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Who would do better in an F1 Spec Series?
Vettel 13%  13%  [ 17 ]
Webber 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Alonso 21%  21%  [ 27 ]
Massa 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Hamilton 34%  34%  [ 44 ]
Button 3%  3%  [ 4 ]
Raikkonen 9%  9%  [ 12 ]
Grosjean 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Schumacher 5%  5%  [ 6 ]
Rosberg 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Hulkenberg 3%  3%  [ 4 ]
Di Resta 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Maldonado 2%  2%  [ 2 ]
Senna 1%  1%  [ 1 ]
Perez 1%  1%  [ 1 ]
Kobayashi 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Ricciardo 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Vergne 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Kovalainen 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Petrov 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Karthikeyan 6%  6%  [ 8 ]
Super Pedro 2%  2%  [ 2 ]
Pic 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Glock 1%  1%  [ 1 ]
Total votes : 129
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:45 am 
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Purely hypothetical here, but Formula 1 has a tendency to be plagued with the "so and so's car is better, so ofcourse he wins" and such, particularly with Vettel/Red Bull, and claims that he wouldn't win without the car. So I was just wondering, if every driver on the 2012 grid was in the same car (say, the RB8), who do you think would come top trumps?

So, what do you think?

PS, I've included Webber just because he's on the grid, even though he's already driven and been beaten in the same car...

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:55 am 
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Even in a spec series you can say the car suits a specific driver over another, if it has good traction out of the corners I'd be inclined to say Vettel, if the car moves around a lot I'd be more in the direction of saying its Hamilton, but i feel like the guy who could adapt to the car and make it stick would be Alonso.

But without the teams and the permutations you get from driving for a specific team, whats the point of the sport? If it was just about the drivers honestly F1 would be quite boring.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:04 am 
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Gelm wrote:
Even in a spec series you can say the car suits a specific driver over another, if it has good traction out of the corners I'd be inclined to say Vettel, if the car moves around a lot I'd be more in the direction of saying its Hamilton, but i feel like the guy who could adapt to the car and make it stick would be Alonso.

But without the teams and the permutations you get from driving for a specific team, whats the point of the sport? If it was just about the drivers honestly F1 would be quite boring.


Oh I totally agree, I wouldn't want it to become a spec series at all. But with all the "so and so's car is rubbish", "so and so could win in that car" I thought it'd be interesting to see people's opinions.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:15 am 
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Lets say for the sake of argument that in this spec series every car was identical, the tyres didn't benefit any driver (impossible IMO) and every team operated with maximum efficiency - it would just be balls out racing wouldn't it?
I hate to say it but probably Hamilton.
He's just got a natural flair that very few of the others have ever demonstrated.

But in the real world natural flair is often worth bugger all, which would be one of the reasons to explain why I put Alonso on top in the F1 we have.

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Last edited by mcdo on Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:15 am 
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As Alonso and Hamilton are always telling eachother these days, they're the ones who have proved they can adapt to anything and be superfast.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:22 am 
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mcdo wrote:
Lets say for the sake of argument that in this spec series every car was identical, the tyres didn't benefit any driver (impossible IMO) and every team operated with maximum efficiency - it would just be balls out racing wouldn't it?I hate to say it but probably Hamilton.
He's just got a natural flair that very few of the others have ever demonstrated.

But in the real world natural flair is often worth bugger all, which would be one of the reasons to explain why I put Alonso on top in the F1 we have.


Basically, yeah :D

I should've called it "Who'd do better in balls out racing?" shouldn't I?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:41 am 
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Here's what I expect


99% will vote for the driver they support
1% will vote for a different driver by mistake


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:43 am 
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F1nsider wrote:
Here's what I expect


99% will vote for the driver they support
1% will vote for a different driver by mistake

Afraid not!

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:14 pm 
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F1nsider wrote:
Here's what I expect


99% will vote for the driver they support
1% will vote for a different driver by mistake


If that's the case Kimi will probably run away with it!

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:35 pm 
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Senna88 wrote:
F1nsider wrote:
Here's what I expect


99% will vote for the driver they support
1% will vote for a different driver by mistake


If that's the case Kimi will probably run away with it!


Currently Kimi's tied with Karthikeyan... either Kimi's perceived to be equal skill with the world's fastest Indian, or just as popular haha. :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:41 pm 
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jammin78 wrote:
Senna88 wrote:
F1nsider wrote:
Here's what I expect


99% will vote for the driver they support
1% will vote for a different driver by mistake


If that's the case Kimi will probably run away with it!


Currently Kimi's tied with Karthikeyan... either Kimi's perceived to be equal skill with the world's fastest Indian, or just as popular haha. :lol:


Yeah I should of looked at the poll a little closer before commenting!

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Respect: Eyebrow man, Schumi and finally after three long years Sebastian Vettel. Fairplay to the guy he is quick!
Still don't like: Di Resta and his neck glassing team mate


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:42 pm 
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It would depend on to who's liking the 'spec' was wouldn't it?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:49 pm 
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jammin78 wrote:
Senna88 wrote:
F1nsider wrote:
Here's what I expect


99% will vote for the driver they support
1% will vote for a different driver by mistake


If that's the case Kimi will probably run away with it!


Currently Kimi's tied with Karthikeyan... either Kimi's perceived to be equal skill with the world's fastest Indian, or just as popular haha. :lol:

Or 99% of people don't just vote for their favourite.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:51 pm 
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Balibari wrote:
jammin78 wrote:
Senna88 wrote:
F1nsider wrote:
Here's what I expect


99% will vote for the driver they support
1% will vote for a different driver by mistake


If that's the case Kimi will probably run away with it!


Currently Kimi's tied with Karthikeyan... either Kimi's perceived to be equal skill with the world's fastest Indian, or just as popular haha. :lol:

Or 99% of people don't just vote for their favourite.


So many possibilities... :P

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:09 pm 
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If everyone was in the same car and tyres were not an issue then I would say the person at the top would be whoever Mr McMahon.... sorry Mr E wants to be at the top, it would be the person that he could make the most money out of, which at the moment would be Vetel.

You could take any of the current drivers on the grid and if the car suited their style 100% compared to the other drivers then everyone else is going to have a very hard time beating them.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:31 pm 
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aftershocksinthebath wrote:
If everyone was in the same car and tyres were not an issue then I would say the person at the top would be whoever Mr McMahon.... sorry Mr E wants to be at the top, it would be the person that he could make the most money out of, which at the moment would be Vetel.

You could take any of the current drivers on the grid and if the car suited their style 100% compared to the other drivers then everyone else is going to have a very hard time beating them.

I don't know. I find it hard to believe Vettel would be a bigger draw than Hamilton, especially in an important market like the USA.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:34 pm 
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Another quick question, if we're saying that it depends greatly on who the single spec car suits (i.e. the RB8 suits Vettel's driving style) and that certain drivers will be disadvantaged, does that make the various feeder series' unfair given they are usually spec series? If these series don't suit a driver's style and they flounder, its impossible to tell if they could have been above par in an F1 car, as the car wasn't to their liking. A kid may be absolute class of the field in the spec GP3 series, shockingly inconsistent in GP2, but then really struggle with an F1 car, only to move to a different team and be incredible. Look at Kobayashi, who hasn't got a great GP2 Asia record, but impressed in F1. How many others who haven't shone in lower series would have done the same or better if they'd been given a chance?

Is motorsport inherently unfair whether it's spec or non spec? Or will the cream always rise to the top?

PS - did I say 'quick' question?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:37 pm 
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Its an impossible question to answer.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:37 pm 
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I'm not a Hamilton supporter but I'm pretty convinced he'd win. He has the speed and racecraft, Alonso wouldn't be able to adapt or outsmart like he does now, Vettel wouldn't be able to do the optimized strategy thing he does - e.g. qualifying up front and having the car set-up to lead.
Raikonnen would be up there as well.

I think one to lose out would be Button.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:51 pm 
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Suprised 1 other person has voted for schumi. People forget that at roc and other equivalent races. Michael is consistently up there fighting it out with the others.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:55 pm 
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jammin78 wrote:
Another quick question, if we're saying that it depends greatly on who the single spec car suits (i.e. the RB8 suits Vettel's driving style) and that certain drivers will be disadvantaged, does that make the various feeder series' unfair given they are usually spec series? If these series don't suit a driver's style and they flounder, its impossible to tell if they could have been above par in an F1 car, as the car wasn't to their liking. A kid may be absolute class of the field in the spec GP3 series, shockingly inconsistent in GP2, but then really struggle with an F1 car, only to move to a different team and be incredible. Look at Kobayashi, who hasn't got a great GP2 Asia record, but impressed in F1. How many others who haven't shone in lower series would have done the same or better if they'd been given a chance?

Is motorsport inherently unfair whether it's spec or non spec? Or will the cream always rise to the top?

PS - did I say 'quick' question?


That is a very good point. But how else can you decide which kid is the best? Giving them the same car is the least unfair way.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:01 pm 
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Karthikeyan! He's even stevens with Raikkonen and Button


Last edited by phyz on Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:02 pm 
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VDV23 wrote:
jammin78 wrote:
Another quick question, if we're saying that it depends greatly on who the single spec car suits (i.e. the RB8 suits Vettel's driving style) and that certain drivers will be disadvantaged, does that make the various feeder series' unfair given they are usually spec series? If these series don't suit a driver's style and they flounder, its impossible to tell if they could have been above par in an F1 car, as the car wasn't to their liking. A kid may be absolute class of the field in the spec GP3 series, shockingly inconsistent in GP2, but then really struggle with an F1 car, only to move to a different team and be incredible. Look at Kobayashi, who hasn't got a great GP2 Asia record, but impressed in F1. How many others who haven't shone in lower series would have done the same or better if they'd been given a chance?

Is motorsport inherently unfair whether it's spec or non spec? Or will the cream always rise to the top?

PS - did I say 'quick' question?


That is a very good point. But how else can you decide which kid is the best? Giving them the same car is the least unfair way.


I can't think of any fairer way, but it's just something else that sprung to mind as people mentioned driving styles suiting the imaginary spec car. I often think too much about things haha.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:06 pm 
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I voted for Alonso - he's a v talented driver and has the experience to not make stupid mistakes.

Mind you, it would have been Schumi hands down before his first retirement IMO!


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:13 pm 
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wire2004 wrote:
Suprised 1 other person has voted for schumi. People forget that at roc and other equivalent races. Michael is consistently up there fighting it out with the others.

Yes, given an equal car I've no doubt that Schumi would still be close to the top compared to the best nowadays. He'd win odd races, but not the majority. He's already proven his point, so doesn't need to pursue it so aggressively.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:16 pm 
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LKS1 wrote:
I voted for Alonso - he's a v talented driver and has the experience to not make stupid mistakes.


Would they be able to give full attention to one car though?


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:30 pm 
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I have no idea how Hamilton is on top. For two years running he's finished well behind Alonso in a much better car, I can't see any reason to think he'd be competitive if Alonso was driving something as fast as the McLaren. After all, in 2008 when Alonso was in by far the worst form of his career thanks to the poor relationship with the team (warranted or otherwise), and despite being a rookie Hamilton seemed to be a more consistent and better driver than he's been in recent seasons, they were still neck and neck. On current form you'd have to think Alonso would blow him away in equal machinery.

The question is where Vettel would come relative to those two, which is much harder to benchmark with the evidence available. I have a hunch that he'd be right up there with Alonso and it would be a close battle, the question marks over whether he can race from anywhere other than pole were put to bed this season and he's shown he's got a lot of fight to go with his pace.


As for other drivers, I think Schumacher would still be competitive, the amount of bad luck he's had this season was unreal and when you actually unravel performances he's been consistently a lot stronger than Rosberg (who was highly rated before joining Mercedes), and in the few races where he has had the opportunity he's seized it well. I think he'd be in the second group with Hamilton, Button and maybe Raikkonen. I'm not convinced Kimi is as good as the Lotus and his erratic team-mate make him look, he's still the same guy who couldn't get the better of Massa at Ferrari.

Then there's some wild cards. In competitive machinery, who's to say someone like Hulkenberg wouldn't shine and come out on top? We just don't know.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 3:19 pm 
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Well in your question you say to use the RB8 as the car. This is an important thing I think most people are skipping. Even in a spec series the car is very important and how the car reacts in certain situations will effect drivers differently. I dont have a doubt it would be Vettel at the top if the spec car was a RB8, it already suits his style and passing would be nearly impossible. Fernando is not a good enough qualifier to win a spec series (if all the cars are equal you wont have very much passing). Hamilton is fast but I would suspect the car suiting Vettel would give SV the edge over Hamilton.

The biggest determining factors are the drivers qualifying pace and how the car works with the drivers style.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:03 pm 
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steoc4 wrote:
I have no idea how Hamilton is on top. For two years running he's finished well behind Alonso in a much better car, I can't see any reason to think he'd be competitive if Alonso was driving something as fast as the McLaren.


First of all, while Lewis had a shocker by his own standards last year, I can't believe that people still need to have it pointed out that he's not really put a foot wrong this year, and that McLaren unreliability and team mistakes cost him around 100 points.

Second, I can't believe it needs saying that Lewis and Fernando have both shared the McLaren drive in Lewis's first year when they finished level on points.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:55 am 
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All the top drivers kicked butt in the lower formula spec series. So it would be anyone's game on any given day.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:16 am 
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If it was possible to create a perfect spec scenario, I would say Hamilton would edge it. But, only by a small fraction. But really, the likes of Alonso, Vettel, Kimi and Hamilton could win it on their day.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:16 am 
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Let's face it, it's Fernando or Lewis...

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:18 pm 
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Hamilton or Alonso, closely followed by Raikkonen, Perez, Grosjean and Hulkenberg. Vettel wasn't any special in spec series, only 5th in F3 in 2005, 2nd in 2006 with losing title to teammate di Resta and in 2007 eventhough he was leading WsbR before switching to F1, it was only done with 1 win and 1 pole position, feat achieved by 'great' drivers like Mikhail Aleshin, Pippa Mann, Miguel Molina, Guillaume Moreau, Charlie Kimball (1 pole position each) and Mikhail Aleshin, Salvador Durán, Davide Valsecchi, Filipe Albuquerque, Alejandro Núñez (1 win each). In his F1 debut he was 5 tenths per lap slower than Heidfeld and only when he started driving Newey rocketships, with his teams listening to his every wish and ignoring second driver, he was suddenly rated as a special driver. That's why I think he would struggle badly in euqal cars and he would finish such races/championship in the midfield.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:24 pm 
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jammin78 wrote:
Senna88 wrote:
F1nsider wrote:
Here's what I expect


99% will vote for the driver they support
1% will vote for a different driver by mistake


If that's the case Kimi will probably run away with it!


Currently Kimi's tied with Karthikeyan... either Kimi's perceived to be equal skill with the world's fastest Indian, or just as popular haha. :lol:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World's_Fastest_Indian


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:28 pm 
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KingOfSpa wrote:
jammin78 wrote:
Senna88 wrote:
F1nsider wrote:
Here's what I expect


99% will vote for the driver they support
1% will vote for a different driver by mistake


If that's the case Kimi will probably run away with it!


Currently Kimi's tied with Karthikeyan... either Kimi's perceived to be equal skill with the world's fastest Indian, or just as popular haha. :lol:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World's_Fastest_Indian

Thought someone might put that up haha, I've got the DVD!

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:10 pm 
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Gotta be Alonso, Raikkonen or Hamilton hasn't it? Not quite sure who I really think would be the absolute top guy but I'm tempted to say Alonso.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:50 pm 
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Certainly Timo Glock would be among those who'd improve the most from where they tend to finish now.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:58 pm 
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Armchair Expert wrote:
Hamilton or Alonso, closely followed by Raikkonen, Perez, Grosjean and Hulkenberg. Vettel wasn't any special in spec series, only 5th in F3 in 2005, 2nd in 2006 with losing title to teammate di Resta and in 2007 eventhough he was leading WsbR before switching to F1, it was only done with 1 win and 1 pole position, feat achieved by 'great' drivers like Mikhail Aleshin, Pippa Mann, Miguel Molina, Guillaume Moreau, Charlie Kimball (1 pole position each) and Mikhail Aleshin, Salvador Durán, Davide Valsecchi, Filipe Albuquerque, Alejandro Núñez (1 win each). In his F1 debut he was 5 tenths per lap slower than Heidfeld and only when he started driving Newey rocketships, with his teams listening to his every wish and ignoring second driver, he was suddenly rated as a special driver. That's why I think he would struggle badly in euqal cars and he would finish such races/championship in the midfield.


You seem to have an agenda with Vettels performance, or why else did you leave out 2004? He won 18 out of 20 races in the Formula BMW ADAC spec series.
I guess he would do pretty well. Your attempt to downgrade Vettels class smells of bitterness.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:47 pm 
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I think it would be a very close 4-6 driver battle between Schumacher, Hamilton, Vettel, Alonso, Massa, Kimi, and possibly a Grosjean or Maldonado. Perez might be included in that as well but with identical cars some tracks will suit different drivers' strengths and tastes and in the end they would trade a few victories with one emerging the victor by a not so big margin.

If I had to put Money my heart says Schumacher but if I'm using my head I don't know who I'd go with between him and Hamilton. I just think that Hamilton showed that when he's close to the top pace he can will himself to push that much farther to get pole positions and to force his way into first position better than anyone. We all know the same is true of Michael and Vettel and Alonso for me run a VERY close 2nd and when Massa is in Top form there's no one he can't beat. Kimi for me has the abilities and talent to beat everyone but he is mentally too much of a hothead at times so I would see him cost himself a few victory in situations where the others would not.

Of course it's very tough for any one driver to dominate every race of a spec series loaded with nothing but champions, but I think of them all, when they are on Michael and Lewis are the hardest to beat.

Will have to think on this for a bit before I cast my vote.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 11:36 pm 
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Bruce_70 wrote:
You seem to have an agenda with Vettels performance, or why else did you leave out 2004? He won 18 out of 20 races in the Formula BMW ADAC spec series.
I guess he would do pretty well. Your attempt to downgrade Vettels class smells of bitterness.


Because Formula BMW isn't a series I rate. GP3, GP2, WsbR and F3 back in the day are all categories with good competition and from such results we can take who's special and who's not.

How Vettel can be special and the one to shine in spec series if he:

-lost to di Resta in equal cars in the same team in 2006
-during 2,5 years in F3 and WsbR he scored only 2 pole positions, 5 wins and 7 fastest laps?

And now suddenly in 5,5 years he's the youngest 3 WDC, with 36 pole positions, 26 wins and 15 fastest laps, all achieved against the best drivers in the world and on a grid which is universally accepted as the strongest since 25 years.

In equal cars he was only good driver and in F1, when car is everything, he is dominating. I think the answer why is that is pretty clear.

So yes, I think in equal cars, on equal conditions without any prefferential treatment, Vettel would struggle somewhere in upper midfield.


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