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 Post subject: Vettel and Alonso
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:50 pm 
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Could Vettel and Alonso's rivalry be the new Senna Prost?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/20490565


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel and Alonso
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:00 pm 
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no my friend they are not. unless they both are in the same team and fight for the title 88 style, but me thinks alonso would destroy vettel in the same team. the closest we had of senna-prost was in 2007 hamilton vs alonso.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel and Alonso
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:14 pm 
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Despite their obvious rivalry, I do not think that there is the kind of personal animosity between Vettel & Alonso as that existed between Prost & Senna. Furthermore, the present regulations and atmosphere will not allow that kind of "coming to blows" clashes developing between drivers.

It is never possible to prejudge how a particular team or car would suit a particular driver and fans and/or crtitics might be very surprised. A good example was in 1990 when Prost joined Mansell at Ferrari. All the 'expert' opinions before the season predicted that in a similar car the charging style of Mansell would leave Prost very much in his wake. The reality however was very different - Prost won 5 races (and almost the championship) to Mansell's one.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel and Alonso
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:58 am 
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I think Alonso would destroy Vettel as well but I feel like I'm only saying that because the red bull is unbelievable. We'll never really know unless Ferrari gets their act together and produces a standout car. It would be great watching these two guys go head to head all weekend. 1-2 in qualifying and the races.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel and Alonso
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:25 am 
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Irrelevant to this but he got Vettel's tyre changes in Brazil the wrong way round, said he came in for intermediates then switched to slicks


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel and Alonso
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:09 am 
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Bentrovato wrote:
I think Alonso would destroy Vettel as well but I feel like I'm only saying that because the red bull is unbelievable. We'll never really know unless Ferrari gets their act together and produces a standout car. It would be great watching these two guys go head to head all weekend. 1-2 in qualifying and the races.


Well if either Macca or Red Bull had been able to match the consistency of the Ferrari, Hamilton and Vettel would have breezed to the championship.

If you want to watch spec head to head, there are series that cater to that. I prefer F1. F1 is not about drivers. It is about car + driver. It is a technology + human race among men. Macca engineers went after Red Bull and guess what? They kicked butt for a lot of the year in terms of speed. Ferrari kicked butt in consistency. So the tech wars were on. Vettel, Hamilton and Alonso were the human element, matched with the machines and trying to get the most out of them. There is no series like it - none as dynamic and wild (in my opinion), precisely because of all of the elements that come together and the car + driver dynamic.

Drivers get headlines, but in F1, so does the tech. You gotta love it. Well I do.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel and Alonso
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:39 am 
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I'm really wondering why people think Alonso would "destroy" Vettel.

Seriously, with Vettels qualifying skills, obvious speed at the front, and mental stability when it really matters, I honestly doubt Vettel wouldn't be able to make things very interesting.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel and Alonso
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:49 am 
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Bentrovato wrote:
I think Alonso would destroy Vettel as well but I feel like I'm only saying that because the red bull is unbelievable. We'll never really know unless Ferrari gets their act together and produces a standout car. It would be great watching these two guys go head to head all weekend. 1-2 in qualifying and the races.


I know one thing - there won't be any destroying. Whoever comes out on top in such a scenerio would do so with a small margin.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel and Alonso
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:17 am 
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mds wrote:
I'm really wondering why people think Alonso would "destroy" Vettel.

Seriously, with Vettels qualifying skills, obvious speed at the front, and mental stability when it really matters, I honestly doubt Vettel wouldn't be able to make things very interesting.


I think it would be more than interesting. Some of those "people" will be in for a big surprise.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel and Alonso
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:59 am 
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callMEcrazy wrote:

I know one thing - there won't be any destroying. Whoever comes out on top in such a scenerio would do so with a small margin.


:thumbup: :thumbup:

Common sense isn't common around here it seems.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel and Alonso
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:36 am 
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diablof1 wrote:
no my friend they are not. unless they both are in the same team and fight for the title 88 style, but me thinks alonso would destroy vettel in the same team. the closest we had of senna-prost was in 2007 hamilton vs alonso.


based on what ?!


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel and Alonso
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:48 am 
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If Vettel signed with Ferrari for the next season, probably Fernando would own him, just becaue Vettel is suited to a different type of car. In the long term they'll get even.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel and Alonso
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:38 pm 
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klauss wrote:
diablof1 wrote:
no my friend they are not. unless they both are in the same team and fight for the title 88 style, but me thinks alonso would destroy vettel in the same team. the closest we had of senna-prost was in 2007 hamilton vs alonso.


based on what ?!


its just a opinion. i could be 100% right or wrong. zekenwolf makes a interesting yet valid point about being surprised like the example he gave about prost/mansell. vettel has had the best car for 3 seasons and he just about won the championship in 2010 and 2012. hammy or alonso in that car they would have wrapped up the title more early and in a schumacher dominant way.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel and Alonso
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:42 pm 
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mds wrote:
I'm really wondering why people think Alonso would "destroy" Vettel.

Seriously, with Vettels qualifying skills, obvious speed at the front, and mental stability when it really matters, I honestly doubt Vettel wouldn't be able to make things very interesting.


thats true but what happened at the usa gp this season. lewis hunted down vettel lap after lap and got vettel. alonso would do the same. webber gave vettel big problems in 2010 and he is not even near alonso/hammy.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel and Alonso
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:47 pm 
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diablof1 wrote:
its just a opinion. i could be 100% right or wrong. zekenwolf makes a interesting yet valid point about being surprised like the example he gave about prost/mansell. vettel has had the best car for 3 seasons and he just about won the championship in 2010 and 2012. hammy or alonso in that car they would have wrapped up the title more early and in a schumacher dominant way.


We don't know that.
Personally, I reckon Hamilton would have a nervous breakdown because of pressure towards the end of the season and start crashing into Massa everytime he could. And Alonso would be too busy try to bully Webber into submission and would end up blocking him in the pits on a qualy lap (because Webber would probably dominate him in qualifying), only to end up getting fired at the end of the season.

Until we have two of these guys in the same car we won't know to be honest, no point making statements that hold absolutely no value other than for arguments sake.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel and Alonso
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:47 pm 
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diablof1 wrote:
mds wrote:
I'm really wondering why people think Alonso would "destroy" Vettel.

Seriously, with Vettels qualifying skills, obvious speed at the front, and mental stability when it really matters, I honestly doubt Vettel wouldn't be able to make things very interesting.


thats true but what happened at the usa gp this season. lewis hunted down vettel lap after lap and got vettel. alonso would do the same. webber gave vettel big problems in 2010 and he is not even near alonso/hammy.


And what would that mean, for you? Hamilton being better or the Mclaren having a slight edge? Or Vettel not being able to risk as much as Hamilton in order to get that win as there wasn't a WDC at stake for Hamilton?


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel and Alonso
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:57 pm 
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diablof1 wrote:
klauss wrote:
diablof1 wrote:
no my friend they are not. unless they both are in the same team and fight for the title 88 style, but me thinks alonso would destroy vettel in the same team. the closest we had of senna-prost was in 2007 hamilton vs alonso.


based on what ?!


its just a opinion. i could be 100% right or wrong. zekenwolf makes a interesting yet valid point about being surprised like the example he gave about prost/mansell. vettel has had the best car for 3 seasons and he just about won the championship in 2010 and 2012. hammy or alonso in that car they would have wrapped up the title more early and in a schumacher dominant way.

As you say it's just opinion, but I don't know about either of the other top three drivers being able to lock up either 2010, 2012 early.

Early in 2010 Vettel lost many points to reliability issues, some to his own growing pains as a driver as well, but he wouldn't have had to come from behind so much without mechanical problems in 3 of the first 5 races or so, and he was leading comfortably in Korea when his motor went boom.

Webber started out with four 4th places, and Vettel was going from podiums to mid points hauls at the start of this year, so it clearly wasn't the car to be in from the get go. Had McClaren had their act together in the first handful of races they could have had a healthy lead in both championships going into the break.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel and Alonso
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:57 pm 
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Myst wrote:
diablof1 wrote:
its just a opinion. i could be 100% right or wrong. zekenwolf makes a interesting yet valid point about being surprised like the example he gave about prost/mansell. vettel has had the best car for 3 seasons and he just about won the championship in 2010 and 2012. hammy or alonso in that car they would have wrapped up the title more early and in a schumacher dominant way.


We don't know that.
Personally, I reckon Hamilton would have a nervous breakdown because of pressure towards the end of the season and start crashing into Massa everytime he could. And Alonso would be too busy try to bully Webber into submission and would end up blocking him in the pits on a qualy lap (because Webber would probably dominate him in qualifying), only to end up getting fired at the end of the season.
Until we have two of these guys in the same car we won't know to be honest, no point making statements that hold absolutely no value other than for arguments sake.


:lol:

also if they were teamed together vettel would call alonso "crazy" when alonso keeps beating him. like he did to webber in 2010 turkey. ;)

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Last edited by diablof1 on Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel and Alonso
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:06 pm 
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mds wrote:
diablof1 wrote:
mds wrote:
I'm really wondering why people think Alonso would "destroy" Vettel.

Seriously, with Vettels qualifying skills, obvious speed at the front, and mental stability when it really matters, I honestly doubt Vettel wouldn't be able to make things very interesting.


thats true but what happened at the usa gp this season. lewis hunted down vettel lap after lap and got vettel. alonso would do the same. webber gave vettel big problems in 2010 and he is not even near alonso/hammy.


And what would that mean, for you? Hamilton being better or the Mclaren having a slight edge? Or Vettel not being able to risk as much as Hamilton in order to get that win as there wasn't a WDC at stake for Hamilton?


hamilton being better. alonso/hammy evenly matched. vettel no there yet. thats true vettel did not want to risk, but come on, he was in his usual position, he put it on pole, he made a good start. your trying to tell me he did not put everything he had for victory? this guy loves records. he gave it his all in that race like he always does, but lewis beat him 1on1.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel and Alonso
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:12 pm 
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diablof1 wrote:
your trying to tell me he did not put everything he had for victory?


I'm fairly sure that anyone with a WDC on the line will, consciously or subconsciously, factor in slightly bigger margins. He had to get that car to the finish, he had to keep that engine alive, not only there, but also in Brazil. That would be a factor.

And why would you not believe the Mclaren had just that edge over the RBR?

Anybody can obviously believe what they want, but to take Austin as an example of why Alonso would destroy Vettel is very, very far-fetched.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel and Alonso
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:16 pm 
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Yes Alonso did a great job in the car he was given. Whether Vettel or Hamilton could have done the same job in the same car this season is a question we cannot answer.

The fact that Lewis overtook Vettel in Austin does not answer this question.

The fact that Hamilton slightly beat Alonso in a different car 5 years ago does not answer this question.
The fact that Vettel has had a competitive car for three years does not necessarily mean he would fall apart in a less competitive car.

We do not know.

Anybody claiming that they would know that Alonso would thrash Vettel or vice versa might aswell just be saying:

"I like Alonso"

or

"I like Vettel"



They both did a good job with the cars they were given this year. That we do know.

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Last edited by gleichgültig on Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel and Alonso
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:17 pm 
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Alonso couldn't defeat Massa on merit after Massa re-signed his contract - not arguing that Massa is better but anyone who would "dominate" Vettel would surely not need team orders to beat Massa at the most critical time of the season. Vettel has matured quite a bit in the last few seasons - he's not the same kid he was in 2010.

Alonso is an exceptional fighter and relentless (pseudo-Senna-like) - aside from Korea 2011 when he gave up the fight for a podium (remember the "I give up, I give up" on the radio?), he fights until the very end of every race and seizes every opportunity. Vettel is very intelligent/calculated and well-prepared like Prost. He knows his car is significantly faster in clean air and that it has a low top speed so his best chance in a race is to start on pole and negate 2nd place's DRS early on and that's what he does. Just because he does that extremely well shouldn't belittle his driving abilities. The Red Bulls were neither the fastest cars this season nor the most reliable and the Ferrari lacked race pace half the season and struggled with qualifying so it's not the best comparison but the similarities are definitely there.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel and Alonso
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:25 pm 
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mds wrote:
diablof1 wrote:
your trying to tell me he did not put everything he had for victory?


I'm fairly sure that anyone with a WDC on the line will, consciously or subconsciously, factor in slightly bigger margins. He had to get that car to the finish, he had to keep that engine alive, not only there, but also in Brazil. That would be a factor.

And why would you not believe the Mclaren had just that edge over the RBR?

Anybody can obviously believe what they want, but to take Austin as an example of why Alonso would destroy Vettel is very, very far-fetched.


mclaren and red bull were evenly matched in that race. vettel got beaten fair and square. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel and Alonso
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:28 pm 
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mds wrote:
diablof1 wrote:
your trying to tell me he did not put everything he had for victory?


I'm fairly sure that anyone with a WDC on the line will, consciously or subconsciously, factor in slightly bigger margins. He had to get that car to the finish, he had to keep that engine alive, not only there, but also in Brazil. That would be a factor.

And why would you not believe the Mclaren had just that edge over the RBR?

Anybody can obviously believe what they want, but to take Austin as an example of why Alonso would destroy Vettel is very, very far-fetched.


because maybe the last couple of races before austin gp red bull were very dominant. so they kept that momentum into austin gp.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel and Alonso
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:31 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Vettel and Alonso
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:31 pm 
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diablof1 wrote:
mds wrote:
diablof1 wrote:
your trying to tell me he did not put everything he had for victory?


I'm fairly sure that anyone with a WDC on the line will, consciously or subconsciously, factor in slightly bigger margins. He had to get that car to the finish, he had to keep that engine alive, not only there, but also in Brazil. That would be a factor.

And why would you not believe the Mclaren had just that edge over the RBR?

Anybody can obviously believe what they want, but to take Austin as an example of why Alonso would destroy Vettel is very, very far-fetched.


mclaren and red bull were evenly matched in that race. vettel got beaten fair and square. ;)


That is also a possible scenario. Hard to know what exactly. I'll keep on thinking the Mclaren got a slight advantage. Not to detract from Hamilton, who had a superb drive - I believe both had and I loved the fact we saw two top drivers duke it out for an entire race (in part thanks to Pirelli for that one).

Also, people will get beaten. Everybody will, at times. Even Massa gets on top of Alonso sometimes. :)

But the part you put in bold - that's my main thing here.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel and Alonso
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:33 pm 
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diablof1 wrote:
because maybe the last couple of races before austin gp red bull were very dominant. so they kept that momentum into austin gp.


And in Brazil they went on to lock the front row. So you could as well say Mclaren was on a rising arch. Anyway, I count 3 more or less dominant races from RB in the last 11 races - that's not nearly enough to be sure it was the best in Austin.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel and Alonso
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:39 pm 
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I think Vettel will be better than Alonso because:

- All the stats say so
- He is more stable in mindset
- He does not loose focus by political games
- He is a better qualifier
- He does not need No1 status in team to win anything
- When things don't go his way he is not a sore loser
- He broke all Alonso's records

On what facts is "Alonso will destroy Vettel" based on? Just factual replies please and civilized communication.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel and Alonso
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:34 pm 
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diablof1 wrote:
Myst wrote:
diablof1 wrote:
its just a opinion. i could be 100% right or wrong. zekenwolf makes a interesting yet valid point about being surprised like the example he gave about prost/mansell. vettel has had the best car for 3 seasons and he just about won the championship in 2010 and 2012. hammy or alonso in that car they would have wrapped up the title more early and in a schumacher dominant way.


We don't know that.
Personally, I reckon Hamilton would have a nervous breakdown because of pressure towards the end of the season and start crashing into Massa everytime he could. And Alonso would be too busy try to bully Webber into submission and would end up blocking him in the pits on a qualy lap (because Webber would probably dominate him in qualifying), only to end up getting fired at the end of the season.
Until we have two of these guys in the same car we won't know to be honest, no point making statements that hold absolutely no value other than for arguments sake.


:lol:

also if they were teamed together vettel would call alonso "crazy" when alonso keeps beating him. like he did to webber in 2010 turkey. ;)


And Webber did to him several times publicly on television in the same year.

So yeah at the end of the day, we could all make up our own reality, or cross our fingers for closely matched cars next year :)


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel and Alonso
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:08 pm 
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diablof1 wrote:
no my friend they are not. unless they both are in the same team and fight for the title 88 style. the closest we had of senna-prost was in 2007 hamilton vs alonso.

+1

Although I did correct it for my own view, I wont bother saying who would win on top of Alonso/Vettel because its all speculation. Vettel has dominated webber and if Alonso smashes Vettel then that means Webber is going to be even slower compared to Alonso. I just dont believe that Logic.

Personally I would love to see both drivers in the team so we can see a non rookie Young Vettel vs Alonso who is driving his best. I put the non rookie part because what 2007 did was show a Rookie vs Double Champ.

I dont think we will see another Senna/Prost moment for a long time not only were they in the same team but one driver was prepared to do all his talking on the track yet the other resorted to any trick in the book. Although you certainly could compare Prost to Alonso, only difference I would add is the fact Alonso wouldnt go to the stewards - he would just tweet it and get Ferrari to do it instead.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel and Alonso
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:39 pm 
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chican wrote:
If Vettel signed with Ferrari for the next season, probably Fernando would own him, just becaue Vettel is suited to a different type of car. In the long term they'll get even.


I don't agree and with a reason. I think the Ferrari setup - mediocre in qualifying but excellent in the race itself - is not unlike the way Vettel's RB8 was set-up for the run from the pit lane in Abu Dhabi. Of course, we do not know what it would have performed like on a qualifying lap with that setting but judging that it was very different from their usual winning quali set-up, probably not as well. And yet it was obviously very good in race trim and what's more, suited Vettel very well.

Vettel, with his good performances outside F1 and even in F1 itself, has shown that he can adapt quickly to the quirks of a new car. IMO, if he were to move to Ferrari alongside Alonso (as I think he will in 2015), Vettel will steadily catch-up with Alonso and has an even chance of beating the Spaniard by the end of the season.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel and Alonso
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:45 pm 
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diablof1 wrote:
mds wrote:
I'm really wondering why people think Alonso would "destroy" Vettel.

Seriously, with Vettels qualifying skills, obvious speed at the front, and mental stability when it really matters, I honestly doubt Vettel wouldn't be able to make things very interesting.


thats true but what happened at the usa gp this season. lewis hunted down vettel lap after lap and got vettel. alonso would do the same. webber gave vettel big problems in 2010 and he is not even near alonso/hammy.

won't happen using similar car with similar engine


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel and Alonso
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:49 pm 
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diablof1 wrote:
klauss wrote:
diablof1 wrote:
no my friend they are not. unless they both are in the same team and fight for the title 88 style, but me thinks alonso would destroy vettel in the same team. the closest we had of senna-prost was in 2007 hamilton vs alonso.


based on what ?!


its just a opinion. i could be 100% right or wrong. zekenwolf makes a interesting yet valid point about being surprised like the example he gave about prost/mansell. vettel has had the best car for 3 seasons and he just about won the championship in 2010 and 2012. hammy or alonso in that car they would have wrapped up the title more early and in a schumacher dominant way.

That's your opinion. Mine is, Karthikeyan could've clinched the title at Hungaroring with Vettel's RB8.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel and Alonso
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:21 pm 
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I highly doubt it. We'd have to get them in the same team first.

As for who'd win out of Vettel and Alonso. It really all comes down to who you like more out of the two. There is very little to no factual evidence to say that one is better than the other.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel and Alonso
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:47 pm 
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ferdinand wrote:
That's your opinion. Mine is, Karthikeyan could've clinched the title at Hungaroring with Vettel's RB8.


You're saying Karthikeyan is heaps better than Webber?
Don't be silly.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel and Alonso
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:54 pm 
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I love that people are suggesting that the RB8 is the fastest car this year. Did they only watch Japan through India? Mclaren had the fastest package throughout the entire year except for those 3 races and at times Ferrari was quicker than Red Bull around the summer.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel and Alonso
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:05 pm 
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theman28 wrote:
I love that people are suggesting that the RB8 is the fastest car this year. Did they only watch Japan through India? Mclaren had the fastest package throughout the entire year except for those 3 races and at times Ferrari was quicker than Red Bull around the summer.

People see only waht they want to see. Looking at some of the warped opinions here, I guess some can even watch races backwards.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel and Alonso
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:08 pm 
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mds wrote:
ferdinand wrote:
That's your opinion. Mine is, Karthikeyan could've clinched the title at Hungaroring with Vettel's RB8.


You're saying Karthikeyan is heaps better than Webber?
Don't be silly.


:thumbup:

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel and Alonso
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:09 pm 
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ferdinand wrote:
diablof1 wrote:
klauss wrote:
diablof1 wrote:
no my friend they are not. unless they both are in the same team and fight for the title 88 style, but me thinks alonso would destroy vettel in the same team. the closest we had of senna-prost was in 2007 hamilton vs alonso.


based on what ?!


its just a opinion. i could be 100% right or wrong. zekenwolf makes a interesting yet valid point about being surprised like the example he gave about prost/mansell. vettel has had the best car for 3 seasons and he just about won the championship in 2010 and 2012. hammy or alonso in that car they would have wrapped up the title more early and in a schumacher dominant way.

That's your opinion. Mine is, Karthikeyan could've clinched the title at Hungaroring with Vettel's RB8.


:uhoh:

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