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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:15 pm 
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Manufacturers don't want it to be a driver's sport. Without engineering relevance to the real world, there's no point in manufacturers participating.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:19 pm 
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wtf are they doing, less power, more downforce, these cars are gonna be so easy to drive soon. They already dont push the boundaries as it is now.

I thought they wanted to increase overtaking. GET RID OF THE RIDICULOUS AERO DEVELOPMENT.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:34 pm 
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Deep_blue wrote:
There´s something I really still don´t understand quite well:

"The minimum weight limit has been raised to compensate for additional power unit weight"

So basically they are saying that the new 1.6L turbo V6 will be heavier than the current 2.4L V8 current engines? At the same time I don´t think the fuel economy can be THAT different, I don´t think it can be more than a 3% or so, so why botter in making a new, heavier, less powerful engine, I still don´t get it.
It could be different if there weren´t blow and RPM restrictions so tight and engines could put more Hp than current ones, but sadly it´s not the case


The key words are "power unit", not power plant. In almost every case, a smaller displacement engine with 25% less cylinders and designed for the same task should be smaller and lighter. That part is true. But there are a lot of additional equipment that figures into the "power Unit" equation. KERS will be doubled in capacity, and they will be able to use it more. So that entails a larger battery, motor/generator, and associated increases in strengthening the drivetrain. Then there is the added turbo, with it's HERS system, more equipment and mass.

The end result will be that the entire power unit will be slightly heavier, but be more efficient, and allow the emerging technology of KERS, HERS, and associated controls to compensate for (even replace) the lost cylinders and displacement.

But many of the reasons for the change are political. The FIA has to at least appear to have "greener" engines to quell the sharp criticism of some parties supporting a greener earth. Most of the manufacturers (and I am strongly opposed to allowing manufacturers any sway in the rules) can match up the new engine format with their production cars. When you are running a V-10 there is no link with your production car, while a small V-6 is a lot more representative. Of course, all this is a kick in Ferrari's jewels, they cater to exotic, multi-cylinder engines.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:35 pm 
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Its interesting to see the difference in point of view from fans of the show and fans of the development. Its sad that a lot of the former group don't understand that development can make for a good show too.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:36 pm 
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Maybe the FIA staff is getting free Red Bull?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:45 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
Its interesting to see the difference in point of view from fans of the show and fans of the development. Its sad that a lot of the former group don't understand that development can make for a good show too.

I second that!!

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:54 pm 
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dizlexik wrote:
I wish some people didn't recklessly jump into conclusions.



I wish people could spot humour.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:55 pm 
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Are they still going to implement the planned aero rules at a later date? Or have the FIA just scrapped them completely.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:28 pm 
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Well if the Renault racecar engineer interview is true then there will still be a dramatic loss in Dow force for 2014. Firstly the new engines won't produce enough exhaust gases to abuse for downforce. Also the cars will run intercoolers so a compromise will have to be made in terms of aero to duct air to this (it won't be in a side pod) so should still equal things out 2014.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:07 pm 
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They should have brought in ground effects to compensate for the reduction in downforce. Like what Indy has right now.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:11 am 
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Very disappointing news. The prospect of lower downforce mixed with the new turbo engines had me interested.

Then again, all the problems the sport had been suffering for years regarding overtaking and competitiveness were largely solved this year. It wasn't issues with the cars or the tracks that needed addressing but the nature of the tyres. It's something Pirelli don't have entirely correct, but I think the problems of the Bridgestone era are safely behind us.

Maybe the results this year have convinced the FIA it is the cheaper, easier, more sustainable solution.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:12 am 
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Heavier cars with less torque and power (but turbo boost added), and the same aero.

Well, the only thing that really bothers ME is the low wide wings that slice far too many tires. They should be able to see their own wings, it's also a safety concern: what if your wing just broke? It's best to know that as soon as possible, not after you've plowed into someone and taken off their head.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:28 am 
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Sucks for Mercedes, doesn't it? Sucks for any team other than McLaren and Red Bull actually. Blah. Good my interest in F1 has waned because Schumi re-retired anyway.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:20 am 
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I can't believe that people are waiting until 2014 raft of changes so that some team can knock Red Bull of their perch. Mclaren were very equal to Red Bull this season and should have easily beaten them if not for reliability issue and botched pit stops.

Let the rules remain. We had a fantastic season of close racing the entire season. The last thing we want is after the rule change one team develops a package that is 1 second faster than the rest of the guys. Now that will be a snooze fest of a season.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:09 am 
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Is this in some sort of 'readiness' for introduction of turbos in 2014? Just asking.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:24 am 
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I actually expect (except for the sound) the new turbo engines to be more competitve than the current ones.

IMO
I don't expect a great drop of the overall power of the new tubo-engines, compared to the "old" naturally aspirated ones.

Pros.: A lot better torque (and thus power) in the lower/mid rev range. Improved fuel consumption, which also means less fuel on board at the start of the race - lower amplitude in the lap times beginnig/end of the race.

Cons.: The turbo engine is presumably more expensive to produce, because it's got more parts. More parts also mean greater risk of failures. Intercoolers take space and compromise the aerodinamics.
Sound...


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:34 am 
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flyer wrote:
Heavier cars with less torque and power (but turbo boost added), and the same aero.

Well, the only thing that really bothers ME is the low wide wings that slice far too many tires. They should be able to see their own wings, it's also a safety concern: what if your wing just broke? It's best to know that as soon as possible, not after you've plowed into someone and taken off their head.

I don't think drivers ever seen their wing, nor they were ever looking on them. Do you look at the front of your car, even if you are able to see it? Only while parking I suppose.

These issues in F1 can be addressed by putting some sensors and visual or sound alerts when there is any danger. Drivers to see wings would need to sit much, much higher than they do now and as a result they would be exposed to other dangers (see Alonso Grosjean crash) or car would need ridiculously bigger wings.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:43 am 
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The Aero regs not changing isn't as big a deal as some people are making, the 2012 regs when combined with the new engine/ power regs will even up the cars massively.

The output of exhaust gasses from the new engines will be a hell of a lot less and will not be able to be used to provide rear stability for the car, which will impact the effectiveness of the rear diffuser.

The changing of the load tests will wrinkle out any defincincies in possible flexi wings and noses - so thats another area closed up

The restriction on using DRS around the whole track in qualifying to just those of the DRS zone will negate much of the difference between teams DRS efficiencies , so top speed becomes more valuable

No more DDRS

The added capacity of the Kers system means that teams who still havent mastered Kers will be even weaker

The New engines cant even be compared yet, their could be massive discrepancies between the outputs of the different models

God knows what tyres well get in 2014

People saying Mercedes will be gutted, I dont think they'll be that gutted, 2013 will see the teams close up a lot in the aero side. There wont be any major gains from what we currently have in that department with the tests tightening up, removal of DDRS, removal of DRS around the whole track. The team that will be licking its lips at both these years will be McLaren and Ferrari. The team that will feel the pinch will be Red Bull.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:01 pm 
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dizlexik wrote:
flyer wrote:
Heavier cars with less torque and power (but turbo boost added), and the same aero.

Well, the only thing that really bothers ME is the low wide wings that slice far too many tires. They should be able to see their own wings, it's also a safety concern: what if your wing just broke? It's best to know that as soon as possible, not after you've plowed into someone and taken off their head.

I don't think drivers ever seen their wing, nor they were ever looking on them. Do you look at the front of your car, even if you are able to see it? Only while parking I suppose.

These issues in F1 can be addressed by putting some sensors and visual or sound alerts when there is any danger. Drivers to see wings would need to sit much, much higher than they do now and as a result they would be exposed to other dangers (see Alonso Grosjean crash) or car would need ridiculously bigger wings.

They could always go back to the "tea tray" front wings. That way it's away from other peoples tires, and the driver can tell whether it's damaged or not.

http://flickriver.com/photos/mickb6265/2934714229/


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:06 pm 
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RaggedMan wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
flyer wrote:
Heavier cars with less torque and power (but turbo boost added), and the same aero.

Well, the only thing that really bothers ME is the low wide wings that slice far too many tires. They should be able to see their own wings, it's also a safety concern: what if your wing just broke? It's best to know that as soon as possible, not after you've plowed into someone and taken off their head.

I don't think drivers ever seen their wing, nor they were ever looking on them. Do you look at the front of your car, even if you are able to see it? Only while parking I suppose.

These issues in F1 can be addressed by putting some sensors and visual or sound alerts when there is any danger. Drivers to see wings would need to sit much, much higher than they do now and as a result they would be exposed to other dangers (see Alonso Grosjean crash) or car would need ridiculously bigger wings.

They could always go back to the "tea tray" front wings. That way it's away from other peoples tires, and the driver can tell whether it's damaged or not.

http://flickriver.com/photos/mickb6265/2934714229/

I vote for this. Stepped noses and tea trays, and bring back 6 wheels.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:39 pm 
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MclarenBullet wrote:
The FIA has no idea how much money/work teams have put in for the 2014 changes.

They are a complete and utter joke.

agreed.

make a decision and fucking stick to it!!

what a complete shambles.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:43 pm 
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Sutton wrote:
MclarenBullet wrote:
The FIA has no idea how much money/work teams have put in for the 2014 changes.

They are a complete and utter joke.

agreed.

make a decision and fucking stick to it!!

what a complete shambles.

The decision was agreed by team, at 70% of them...

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:51 pm 
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dizlexik wrote:
Sutton wrote:
MclarenBullet wrote:
The FIA has no idea how much money/work teams have put in for the 2014 changes.

They are a complete and utter joke.

agreed.

make a decision and fucking stick to it!!

what a complete shambles.

The decision was agreed by team, at 70% of them...


Really ?

oh well then. its their fault :D

interesting to see who voted which way.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:55 pm 
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Sutton wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
Sutton wrote:
MclarenBullet wrote:
The FIA has no idea how much money/work teams have put in for the 2014 changes.

They are a complete and utter joke.

agreed.

make a decision and fucking stick to it!!

what a complete shambles.

The decision was agreed by team, at 70% of them...


Really ?

oh well then. its their fault :D

interesting to see who voted which way.

I don't know who voted, maybe all. I don't know. But this is how I understand it. This is from FIA site.

Quote:
2014 F1 Technical Regulations

A new draft with numerous changes was discussed and agreed by the F1 Technical Working Group and Powertrain Working Group.


To make a decision within group 70% of votes are needed.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:36 pm 
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Don't think the FIA is some evil organization working to combat the teams all the time. They work very closely. It behooves both to keep each other mostly happy, most of the time.


Why does everyone want to see rules that even out the performance of cars? The whole point of the sport is the exact opposite of that. You can't rely on the rulemakers to give you exciting on track action - its up to the teams to develop consistently competitive cars. Complain about THEM instead.

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