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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:13 pm 
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Sebastian Vettel Top Overtaker in 2012. :D despite driving one of the slowest cars (top speed wise). Can people now stop saying that he cannot overtake?

All overtakes
1. Sebastian Vettel – 74 on-track overtakes
1. Mark Webber – 74
3. Felipe Massa – 65
4. Lewis Hamilton – 55
4. Romain Grosjean – 55

All overtakes, without backmarkers
Disgarding the overtakes on the teams of HRT, Marussia and Caterham
1. Sebastian Vettel – 51 on-track overtakes
2. Lewis Hamilton – 46
2. Mark Webber – 46
4. Felipe Massa – 45
5. Jenson Button – 41

All overtakes, without backmarkers, with equal tires
Disgarding the overtakes on the teams of HRT, Marussia and Caterham
Disgarding overtakes on cars with more than 5 lap older tires
1. Sebastian Vettel – 29 on-track overtakes
2. Jenson Button – 26
3. Mark Webber – 24
4. Kimi Räikkönen – 23
4. Felipe Massa – 23

All overtakes, only on 5 top teams
Counting only overtakes on the teams of Red Bull, Ferrari, McLaren, Lotus and Mercedes
1. Sebastian Vettel – 28 on-track overtakes
2. Lewis Hamilton – 25
3. Jenson Button – 22
4. Kimi Räikkönen – 21
5. Felipe Massa – 16

http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... 398883&f=1

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:19 pm 
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I'll be the first...

"but he was just lucky and had other drivers moving over for him!"

also

"even though we've been saying all season that the RB8 is only fast from the front and pig slow in a straight line, he clearly had the best car"

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Last edited by ashley313 on Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:20 pm 
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That last one is telling.

It's also the best one, since detractors won't come up with the Toro Rosso overtakes :)


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:24 pm 
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Wow, didn't realize Massa figured so well. He qualified poorly of course, and that could be said of some others on the list. But he is on the list of overtakes on top 5 teams as well. :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:25 pm 
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I'm suprised Alonso is not on the lists (especially the last one) while Massa is. And he usually started far back on the grid.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:30 pm 
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kalikarios wrote:
I'm suprised Alonso is not on the lists (especially the last one) while Massa is. And he usually started far back on the grid.


Massa was usually further back... more opportunity.

Another stat that would be interesting would be over takes from the start. I suspect that is an area you might see Alonso show up on the list.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:34 pm 
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Vettel does not seem to have any flaws. He is the best qualifier I have ever seen, you can always count on him to not make any mistakes in qualifying. He excels when he is under pressure (second half of the 2010 and 2012 season being prime examples). He is an amazing wet weather driver. He can take care of his tires and yet go fast (Weber's tires usually fall off 3-4 laps before his, sometimes more) He is not involved in any controversies and lives for racing. He is the best overtaker if he does not start on pole. He is triple world champion at just 25 and the most successful driver on the grid now that Schumacher has retired. Sebastian Vettel is the best :thumbup:

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:35 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
I'll be the first...

"but he was just lucky and had other drivers moving over for him!"

also

"even though we've been saying all season that the RB8 is only fast from the front and pig slow in a straight line, he clearly had the best car"


He and Webber did have the best car, ashley... regardless of his passing stats. His good passing numbers don't change that.

I am not discrediting what Vettel did, and usually have not, but you have to admit that helps to overtake when you have the best car, or in the case of Hamilton the fastest car which was also a bit unreliable. Wouldn't you agree?

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:36 pm 
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Blake wrote:
kalikarios wrote:
I'm suprised Alonso is not on the lists (especially the last one) while Massa is. And he usually started far back on the grid.


Massa was usually further back... more opportunity.

Another stat that would be interesting would be over takes from the start. I suspect that is an area you might see Alonso show up on the list.


Yes, Alonso might perform better if they included over takes at the start, but he still would not be better than Massa, moreover it would be unfair to Vettel and Hamilton because they are such great qualifiers and hence cannot make up any places at the start.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:38 pm 
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Note: Vettel started last in Abu Dhabi & went to around 20th in China, Brazil, (10th in SPA)

Hamilton started last in Spain & got into Q3 every race this year

This gives less scope for manoeuvres as there are less cars to pass - it is very difficult to create a list of concrete unarguable stats on overtaking. Say lasy year didn't Vettel have one of the worst overtaking records - but it didn't matter as he usually lead away from pole.

I will say I thought Vettel was pretty awful at overtaking before 2011, but having seen him these past 2 years he is much improved & makes much less errors & more importantly gets the job done quickly.

Vettel may have the most overtakes this year but I reckon Raikkonen was the best. Anyone can sail by others using DRS or dominate HRTs through corners but it's the opertunist moves or the risky moves that I judge the best on. Raikkonen on Schumi at SPA or on Hulkenberg at USA are 2 of several brilliant moves this year. & to be the best you don't make silly errors either

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:39 pm 
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Blake wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
I'll be the first...

"but he was just lucky and had other drivers moving over for him!"

also

"even though we've been saying all season that the RB8 is only fast from the front and pig slow in a straight line, he clearly had the best car"


He and Webber did have the best car, ashley... regardless of his passing stats. His good passing numbers don't change that.

I am not discrediting what Vettel did, and usually have not, but you have to admit that helps to overtake when you have the best car, or in the case of Hamilton the fastest car which was also a bit unreliable. Wouldn't you agree?


Would you not agree that the Red Bull is slow in a straight in comparison to the other cars? Which is where most overtaking happens.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:40 pm 
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kalikarios wrote:
I'm suprised Alonso is not on the lists (especially the last one) while Massa is. And he usually started far back on the grid.

He only qualified out of the top 10 twice.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:42 pm 
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Rocket_Red wrote:
Note: Vettel started last in Abu Dhabi & went to around 20th in China, Brazil, (10th in SPA)

Hamilton started last in Spain & got into Q3 every race this year

This gives less scope for manoeuvres as there are less cars to pass - it is very difficult to create a list of concrete unarguable stats on overtaking. Say lasy year didn't Vettel have one of the worst overtaking records - but it didn't matter as he usually lead away from pole.

I will say I thought Vettel was pretty awful at overtaking before 2011, but having seen him these past 2 years he is much improved & makes much less errors & more importantly gets the job done quickly.

Vettel may have the most overtakes this year but I reckon Raikkonen was the best. Anyone can sail by others using DRS or dominate HRTs through corners but it's the opertunist moves or the risky moves that I judge the best on. Raikkonen on Schumi at SPA or on Hulkenberg at USA are 2 of several brilliant moves this year. & to be the best you don't make silly errors either


I think you are missing the part which says "All overtakes, only on 5 top teams, Counting only overtakes on the teams of Red Bull, Ferrari, McLaren, Lotus and Mercedes" Vettel (28 moves) and Hamilton (25) top this list too.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:45 pm 
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70 of those overtakes were done in Abu Dhabi


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:47 pm 
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JerCotter7 wrote:
Blake wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
I'll be the first...

"but he was just lucky and had other drivers moving over for him!"

also

"even though we've been saying all season that the RB8 is only fast from the front and pig slow in a straight line, he clearly had the best car"


He and Webber did have the best car, ashley... regardless of his passing stats. His good passing numbers don't change that.

I am not discrediting what Vettel did, and usually have not, but you have to admit that helps to overtake when you have the best car, or in the case of Hamilton the fastest car which was also a bit unreliable. Wouldn't you agree?


Would you not agree that the Red Bull is slow in a straight in comparison to the other cars? Which is where most overtaking happens.

:thumbup:

Blake - I don't believe there is such a thing as the "best" car. The McLaren had the best pace in qualifying and race trim for most of the year, the Red Bull had the best development, the Lotus was the most consistent, and the Ferrari was the most reliable. All four were cars capable of winning the championship, and that's all that matters.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:47 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
kalikarios wrote:
I'm suprised Alonso is not on the lists (especially the last one) while Massa is. And he usually started far back on the grid.

He only qualified out of the top 10 twice.


Yes, but he often qualified from 4th to 9th place.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:49 pm 
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kalikarios wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
kalikarios wrote:
I'm suprised Alonso is not on the lists (especially the last one) while Massa is. And he usually started far back on the grid.

He only qualified out of the top 10 twice.


Yes, but he often qualified from 4th to 9th place.

That's not exactly "far back" on a grid of 24.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:02 pm 
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Given how slow that RB is in a straight line it is impressive. Hamilton won't be pleased about it either, he considers himself the overtaking king and for Vettel to take that title from him as well won't go down well.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:11 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
Given how slow that RB is in a straight line it is impressive. Hamilton won't be pleased about it either, he considers himself the overtaking king and for Vettel to take that title from him as well won't go down well.


I doubt that he is bothered or even knows unless he has a secret account on here...

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:12 pm 
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Senna88 wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
Given how slow that RB is in a straight line it is impressive. Hamilton won't be pleased about it either, he considers himself the overtaking king and for Vettel to take that title from him as well won't go down well.


I doubt that he is bothered or even knows unless he has a secret account on here...

F1 drivers are competitive guys. Little stats like that do bother them. If I was a driver it'd bother me. It's just another thing your rival has come out on top over you on no matter how small it is and Vettel is beginning to rattle Hamilton big time.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:13 pm 
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I suspect drivers, like most fans, value the difficulty and consequences of crucial passes over the numbers. I know I always have, in both my sporting careers.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:21 pm 
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Well it does help he went through the field a couple of times this season. Spa, Abu D and Brazil. That's a heck of alot of places made up due to things which could have been avoided.

I don't think other drivers will care much. Vettel won the title and had the most wins, they probably stopped caring after that.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:21 pm 
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Quark wrote:
Vettel does not seem to have any flaws. He is the best qualifier I have ever seen, you can always count on him to not make any mistakes in qualifying. He excels when he is under pressure (second half of the 2010 and 2012 season being prime examples). He is an amazing wet weather driver. He can take care of his tires and yet go fast (Weber's tires usually fall off 3-4 laps before his, sometimes more) He is not involved in any controversies and lives for racing. He is the best overtaker if he does not start on pole. He is triple world champion at just 25 and the most successful driver on the grid now that Schumacher has retired. Sebastian Vettel is the best :thumbup:


nah

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:54 pm 
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Blake wrote:
kalikarios wrote:
I'm suprised Alonso is not on the lists (especially the last one) while Massa is. And he usually started far back on the grid.


Massa was usually further back... more opportunity.

Another stat that would be interesting would be over takes from the start. I suspect that is an area you might see Alonso show up on the list.
I've done one similar for you Blake, positions gained per race ;)

Alonso improved 52 places for the 33 of Sebastian Vettel. If it wasn't for Abu Dhabi, Vettel would be very low in that list. Both retired twice so I've only taken 18 results of each one.

Race, *started-ended=difference; cumulative* Alonso on the left columns, Vettel on the right ones.

AUS 12-5 =7***** 6-2 =4
MAL 8-1 =7;14*****5-11 =-6;-2
CHI 9-9 =0;14***** 11-5 =6;4
BAR 9-7 =2;16***** 1-1 =0;4
SPA 2-2 =0;16***** 7-6 =1;5
MON 5-3 =2;18***** 9-4 =5;10
CAN 3-5 =-2;16***** 1-4 =-3;7
EUR 11-1 =10;26***** n/a n/a
GB 1-2 =-1;25***** 4-3 =1;8
GER 1-1 =0; 25***** 2-5 =-3;5
HUN 6-5 +1=26***** 3-4 =-1;4
BEL n/a ;26***** 10-2 =8;12
ITA 10-3 =7;33***** N/a n/a
SIN 5-3 =2;35***** 3-1 =2;14
JAP n/a ;35***** 1-1 14
KOR 4-3 =1;36***** 2-1 =1;15
IND 5-2 =3;39***** 1-1 =0;15
ABU 6-2 =4;43***** 24-3 =21;36
USA 7-3 =4;47***** 2-1 =-1;35
BRA 7-2 =5;52***** 4-6 =-2;33


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:11 pm 
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chican wrote:
If it wasn't for Abu Dhabi, Vettel would be very low in that list.


If it wasn't for his excellent overtakings...

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:16 pm 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
chican wrote:
If it wasn't for Abu Dhabi, Vettel would be very low in that list.


If it wasn't for his excellent overtakings...
IMHO, it goes against the spirit of the rule being able to change your setup after that penalization. What about those guys who qualified 23rd or 22nd? Why aren't then they allowed to change their gear ratios too?

BTW without the penalty Vettel would've gained around 10-15 positions in that list for the 52 of Fernando.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:29 pm 
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He stinks ;)


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:39 pm 
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Quote:
Blake - I don't believe there is such a thing as the "best" car. The McLaren had the best pace in qualifying and race trim for most of the year, the Red Bull had the best development, the Lotus was the most consistent, and the Ferrari was the most reliable. All four were cars capable of winning the championship, and that's all that matters.

He did have the best overall package. Just look at those qualy times in Singapore and beyond

Singapore - 3

India - 1

Korea - 2

Japan 1

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:46 pm 
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chican wrote:
Blake wrote:
kalikarios wrote:
I'm suprised Alonso is not on the lists (especially the last one) while Massa is. And he usually started far back on the grid.


Massa was usually further back... more opportunity.

Another stat that would be interesting would be over takes from the start. I suspect that is an area you might see Alonso show up on the list.
I've done one similar for you Blake, positions gained per race ;)

Alonso improved 52 places for the 33 of Sebastian Vettel. If it wasn't for Abu Dhabi, Vettel would be very low in that list. Both retired twice so I've only taken 18 results of each one.

Race, *started-ended=difference; cumulative* Alonso on the left columns, Vettel on the right ones.

AUS 12-5 =7***** 6-2 =4
MAL 8-1 =7;14*****5-11 =-6;-2
CHI 9-9 =0;14***** 11-5 =6;4
BAR 9-7 =2;16***** 1-1 =0;4
SPA 2-2 =0;16***** 7-6 =1;5
MON 5-3 =2;18***** 9-4 =5;10
CAN 3-5 =-2;16***** 1-4 =-3;7
EUR 11-1 =10;26***** n/a n/a
GB 1-2 =-1;25***** 4-3 =1;8
GER 1-1 =0; 25***** 2-5 =-3;5
HUN 6-5 +1=26***** 3-4 =-1;4
BEL n/a ;26***** 10-2 =8;12
ITA 10-3 =7;33***** N/a n/a
SIN 5-3 =2;35***** 3-1 =2;14
JAP n/a ;35***** 1-1 14
KOR 4-3 =1;36***** 2-1 =1;15
IND 5-2 =3;39***** 1-1 =0;15
ABU 6-2 =4;43***** 24-3 =21;36
USA 7-3 =4;47***** 2-1 =-1;35
BRA 7-2 =5;52***** 4-6 =-2;33

Well this seems to be more useful stat. :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:49 pm 
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chican wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
chican wrote:
If it wasn't for Abu Dhabi, Vettel would be very low in that list.


If it wasn't for his excellent overtakings...
IMHO, it goes against the spirit of the rule being able to change your setup after that penalization. What about those guys who qualified 23rd or 22nd? Why aren't then they allowed to change their gear ratios too?

BTW without the penalty Vettel would've gained around 10-15 positions in that list for the 52 of Fernando.

OK, I see your point and it's OK. But, I think that taking a penalty and starting from box is such and disadvantage, that rules should give you right to work on the car within the rules, changing a thing here and there as much as the rules allow.

Anyway, much more unsportsmanlike was moving Massa 5 places down. I don't think these things can even compare, although both were within the rules.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:04 pm 
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Even though he definitely made some good moves this year, most of the overtakes were pumped up by Team Strategy. Right tyres at the right time, right time during the pit window.

Several times he executed piss poor moves outside the track and either got penalised or had to give the place back. If he was more patient I'm sure he'd be better.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:06 pm 
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Alonso finished 17 races higher than he started them - 2 he DNFd & the other (Canada) he was 2nd (from 3rd start) before Ferrari got the strategy wrong

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:25 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
Given how slow that RB is in a straight line it is impressive. Hamilton won't be pleased about it either, he considers himself the overtaking king and for Vettel to take that title from him as well won't go down well.

The number of overtakes says nothing about who is the best overtaker
Hamilton overtook less cars , becaue he had not to do it.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:48 pm 
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Started from the back as they didn't put enough go go juice in his car, ended up 3rd. Crashed to the back and managed to get back up to 7th. Two races, 38 passes ... hardly surprising.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:50 pm 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
chican wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
chican wrote:
If it wasn't for Abu Dhabi, Vettel would be very low in that list.


If it wasn't for his excellent overtakings...
IMHO, it goes against the spirit of the rule being able to change your setup after that penalization. What about those guys who qualified 23rd or 22nd? Why aren't then they allowed to change their gear ratios too?

BTW without the penalty Vettel would've gained around 10-15 positions in that list for the 52 of Fernando.

OK, I see your point and it's OK. But, I think that taking a penalty and starting from box is such and disadvantage, that rules should give you right to work on the car within the rules, changing a thing here and there as much as the rules allow.

Anyway, much more unsportsmanlike was moving Massa 5 places down. I don't think these things can even compare, although both were within the rules.
you have a point,i didn't take into account the massa factor, so I'mdiscounting five places to alonso for the last races.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:53 pm 
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Facinating stuff. Red Bull's dominance towards the end of the season would nearly make you forget the qualy struggles they had earlier in the year.

I would have thought the Ferraris would have done a hell of a lot of overtaking this year but I guess they made most of their places up at the start.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:01 am 
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chican wrote:
IMHO, it goes against the spirit of the rule being able to change your setup after that penalization. What about those guys who qualified 23rd or 22nd? Why aren't then they allowed to change their gear ratios too..?
Anyone on the grid is allowed to change the settings - but it does mean that they would also have to start from the pit lane.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:19 am 
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chican wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
chican wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
chican wrote:
If it wasn't for Abu Dhabi, Vettel would be very low in that list.


If it wasn't for his excellent overtakings...
IMHO, it goes against the spirit of the rule being able to change your setup after that penalization. What about those guys who qualified 23rd or 22nd? Why aren't then they allowed to change their gear ratios too?

BTW without the penalty Vettel would've gained around 10-15 positions in that list for the 52 of Fernando.

OK, I see your point and it's OK. But, I think that taking a penalty and starting from box is such and disadvantage, that rules should give you right to work on the car within the rules, changing a thing here and there as much as the rules allow.

Anyway, much more unsportsmanlike was moving Massa 5 places down. I don't think these things can even compare, although both were within the rules.
you have a point,i didn't take into account the massa factor, so I'mdiscounting five places to alonso for the last races.



lol you should also then remove everytime vettel ever had to pass a torro rosso and schumacher in Brazil, is this counting people who get pitted so they dont have to let team mates past or is it on the track only overtakes.

The stats themselves are very interesting but only when you remove the results that are against the norm as they provide a scewed result. Vettel is a damn good driver and overtaker but his natural position is to lead from the front thus preventing him from having to make many overtakes.

Im not really interested in the number of overtakes a person makes, im more interested in their quality when overtaking and Vettel has shown some damn good quality overtakes as well as some not so clever moments just like most of the drivers in the pack.

Can we get results on overtakes not happening in the weak ass bull shit overtaking that is known as the DRS Zones


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:29 am 
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I wouldn't have thought that Vettel would be tops in all categories but it certainly goes to explain why he ended up winning.

People can come up with all sorts of theories and what-if's to try to discredit these numbers but at the end of the day, the results will be the same after you factor in everything you possibly can (and I'm not saying that's possible).

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:39 am 
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Quark wrote:
All overtakes, only on 5 top teams
Counting only overtakes on the teams of Red Bull, Ferrari, McLaren, Lotus and Mercedes
1. Sebastian Vettel – 28 on-track overtakes
2. Lewis Hamilton – 25
3. Jenson Button – 22
4. Kimi Räikkönen – 21
5. Felipe Massa – 16

Deal with it :smug:

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