planetf1.com

tbf, I'm surprised Hamilton had as much overtakes as he did... Anyway, as far as these results go, their impressive but in no way represent superiority for Vettel over the others - just happens he ended up in a situation where he had to overtake someone and did so more often than the other frontrunners

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Wise words from Martin Brundle:
“Rob Smedley should have been a driver; he's wasted as an engineer.”

and most of those overtakes were not under green flags!

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[[[[Mark Webber for the win in 2013 and beyond]]]
[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[http://www.octanic.com]]]]]]]]]]]]

So in actual fact, given Schumacher let Vettel through, Mark Webber is actually the top overtaker in 2012

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We want heroes, but there are few, mainly it's cars - Pedro De La Rosa

I'll make a blind wager and say that most of the overtaking moves this year, they've been down to tyre strategies etc., so if you want to take that out, then it becomes ever so increasingly difficult a list to put together. I personally think Kimi and Alonso from the top 5 have been really good... keeping their noses clean all year long is no mean feat. Vettel has also been really good, and that i can tell is rubbing some people the wrong way.

Vettel's done everything that his detractors asked of him... win races/ WDC with not the fastest car... Clearly this year Macca had the fastest car, well not the most competent team, but the car was excellent. He's started races from poor positions and finished strongly. He even ran an entire race with considerable damage to the car, which shows his ability to nurse machinery. He's done everything that is expected from a world champion and then some. Mind you, this is not the first time that Vettel has closed down a points gap to win the WDC.

Wait... RBR was cheating... Overtaking in yellow lights... bahhh... this is pathetic form and an absolute disgrace from some of the members here!

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My Top 5 drivers of all times:
1) Prost/ Schumacher
3) Fangio
4) Lauda
5) Brabham

if you don't like it, too bad! There's a reason why it says "My Top 5"

This is surprising. I don't know why but my intuition was that Alonso did the most overtaking considering he qualified around sixth or seventh but was nearly always on the podium. And he almost always had a couple of victims in the opening laps. Strange...

Good for Vettel though. He certainly can fight through the pack.

If it was so excellent, why did it keep breaking down? It cost Lewis 2 Grand Prix wins and 50 points minimum and Button too.

Red Bull had the best combination of car and pit-crew yet somehow their preferred driver took until the very last weekend to edge out the team with the 3rd/4th fastest car. This is not particularly impressive any more than it was in 2010 when the same thing happened.

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We want heroes, but there are few, mainly it's cars - Pedro De La Rosa

Are there stats for how many were overtakes in a straight line? I assume most were under breaking or traction.

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I find television very educating. Every time somebody turns on the set, I go into the other room and read a book.

Marx (Groucho)

The upper argument is flawed nontheless, a bigger number of overtakes, makes no one to the best overtaker, it only shows, for whatever reason, the guy with the most overtakes was more times behind other cars than others.
DRS spoiled those stats over the last few years nontheless
2010 Hamilton was praised for 34 overtakes in 1/2 season, while now someone can do it at 1 race.

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"Everything you can imagine is real." Pablo Picasso

I do know that (almost?) none of his overtakes at Spa were on the Kemmel straight, where just about everybody else was doing DRS-assisted highspeed overtakes.

In Brazil, it was just about anywhere on track as long as it rained.

In Abu Dhabi, I think most of them were DRS-assisted overtakes, since he had good topspeed there due to his setup.

Norbert, is that you?

Is there anywhere a stat about real overtakes without DRS

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Obviously he underperformed in qualifying and the supreme pace of the RB8 came to the fore in the race

But really, that Webber is just behind him in most of them probably shows that the RB8 was more of a race than a qualifying car and makes it even more impressive that Vettel secured six poles over the season. Sebastian's record wasn't really hurt with the 21 he scored in Abu Dhabi alone!

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I also have one of these.

Agree about the bold part.
However, when Vettel started from pole and had nobody to overtake, many people concluded "he can't overtake".

I actually think this season proved 2 things (& feel free to disagree)

1. Vettel is not the best qualifier
2. Vettel is one of the best at overtaking (Contrary to views after 2010)

1 - Hamilton has been the best with good margins at many races, Q3 at EVERY race, Vettel has struggled occasionally with a few poor attempts compared to Webber whom last season was dominated in qualy by himself. Even last year Hamilton was 2nd a few times & 1 pole against the fastest qualifying car since Mansell (with 18/19 the RB7 was brilliant in qualy)

2. It was doubted after 2 stupid incidents in 2010 but the past 2 years he's been pretty good with no major gaffes. I still believe there is better out there but he has been good, you can't argue that he's likely to crash anymore (Well after Spain 2011 I seen a difference)

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Close doesn't count

I think you have to remember that in the last few races alone he had more opportunities to pass the cars. Ex. I know that the top 5 statistic looks bulletproof BUT in Austin Vettel started from the back and in Brasil Vettel went to the back also. You have to keep in mind that should you put another top 5 car in the same place Vettel was he would have that car moving up through the field and judging by the fact that in order to be in the top 10 you have to be in front of a top 5 car it may be an equal number of passes to Vettel. I want to see 4 statistics added to this :
1. The number of on track passes between the top 3 teams(and maybe Lotus).
2. The NET passes on track, how many times he was passed vs how many times he passed others.
3. The NET passes in the first addition(top 3/4).
4. The NET passes in positions 1-3/5.
These would give a much clearer image as to his abilities. They would compare him to the part of the field where he can usually be found(the top 3-5).

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Don't be quick to judge or the verdict might come back to you.

I'd challenge that and raise you a certain Lewis Hamilton.

Though I absolutely agree Vettel is a sensational qualifier, he's enjoyed being in a car that proved to be quite consistent, stable and very well balanced on the majority of tracks once the DD was properly developed, and has driven a more refined version each successive year which speaks to stability. Lewis on the other hand has a a different car every year and every year McLaren's cars have been better suited to certain tracks and not some others, and the slightest mistake in setup throws his car's balance off enough that qualifying is a bit of an uphill battle. And still, he manages to pull out times no one ever expected. I'd put Lewis ahead of Seb by the slightest of margins and in the same car I think Lewis would prove to be the better driver but it would be very much Senna/Prost like.

He may have the best record now that Michael has hung his helmet up but one has to wonder "what if" McLaren hadn't cost Lewis those few races this season? "What if" he didn't succumb to the mechanical failures he suffered this year? He'd be a 2-time Champion just the same as Vettel.

Then "What if" Fernando wasn't taken out of 2 races this year through no fault of his own? He'd now be the 3-time champion on the grid.

And please, this is not to take anything away from Vettel as he won it fair and square, but the reality is that both Hamilton and Alonso lost it and Vettel took advantage of their misfortunes. just... "What if?"

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Second place is the first loser!

Your analysis is based on "What if" while Vettel has already proved a lot and is already a triple world champion at 25.



What if Vettel had gone on to win in Valencia? Alonso would have not gained 25 points, even if he finished second, which is unlikely he would have lost a net 25+7 = 32 points, so he would be a net 32 points down. What if Vettel's alternator did not blow up in Monza, what if the stewards in Italy had not given a drive-thru to Vettel for his move on Alonso? What if Vettel was not under-fueled in Abu Dhabi, he would have won the race when Hamilton retired. What if Karthikeyan had not slowed down Vettel at the esses in Austin, Vettel was defending very well for 2/3 of the race and I have no reason to believe he would have not won the race. What if Vettel was not involved in the first lap incident in Brazil? What if they had not made an extra stop for tires in Brazil? Hamilton is a good driver, but Vettel has 281 points to his 190 (a significant difference), Vetel won the championship, Hamilton was fourth.

Quote:

Then "What if" Fernando wasn't taken out of 2 races this year through no fault of his own? He'd now be the 3-time champion on the grid.

I have a huge problem with this. Alonso was at fault in Japan, he kept squeezing Kimi to the extend that Kimi had his wheels on the grass and absolutely nowhere to go. What if in Valencia the safety car was not called and closed the gap, caused Hamilton and co to pit and cause the chaos that gave Alonso several places, what if Grosjean was not sleeping at the restart, what if Vettel's alternator held up, Alonso would have been way down the points, forget the win. What if Massa had not given positions to Alonso in Korea? What if Massa had not given position to Alonso in Italy? What if Massa had not given position to Alonso in Austin? What if Ferrari had not broken the seal on Massa's gearbox? What if Massa had not given position to Alonso in Brazil? What if Hamilton and Hulkenberg not come together in Brazil? Alonso would have been in fourth and never even had a chance at the championship?

See what I did there with "What if"? This is what I recall for now, but if I dig deeper I can come up with a lot more of "What ifs" that can put Vettel much further than where he finished. The biggest one is what if the RB8 had an EBD, Vettel would have won the championsip with 4-5 races to go just like he did in 2011.

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Sebastian Vettel: "I don't praise myself". I am not Fernando Alonso.

"What if's" all bollocks though isn't it, it's all speculation and counts for nothing, no amount of what if whining changes reality, it's sore losers that simply don't want to see the numbers that invent speculative what if scenarios should reality not fit with their "unbeatable" driver zzzzz...

Reality check :

1 Sebastian Vettel - Red Bull – 281
2 Fernando Alonso - Ferrari – 278
3 Kimi Raikkonen - Lotus – 207
4 Lewis Hamilton - McLaren – 190
5 Jenson Button - McLaren - 188

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o·ver·rat·ed - overestimation of skills or abilities, anything that is given too much credit and hype.

What... 3xWDC can Overtake...

I CAN HAS EXPLANATION?!

CAN I HAS?

Interesting stats. From my "expert" analysis:

First it seems that Red Bull wasn't as bad in the race as it's claimed by many. Both Vettel and Webber lead the total numbers.

Second, it seems Vettel doesn't deserve anymore the question mark about his overtaking skill. He's not perfect yet but he can overtake apparently and do it cleanly most of the times.

Third, we need to look beyond the numbers. Usually a high number of overtakes reflects negatively on a driver IMO because it shows they haven't been racing in their proper position. Most of the times this is on the driver because of bad qualifying, bad starts, spins and errors, penalties, and bad race management overall. However there are other reasons such as bad pit stops, bad strategies, team errors, tire failures and even non-fault incidents. In the case of the Red Bull drivers I think all of the above have applied one time or another. The question is how much has each one affected them.

While Vettel is apparently a very good overtaker as these numbers show, he may not be the best overtaker on the grid. In my opinion, Hamilton and Kobayashi are better. This year Vettel did more overtakings than any other drivers, but remember also that he was forced to race from dead last twice, not counting Spa when he lost places avoiding debris in the 1st corner. Hamilton was forced to race from the last only once, I think that's what makes the difference in the numbers. The more you have to start from behind, the more opportunity you have to overtake, of course if you have a top car (will never work if you drive an HRT for example).

It was great in the race all season. Then the quali pace suddenly changed.

Er, as i said... not the most competent team (and you've even quoted as much), and that was true for the best part of the year. McLaren themselves claim that they had the best car out there. Why don't you go and correct Sam Michael and Martin while you're at it. Also, may run this by Ron and see what he has to say. McLaren were transitioning, and it showed in the mistakes they made. It was pretty much par for the course, and if anything expect to see some silly mistakes next year as well, as Perez settles in. If they make fewer than what they did this year, that should be good enough for winning WCC. Just to put what i said in perspective, RBR had 460 points, to 378 of McLaren. Given the failures McLaren suffered, the gap is nearly not big enough.

RBR also had breakdowns including one where Alonso went onto win... but they were fewer and spread out between their drivers and i'll be ready to admit as much. However, they were nowhere near the pure speed of Macca when Macca was on song and except 5 odd races when they had to make revisions, they were on song. Ferrari while slower, had better reliability than both RBR and Macca, and no i'm not blaming them for doing a good job. Had Alonso not been knocked out in Belgium and Japan, he'd have had won the WDC and with some breathing space for that matter. While we're at it, even with Felipe's piss poor start to the season, Ferrari scored 400 to 460 of RBR. What does that tell you? Ferrari have been masters at strategy and operations since Schumacher era... with notable exceptions made in '08, they have been more than competent since over a decade when it comes to that. Though, if you weren't new to F1, you would already know that. Just watch the MagnyCours GP, from '04 where Ferrari are supposed to have one of the most dominant cars ever. They had to make 4 pit-stops to beat Alonso, who only stopped 3 times. I still think it was the driver and the team who beat Alonso in a better car in that race.

What is also noteworthy is Ferrari themselves admitted more than a handful of times this season, that they were good at race-pace, but not so much on it, when it came to qualifying and that disadvantaged them a bit. This is very important to remember as both Vettel and Webber are indeed qualifying specialists. Let me also add, that the gap at the beginning of the season was bigger between Ferrari and RBR when it came to race pace, but sometime after 1/3rd of the season, it wasn't so drastic, if any at all.

If you're genuinely asking me, and not nitpicking, i'll readily admit that Alonso was the most deserving this year. However, Vettel also made very few mistakes. most notable one in Malaysia, and another in Brazil. He literally was dead last at the end of lap 1 and he came through the field to win enough points, and that in a car which was on life support. If you're not impressed, then i don't know what to say.

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My Top 5 drivers of all times:
1) Prost/ Schumacher
3) Fangio
4) Lauda
5) Brabham

if you don't like it, too bad! There's a reason why it says "My Top 5"

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My Top 5 drivers of all times:
1) Prost/ Schumacher
3) Fangio
4) Lauda
5) Brabham

if you don't like it, too bad! There's a reason why it says "My Top 5"

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I agree that this statistic should not imply that Vettel is the best overtaker in the field, though he's clearly a good one. Also, overtaking takes practice, and the more time Vettel spends amidst cars, the better he'll get at judging an overtake.

However, I don't agree that Lewis and Komui are the best overtakers. They're certainly the most daring ones, but I feel that they take too many risks and rely heavily on cooperation from other drivers to pull off their moves. A lot of their moves involve outbraking their rival even when coming from far behind and have been helped in many cases by the other driver taking evasive action to avoid a crash, thus slowing down much more than a proper wheel-to-wheel combat would entail.

I do think that Alonso and Kimi are probably the best overtakers in field. They never seem to take major risks. I believe a sign of a good overtaker is also when they get overtaken well, and when Fernie and Kimi have been passed by quicker cars, they have always made it difficult but seem to yield at some point rather than risk a crash.

Can you provide a news article for that? Not that I don't believe you - I do. But I could use that material myself

How can anyone bring this up? Everyone on the grid has the chance to do exactly what Vettel and Red Bull did. Everyone can alter the setup of the car and start at the pitlane.

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Räikkönen - Vettel - Rosberg - Bottas

...forget Vettel! the most interesting thing for me was Felipe in the top 5 on all those lists (any combination). granted he qualified rather poorly (at least in the first half of the year) but remember, he also spent the last 4-5 races playing rear-guard to Alonso so (in theory) he could have ended up even better.

take that, all you Felipe bashers!

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go Felipe, baby!

Its very obvious that when you get sent to the back of the grid in the best car you will naturally have more overtakes.

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Supporting in 2012:
Mark Webber.
Lewis Hamilton.

This is a Formula 1 forum, typically people who understand Formula 1 will post here so you can expect proper answers to the thread, yes.

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Supporting in 2012:
Mark Webber.
Lewis Hamilton.

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Sebastian Vettel: "I don't praise myself". I am not Fernando Alonso.

As much as I'm a Vettel fan, a lot of his overtakes were down to circumstance. Spinning in Brazil and his DSQ from quali in Abu Dhabi. When you look at other races, you see either him finishing lower than he started or maybe even those races he started at/near the front and finished there.

On to the quality, Hamilton still has a better style of overtake, Senna-esqe you could say. Vettel's improved a lot in the last year or two, even he does push it to the limit (read lines) too often. I think by Hamilton's age he'll be equal or better to him now, if he needs it. If he keeps qualifying fast in good race cars, he won't need to overtake as often, pasty of the reason why he's had less experience doing this than others.

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"We can not drive slower, just to make the races more exciting." Alain Prost

Karthikeyan?

Imo Vettel isn't an amazing qualifier, but he is good. He isn't an great overtaker but he is decent, but where I think he really excels is race strategy, RBR invariably manage him superbly on track in maximising his return. It's little wonder he shouts at them to 'do something!'

Personally I think Hamilton is the best qualifier and racer but Alonso picks his battles better, he is definitely the most intelligent driver out there.

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We want heroes, but there are few, mainly it's cars - Pedro De La Rosa

You mean the incident where Karthikeyan turned into Vettels rear tyre instead of keeping at the left side of the track, where Vettel had left enough space? And the marshalls deemed Karthikeyan to be in the wrong?

Bro, I've been watching since 1991 (true story)

The McLaren car was fast at times but not reliable enough to be called excellent. Not sure why you've gone into essay-mode but I'm glad we're in agreement on Alonso and no I didn't find Vettel's drive in Brazil particularly impressive, not only did he go backwards from the start and cause the crash (weirdly no investigation?) but he had to be helped up the field by his teammate numerous times, safety cars, toro rossos and michael schumacher. That isn't to say I think he's not a good driver, there were good races from him in Germany(?) and Belgium (I think) but yeah like you I believe Alonso is this year's Numero Uno.

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We want heroes, but there are few, mainly it's cars - Pedro De La Rosa