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 Post subject: Flavio on Schumy
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:42 am 
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http://www.auto123.com/en/racing-news/f ... tid=150624

Thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: Flavio on Schumy
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:47 am 
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Seems like a lot of moaning about something irrelevant. Vettel would've passed Schumi eventually, even if I didn't like the way MSC just pulled out of the way. Vettel had the pace and confident to get past.

Just sounds like it's everyone but Vettel won the title for him.

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 Post subject: Re: Flavio on Schumy
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:53 am 
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I can agree with the statement loosely

Its true that Michael wasn't in the same race as Sebastian and Alonso, but to simply let someone past (whom you are not ordered to for the benefit of your team mate) makes you look poor. We've also got to remember that this was for position also.

People will state that Vettel was 2 seconds faster or something on lap times and would of overtaken him anyway, this is true but he would of had to line up the overtake at the right part of the track and this could of taken him 1 or 2 laps or it could of been the very next corner no one knows.

I was disappointed with Michael because dependant on who is behind him he can be a real lovely individual to get past. I don't think Sebastian has experienced the full on schumi chop that some have.


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 Post subject: Re: Flavio on Schumy
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:57 am 
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I'm a little uncomfortable with what Schumi did but it didn't break the rules and any driver uiltimately has the right to do what they want in situations like this (just as you or I have the right to think less of them for doing it).

But to hear Briatore passing judgement on something like this is laughable. Not only is he so cartoonishly biased towards Alonso that his view means nothing, he's also been banned from the sport for cheating... and he oversaw and defended many of Schumi's most genuinely deplorable antics when both were at Benetton. Egotistical narcissistic hypocrite.

Considering the way Ferrari treated Schumi in 2006 I don't know why anyone's surprised by what he did in Brazil. As I said I didn't really like it, but I did liek the way he was able to stick two fingers up at Ferrari on his way out the door (even though I would have preferred an Alonso win).

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Last edited by Balibari on Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Flavio on Schumy
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:58 am 
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What's new? Flavio taking on Schumie?

A few days after Monti did?

While being linked to get to Ferrari?

You don't say....

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 Post subject: Re: Flavio on Schumy
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:37 am 
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I think he would replace stefano. Thoughts?


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 Post subject: Re: Flavio on Schumy
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:50 am 
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I don't think this reaction is a surprise. I think Briatore is still very pro Alonso. I really don't think Schumi wanted to take revenge on Ferrari but it was more of a question of respect to Vettel. Schumi clearly preferred Vettel to win the title that's for sure, but I don't think he cared what car Vettel was driving. So I don't think Briatore is right when he thinks that Schumi wanted Red Bull to win instead of Ferrari. Red Bull was already constructors champion anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Flavio on Schumy
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 11:10 am 
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It had nothing to do with Schumachers feelings on Ferrari.

Schumacher even stated post-race that he wanted Ferrari to win the WCC, but he preferred Vettel for WDC. To me that means he doesn't hold a grudge at all.


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 Post subject: Re: Flavio on Schumy
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:08 pm 
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Personally I wanted Schumacher to treat Vettel like any other driver on the track but I did see this coming when he was closing in on him so quickly. He would've overtaken him anyways but I think it was more him helping out a mate rather than out of spite for ferrari.


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 Post subject: Re: Flavio on Schumy
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:14 pm 
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Does anyone really care what Flavio has to say these days? Schumie is a 7 times WDC who understands totally about drivers not interferring with the hunt for the Championship. Since I can remember, drivers in slower cars have been making it reasonably easy for Championship contenders to pass them in the last races of the season. Mainly because they didn't want to be accused of doing something to change the results. Whether Schumie preferred one driver over the other to win the Championship, I think, didn't come into it. Now that the Championship is over, he probably feels comfortable in saying who he preferred to win the Championship as would, I think, all drivers if asked the question.


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 Post subject: Re: Flavio on Schumy
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:02 pm 
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mds wrote:
It had nothing to do with Schumachers feelings on Ferrari.

Schumacher even stated post-race that he wanted Ferrari to win the WCC, but he preferred Vettel for WDC. To me that means he doesn't hold a grudge at all.

At Ferrari there are dozens and dozens of people with whom Schumi worked very closely for over a decade. Famously during his time there it was like a family, he knew everything about everyone. He knew their wives, their kids, their hobbies, they went through thick and thin together and achieved amazing things, those bonds are hardcore. I can't believe he'd break all those hearts, whether or not he preferred a Vettel win. In addition to being close to Vettel he surely didn't want either Alonso or Ferrari, or both, to take the WDC, it doesn't add up that he did it just cos he's Vettel's mate.

What he say's is of no relevance, he'd hardly admit to a grudge.

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 Post subject: Re: Flavio on Schumy
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:05 pm 
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DrG wrote:
Does anyone really care what Flavio has to say these days? Schumie is a 7 times WDC who understands totally about drivers not interferring with the hunt for the Championship. Since I can remember, drivers in slower cars have been making it reasonably easy for Championship contenders to pass them in the last races of the season. Mainly because they didn't want to be accused of doing something to change the results. Whether Schumie preferred one driver over the other to win the Championship, I think, didn't come into it. Now that the Championship is over, he probably feels comfortable in saying who he preferred to win the Championship as would, I think, all drivers if asked the question.

Thats a good point, remember Narain in Austin? Blamed for Vettel losing, despite the fact Vettel got the DRS off backmarkers to defend with for a good few laps before being held up!

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 Post subject: Re: Flavio on Schumy
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:12 pm 
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Plenty of drivers, admittedly it is usually closer before they do it, just pull over because there is no point in both of them losing pace. Might as well lose the position straight off, rather than fight and crash or get put under threat by someone even further behind.

While I this case, I find it all a little dodgy, it happened and it almost certainly would have happened anyway. Briatore might also have some kind of vested interest in Alonso...


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 Post subject: Re: Flavio on Schumy
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:16 pm 
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What Schui did was pathetic, and I mean really really pathetic. But it's not against the rules, it was just absolutely pathetic. At least when Mark's doing it it's because his team tells him to and the STR guys don't want be sacked or get into trouble for racing Seb.

From my poor observations skills stemps my opinion that this forum is anti-Alonso (for the sacking of Kimi, I presume) and anti-Vettel (for stealing Lewis' thunder as the young prodigy, I presume) but there are few Vettel fans. I'd like to ask these guys (and some of the guys who can imagine themselves being Vet fans), what would you think of Jenson if he opted to pull over for Alonso?, just like that. Because they are friends. And what would you think of Alonso's title in that case? (and a more loose argument that it's very hard to relate/replicate but imagine Sauber was not that good but still managed to sneak into the top 10 from time to time. And if Alonso was behind their drivers they'll just let him through. Despite being able to somehow match him/defend from him in theory.)

PS: Did I mention I think what MSC did was pathetic?


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 Post subject: Re: Flavio on Schumy
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:22 pm 
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VDV23 wrote:
but there are few Vettel fans. I'd like to ask these guys (and some of the guys who can imagine themselves being Vet fans), what would you think of Jenson if he opted to pull over for Alonso?, just like that. Because they are friends. And what would you think of Alonso's title in that case?


Speaking for myself, my mind was made up before Brazil: Alonso would have been worthy of the title in any case. Should Button have let Alonso pass, it would have made no difference to me. And I mean that.
Just because I prefer Vettel to win it doesn't mean I can't admit Alonso had the better campaign this year. Vettel was good (he had some awesome drives in my opinion), but made a few errors.


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 Post subject: Re: Flavio on Schumy
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:24 pm 
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Balibari wrote:
What he say's is of no relevance, he'd hardly admit to a grudge.


Maybe he wouldn't admit it, but if he held a grudge I wouldn't expect him to explicitly say (without being asked) he wanted Ferrari to win the WCC this year. He would just remain silent about it.


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 Post subject: Re: Flavio on Schumy
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:25 pm 
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mds wrote:
VDV23 wrote:
but there are few Vettel fans. I'd like to ask these guys (and some of the guys who can imagine themselves being Vet fans), what would you think of Jenson if he opted to pull over for Alonso?, just like that. Because they are friends. And what would you think of Alonso's title in that case?


Speaking for myself, my mind was made up before Brazil: Alonso would have been worthy of the title in any case. Should Button have let Alonso pass, it would have made no difference to me. And I mean that.
Just because I prefer Vettel to win it doesn't mean I can't admit Alonso had the better campaign this year. Vettel was good (he had some awesome drives in my opinion), but made a few errors.


I agree with that overall feeling that Alonso had a better year (a bit of a simplistic view of the things but Seb had the better car (compared to the Ferrari) in what? 16 of the 20 races? and Alonso in the end was 3 points behind) but had Button pulled over...I'd just wouldn't be happy with a title like that. And I'm an Alonso fan, mind you.


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 Post subject: Re: Flavio on Schumy
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:34 pm 
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VDV23 wrote:
mds wrote:
VDV23 wrote:
but there are few Vettel fans. I'd like to ask these guys (and some of the guys who can imagine themselves being Vet fans), what would you think of Jenson if he opted to pull over for Alonso?, just like that. Because they are friends. And what would you think of Alonso's title in that case?


Speaking for myself, my mind was made up before Brazil: Alonso would have been worthy of the title in any case. Should Button have let Alonso pass, it would have made no difference to me. And I mean that.
Just because I prefer Vettel to win it doesn't mean I can't admit Alonso had the better campaign this year. Vettel was good (he had some awesome drives in my opinion), but made a few errors.


I agree with that overall feeling that Alonso had a better year (a bit of a simplistic view of the things but Seb had the better car (compared to the Ferrari) in what? 16 of the 20 races? and Alonso in the end was 3 points behind) but had Button pulled over...I'd just wouldn't be happy with a title like that. And I'm an Alonso fan, mind you.


But the circumstances matter too, no?
I mean, Vettel didn't need that place, he would no doubt have gotten it (Vettel was 2 seconds faster and he was overtaking just about everywhere as long as it was wet - which it was), and even if both conditions hadn't been true, Webber could still have had a "technical problem".

It would be different if, say, Schumacher was 20 seconds in front, Webber had crashed out, it was dry, they were lapping at about the same speed and Vettel absolutely needed that position to clinch the WDC.
If in such case Schumacher would have stamped on the brakes to let Vettel by, it would have tainted his WDC severely.


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 Post subject: Re: Flavio on Schumy
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:55 pm 
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Considering this is coming from a guy who asked one of his own drivers to crash into a concrete wall so his other car could win a race I'll take this with a pinch of salt.

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 Post subject: Re: Flavio on Schumy
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:39 pm 
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Everyone who's making a fuss about Schumacher is simply wishing that Schumacher would have taken Vettel out of the race because in the end it doesn't matter at all what Schumacher did, didn't do or should do. However if we want to argue about sportsmanship I doubt Briatore and Ferrari really have a leg to stand on. Yeah, as a sport fan I agree that ideally drivers should never give up positions easily but I also realize this isn't an ideal world and sport. Otherwise Massa wouldn't have to give up positions either and Sauber wouldn't ask Perez to basically stay put in second behind Alonso. I'm not saying the last examples justify Michael's actions; what I'm saying is that those actions and others don't justify Ferrari's, Briatore's and many fans' reactions over Schumacher's actions.

Honestly, I wish that position had turned crucial in the end and Schumacher took a WDC away from Alonso and Ferrari but it wasn't the case and anyway, I doubt Schumacher really gave any thought to them at the time. From Schumacher's old ties with Ferrari and friendship with Vettel I think all it was was Schumacher not wanting to be in Vettel's way to the third title and it didn't really matter who the challenger was, whether it was Alonso/Ferrari, Hamilton/Mercedes or Kimi/Lotus.

Talking of controversy I'm curios why no one picked up on the last paragraph:

"The only one who helped Ferrari was Webber," he added, referring to Vettel's Red Bull teammate Mark Webber, who is in Briatore's management stable.


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 Post subject: Re: Flavio on Schumy
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:11 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
Considering this is coming from a guy who asked one of his own drivers to crash into a concrete wall so his other car could win a race I'll take this with a pinch of salt.

:thumbup:

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 Post subject: Re: Flavio on Schumy
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:25 pm 
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Greg92 wrote:
Talking of controversy I'm curios why no one picked up on the last paragraph:

"The only one who helped Ferrari was Webber," he added, referring to Vettel's Red Bull teammate Mark Webber, who is in Briatore's management stable.

Yup, how on earth Schumacher helping Vettel isn't good, then at the same time Webber helping Ferrari and against his own team(mate) isn's an issue? Ah, yeah, it's OK to help your friend when you two are under the same management. Not that I believe Mark did something deliberately but Briatore's words won't do any good for Webber.


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 Post subject: Re: Flavio on Schumy
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:51 pm 
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jammin78 wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
Considering this is coming from a guy who asked one of his own drivers to crash into a concrete wall so his other car could win a race I'll take this with a pinch of salt.

:thumbup:

:nod: :thumbup: :thumbup:

VDV23 wrote:
what would you think of Jenson if he opted to pull over for Alonso?

Then Alonso would be gifted the championship.
In Vettel's case, he would still have been a champion even if he kept following Schumacher to the finish, nothing would change whatsoever.
Big difference, can't you see it?

Greg92 wrote:
Talking of controversy I'm curios why no one picked up on the last paragraph:

"The only one who helped Ferrari was Webber," he added, referring to Vettel's Red Bull teammate Mark Webber, who is in Briatore's management stable.

Yes, Greg, I wanted to quote it too, but you posted it first :)
Webber did help Ferrari, only once ever, which is at the start of the last race when he squeezed his team mate unnecessarily while opening the door wide for the Ferrari drivers, and at the restart after the SC. If Vettel did stop after the collision, Ferrari owed a championship to Webber, not sure how they'll ever pay it back to him.


Last edited by ferdinand on Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Flavio on Schumy
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:11 pm 
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In 2006 Schumacher was sacked by Ferrari bu not announced. I think it was a great revenge for Schumi.

He could finish at least 2 more years with Ferrari.


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 Post subject: Re: Flavio on Schumy
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:57 pm 
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Greg92 wrote:
Talking of controversy I'm curios why no one picked up on the last paragraph:

"The only one who helped Ferrari was Webber," he added, referring to Vettel's Red Bull teammate Mark Webber, who is in Briatore's management stable.

+1

Pretty sad that the only driver to help Ferrari is a Red Bull driver.

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 Post subject: Re: Flavio on Schumy
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:03 pm 
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VDV23 wrote:
What Schui did was pathetic, and I mean really really pathetic. But it's not against the rules, it was just absolutely pathetic. At least when Mark's doing it it's because his team tells him to and the STR guys don't want be sacked or get into trouble for racing Seb.

From my poor observations skills stemps my opinion that this forum is anti-Alonso (for the sacking of Kimi, I presume) and anti-Vettel (for stealing Lewis' thunder as the young prodigy, I presume) but there are few Vettel fans. I'd like to ask these guys (and some of the guys who can imagine themselves being Vet fans), what would you think of Jenson if he opted to pull over for Alonso?, just like that. Because they are friends. And what would you think of Alonso's title in that case? (and a more loose argument that it's very hard to relate/replicate but imagine Sauber was not that good but still managed to sneak into the top 10 from time to time. And if Alonso was behind their drivers they'll just let him through. Despite being able to somehow match him/defend from him in theory.)

PS: Did I mention I think what MSC did was pathetic?

So Schumacher is not only a compatriot, but also a good friend... He also acknowledges (unlike most people on this forum) the talent that Vettel is. About Schu not making it tough for Vettel... you merely have to go back to Spa. This time, he just perhaps knew it wasn't worth it, and let Vettel by.

I personally thought, he was passing the baton on to the next big thing, which if you're honest, Vettel is living up to be.

Alonso drove better than anyone... except last 3 odd races perhaps. He was head and shoulders better than anyone. However, he similarly lost his WDC in 2010 as well. May be, just may be, Alonso is pathetic in that he couldn't keep his knickers on and got mugged? Oh, by the by, i'm a proper red blooded tifoso.


Note: I'm being sarcastic... please don't take everything i said to your heart and flame... but if you must flame me, i will understand.

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 Post subject: Re: Flavio on Schumy
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:19 pm 
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I would've preferred Schumi to have put up more of a fight but honestly, given the circumstances, I have a hard time believing that even if he hadn't have simply let Seb through, he would've defended to the point of driving Seb off the road, or anything even close to that. Given it had no direct influence on the Championship (not until you start getting into 'what if...?' territory) it isn't really something that bothers me and, as various others have noted in this thread, Flav is hardly best positioned to be making such observations given his own history.

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 Post subject: Re: Flavio on Schumy
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:49 pm 
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Honestly, it really didn't matter to me whether Vettel or Alonso won the WDC, it was a great fight which is what I wanted.

But this part does bother me... for my personal standards, I don't believe you can crack the seal on Massa's engine in Austin.... AND then complain that Schumacher didn't put up enough fight in Brazil.... Ferrari can have 1, but not both IMO.

And at the same time when Ferrari is taking issue with Schumacher... perhaps... just perhaps... the manner of his departure from Ferrari left him not feeling he owed it to that team as Montezemolo seems to feel he's still obligated.

At least for me, the 2012 season is almost 2 weeks over, if there was a violation in Interlagos, file the protest, and get a ruling, but just to continue with the innuendo seems too easy and cheap IMO. And this, and adding this, it seems to me that such a great franchise as the Ferrari team is, it doesn't need to lower itself this way. The season is complete, and its time to move on for 2013, as I truly don't expect the complaints to change anything but make the team look bad to most other than its very loyal fans.


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 Post subject: Re: Flavio on Schumy
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:14 pm 
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What Michael did riuned Sebastian's magnificent overtaking numbers, now they can't be taken seriously because between the Toro Rossos, his team mate (sometimes) and Schumacher it results that Vettel received much too help :/


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 Post subject: Re: Flavio on Schumy
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:32 pm 
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Z3RoadstarTXF1 wrote:
Honestly, it really didn't matter to me whether Vettel or Alonso won the WDC, it was a great fight which is what I wanted.

But this part does bother me... for my personal standards, I don't believe you can crack the seal on Massa's engine in Austin.... AND then complain that Schumacher didn't put up enough fight in Brazil.... Ferrari can have 1, but not both IMO.

And at the same time when Ferrari is taking issue with Schumacher... perhaps... just perhaps... the manner of his departure from Ferrari left him not feeling he owed it to that team as Montezemolo seems to feel he's still obligated.

At least for me, the 2012 season is almost 2 weeks over, if there was a violation in Interlagos, file the protest, and get a ruling, but just to continue with the innuendo seems too easy and cheap IMO. And this, and adding this, it seems to me that such a great franchise as the Ferrari team is, it doesn't need to lower itself this way. The season is complete, and its time to move on for 2013, as I truly don't expect the complaints to change anything but make the team look bad to most other than its very loyal fans.


Very well said and I agree with every word of it.

For me, this is further compounded by the disgrace flavio brought upon f1 with his treatment of piquet as the sacrificial lamb for Alonso.

Alonso is a great driver without question but there're far too many antics surrounding him and his success which demands others be servants to his cause, it now appears whether team-mates or not.


Finally, in light of crashgate, flav's comments -with respect to mark webers "helping" Ferrari- ought to be investigated. Flav is a disgrace.


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 Post subject: Re: Flavio on Schumy
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 11:17 pm 
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You guys are ridiculous.

There was a clearly massive performance gap, there is no use deliberately trying to be an friend and block Vettel at every opportunity. If Schumi's car was competitive it would be a different story, but in Brasil it was far from competitive.

Butthurt Alonso fans need to get a grip, Ferrari didn't have the pace to hold off the RBR run to the flag and he got a lot of his points through consistency in the face of attrition ANYWAY.

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 Post subject: Re: Flavio on Schumy
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:14 am 
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darksides wrote:
You guys are ridiculous.

There was a clearly massive performance gap, there is no use deliberately trying to be an friend and block Vettel at every opportunity. If Schumi's car was competitive it would be a different story, but in Brasil it was far from competitive.

Butthurt Alonso fans need to get a grip, Ferrari didn't have the pace to hold off the RBR run to the flag and he got a lot of his points through consistency in the face of attrition ANYWAY.


End of thread.


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 Post subject: Re: Flavio on Schumy
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:37 am 
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That whole tirade is so full of hypocrisy that it's not worth discussing
Best part is when he openly congratulates WEBBER for helping Alonso. Can only imagine Mark's face when he reads that over his breakfast coffee. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Flavio on Schumy
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:59 am 
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He was drummed out of F1 and that is where he should remain... silent.


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 Post subject: Re: Flavio on Schumy
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:43 am 
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Laura23 wrote:
Considering this is coming from a guy who asked one of his own drivers to crash into a concrete wall so his other car could win a race I'll take this with a pinch of salt.
Asked? Asked???

Thong: Nelsinhno, I need you to stage a crash to help Alonso, if you don't your contract is terminated

Nelsinho: If I do that and the public find out I will forever be treated as scum

Thong: True, however, if you don't do it, you're out of F1, oh and by the way, I've decided that my management fee for your contract is going up 5%

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 Post subject: Re: Flavio on Schumy
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:05 am 
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Fat Albert wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
Considering this is coming from a guy who asked one of his own drivers to crash into a concrete wall so his other car could win a race I'll take this with a pinch of salt.
Asked? Asked???

Thong: Nelsinhno, I need you to stage a crash to help Alonso, if you don't your contract is terminated

Nelsinho: If I do that and the public find out I will forever be treated as scum

Thong: True, however, if you don't do it, you're out of F1, oh and by the way, I've decided that my management fee for your contract is going up 5%


Ordered.

And? Your point?

You actually make a case for Laura

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