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how would have vettel performed with ferrari's 2012 car?
better then alonso 29%  29%  [ 37 ]
similar to alonso 22%  22%  [ 28 ]
not good as alonso 50%  50%  [ 64 ]
Total votes : 129
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:30 pm 
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just got me thinking how would have vettel feared in the ferrari 2012 car compared to alonso?

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:32 pm 
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Regarding performance of the car i think better.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:50 pm 
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I don't think there was anything more in that car left for any driver to milk. Vettel is fast but I don't think he has that ability to keep cool and collect points when things are rough like Alonso did in the middle and early season. Not getting involved with anyone that time and capitalising when others faltered is the reason Alonso finished where he did. Not many drivers on grid have that kind of Patience and maturity. Not yet. So I don't think anyone else would have scored more and very few would have come close.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:52 pm 
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You forgot the "no idea - how would I know" -button

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:53 pm 
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I hope you know this thread isn't going to end up anywhere near how you intended it to be.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:39 pm 
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Given that early in the season, when RB were still trying to compensate for the loss of the blown diffuser, Mark was regularly outperforming Seb yet Fernando was trashing Massa in their difficult car, I'm inclined to believe that Seb would have initially struggled.

I have no doubt he would have got to grips with the car and performed to a similar level eventually though.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:33 am 
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Megamoss wrote:
Given that early in the season, when RB were still trying to compensate for the loss of the blown diffuser, Mark was regularly outperforming Seb yet Fernando was trashing Massa in their difficult car, I'm inclined to believe that Seb would have initially struggled.

I have no doubt he would have got to grips with the car and performed to a similar level eventually though.



This! :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:43 am 
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Impossible to know.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:37 am 
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He would have done much better as he would naturally qualify much better than Alonso, but the main question whether Alonso can handle a top driver like Vettel, Hamilton, Kimi in the same team.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:54 am 
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He would have finished 3 points behind Alonso in the Redbull.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:59 am 
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Would he have been racing himself in the Red Bull, or would Alonso have taken his spot? Would Massa still have been as much of a lap dog but for Vettel this time? Would he have been as comfortable in the car and in the team as Alonso or would he have just marched into the car and started racing? Had he been as comfortable it would mean he had been at Ferrari for years already which means the 2012 Ferrari wouldn't have been the car it was with Alonso.
Etc. etc. My anwer is Sato.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:53 am 
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You can't swap out one variable in a complex equation and expect everything else to stay the same.

When Seb was initially having trouble with a car built for him, how do you expect to figure out how he would do in a car he had nothing to do with?

I can say he would've romped to the title with races to spare, or he would've struggled to even make it to the podium, and both would be equally plausible or equally ridiculous scenarios (take your pick).


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:06 am 
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Megamoss wrote:
Given that early in the season, when RB were still trying to compensate for the loss of the blown diffuser, Mark was regularly outperforming Seb yet Fernando was trashing Massa in their difficult car, I'm inclined to believe that Seb would have initially struggled.

Indeed, on that basis he would have been nowhere.

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I have no doubt he would have got to grips with the car and performed to a similar level eventually though.

A Vettel in the middle of the pack would get involved in too many incidents. What stood out about Alonso this season was his consistency and maximum points return when all around him were going crazy. Vettel isn't cut from that cloth, he is impulsive and error-prone.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:26 am 
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Vettel did struggle in the car made for him. So I don't know what delusional sun anyone is under who believes the RB8 was stellar all year long. Like Alonso, he got her up in the top 5 more often than not in order to remain competitive after poor qualifyings.

6 to 2 in the Australian,
11 to 5 in the Chinese,
9 to 4 at Monaco,
10 to 2 at Germany,
Last (after the wipe out) to 6 in the Brazilian - not a poor qually, but similarly shows a struggle due to the damage to the car.

He kept her in contention in other races where the RB8 simply didn't have the get up and go for him too:

7 to 6 Spain,
1 to 4 Canada,
4 to 3 Silverstone,
2 to 5 in Germany,
3 to 4 in Hungary,
1 to 2 in the USA

Slipping forward bits or backward bits, he kept it in the double digits for results, which greatly aided his championship bid in this second set of pre-break races.

All of the races listed showed Vettel struggling with the RB8 (including Brazil due to the damage following the incident). Both drivers were struggling with her, as they pointed out. Bahrain, Monaco and Silverstone were the exceptions rather than the rule prior to the break.

So, with that in mind, it is clear that Vettel can work with a struggling car and keep himself in contention.

That said, the answer is still "who knows" because F1 is like a quixotic queen - you simply cannot second guess anything - changing variables makes even guessing for fun an exercise in futility. All I can say is that Vettel would be fine in terms of the struggle. As shown by his own performance, he did not wipe out while racing or starting in the midgrid (Brazil being unique in that regard) and he raced his way forward just fine when he had to, thank you very much.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:37 am 
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bourbon19 wrote:
Vettel did struggle in the car made for him. So I don't know what delusional sun anyone is under who believes the RB8 was stellar all year long. Like Alonso, he got her up in the top 5 more often than not in order to remain competitive after poor qualifyings.

His poor qualifyings, his teammate was beating him so Vettel clearly wasn't getting the maximum out of the car.

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So, with that in mind, it is clear that Vettel can work with a struggling car and keep himself in contention.

Vettel getting beaten by his teammate in an offline car is slightly different to Alonso beating everybody in his dog of a 2012 Ferrari wouldn't you say?

They're not on the same level as drivers, Alonso in an RB would not have taken until the last weekend to win the WDC in 2010 or 2012. Vettel has a very privileged seat right now.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:51 am 
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Webber beating Vettel it is pretty much a flawed view. Vettels performances have been consistently better than Webbers, even in the beginning of the season. If it hadn't been for Valencia and Malaysia, both of which were not his fault, Vettel would always have been very comfortably in front of Webber and all this talk of "where was Vettel when his car wasn't great" wouldn't be there.

Sure, Webber was great in Monaco and at Silverstone, but overall Vettel has driven a pretty consistent season with consistent high finishes.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:13 am 
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How would Vettel perform in a merely decent car when he is used to having the best? Isn't that just the first part of 2009 and 2012? In those periods he was, IMO, not at Alonso's level in terms of extracting every ounce of potential. But it gets interesting when you reverse the question and wonder whether Alonso would have done better than Vettel if he were sharing the RB when it was dominant. I don't know that he would have done.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:27 am 
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I think he would have qualified better than Alonso has, but I don't think he'd get as many podiums. Thats experience for you though, Alonso has more years in F1 under his belt than Vettel does, so that definitely helps.

Funny seeing this thread, I was wondering today actually, what if Alonso was driving the Red Bull with Webber as a team mate who is not willing to play #2?


Last edited by MikeV1987 on Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:35 am, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:32 am 
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Such polls are simply opportunities for forum members to either support their favourite driver or vent their frustration at one they don't like. We will never know the real answer.

But since I am also a memeber ( ;) ), I felt that Vettel could actually do a bit better than Alonso in that Ferrari. The feeling I got was that Massa, a good but not as talented driver as Vettel, could actually have been a lot closer to Alonso if he'd been given a free hand by Ferrari. Also, going by how well Vettel drove in a car with a different setup at Abu Dhabi, I actually feel that the current Ferrari setting will suit him very well.

Because the way the Red Bull is set-up, for front-line qualifying and a quick getaway, many people erraneously assume that is the only way Vettel can drive and win. I believe that the Red Bull set-up is actually doing Vettel an injustice because it forces him to drive only one way - the way we have often seen him do and win. But he is more than capable of competitive racing in the middle and winning from there and the reliability of the Ferrari would have been an added asset.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:13 am 
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I voted worse. Vettel did not look to me very comfortable in the RB at the start of the season before Newey dialled it in. His performance was matched or bettered by his team mate more often than not which leads me to believe that Vettel needs the car to be perfectly suited to his driving style. When he gets that he is near unbeatable. The Ferrari at the start of the season was a handful to drive so I think his issues would have been similar and would not have extracted the maximum as Alonso did. In any case there are too many variables, ifs & buts. These polls are pointless.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:15 am 
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Most likely at least the very same, if not better.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:16 am 
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Zekenwolf wrote:
Such polls are simply opportunities for forum members to either support their favourite driver or vent their frustration at one they don't like. We will never know the real answer.


This, polls are always biased as people just vote for their favorite and not for the one they dislike.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:17 am 
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Zekenwolf wrote:
Such polls are simply opportunities for forum members to either support their favourite driver or vent their frustration at one they don't like. We will never know the real answer.

But since I am also a memeber ( ;) ), I felt that Vettel could actually do a bit better than Alonso in that Ferrari. The feeling I got was that Massa, a good but not as talented driver as Vettel, could actually have been a lot closer to Alonso if he'd been given a free hand by Ferrari. Also, going by how well Vettel drove in a car with a different setup at Abu Dhabi, I actually feel that the current Ferrari setting will suit him very well.

Because the way the Red Bull is set-up, for front-line qualifying and a quick getaway, many people erraneously assume that is the only way Vettel can drive and win. I believe that the Red Bull set-up is actually doing Vettel an injustice because it forces him to drive only one way - the way we have often seen him do and win. But he is more than capable of competitive racing in the middle and winning from there and the reliability of the Ferrari would have been an added asset.


I suppose you mean they were holding Felipe back at the start of the season? This is getting old.

Care to point out how you know he was not given a 'free hand' at Ferrari? Please spare me the gearbox issue and last races where obviously Massa had to play the team driver as given the circumstances and standings it was the only thing he could do.

That assumption is flawed. If they didn't give him a free hand initially why did they do it later? If Massa had started the season like he's finished he wouldn't have to play no.2. As much as I like Felipe as a driver and person he only has himself to blame.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:23 am 
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MikeV1987 wrote:
I think he would have qualified better than Alonso has, but I don't think he'd get as many podiums. Thats experience for you though, Alonso has more years in F1 under his belt than Vettel does, so that definitely helps.

Funny seeing this thread, I was wondering today actually, what if Alonso was driving the Red Bull with Webber as a team mate who is not willing to play #2?

Agree with every point you have made!


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:23 am 
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Vettel had a clash here or there throughout the season - Karthikeyan, Senna, DRS billboard - and if he regularly qualified 7th or 8th I wouldn't expect him to keep it as clean as Alonso did this year.

But who's to say he wouldn't qualify higher than 7th or 8th in the same car?
(Although I must say I have my doubts that he would. Vettel thrives on rear end stability. The Ferrari was anything but stable in qualy conditions.)

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:24 am 
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Lotus38 wrote:
That assumption is flawed. If they didn't give him a free hand initially why did they do it later? If Massa had started the season like he's finished he wouldn't have to play no.2. As much as I like Felipe as a driver and person he only has himself to blame.


Alonso is number one at Ferrari and that's how it is, the only time Massa was allowed to race Alonso at a start of a season was in 2010, but then he got the Alonso is faster then you and after that he got destroyed and never since has Massa challenged him till its to late. Massa is not allowed to race Alonso until later on in the season, if he did he would just be put behind Alonso by either being told or in the pit stop window. On top of that Alonso would kick up a fuss anyway.

What you have to understand is that in no way shape or form is Massa allowed to be a threat to Alonso over the course of a season in the standings. Alonso is the clear number one driver and that's how it is, no driver will be allowed to challenge him without having to yield eventually. We all know how this number one driver policy works.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:34 am 
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Jomox wrote:
the only time Massa was allowed to race Alonso at a start of a season was in 2010

That's not true.

They were also allowed race in 2011.
Code:
Driver AUS MAL CHN  TUR  ESP  MON
FA      4   6   7    3    5    2
FM      7   5   6   11   Ret  Ret

And if Massa was anywhere close to Alonso at the start of 2012 they would have been allowed race.

Code:
AUS Qualy Race
FA   12     5
FM   16    DNF

MAL Qualy Race
FA    9     1
FM   12    15

CHI Qualy Race
FA    9     9
FM   12    13

BAH Qualy Race
FA    9     7
FM   14     9

I could go on but it got much, much worse for Massa from Spain onwards.

How could Ferrari possibly manipulate a result in Alonso's favour if Massa was consistently behind?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:46 am 
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I suppose it all depends on exactly how the Ferrari was underperforming when 'difficult'.

There is a general perception that Vettel shows immense confidence in his car when it has stable rear grip, but is unsure if there is not. This ties in with the change in diffuser created downforce regs, RBR's adaptations to re-establish this, and Sebs performance at the start of the year. If the Ferrari had an unstable rear, then Seb may have been nowhere compared to Fred. If, however, the Ferrari had good rear grip, but was just slow then Seb would probably have been able to handle it just as well...

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:51 am 
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Lotus38 wrote:
His performance was matched or bettered by his team mate more often than not


Absolutely incorrect. Read my above post. Webber was better at Silverstone, Monaco, and China (but not on race day), that's about it.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:57 am 
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Yeah, Alonso is rubbish, barely club racing material. Everybody (including myself, of course) would have performed better than him in that Ferrari. I really don't understand why he is not fired from F1 for being too slow. I'd suggest Ferrari to swift positions with Luca Badoer. Or maybe Délétraz could be a suitable replacement for him.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:01 pm 
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Even allowing for the idiosyncracies of the cars, I felt that Vettel is a better driver of the lighter car than Alonso. With a full load, they are about the same level.

With that in mind, IMO Vettel would have qualified consistently better than Alonso did if the former had been driving the Ferrari. Not perhaps to as many poles or even front rows as with the RB8 but just better than Alonso.

By the same token, Alonso would have fared better in qualifying with a Red Bull than he did with the Ferrari but not quite as well as Vettel did overall. I think qualifying in general is a slight Achilles heel with Alonso.

During the races, Vettel in a Ferrari would probably have taken a little longer than Alonso did to get into attacking positions but once he got there, Vettel would have got further ahead more quickly than Alonso. In many races, Alonso curiously tailed off a bit in the last 10 laps or so of a race.

An interesting point is how the two would have fared if their respective teammates had remained with their teams ie Massa partnering Vettel at Ferrari and Webber with Alonso at Red Bull. Vettel would have got on better with Massa in personal terms but sadly, Ferrari's policy would have meant that Massa would still have been relegated to a very secondary role. Neither driver would have been able to do anything about it.

Likewise at Red Bull, Alonso would have to contend with equal terms for Webber until he was able to be out of reach in terms of points for the WDC. IMO Alonso would have made more of an issue about this and sooner or later would have rubbed Horner and especially Newey on the wrong side. Also Webber, not a tolerant yielder like Massa, would have had more contfrontations with Alonso and the two would have fallen out quickly. A disgruntled Alonso would have complained and left the team after a year or two, just as he did with McLaren.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:03 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
Jomox wrote:
the only time Massa was allowed to race Alonso at a start of a season was in 2010

That's not true.

They were also allowed race in 2011.
Code:
Driver AUS MAL CHN  TUR  ESP  MON
FA      4   6   7    3    5    2
FM      7   5   6   11   Ret  Ret

And if Massa was anywhere close to Alonso at the start of 2012 they would have been allowed race.

Code:
AUS Qualy Race
FA   12     5
FM   16    DNF

MAL Qualy Race
FA    9     1
FM   12    15

CHI Qualy Race
FA    9     9
FM   12    13

BAH Qualy Race
FA    9     7
FM   14     9

I could go on but it got much, much worse for Massa from Spain onwards.

How could Ferrari possibly manipulate a result in Alonso's favour if Massa was consistently behind?

Going off-topic for a moment, I suspect Massa's confidence was destroyed when Alonso was allowed to overtake him when heading into the pit lane.

Schumi did something similar to Barri when he overtook Barri after the last pit stop (can't remember the race, but at a chicane IIRC) - something that was against the 'rules' at Ferrari at the time (free to race until the final pit stop). Similarly, Schumi was applauded by Brawn for being audacious, rather than doing something against team 'rules' and therefore unfair.

Barri was understandably, v angry and subsequently pretty vocal about favouritism. In the same way, Massa understood when overtaken on the pit lane entry, that he was definitely the no. 2 in the team and pretty much gave up. He only improved when he realised that he was going to lose his F1 seat IMO.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:07 pm 
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Porsan wrote:
Yeah, Alonso is rubbish, barely club racing material. Everybody (including myself, of course) would have performed better than him in that Ferrari. I really don't understand why he is not fired from F1 for being too slow. I'd suggest Ferrari to swift positions with Luca Badoer. Or maybe Délétraz could be a suitable replacement for him.

What are you going on about? This thread is wondering how Seb ( 3X WDC) would have compared against Alonso in the '12 Ferrari.

A reasonable thought - although its obviously a question that can never be answered.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:08 pm 
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thank you everyone for your input. interesting read :D

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:09 pm 
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mds wrote:
Webber beating Vettel it is pretty much a flawed view. Vettels performances have been consistently better than Webbers, even in the beginning of the season.

Webber was out-qualifying him and led him the standings until after the halfway point of the season (when Webber started getting gearbox penalties). If Vettel's performances were better how can this be possible?

Quote:
If it hadn't been for Valencia and Malaysia, both of which were not his fault, Vettel would always have been very comfortably in front of Webber and all this talk of "where was Vettel when his car wasn't great" wouldn't be there.

Firstly, Vettel did not beat Webber in Valencia, Webber's DRS failed in quali and he was forced to start from 19th from where he drove to 4th.
Secondly, Webber out-qualified Vettel in Malaysia and the Karthikeyan incident was 50/50.

The other thing is RB consistently have Vettel on a prime race strategy whereas Webber usually gets sent up the left.

Face it bro, when the RB car wasn't 'on it', neither was Vettel. Contrast with Alonso whose car hasn't been on it for most of the season yet he built up a significant WDC lead. They're not in the same class as drivers.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:25 pm 
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Formula1Fan. wrote:
mds wrote:
Webber beating Vettel it is pretty much a flawed view. Vettels performances have been consistently better than Webbers, even in the beginning of the season.

Webber was out-qualifying him and led him the standings until after the halfway point of the season (when Webber started getting gearbox penalties). If Vettel's performances were better how can this be possible?

Quote:
If it hadn't been for Valencia and Malaysia, both of which were not his fault, Vettel would always have been very comfortably in front of Webber and all this talk of "where was Vettel when his car wasn't great" wouldn't be there.

Firstly, Vettel did not beat Webber in Valencia, Webber's DRS failed in quali and he was forced to start from 19th from where he drove to 4th.
Secondly, Webber out-qualified Vettel in Malaysia and the Karthikeyan incident was 50/50.

The other thing is RB consistently have Vettel on a prime race strategy whereas Webber usually gets sent up the left.

Face it bro, when the RB car wasn't 'on it', neither was Vettel. Contrast with Alonso whose car hasn't been on it for most of the season yet he built up a significant WDC lead. They're not in the same class as drivers.

Similarly, Alonso under-performed for the last couple of races compared to Massa - who had an appalling beginning to the season for whatever reason/s.

IMO :lol: , Alonso was 'lucky' at the beginning of the season - when nobody had any idea what was going to happen next, resulting in him building up a points advantage in a pretty poor car.

The Ferrari improved as the season progressed, enabling him to hold on to a decreasing lead (as other cars improved too).

Whilst I agree that Seb received the "prime race strategy" this season, do you seriously doubt that the same didn't apply to Alonso?

Finally, I hope you're not referring to Alonso/Seb in the comment "They're not in the same class as drivers". They are BOTH at the 'top of the tree' when it comes to current F1 drivers - and I find it seriously annoying when anyone says otherwise. They both have their faults obviously, but to argue that one is not in the same class as the other is ridiculous.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:35 pm 
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Formula1Fan. wrote:
Webber was out-qualifying him


Sunday gets you the points, not Saturday.

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and led him the standings until after the halfway point of the season (when Webber started getting gearbox penalties). If Vettel's performances were better how can this be possible?


Because of Valencia and Malaysia.

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Firstly, Vettel did not beat Webber in Valencia, Webber's DRS failed in quali and he was forced to start from 19th from where he drove to 4th.


What are you saying? Webbers DRS failed so he beat Vettel?

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Secondly, Webber out-qualified Vettel in Malaysia and the Karthikeyan incident was 50/50.


Again: qualifying doesn't get you points. Vettel trounced Webber on race day.
And the Karthikeyan incident was not 50/50, it was on Karthikeyan. Vettel left enough space, Karthikeyan cut up to the right, steered away from the track edge, when Vettel was still there. Even ignoring the fact that he was a backmarker being lapped, that was his mistake. This view was shared by the marshalls.

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Face it bro, when the RB car wasn't 'on it', neither was Vettel.


I'm proving you that that's rubbish.

edit: I'll give you that his qualifying performance for the first few races wasn't stellar, but on race day he has generally had very consistent performances and has beaten Webber pretty convincingly. Except ofcourse for Monaco and Silverstone, and in China where Vettel couldn't make up for his bad qualifying but still had great race pace.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:11 pm 
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LKS1 wrote:
Going off-topic for a moment, I suspect Massa's confidence was destroyed when Alonso was allowed to overtake him when heading into the pit lane.

I don't really think there was an allowed/not allowed judgement made. Alonso basically just nailed him before they both had to stop.

To be fair Massa went through the puddle and lost grip. I wouldn't expect a driver like Alonso to hold station. I very much doubt a Hamilton or Vettel type driver would hold station either.
I guess that's why they're winners.

Anywho, I do agree with you. That also for me was the point at which Alonso said "This is my team now".

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:38 pm 
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He'd have been crap as he relies heavily on downforce, without it he cant get going.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:39 pm 
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RickM wrote:
He'd have been crap as he relies heavily on downforce, without it he cant get going.


That's pretty much where Abu Dhabi comes in. Seems like he got going pretty well.


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