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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:57 pm 
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Sorry if there's already a similar thread before. I just read

http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/ ... 14151.html

There will be two major changes to the 2013 sporting regulations. Firstly, from next season drivers will only be able to utilise the Drag Reduction System (DRS) overtaking aid within designated DRS zones during practice and qualifying. Previously drivers had been free to deploy the system as they pleased in these sessions.

This is what made RB8 stronger on Saturdays than on Sundays, that placed them ahead on the starting grid (aside from their drivers' qualifying specialty). This is what made them looked faster than they really were on race days, hence the claim that RB8 were "on par with MP4-27" and "much better than F2012". This is what made RB7 "the fastest car by a country mile" in 2011 although they were almost equal to MP4-26 on race days. (That's why I always said in this forum, it's the race pace that mattered, not the qualy's).

This is what has made up for their lack of engine power in qualifying. They won't have that advantage anymore next year :(


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:02 pm 
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Oh boo hoo. They'll get over it. They'll just have to use less downforce.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:08 pm 
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All technical analysis of their post-singapore setup says the advantage gained by blowing the middle of the lower element and/or the wing tips is pretty negligible. Nobody has really been able to say what for sure they were doing, so its tough to say what effect it will have. Their big step in performance is more likely due to rear suspension changes, and a better understanding of how dynamic ride height (and heave, pitch, roll) effects the tires. I'd say their "advantage" will be dependent on how the Pirellis will change for next year.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:30 pm 
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Everyone also said that with EDB. Take it away, and Red Bull would be nowhere. And now they have 3 WCCs... They'll probably figure something out.

But it's very likely they will have a harder time getting to the front in qualy next year(at least at the start of next year). Race pace will surely be as good as it has been this year. The banning of DDRS wont have much effect, but the change of DRS-usage could hurt them badly.

DDRS though, was the key to their much improved qualy from Singapore onwards.


Last edited by Herbalist on Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:31 pm 
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Well, they entered F1 just yesterday and are whining now but that has been going for decaces now.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:38 pm 
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Although till the end of this season I was rooting for Ferrari to win, next year I really want to root for RedBull. Now I want them to win the 4th. Can you imagine how difficult it is to keep coming up with radical ideas to get one up on the rivals. Adrian Newey and the team are nothing short of real geniuses. Seriously.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:45 pm 
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Race2win wrote:
Although till the end of this season I was rooting for Ferrari to win, next year I really want to root for RedBull.



Jumpin' on the bandwagon, huh?
;)

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:46 pm 
Everyone will be affected the same with the restrictions on the DRS.

But for the Red Bull fan, there's little to worry about. For a good part of the season Red Bull and Newey have been experimenting with ways to reduce drag at higher speeds. The original idea of stalling the wing came from the F-duct. then Mercedes designed a system designed to stall both front and rear wings on command. Although both of these specific devices are now banned, the concept will not die, it offers advantages not to be ignored. And since last year Lotus experimented with stalling the wing as a function of just forward speed, I expect a mish-mash of these concepts to show up on next year's cars. And really, who better to make it work than Newey and his band of industrious elves?


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:56 pm 
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Blake wrote:
Race2win wrote:
Although till the end of this season I was rooting for Ferrari to win, next year I really want to root for RedBull.



Jumpin' on the bandwagon, huh?
;)

I am excited to see what brilliant idea Newey will come up with next just to see the haters scream "CHEATER" on the main site. Its fun to read their silly comments

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:55 pm 
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I am pretty sure McLaren had as many poles as Red Bull and looked the faster car in qualy....


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:11 pm 
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I didn't think they had a quali advantage this year.
I think it changed from track to track.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:10 am 
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The rules keep moving to reduce RB car's strengths. I imagine 2014 will see a "Neweys" outlawed, along with "drinks company" participation. ;) Go RB!


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:17 am 
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Although being a biased Webber fan, I think it benefited Vettel more than it did Webber because he was good enough to open the DRS really early out of a lot of corners compared to Mark. Having said that, I doubt it's going to make that much of a difference in terms of qualifying pace. Something to look forward to I guess.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:23 am 
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Personally I'd rather see DRS enabled at all times, all sessions for all drivers.

It would still address the turbulent air problem, wouldn't give an 'unfair' advantage to any one driver and it would create the possibility of driver mistakes as they try to maximize usage of the device. So far I can only recall seeing Sutil have an issue with the device and that was in the very first race it was utilized in (oh, and Schumacher's mechanical failure) so I don't believe the safety issue is as big as some may believe.

As for Red Bull, I'm sure they'll think of something. Assuming the teams next year will be roughly the same, qualifying should be quite a show. With Hamilton out of McLaren but in a team that may be pole capable, RB losing a qualifying advantage and Massa seemingly getting his mojo back, the front row should hopefully see some tight competition.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:24 am 
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I felt this really helped Red Bull last year more than this year, but I've been wondering since early 2011 why the FIA allowed the use of DRS all over the track during qualifying. Nothing against Red Bull as they'll be competitive with the new rule regardless, but glad to see this one changed. Never felt it a safety issue other than in wet weather; just never made much sense to me.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:28 am 
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Fundamentally good car will remain good. RedBull had fundamentally good car in second half of this season. With nothing much changing, they are expected to have fundamentally good car. They will have issues at certain circuits. But not for the entire season.
With no aero regulation changes any time soon, the RedBull is the team which will have least headaches in that department.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:36 am 
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Adrian Newey disagrees

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:02 am 
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A better solution, of course, is to just get rid of DRS.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:05 am 
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Race2win wrote:
Although till the end of this season I was rooting for Ferrari to win, next year I really want to root for RedBull. Now I want them to win the 4th. Can you imagine how difficult it is to keep coming up with radical ideas to get one up on the rivals. Adrian Newey and the team are nothing short of real geniuses. Seriously.

the bulls will still be the ones to beat, at the beginning of next year. They knew all year, what the rules would be for next year. Se :smug: b is the man. No fear....let it rip....Newey is the designer


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:32 am 
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I would say the Red Bull car is no longer the best qualifier, they just have two very good drivers over one lap.

The McLaren over the course of 2012 was the stronger car on Saturday. Sunday too when it was running.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:52 am 
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We didn't have DRS in 2010. Seems to me that...


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:04 am 
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I personally don't reckon it'll be a particularly big issue. Hell, if anything it'll allow them to reduce the amount of consideration given to DRS generally as they're not going to plan on using it much on race day anyway.

If anything I can see it having more of an effect on McLaren as they seemed to have the qualifying rocket ship this year.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:25 am 
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http://www.f1zone.net/news/newey-a-litt ... ull/17110/


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:11 am 
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Newey would have figured 3 separate solutions and will probably have 2 more by the time the 2013 season starts.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:52 am 
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I thought McLaren got more pols this season, so how were RB in a quali advantage?

If someone had a quali advantage that was Mercedes, but meant nothing much in the race

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:11 pm 
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ferdinand wrote:
This is what has made up for their lack of engine power in qualifying. They won't have that advantage anymore next year :(


But is it as straightforward as that? The RB8, at least in Vettel's hands, was quite quick towards the end of the race and it is proven by how he pulled out several fastest and very fast laps. The Renault appears to lack engine power compared with the Mercedes & Ferrari but Newey might be able to make up for the disadvantage by tweaking the settings - less downforce and more top speed.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:18 pm 
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SchumieRules wrote:
I thought McLaren got more pols this season, so how were RB in a quali advantage?

If someone had a quali advantage that was Mercedes, but meant nothing much in the race

Without any advantage, RB wouldn't be able to steal the poles from McLaren at power tracks like Canada and USA for example, only to be beaten in the race distance. Their starting grid average of the whole season would've been lower too.

Mercedez were too poor to retain their positions, especially during the second half. They were one of top teams only until the first quarter of the season.

My point is, RB could open the DRS in many more places than other teams could in qualifying, and this has been the fact since last year. The more they could use the DRS, the more time they could gain by the extra speed. Next year they won't have this extra speed anymore.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:50 pm 
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ferdinand wrote:
My point is, RB could open the DRS in many more places than other teams could in qualifying, and this has been the fact since last year. The more they could use the DRS, the more time they could gain by the extra speed. Next year they won't have this extra speed anymore.


I am not challenging that statement but only asking because I do not recall reading anywhere that the RB8 drivers used DRS more than other teams to get their qualifying advantage. To me, it does not make sense because if RBR were doing it, why wouldn't other teams?

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:25 pm 
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Zekenwolf wrote:
ferdinand wrote:
My point is, RB could open the DRS in many more places than other teams could in qualifying, and this has been the fact since last year. The more they could use the DRS, the more time they could gain by the extra speed. Next year they won't have this extra speed anymore.


I am not challenging that statement but only asking because I do not recall reading anywhere that the RB8 drivers used DRS more than other teams to get their qualifying advantage. To me, it does not make sense because if RBR were doing it, why wouldn't other teams?


The thought is the RBRs have that much more downforce through the diffuser they could open it earlier on exit and open it on a few high speed corners. Where as the rest if they opened it the same would lose too much downforce and bin it.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:50 pm 
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Is either of Vettel or Webber leaving? If not, i don't think so!

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 2:42 pm 
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Leave it to Vettel and Newey to do the advantages. This combo is sick.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 2:45 pm 
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first race is 17th March.

im sure they'll cope.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:10 pm 
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I remember at the first race in '11 with the DRS. Red Bull were one of the teams wanting it to be DRS zones only in quali.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:49 pm 
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Red Bull design a very strong all-around chassis. Based on the current regulations, Vettel appears to prefer a car capable of qualifying towards the very front and pulling a gap immediately to nullify the use of DRS on him by others at the expense of a higher top speed. Since Red Bull have achieved that with great success they haven't strayed from that plan. If the regulations change to where it's more difficult for them to continue with the aforementioned strategy/setup, they'll simply find the strategy/setup that plays into their new-found strengths.

Their qualifying at the front strategy has been very successful but sometimes compromises race pace and it seems that Vettel would prefer to be in front and try to fight off faster cars than be the faster car trying to get by. It worked well in Monaco 2011 & Barcelona 2011, etc... but not so well in Canada 2012 & US 2012.


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