it:

1 WDC
1 WCC
vs
0 WDC
0 WCC

Please don't bring up the excuses as the simple facts are Kimi was far more successful at Ferrari than Alonso has been (Alonso's time at Ferrari is seen as a failure until he's won a title with them, drivers or constructors)

The number one driver policy and making Massa not compete and yield any time he's ahead of Alosno certainly has not helped them either.


but kimi had a very good ferrari for 07 and 08. alonso has had a decent ferrari since he joined in 2010?



Ferrari 2010 was especially built for him. They even gave up (how many teams 'fighting for title' did this recently?) any developing of 2009 car. And Alonso was famously named a driver who develops the car.

Anyway. in terms of putting money on WDC. while Alonso always look like a good bet he has been 'always a bridesmaid, never a bride' since 2006. He is always (well almost) fighting at the top. Always praised for his achievements, while any other driver being 3rd or 4th in WDC standings is considered as a complete loser. Interesting how many people lost money they put on Fernando's 3rd title? I have little doubts that he would get it at some point, but he is like Hamilton right now - everyone says: 'must have another title'. When? no one would give an answer. and time is flying and RBR has a good car to start evolution for 2013 and Ferrari doesn't. And 2014... no one knows. it is always tricky. and last time of big changes Ferrari didn't do particularly well (2009)


Yeah, that is the funny part of this. "De la godfather" said openly in 2009 that Ferrari needs a driver who can develop the car. Well... Here we are and the dumbest of it all that they totally forgot they were a 2 driver team ignorant of the other guy who is supposed to take away points from the competition.

The lastest I read was that "De la Godfather" now "demands" a better car for Alonso... It is just a circus the whole thing. :)

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:38 pm 
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anyone wants some popcorn?

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:39 pm 
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diablof1 wrote:
xECKSx58 wrote:
diablof1 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
F1yer wrote:
Kimi is not interested in beating the teammate for the sake of it. Thats what makes him so unpolitical

That's utter bollox. Every driver first and foremost wants to (dare I say NEEDS to these days) beat the guy in the other car. Kimi is no different.


:lol: :lol: :lol: kimi is not interested in beating his teamate.... is it not a golden rule in f1 "first you have to beat your teammate" some of the kimi fanboys/girls are :uhoh:

In your short time of being a member on this forum I have yet to find a quality post from you.
But yet you criticize others openly and deliberately.
Opinions are just that.
Why can't you accept that not everyone thinks like you do? :uhoh:

Obviously Kimi wants to beat his teammate, but what F1yer was implying is that Kimi won't go out of his way to do so (ie. establishing No.1 status, demanding team orders, etc.).
Kimi only wants to beat his teammate on the track up front, not by playing games.


come on mate just because some of the answers kimi fans gave made me laugh, you did not have to go that low about the posts. :uhoh:

Fair enough


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:42 pm 
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Denorth wrote:
diablof1 wrote:
Jomox wrote:
So far it's been far from worth it:

1 WDC
1 WCC
vs
0 WDC
0 WCC

Please don't bring up the excuses as the simple facts are Kimi was far more successful at Ferrari than Alonso has been (Alonso's time at Ferrari is seen as a failure until he's won a title with them, drivers or constructors)

The number one driver policy and making Massa not compete and yield any time he's ahead of Alosno certainly has not helped them either.


but kimi had a very good ferrari for 07 and 08. alonso has had a decent ferrari since he joined in 2010?



Ferrari 2010 was especially built for him. They even gave up (how many teams 'fighting for title' did this recently?) any developing of 2009 car. And Alonso was famously named a driver who develops the car.

Anyway. in terms of putting money on WDC. while Alonso always look like a good bet he has been 'always a bridesmaid, never a bride' since 2006. He is always (well almost) fighting at the top. Always praised for his achievements, while any other driver being 3rd or 4th in WDC standings is considered as a complete loser. Interesting how many people lost money they put on Fernando's 3rd title? I have little doubts that he would get it at some point, but he is like Hamilton right now - everyone says: 'must have another title'. When? no one would give an answer. and time is flying and RBR has a good car to start evolution for 2013 and Ferrari doesn't. And 2014... no one knows. it is always tricky. and last time of big changes Ferrari didn't do particularly well (2009)


:lol:

but is it not a sign of a great driver to be in the hunt of the wdc 3 times in 6 years?! but i do agree with you as each year passes without 3rd title fonzo must be feeling the heat.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:51 pm 
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diablof1 wrote:
:lol:

but is it not a sign of a great driver to be in the hunt of the wdc 3 times in 6 years?! but i do agree with you as each year passes without 3rd title fonzo must be feeling the heat.



that's the thing that puzzles me - I agree with you that it is a sign of a (not sure about great, but..) outstanding achievements. However, why is it used for some drivers only (Fernando, Lewis) and others smeared with dirt unless they have WDC?


Coming back to the OP
statistics is cruel and Ferrari had
1 WDC and 2 WCC with Kimi/Massa team
and
'double 0' with Alonso/Massa (3 years for each team). Definitely less money from TV rights. Not good for their legacy they love to talk about.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:56 pm 
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Centauri wrote:
Sure it is. Alonso is arguably the best driver in the sport, and far more of a leader and a character, which is what Ferrari appear to favour.

Raikkonen was just another driver and became lost at Ferrari, and his motivation waned.


just another driver :]

who's the last world champ for Ferrari?


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kimisdabest wrote:
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anyone wants some popcorn?

salted for me, please :]


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:05 pm 
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diablof1 wrote:
Floppy_Boy wrote:
diablof1 wrote:
xECKSx58 wrote:
diablof1 wrote:

:lol: :lol: :lol:
Care to elaborate? Image


so he matched fonzo in 2010 first 7 races i think? and the final 3 races of 2012 but what about the rest of the races from 2010 until 2012???

Yes, which is exactly what I said. I never said anything about being able to compete with Alonso the rest of the time, because he hasn't. But he obviously can, on occasion.


ok :thumbup:

but is that not a point? where as massa matched alonso on occasions kimi and massa were evenly matched throughout kimi's time with ferrari? so ferrari went for alonso.

Yes. But as people have pointed out, the '07 and '08 Ferraris were better than the ones in the last three years. It's much easier to achieve better results in a better car, and in a better car there is less scope for being massively outperformed by your teammate. If Massa had a, lets say, average race in 2007 or 2008, he might finish 4th or 5th, whilst Räikkönen having a good race might finish 1st. Now, if Alonso has a good race, he can finish 2nd, and if Massa has a average race, he can finish 8th or 9th. The field is much tighter now. Which is why I think its inaccurate, and I'm very hesitant, to use Massa as a yardstick.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:12 pm 
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Denorth wrote:
Ferrari 2010 was especially built for him. They even gave up (how many teams 'fighting for title' did this recently?) any developing of 2009 car. And Alonso was famously named a driver who develops the car.

How was the 2010 Ferrari specially built for him when he was at Renault in 2009?

The ability of a driver to develop a car doesn't really exist anymore since the introduction of the testing ban.

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Last edited by mcdo on Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:12 pm 
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Denorth wrote:
diablof1 wrote:
:lol:

but is it not a sign of a great driver to be in the hunt of the wdc 3 times in 6 years?! but i do agree with you as each year passes without 3rd title fonzo must be feeling the heat.



that's the thing that puzzles me - I agree with you that it is a sign of a (not sure about great, but..) outstanding achievements. However, why is it used for some drivers only (Fernando, Lewis) and others smeared with dirt unless they have WDC?

Coming back to the OP
statistics is cruel and Ferrari had
1 WDC and 2 WCC with Kimi/Massa team
and
'double 0' with Alonso/Massa (3 years for each team). Definitely less money from TV rights. Not good for their legacy they love to talk about.


webber comes to mind.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:16 pm 
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so he matched fonzo in 2010 first 7 races i think? and the final 3 races of 2012 but what about the rest of the races from 2010 until 2012???[/quote]
Yes, which is exactly what I said. I never said anything about being able to compete with Alonso the rest of the time, because he hasn't. But he obviously can, on occasion.[/quote]

ok :thumbup:

but is that not a point? where as massa matched alonso on occasions kimi and massa were evenly matched throughout kimi's time with ferrari? so ferrari went for alonso.[/quote]
Yes. But as people have pointed out, the '07 and '08 Ferraris were better than the ones in the last three years. It's much easier to achieve better results in a better car, and in a better car there is less scope for being massively outperformed by your teammate. If Massa had a, lets say, average race in 2007 or 2008, he might finish 4th or 5th, whilst Räikkönen having a good race might finish 1st. Now, if Alonso has a good race, he can finish 2nd, and if Massa has a average race, he can finish 8th or 9th. The field is much tighter now. Which is why I think its inaccurate, and I'm very hesitant, to use Massa as a yardstick.[/quote]

good point about the difference between a good car and a average one.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:50 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
Denorth wrote:
Ferrari 2010 was especially built for him. They even gave up (how many teams 'fighting for title' did this recently?) any developing of 2009 car. And Alonso was famously named a driver who develops the car.

How was the 2010 Ferrari specially built for him when he was at Renault in 2009?

The ability of a driver to develop a car doesn't really exist anymore since the introduction of the testing ban.



essential reading for any Ferrari fan :) or anyone who makes such statements in general ;)

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2009/12/a ... rari-boss/

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2009/ap ... ormula-one

http://www.autoevolution.com/news/alons ... 15992.html

http://en.espnf1.com/ferrari/motorsport/story/9280.html (best car of his career )

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:52 pm 
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Of course they will say that, but let me see, 3 titles vs 0 speaks volumes in its self.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:57 pm 
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Denorth wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Denorth wrote:
Ferrari 2010 was especially built for him. They even gave up (how many teams 'fighting for title' did this recently?) any developing of 2009 car. And Alonso was famously named a driver who develops the car.

How was the 2010 Ferrari specially built for him when he was at Renault in 2009?

The ability of a driver to develop a car doesn't really exist anymore since the introduction of the testing ban.



essential reading for any Ferrari fan :) or anyone who makes such statements in general ;)

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2009/12/a ... rari-boss/

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2009/ap ... ormula-one

http://www.autoevolution.com/news/alons ... 15992.html

http://en.espnf1.com/ferrari/motorsport/story/9280.html (best car of his career )


Think you, remember reading those things then and now we are here. They really wanted to destroy Kimi as a race driver. :)

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:14 pm 
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well, it was good while it lasted :)

WDC -1; WCC -2 Well done.

Speaking of Fernando and Ferrari - they might have greater results in other years. and then the answer to this thread might be different.

so far - a lot of motivation talk, Ok result.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:36 pm 
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Denorth wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Denorth wrote:
Ferrari 2010 was especially built for him. They even gave up (how many teams 'fighting for title' did this recently?) any developing of 2009 car. And Alonso was famously named a driver who develops the car.

How was the 2010 Ferrari specially built for him when he was at Renault in 2009?

The ability of a driver to develop a car doesn't really exist anymore since the introduction of the testing ban.



essential reading for any Ferrari fan :) or anyone who makes such statements in general ;)

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2009/12/a ... rari-boss/

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2009/ap ... ormula-one

http://www.autoevolution.com/news/alons ... 15992.html

http://en.espnf1.com/ferrari/motorsport/story/9280.html (best car of his career )

:lol: What on earth have they got to do with my comments?

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:39 pm 
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Jomox wrote:
Of course they will say that, but let me see, 3 titles vs 0 speaks volumes in its self.

Ya I guess Gilles Villeneuve was never the driver that Jacques was either.

You can't take the numbers at face value, your statement is what a 6 year old would come out with.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:51 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
Denorth wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Denorth wrote:
Ferrari 2010 was especially built for him. They even gave up (how many teams 'fighting for title' did this recently?) any developing of 2009 car. And Alonso was famously named a driver who develops the car.

How was the 2010 Ferrari specially built for him when he was at Renault in 2009?

The ability of a driver to develop a car doesn't really exist anymore since the introduction of the testing ban.



essential reading for any Ferrari fan :) or anyone who makes such statements in general ;)

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2009/12/a ... rari-boss/

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2009/ap ... ormula-one

http://www.autoevolution.com/news/alons ... 15992.html

http://en.espnf1.com/ferrari/motorsport/story/9280.html (best car of his career )

:lol: What on earth have they got to do with my comments?



should I listen to forum member about role of the test driver or Stefano Dominicali who says opposite? (link N1)
some actual reading (I mean 'reading' as activity, process) would help ;)

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:47 pm 
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Denorth wrote:
should I listen to forum member about role of the test driver or Stefano Dominicali who says opposite? (link N1)
some actual reading (I mean 'reading' as activity, process) would help ;)

Oh forget it

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:12 am 
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Jomox wrote:
Exactly, the only time he managed it, he got told to let Alonso past and then since then Massa has not been allowed to challenge Alonso, even this season when he could he had to yield (Albiet because of Alonso's title challenge) But if he challenges him again at start of season Ferrari won't let it happen because it's not the way Alonso has the team operating for him. The only time Massa did it was 2010 and then he got destroyed after the Alonso is faster then you etc.


This is often overlooked in discussions about Alonso/Massa/Ferrari. Alonso and Ferrari have been basically conducting psychological warfare against Massa, they have tried to completely destroy his confidence by not allowing him to race. This is why Alonso always seems to come out and do one extra lap to beat Massa's time even in Free Practice, there is nothing to be gained in that situation other than destroying Massa's confidence. I would not be surprised if Alonso is doing his FP laps either on a lower fuel load then Massa or with the engine turned up to give the perception of being faster than Massa and destroying his confidence. Massa has shown time and again that given a chance to race he can be very competitive and right up there with the likes of Kimi and Lewis, it's disappointing to see that he has let himself become Alonso's lapdog. I hope he carries his form into next year and challenges Alonso, obviously Ferrari and Santander are not going to like it and do thier best to prevent it from happening but Massa should say eff it and go all out against Alonso.


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