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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:56 am 
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What should be the new Qualifying format now that HRT are missing?
Should it stay as it is and just have the obvious candidates fall out or should it be changed?

Maybe 2 sessions and 12 go through? This may stop teams not setting a time to save tyres as ti would be 2 spots lower.

Make Q1 for a different number? say 8 cars or 15 cars or what ever.

I dont see the point of the current set up now. I think either a straight half/half split or just one session to sort the top 10.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:03 pm 
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I think either only 15 cars through after Q1 and 8 through after Q2, or as you say, two qualifying sessions.

Also, running should be compulsory, either by rule or just having Q3 tyres.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:15 pm 
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The system is popular and they've already run it with less than 22 cars, so to me it seems unlikely they'll switch to just 2 sessions. Since it was introduced the number of teams has fluctuated and they've just altered the number of cars that drop out in the three sessions. With 24 cars it's been 7, 7, 10. With 22 it will presumably be either 6, 6, 10 or 7, 7, 8.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:18 pm 
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It'll be 6-6-10. In fact that could spice things up even more since two of the non bottom team cars will go out in Q1. Teams like Force India and Williams won't be able to relax in Q1 at all.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:34 pm 
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Three rounds one hot lap each so everyone gets 3 and only 3 hotlaps.
Start in the reverse order of driver numbers. #1 driver runs last every round
Each car gets released 10 -15 sec behind another one - so no probs with traffic. If you miss the slot - you miss the round.
At the end of the three rounds - take the fastest time from any round.

2 sets of option tyres & 1 set of prime allocated per driver for Quali .
I m not sure if forcing the teams to use the same tyres in races is a good idea.
I m a fan on quali only tyres but can see an element of strategy if you saved a set for th e race.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:35 pm 
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- 107% time counting towards the pole time, not the fastest Q1 time.
- 6-6-10 is logical, although I'd actually prefer a return to old times. 12 laps, fastest wins. I loved those old qualifications.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:45 pm 
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mds wrote:
- 107% time counting towards the pole time, not the fastest Q1 time.
- 6-6-10 is logical, although I'd actually prefer a return to old times. 12 laps, fastest wins. I loved those old qualifications.


The 107% was from the time there were too many cars wanting to race. Applying it to the pole time would drop even more competitors. There are few enough as it is.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:55 pm 
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moby wrote:
mds wrote:
- 107% time counting towards the pole time, not the fastest Q1 time.
- 6-6-10 is logical, although I'd actually prefer a return to old times. 12 laps, fastest wins. I loved those old qualifications.


The 107% was from the time there were too many cars wanting to race. Applying it to the pole time would drop even more competitors. There are few enough as it is.


That is not correct. In fact, it is the direct opposite.

The rule stems from a time when the number of teams had dropped to the point everybody could compete (there was a limit of 26 cars, which wasn't reached anymore). Certain teams were just too slow and this was deemed unwanted. Therefore the 107% rule was put in place in 1996.

That's actually logical, a 107% rule isn't suited for capping a certain allowed number of drivers - for that there were DNQ's (and at some point even DNPQ's).


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:57 pm 
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All cars should be forced to run and not sit in the garage.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:00 pm 
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Maybe it's rose-tinted specs but I remember the old one-hour free qualifying format being far more exciting than anything that's been tried since.

The way it used to build to a climax with the fastest guys trying to be last over the line while at the same time trying to avoid traffic made it far more entertaining back then. Maybe it was also due to qualifying-spec cars run on fumes on special one-lap tyres with the lowest ride heights possible sending showers of sparks everywhere etc.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:23 pm 
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How about during a first session, everyone must run the hardest compound, and a certain fuel level.
Cars come out and do their thing. Then, afterwards, the fastest time of the 1st pilot and the fastest time of the last pilot are added up and divided by 2 (or whatever average thing would be better to calculate averages). That would make a new order.

If a pilot doesn't have a time set due to cicumstances, or an off time, the time from the position next to the one needed is being used.

Again for the softest compound. Same system. Then combine again the average times of those 2 sessions to have to final grid.

So everyone would be dependent on everyone. No more drop out zones or stuff like that.

Just an idea though...

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:23 pm 
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SteveC84 wrote:
All cars should be forced to run and not sit in the garage.



This. Or, just give them extra tyres for qualifying dammit.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:50 pm 
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stay as it is, and put i bit of pressure on the teams that would normally just get into Q2. then 6 go out in Q2


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:00 pm 
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Super pole format, one lap, do or die. Adds allot more excitement and unpredictable happenings, much better then the predictable procession we have now, but it seems most fans on here like things to be predictable and no surprises happening, as most won't to stay on the current format, which is far to predictable and boring.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:09 pm 
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Jomox wrote:
but it seems most fans on here like things to be predictable and no surprises happening


I want pole to be what it originally was supposed to be: see who the fastest man is over a single lap. A while back we had two one-hour qualifying sessions, and I loved watching Senna and the likes compete to have the absolute fastest lap. For me, it's just part of F1 history and it makes the most sense.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:32 pm 
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Exactly.

For me the two best formats are.

30 min to hour session everyone going at it, best man wins.

Super Pole quali, one lap do or die, who can handle the pressure.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:47 pm 
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Single car runs. You get a warm up lap and a hot lap. Also no parc ferme. You can have a qualy setup and race setup. These are supposedly the best drivers in the world. Lets hold them to it and make them get it done in a single lap. Also this leaves no room for error and could very well mix the grid up more often with fast drivers making mistakes and having to come through the field on race day. One shot qualifying and that's it's. we all hate how travel traps have disappeared so drivers dot pay for their mistakes, well this could help bring a little of the punishment back. Say Vettel went purple in sector 1-2 and was last car out and he went off in sector three coating him time, maybe he would end up 5-6 on the grid and he'd have to work harder for more points. Same obviously goes for any driver.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:54 pm 
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The current format is good with the exception of Q3 drivers having to use their qualifying tires to start the race. That is what leads teams to stay in the garage or do just one cautious run in Q3.

The multi-session qualifying should definitely stay. It's way superior to the times of one long qualifying session, which hardly anyone watched because there were no cars on track and all fast laps were put down in the last 5 minutes. There is no way to make drivers go out and do laps throughout a long session because the superior grip is found at the end. Also, more importantly, teams will not do a lot of running even if extra tires are given because they are trying their best to save the engine. And extra engines will certainly not be given.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:59 pm 
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2005 one :D

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:10 pm 
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mds wrote:
Jomox wrote:
but it seems most fans on here like things to be predictable and no surprises happening


I want pole to be what it originally was supposed to be: see who the fastest man is over a single lap. A while back we had two one-hour qualifying sessions, and I loved watching Senna and the likes compete to have the absolute fastest lap. For me, it's just part of F1 history and it makes the most sense.


Trouble is then you end up with cars lined up in exact speed order which is a killer for racing.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:22 pm 
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Current format is great. Ensures on-track action almost all the time. The purist in me would like the old 1-hour format with 12 laps per driver, i really enjoyed that. But you also have to be realistic. New format is much better in providing action for everyone, harcorefan or casual.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:16 pm 
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JohnnyGuitar wrote:
Maybe it's rose-tinted specs but I remember the old one-hour free qualifying format being far more exciting than anything that's been tried since.


Yes, the empty track for the first 25 minutes was thrilling.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:26 pm 
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As stated people on here want qualifying to stay as it as: A predictable boring format, with some teams deciding not to even do laps in Q3 just setting sectors, total farce.

With super pole it's do or die, and brings up many surprises, it's not predictable as even the best can make mistakes.

But let's stay with the awful format we are on, after all it suits their favored driver and teams. Most support top drivers/teams so having surprises and something that's not predictable is not supported at all, everyone wants something predictable so the top guys don't suffer.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:33 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
mds wrote:
Jomox wrote:
but it seems most fans on here like things to be predictable and no surprises happening


I want pole to be what it originally was supposed to be: see who the fastest man is over a single lap. A while back we had two one-hour qualifying sessions, and I loved watching Senna and the likes compete to have the absolute fastest lap. For me, it's just part of F1 history and it makes the most sense.


Trouble is then you end up with cars lined up in exact speed order which is a killer for racing.


Didn't history prove otherwise?
Either way, except for the odd misplacing, the current format doesn't really differentiate that much either.

I think, if you really want to shake things up, you should look beyond just the qualifying format itself. Instead, do something with the qualifying result.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:42 pm 
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Ashberto wrote:
JohnnyGuitar wrote:
Maybe it's rose-tinted specs but I remember the old one-hour free qualifying format being far more exciting than anything that's been tried since.


Yes, the empty track for the first 25 minutes was thrilling.


And Q1 last season was thrilling? Sure all the cars were on track, but it was meaningless lapping for the majority. It didn't exactly grab my attention. Q2 wasn't much better unless changeable weather threw in some jeopardy, and Q3 failed too many times to spark into life for me.

At least the old format used to build to a climax, I don't think it does anymore. Not as much as it could do.

The biggest problem with qualifying is tyre saving. Throw in an extra set for all cars that get to Q2, than another for all cars that get to Q3, and it would improve the show. Even better, provide them with special qualifying tyres.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:00 pm 
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Here's my idea:

Four 15-minute sessions. Each car MUST set at least one flying lap in each session and the average time from each of the four sessions will become their final qualifying time.

That way you get action for the full hour - every driver has to be flat out otherwise it'll increase their average qualifying time. Plus having tyres specifially for qualifying would encourage everyone to be on it and not protecting their tyres for the race. Simples!

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:02 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
It'll be 6-6-10. In fact that could spice things up even more since two of the non bottom team cars will go out in Q1. Teams like Force India and Williams won't be able to relax in Q1 at all.


I like the top 10 shoot out, so I'd keep it. I also like the 6 in Q1 as Laura has stated, probably be the Caterhams, Marussias and 2 guest spots for whatever team is slow that week. Bigger risk for teams in the lower midfield.

Eliminating less than 4 cars in a group would be pretty pointless imo, so 6-6-10 is probably best. top 10 shot out seems more marketable than Top 8 shoot out for some reason.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:05 pm 
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MistaVega23 wrote:
Here's my idea:

Four 15-minute sessions. Each car MUST set at least one flying lap in each session and the average time from each of the four sessions will become their final qualifying time.

That way you get action for the full hour - every driver has to be flat out otherwise it'll increase their average qualifying time. Plus having tyres specifially for qualifying would encourage everyone to be on it and not protecting their tyres for the race. Simples!


Ugh.

Imagine trying to work out who was on pole!


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:05 pm 
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mac_d wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
It'll be 6-6-10. In fact that could spice things up even more since two of the non bottom team cars will go out in Q1. Teams like Force India and Williams won't be able to relax in Q1 at all.


I like the top 10 shoot out, so I'd keep it. I also like the 6 in Q1 as Laura has stated, probably be the Caterhams, Marussias and 2 guest spots for whatever team is slow that week. Bigger risk for teams in the lower midfield.

Eliminating less than 4 cars in a group would be pretty pointless imo, so 6-6-10 is probably best. top 10 shot out seems more marketable than Top 8 shoot out for some reason.


Surely this is the obvious way.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:09 pm 
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SteveC84 wrote:
All cars should be forced to run and not sit in the garage.



I don't think that would work. I reckon you would just end up with guys going around to the Delta to save tyres instead.

Then of course if they hold anyone up. Well they would be on their timed lap anyway. Making things worse.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:09 pm 
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Jomox wrote:
Super pole format, one lap, do or die. Adds allot more excitement and unpredictable happenings, much better then the predictable procession we have now, but it seems most fans on here like things to be predictable and no surprises happening, as most won't to stay on the current format, which is far to predictable and boring.


The problem with that is that oftentimes it will be just a matter of luck. Who gets less traffic, who gets the best weather, who gets the best track conditions, who gets less affected by others etc.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:10 pm 
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SteveC84 wrote:
All cars should be forced to run and not sit in the garage.


I'll raise you:

All drivers should be forced to run and not sit in the car.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:11 pm 
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I'd like to see race fuel qualifying.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:14 pm 
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Assuming that a return to the one lap style isn't ever going to be considered, and they keep the three sessions of X eliminations, I would assume they will simply go to the 6-6-10 approach.

But why not shake things up a little more than that and have it as 8-7-7? That way, there is even more pressure placed on Q1 than if you're just losing 6 cars, especially if 4 of them are generally going to be the Caterham/Marussia drivers. With only 7 cars making it through to Q3, you would invariably lose some bigger names in Q2. I suppose the negative is Q3 may become even less of a climax if you've only 7 cars involved, especially if a couple decide not to set laps. Maybe 7-7-8, so there's an extra car in Q3. I don't know. I think whatever they do with the current system, the problem of drivers not running in Q3 will remain an issue.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:20 pm 
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What about a playoff format?

Random lots are drawn to make groups of 4 racers. Racers in a group are released 15 seconds apart to do a warmup lap, then as they cross the line, timer starts. They get 3 laps to see who clocks the best times. Top 2 proceed to next round, the bottom 2 from every group form the bottom half of the grid. Keep continuing until you eventually have final 2, or final 4 - to set pole position.

24 (6groups of 4) -> 12 (3groups of 4) -> 6 (2groups of 3) -> 2 (final for pole position)
this will mean 12 groups over the rounds, all doing 3 laps a piece. Assuming 2 mins a lap, should run for 1h30 and be entertaining throughout.

The above will mix up the grid as you might have top 4 drivers drawn together in first round. Also, it makes it easier to follow qualifying, as only 4 racers out at a time. Also, you have x amount of tyres and fuel for the race maximum, how you distribute it between quali and race is your choice.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:26 pm 
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radiofoot wrote:
What about a playoff format?

Random lots are drawn to make groups of 4 racers. Racers in a group are released 15 seconds apart to do a warmup lap, then as they cross the line, timer starts. They get 3 laps to see who clocks the best times. Top 2 proceed to next round, the bottom 2 from every group form the bottom half of the grid. Keep continuing until you eventually have final 2, or final 4 - to set pole position.

24 (6groups of 4) -> 12 (3groups of 4) -> 6 (2groups of 3) -> 2 (final for pole position)
this will mean 12 groups over the rounds, all doing 3 laps a piece. Assuming 2 mins a lap, should run for 1h30 and be entertaining throughout.

The above will mix up the grid as you might have top 4 drivers drawn together in first round. Also, it makes it easier to follow qualifying, as only 4 racers out at a time. Also, you have x amount of tyres and fuel for the race maximum, how you distribute it between quali and race is your choice.


The purpose of qualifying is to determine who starts where in the race. Doesn't need to be the formula one world cup.

Also 22=2x11 is divisible by a large prime number, making tournament design based on anything other than a league table a pain in the donkey.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:27 pm 
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Ashberto wrote:
JohnnyGuitar wrote:
Maybe it's rose-tinted specs but I remember the old one-hour free qualifying format being far more exciting than anything that's been tried since.


Yes, the empty track for the first 25 minutes was thrilling.

Wrong, we occasionally got an Arrows or a Minardi going round to get tv time :D !

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:32 pm 
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Eva09 wrote:
SteveC84 wrote:
All cars should be forced to run and not sit in the garage.


I'll raise you:

All drivers should be forced to run and not sit in the car.


What about Quali Flintstone stylee .

then they run and sit in the car :P

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:52 pm 
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radiofoot wrote:
What about a playoff format?

Random lots are drawn to make groups of 4 racers. Racers in a group are released 15 seconds apart to do a warmup lap, then as they cross the line, timer starts. They get 3 laps to see who clocks the best times. Top 2 proceed to next round, the bottom 2 from every group form the bottom half of the grid. Keep continuing until you eventually have final 2, or final 4 - to set pole position.

24 (6groups of 4) -> 12 (3groups of 4) -> 6 (2groups of 3) -> 2 (final for pole position)
this will mean 12 groups over the rounds, all doing 3 laps a piece. Assuming 2 mins a lap, should run for 1h30 and be entertaining throughout.

The above will mix up the grid as you might have top 4 drivers drawn together in first round. Also, it makes it easier to follow qualifying, as only 4 racers out at a time. Also, you have x amount of tyres and fuel for the race maximum, how you distribute it between quali and race is your choice.


In IndyCar, they divide the field into two groups for the first phase of their street/road qualifying sessions. Six cars from each group then advance, and then six of those twelve go through from a second session into the shootout for pole. One of the issues it has caused is when the random group drawing heavily populates one of the two initial groups with faster cars. Can you imagine this year if you'd had Vettel, Alonso, Hamilton and Webber all drawn in one group? You then lose two of them for the remainder of quali, for reasons that have nothing to do with their actual performance. And can you imagine the conspiracy theories we would've had if such a system had been in place and, at Brazil, Alonso had been drawn with Webber, Hamilton and Button, and Seb had ended up with Pic, de la Rosa and Karthikeyan? It's becomes too random, IMO. Obviously doesn't work so well with 22 cars on the grid, either.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:06 pm 
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I would like to see old classic qualifying 12 laps. It was great.


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